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Topic: From a Pharmacist...
Replies: 44   Last Post: Dec 27, 2018 2:39 PM by: Neal in NC®
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From a Pharmacist...

[22]
Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:03 AM
 

My dad is a licensed Pharmacist/professor of Pharmacology who has decades of experience and has written/published numerous articles about substances. He is very familiar with drug tests and percentages....Per Dex this morning, the Osterine showed up on the test at .02%. I texted my dad and he said that the percentage would've been much higher if he had taken actual supplements of Osterine. With that in mind, it's fairly safe to say that is must have came from something secondary. I know no one is really surprised but I just wanted to throw this out there. Hoping it gets straightened out but knowing the NCAA, there's not much room for interpretation.


I really think little Nicky Satan sent a spy

[1]
Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:05 AM
 

Into our midst to slip osterine mickeys into our players’ beverages.


Re: From a Pharmacist...

[2]
Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:06 AM
 

.0002 not .02 was the actual percentage

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Re: From a Pharmacist...

[8]
Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:10 AM
 

0.02% = 0.0002


Re: From a Pharmacist...


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:11 AM
 

The tweet below suggests it was .02% of the actual urine sample taken.

https://twitter.com/_Zach_Lentz/status/1078297681167036417


.02% would be a significant dose

[1]
Posted: Dec 27, 2018 12:49 PM
 

200 mg/L or 200 ppm, much more than a trace. I thought it was 0.2 ppb or 0.2 ug/L


Re: From a Pharmacist...


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 1:32 PM
 

Three players tested positive out of 15 that were tested. The three players that tested positive was the amount in their sample the same or at least within an acceptable range of each other? If so that would tell you either the testing is flawed or that something within the program that the players took was contaminated. OR the entire program is cheating and I very much doubt that.


Re: From a Pharmacist...

[1]
Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:12 AM
 

.0002 and .02% is the same thing.

Col. Shindler and Col. Stritzinger said so.


Re: From a Pharmacist...


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 11:16 AM
 

.0002=.02%=200 parts per million


Re: From a Pharmacist...


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 1:55 PM
 

Exactly I test water samples out the great Pee Dee river on a GC everyday. It’s very precise


Thanks.


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:07 AM
 

My grandson who holds a doctorate in pharmacy says pretty much the same.

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I'm an analytical chemist in pharmaceuticals

[3]
Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:10 AM
 

The issue is supplements. Supplements are held to the standards of something called the National Formulary, rather than the United States Pharmacoepia, which pharmaceuticals are held to. The NF has much broader assay and ID tests and very few impurity tests. Because of this, supplements can have upwards of 5% impurity, but so long as it is not considered toxic (heavy metals, known carcinogens, etc) it is fine for release. You really don't want to know what is in your supplements (or food, but that's another story for another day). There have been at least 3 recalls from companies who unwittingly added Osterine to products because their raw materials had the impurity and they were not required to test the purity.

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If it was in a supplement,


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:53 AM
 

and it has a short half life, and we know which players tested positive and which didn't - how have we not solved this mystery yet?

2019 student level member

Re: If it was in a supplement,


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 1:27 PM
 

24 hours is not a short haf life... #### that's in the range of methadone 24-36 hours depending on the person.


then it seems ridiculous NCAA would even measure to such


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 12:50 PM
 

a small percentage. Notify the school and move on if it is a trace amount

2019 white level member

Re: I'm an analytical chemist in pharmaceuticals


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 1:08 PM
 

https://www.menshealth.com/health/g19543623/food-contaminants/

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Re: From a Pharmacist...


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:10 AM
 

At that percentage, what advantage could this possibly give Dex?? I’m praying for a miracle boys


Re: From a Pharmacist...

[1]
Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:10 AM
 

Well at the pace they're moving, maybe the NCAA will clear him by July.

The NCAA is a joke, and this whole thing is absurd. I hate that this happened to Dex.


Re: From a Pharmacist...

