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Orange Blooded [3590]
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Ghetto Communities’ Social Breakdown
May 5, 2015, 9:56 AM
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http://www.nationalreview.com/article/417899/inconvenient-truth-about-ghetto-communities-social-breakdown-thomas-sowell
The “legacy of slavery” argument is not just an excuse for inexcusable behavior in the ghettos. In a larger sense, it is an evasion of responsibility for the disastrous consequences of the prevailing social vision of our times, and the political policies based on that vision, over the past half century.
Anyone who is serious about evidence need only compare black communities as they evolved in the first 100 years after slavery with black communities as they evolved in the first 50 years after the explosive growth of the welfare state, beginning in the 1960s.
You would be hard-pressed to find as many ghetto riots prior to the 1960s as we have seen just in the past year, much less in the 50 years since a wave of such riots swept across the country in 1965.
We are told that such riots are a result of black poverty and white racism. But in fact — for those who still have some respect for facts — black poverty was far worse, and white racism was far worse, prior to 1960. But violent crime within black ghettos was far less.
Murder rates among black males were going down — repeat, down — during the much-lamented 1950s, while it went up after the much celebrated 1960s, reaching levels more than double what they had been before. Most black children were raised in two-parent families prior to the 1960s. But today the great majority of black children are raised in one-parent families.
Such trends are not unique to blacks, nor even to the United States. The welfare state has led to remarkably similar trends among the white underclass in England over the same period. Just read Life at the Bottom, by Theodore Dalrymple, a British physician who worked in a hospital in a white slum neighborhood.
You cannot take any people, of any color, and exempt them from the requirements of civilization — including work, behavioral standards, personal responsibility, and all the other basic things that the clever intelligentsia disdain — without ruinous consequences to them and to society at large. Non-judgmental subsidies of counterproductive lifestyles are treating people as if they were livestock, to be fed and tended by others in a welfare state — and yet expecting them to develop as human beings have developed when facing the challenges of life themselves.
Behavior matters and facts matter, more than the prevailing social visions or political empires built on those visions.
Clarity.
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CU Medallion [56063]
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Perhaps the explanation has to do with the Great Migration.
May 5, 2015, 10:39 AM
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During the second Great Migration from 1940 to 1970 lots of black folk moved from rural to urban communities, so it makes sense that "you would be hard-pressed to find as many ghetto riots prior to the 1960s." Interestingly they moved to cities in search of better economic opportunities.
Kinda funny that Thomas Sowell wants to consider himself amongst "those who still have some respect for facts." Obviously it's a puff piece meant to reinforce existing biases, but the condescending jabs reek of irony.
It's fun to imagine, though, that all the world's ills could be solved by simply cutting social welfare programs.
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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Then how do you explain a similar situation in England?***
May 5, 2015, 10:55 AM
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CU Medallion [56063]
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You're gonna have to elaborate.***
May 5, 2015, 11:02 AM
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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The author references a study in the article.***
May 5, 2015, 11:17 AM
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CU Medallion [56063]
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Apparently it's a book.
May 5, 2015, 11:30 AM
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Guess I'll have to read it and get back to you. My knowledge of the urban poor in England over the past century is admittedly limited.
Did you read the book? It would be a little weird if you challenged me to refute something that you yourself don't understand.
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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I understand it perfectly.***
May 5, 2015, 11:39 AM
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All-In [42144]
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That's not what he asked, brah.***
May 5, 2015, 11:40 AM
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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"It would be a little weird if you challenged me
May 5, 2015, 12:46 PM
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to refute something that you yourself don't understand."
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CU Medallion [56063]
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"Did you read the book?"***
May 5, 2015, 12:46 PM
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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No need for me to. I agree with the article. The author
May 5, 2015, 1:01 PM
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states the principles are the same, no matter who you are or where you are. The book reflects the article's author, which is why he cited it. I understand the principles, and agree with them. It is clear, however, that no one on this board has yet refuted the principles, choosing instead to attempt to deflect to the subject matter to something else entirely. But that is what liberals do when they cannot argue their case. By the way, the very same thing happened to the American Indian on reservations of dependency set up by our government. Same process, same results.