[3]
Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:53 AM
 

The NCAA is not a joke; jokes are funny. The NCAA is a bunch of corrupt bassturds. (In my opinion)


Re: From a Pharmacist...


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 1:03 PM
 

Tare holes and pulk have done a ton of things lately and guess what ?


Re: From a Pharmacist...


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:11 AM
 

I look at the pod. The gal in the Triathlete failed because of some from of salts and the only thing I can think of that has changed over the past couple years is Clemson adding the pod that holds 12,000 pounds of salt. Obviously what some on here have said and through other outlets that the percentages lead a lot to believe it was soaked in through the skin.


Re: From a Pharmacist...


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 12:42 PM
 

Agreed but if the salt bath would have expected many many more players to have same result.

Do think this was accidental but not from the salt bath


Re: From a Pharmacist...


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 1:34 PM
 

No, actually your thinking is backward on that. The salt bath could be it because of the numerous variables involved in people getting contact amounts of it introduced into their system in such a manner, which is not a uniform exposure for numerous reasons, such as amount of ostarine not being standardized to any given level for bath products which are not reguated by FDA (so some scoops may have more or less of this substance in it), the amount of time (if any) certain players spent in this bath for varying reasons, the difference between transdermal absorption rates between different people are drastically different as opposed to medicine injected or taken orally, as well as the time it takes for people to metabolize this substance will be diffrent for each person given both the duration of exposure and concentration of the substance in said individual's bath.

In other words, there are many complicated variables that could make this scenario very likely the culprit and almost impossible to zero in on in a short time frame as it will take time to do testing on these salts, various batches and brands of it and so on.


Re: From a Pharmacist...

[1]
Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:12 AM
 

I believe Dex but his uphill battle will be that, even with them detecting trace amounts, that the NCAA will just claim he took the drug 4 or so days before the test so they caught the drug just as it was cycling out of his stystem. From my limited reading, Ostarine has a half life of 24 hours (which is long for the type of drug) which means in 4-5 days, it's essentially gone.

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Re: From a Pharmacist...

[2]
Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:32 AM
 

My cousin works with Zach Giella's (one of the 3 testing positive) mother who is the Lab Director at Trinity Hospital in Augusta, GA. She says that he is devastated. She says, "Please pray that the retest is negative." She said that they have no idea where this is coming from. He had random tests two months ago with nothing showing. .02 nanograms/ml... there are 1,000,000 nanograms in a mg. You might could get this much just walking by someone and breathe this much in.

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Re: From a Pharmacist...


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 12:56 PM
 

I’m a former lab tech and now service lab equipment...Trinity is one of my accounts.


Re: From a Pharmacist...


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 1:25 PM
 

Ahh, wow I was interested in that actually...if anyone knew the threshold they were testing at for the control level. Are you saying they consider a player positive for Ostarine if he only has .02 NANOGRAMS/MIL?? Seriously? I was thinking it was at worst case indicated at the microgram level given its extraordinarily long half life of 24 hours.

So how are they even reconciling this result with his previous clean tests in the month or two prior? Because if the threshold is .02 nanograms/ml....damn that's going to show up for months for this drug and should have been showing at even higher levels in tests done in the weeks and months prior if they actually took a real dose of it as a supplement.


Re: From a Pharmacist...

[1]
Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:36 AM
 

At a half life of 24 hours, the amount of substance left after 4 days is still 6.25% of whatever you took. That's not "gone" at all...it would still clearly register on a drug test. And you are right, that's what the NCAA will be considering, as they should.

Take "Clemson" and "Dex" and "Ostarine" and "NCAA" out of the conversation. If it was HGH that was caught in the test at a trace amount, that could clearly mean that the athlete was caught near the end of a doping cycle. It doesn't make him more innocent just because it's a trace...it's all timing.

Now, all that said, I am definitely of the opinion that this is all BS and Dex and crew did nothing wrong. But from the pure standpoint of why the athletes are drug tested, the fact that any of a banned substance was found has to trigger a suspension otherwise the drug testing is useless.