"Such trends are not unique to blacks, nor even to the United States. The welfare state has led to remarkably similar trends among the white underclass in England over the same period. Just read Life at the Bottom, by Theodore Dalrymple, a British physician who worked in a hospital in a white slum neighborhood.
You cannot take any people, of any color, and exempt them from the requirements of civilization — including work, behavioral standards, personal responsibility, and all the other basic things that the clever intelligentsia disdain — without ruinous consequences to them and to society at large."
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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No need to read the book
May 5, 2015, 1:16 PM
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The guy who is telling me what to think read it for me.
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Legend [15748]
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This is some serious deflection. If you don't want to
May 5, 2015, 1:20 PM
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engage in the debate, just don't respond. But most things referenced here have references to something else. To dismiss it just because he hasn't gone through all the material referenced in a short article is just laziness. This is a message board, for goodness' sake.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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He asks someone to explain
May 5, 2015, 1:23 PM
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A book he has read a 2 sentence summary on. Please explain how that is possible.
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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Where did I ask you to explain anything about the book?***
May 5, 2015, 1:25 PM
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Ok, quick question then
May 5, 2015, 1:34 PM
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Did generational poverty exist before the social welfare system?
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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As a scientist
May 5, 2015, 1:44 PM
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You can't say, this happened because of that unless their is a control. For instance, if he were to compare poverty before social welfare, and then compare poverty after social welfare, and that unbiased comparison showed that the poverty rate increased after social welfare was instituted, he would be on his way to a point. The book is just one mans opinion, and he is discussing it like it is fact, and asking people to explain it in those terms.
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All-In [42144]
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CU Medallion [56063]
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You're ok with someone challenging someone to
May 5, 2015, 1:59 PM
[ in reply to This is some serious deflection. If you don't want to ] |
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refute allegations made in a book neither of them read? That's preposterous.
Do you actually believe CDef has a firm grasp of urban poverty and policy in England? Or is he talking out of his ### and pointing to people who say things he thinks sound good?
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Legend [15748]
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"You're ok with someone challenging someone to refute
May 5, 2015, 2:37 PM
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allegations made in a book neither of them read?"
On a message board? Yuppers.
That is a convenient criteria to avoid a discussion, though. I'd wager to say that not a single one of us is an "expert" on the things discussed here, depending on the criteria. Therefore, no argument brought up here is valid.
Keep it up, buddy. You're typing your way right out of some finger cakes.
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CU Medallion [56063]
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Apparently I should lower the bar to "full ######."***
May 5, 2015, 4:19 PM
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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He doesn't seem to understand the difference
May 5, 2015, 4:28 PM
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between a "general issue" and a "specific book".
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Legend [15748]
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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**Sigh** The book is merely another version of
May 5, 2015, 1:24 PM
[ in reply to No need to read the book ] |
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the same process and results as described by the author in the link. No one is telling you what to think. Read the history, the data, and the results of these types of policies, and make your own decisions. This is just more information which you can accept, challenge, or ignore if you like. It really doesn't matter though, because as long as we maintain a dependency underclass of poverty in this country, the results will be the same.
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CU Medallion [56063]
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Who needs premises when you've got conclusions?
May 5, 2015, 1:45 PM
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"Read the history, the data, and the results of these types of policies, and make your own decisions."
YOU FIRST
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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LOL.... whatsamatter? Can't refute the author?***
May 5, 2015, 1:49 PM
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Yes I think he is wrong
May 5, 2015, 1:54 PM
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I think a physician working with the poor before the social welfare system would have the exact same stories but come to a completely different conclusion. This book you reference is nothing but one persons opinion, based on his personal experience. Forgive me if I don't consider that as irrefutable proof.
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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The data does not agree with your opinion. Let's go
May 5, 2015, 2:04 PM
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back to the 60's and look at the (Daniel Patrick) Moynihan Report.
"The work began in the most orthodox setting, the U.S. Department of Labor, to establish at some level of statistical conciseness what 'everyone knew': that economic conditions determine social conditions. Whereupon, it turned out that what everyone knew was evidently not so."
... Moynihan was employed at the U.S. Department of Labor. While analyzing various statistics concerning black poverty he noticed something unusual:[2] Rates of black male unemployment and welfare enrollment — instead of running parallel as they always had — started to diverge in 1962 ...