The bigger question should probably be whether or not the threshold for Ostraine should be raised so that trace amounts via contaminated supplements do not have such a large impact.


From an alcoholic

[2]
Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:15 AM
 

I hope y’all are right

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Re: From a Pharmacist...

[1]
Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:18 AM
 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23883284

The urine tests show a linearity of 0.999 with a standard deviation of ~20%. 0.0002 is outside of the testable range. How could they possibly employ a zero tolerance policy?

2019 student level member

nobody said there would be math.***

[2]
Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:52 AM
 



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Allonzo Trier (Arizona BBall player) won appeal with NCAA


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:21 AM
 

because he made the case that the amounts in his testing were accidental and due to supplements he took when recovering from injuries from a car wreck. The issue will be how fast will the NCAA respond.


FREE DEX

[4]
Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:22 AM
 

All 100.02% of him

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If there’s not a long term health problem


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:24 AM
 

With ostarine, then it shouldn’t be banned.

That should be the only criteria for which substances should be banned.

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Re: If there’s not a long term health problem


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 12:38 PM
 

Performance enhancement was the initial reason for all banned substances in athletics..... health problems were secondary. And while health problems are important, you often can't legislate saving people from themselves. You CAN legislate saving others from one's actions. "Saving" can be in the form of physical or competitive harm.


Re: If there’s not a long term health problem


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 12:47 PM
 

I guarantee you the massive calorie intake linemen have is more detrimental to their health than contaminant levels of ostaraine.


Re: If there’s not a long term health problem


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 1:20 PM
 

No question. My only points was that the reason for penalty is not health issues - it's the use of a drug for competitive advantage...... a.k.a. cheating.

This is the strangest drug test result I've heard and there should be some way to resolve this type of issue.


I appreciate a Pharmacist opinion but I'd like to see a...


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 10:56 AM
 

toxicologist tackle the issue. When folks go to court to prove their innocence against a faulty test or system standard the toxicologist is the best witness.

I would be very surprised if Clemson didn't know this.

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my head hurts


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 11:16 AM
 

i'm taking a nap


I believe he is wrong. I believe that your body gets rid

[1]
Posted: Dec 27, 2018 12:46 PM
 

of the substance continuously. You may be a 1% one day and 1/2% the next day and so on. So even if you have large amounts in your system, they won't just suddenly disappear to zero they will reduce as time goes on.

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Re: From a Pharmacist...


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 12:51 PM
 

Why does a 340 pound super athlete need to take a banned substance? The point is he DID NOT knowingly take it.


Re: From a Pharmacist...


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 1:49 PM
 

The obvious question is whether that trace percentage could have been what was left from taking something in the past - say in the summer. I would ask my pharmacist dad how long it can stay in the body.

2019 student level member

Clelin said that they are tested every month


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 2:00 PM
 

at Clemson. EVERYONE, not just random players.


That's probably why Dabo is doing this the way he is. He has the tests from all season on these 3 players.


Re: From a Pharmacist...


Posted: Dec 27, 2018 2:22 PM
 

I asked him and he said that since Ostarine has a half life of 24 hours, it would take about a week to be completely out of one's system. HTH


okay

[1]
Posted: Dec 27, 2018 2:38 PM
 

Day 1 - 64 parts per whatever
Day 1 - 6.4 parts per whatever (1/10 the amount taken the same day)

Day 2 - 32 parts
Day 2 - 3.2 parts

Day 3 - 16 parts
Day 3 - 1.6 parts

Day 4 - 8
Day 4 - .8

Day 5 - 4
Day 5 - .4

Day 6 - 2
Day 6 - .2

Day 7 - 1
Day 7 - .1

So if you take a lot of something, you still have more after day six left in your system than if you take a sliver and test only after 3 days.

Without out knowing the absolute minimum amount that will show up on a test you can not conclude how much was taken at a previous time and you can't ever conclude how much was taken to begin with.

There is no pharmacist worth two cents that can give results without knowing parameters

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