When Moynihan wrote, in 1965, on the coming destruction of the black family, the out-of-wedlock birthrate was 25 percent among blacks.
Moynihan generally concluded in the report: "The steady expansion of welfare programs can be taken as a measure of the steady disintegration of the Negro family structure over the past generation in the United States".
This is not new information. There is statistical data going back for decades.
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CU Medallion [56063]
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That doesn't say what you think it says.
May 5, 2015, 2:22 PM
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More black unemployment leads to more black people being on Welfare? That certainly adds up. What was Moynihan's conclusion, to do away with Welfare? Or was the real problem unemployment?
You're seeing an effect and citing it as the cause.
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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What I think it says is: "The steady expansion of welfare
May 5, 2015, 2:41 PM
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programs can be taken as a measure of the steady disintegration of the Negro family structure over the past generation in the United States".
And it has continued unabated for next 3 generations.
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CU Medallion [56063]
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He says Welfare is a measure of disintegration of families.
May 5, 2015, 3:13 PM
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Not the cause. He says the cause is rooted in the structure of black families and the history of slavery and Jim Crow, which is a whole nother thing. So no, the premise is not that ending Welfare would solve the problem of black poverty in America.
"Moynihan made a compelling contemporary argument for the provision of jobs, job programs, vocational training, and educational programs for the Black community." Per wikipedia.
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CU Medallion [56063]
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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Cool your jets & read my previous post about Moynihan.***
May 5, 2015, 2:05 PM
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All-TigerNet [12269]
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Re: You're gonna have to elaborate.***
May 6, 2015, 6:56 AM
[ in reply to You're gonna have to elaborate.*** ] |
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Hard to have time for gangs, drugs and SMLB when you are hustling to put food on the table. Also, popping kids that you cannot support is not a right and is controlable. The paternalistic view that these folks do not know how reproduction works is bs. The Dems pay all this to maintain a voting block. Hispanic workers at the low end work hard but they make good money and support themselves. If the welfare taking Americans would lower themselves to shut up and do the jobs, they could too. Drug testing for benefits? Why not? Most of you libs who pontificate on here have no clue how hard it is to hire a truck driver or equipment operator who will show up sober and work for 15-20 bucks per hour in counties in SC which have huge unemployment and few jobs. I would much rather pick watermelons and cutting wood than sit around watching TV smoking weed. There is no exuse for this other than vote buying by your commie busy body fake do-gooder phonies.
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CU Guru [1482]
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Re: Ghetto Communities’ Social Breakdown
May 5, 2015, 1:31 PM
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I stopped reading this sock puppet's screed about where he said one would be hard-pressed to find any ghetto riots prior to the 1960s.
Cincinnati's poor districts WERE a rolling race riot for most of 1830-1840.
How about the "Hard Scrabble" riots of the 1820s?
Gamecacks should know about the Five Points riot, around the same time (but in DC).
How about all the draft riots of the Civil War, where people who couldn't afford to pay their way out of the war rioted (I think the Baltimore slums endured a LOT of these)?
What about in reconstruction Memphis and New Orleans, when lord knows how many died in the rampages through black/poor neighborhoods? Geez, how about any poorer areas of the south post 1865 until 1870?
Syracuse fans: remember the Orange riots?
I'm not even thinking 20th century yet. . .not even Jim Crow era. . .
Speaking of, what about Atalanta in the early 1900s?
How about East St Louis around WWI? What about when that cop shot a black soldier in Harlem in WWII?
My point is not partisan. My point is that articles like those shared by the original poster for the sake of obvious politicking are often (perhaps always) flat out wrong.
And you know what they say about history. . .
PS: As a side note, did the original poster and others not have textbooks in high school? What would cause some to accept such an obviously errant "article" as valid?
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Well, that's like Uhm, just your opinion man***
May 5, 2015, 1:36 PM
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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The sock puppet did not say riots didn't happen, he said
May 5, 2015, 1:37 PM
[ in reply to Re: Ghetto Communities’ Social Breakdown ] |
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"You would be hard-pressed to find as many ghetto riots prior to the 1960s as we have seen just in the past year, much less in the 50 years since a wave of such riots swept across the country in 1965."
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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I counted more than 2 riots
May 5, 2015, 1:39 PM
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Doesn't seem like he was too hard pressed to find more than this year.
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