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All of this talk about socialism
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All of this talk about socialism


Feb 11, 2019, 10:30 AM

what main policy objective from the dems is being considered socialism?

Health care?

Moving towards carbon neutral?

How these policies are socialist I must be failing to see.

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I like your funny words magic man


Re: All of this talk about socialism


Feb 11, 2019, 11:11 AM

It would be the New Green Deal portion relating to free University tuition, quality housing for all, secure financial future by govt. for all that want jobs at specified wages. One could argure that health care would fall under that as well because to get it the tax rates would be extracted from those considered as having enough or specifically MORE than enough. Funny thing is there is not really a way to generate funding solely from that group to pay for even a portion of of that pipe dream goals.

Liberals ,especially Bernie point to the Norway model , yet fail to grasp they have a population roughly equal to SC and also possess the largest Sovereign Wealth Fund in the world at $1 trillion to help defray the costs for that population base.

In the EU they tax all incomes, they also use a VAT that ranges from 13% to 28% on all goods and services. Best is gas tax at the pump to get $6 a gallon gas. Beware those that tell you something is going to be provided for free, nothing is free. Tax liabilit when summed up in the EU comes to 63% of each unit of currency owed being taken. Bear in mind that even though there are wealth people here they alone cannot be taxed to pay for the New Green Deal.

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Re: All of this talk about socialism


Feb 11, 2019, 11:20 AM

Tigerdad1 you raise some good points, ideas that could be examined, modified or disregarded. I like the conversation and it should be had. There are different ways to work things. When roughly 4 people in the U.S. control more than 30% of total wealth you're going to have a dissatisfied population. Call it capitalism or grannies yellow slippers it doesn't matter. History has shown over and over that when you reach a certain percentage of 'have-not' then all hell can break loose.

What I don't like is people, not including yourself, who scream Socialism, Venezuela...etc where in fact, the state owns and controls everything. It's a red herring. No one supports it and it's only aim is to shut down conversations.

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Re: All of this talk about socialism


Feb 11, 2019, 11:14 AM

Just shows how many people have no clue what actual Socialism is. They're too lazy to look it up and would prefer to just quote Hannity who clearly doesn't know what it is.

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I failed at getting you to discuss the details of it....


Feb 11, 2019, 11:18 AM

previously:

https://www.tigernet.com/forum/message/That-actually-sounds-like-the-same-kind-of-mental-23862182

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Failed again I guess...wierd***


Feb 12, 2019, 3:50 AM



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Re: All of this talk about socialism


Feb 11, 2019, 4:47 PM [ in reply to Re: All of this talk about socialism ]

Felix,

Where people mistake in suggesting Venezeula as an example is to where it is currently. One must remember Hugo Chavez rode to office promising to make the lives of the poor and lower classes a lot better, it was not until roughly 5 years in to his 1st term that he started to Nationalize stuff and it was on a small scale. Around 2008 he went after the oil/gas sectors( really bad idea there) and ordered business to sell products at a price lower than cost to produce as a way to try to make it better for the poorer folks.

Current far left sound eerily similar in what they proclaim and that is why you get that comparasion. One cannot mandate wages( inflation will rise) just the same as one cannot command what something costs with zero regard to production costs. One cannot promise "free" stuff at every turn either as there is no free anywhere in the world for anything.

While no current DEM is actually advocating outright socialism one does wonder a bit where it ends up as plans fail, they always fail in trying to provide free stuff. That is the question that begs an answer in truth. We as a nation have never really been a pure capitalistic society, more a social capitalistic one in truth but there seems to be a call to move further to the left recently. Bernie is enthralled with the Norway model but he actually cannot make any number work here due to population base and other issues.

Be wary of offers of free, they sound great to the throngs of have nots but to the vast middle and upper classes those sounds are more akin to a vacuum cleaner coming for their wallets. When we reach a point where the majority of the voting population can vote in politicians that cater to their wants we are doomed. When I say middle class, not the govt. numbers for income as they are silly low in all cases.

We are living in interesting times that could change the entire fabric and socio-economic models of the USA in the coming decades. I will just say that by the time we do end up as Venezeula I will be dead and gone and gladly so i might add. Advances in IT, automation and robotics will render vast numbers of people useless as far as employment and with nothing being done to control said population there is nothing to be cheery about looking out on the horizon.People say a UBI but fail to say where that money will come from as there will be far too many on the dole to tax individuals and even the liberal CEO's have balked at increased taxation levels on the West Coast to pay for homeless agendas.

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Re: All of this talk about socialism


Feb 11, 2019, 6:27 PM

Tiger1dad I think you are on point. Caution is is the key. We've swung into an area that we're not used to and it make people fidgit. Somehow, billionaires now think they hold all the answers because their billionaires....Trump,Michael Bloomberg, Tom Steyer and now Howard Shultz. It's a scary time.

I look at it from a historical perspective. If you accumulate enough have-nots, then we're in for a terrible time. Political philosophy be dammed, if enough people think they're being taken advantage of or ignored there is going to be hell to pay.

65% or all bankruptcies in the U.S. are caused by medical bills. Healthcare exists outside the capitalist model...by legislation. That's just one of many areas that American's can see they are being hammered. Democrat, Republican...makes no difference, when you lose your home to save your child because a hospital corporation wants to make a neat profit, people are going to start to rebel.

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Re: All of this talk about socialism


Feb 12, 2019, 7:25 AM

Felix, interesting that you keep coming back to the have nots of society because that issue is not going away and will only get worse with the rise of IT,automation and robotics. Why is it interesting? Well, the root cause of most of the worlds problems when broken down to their core all reside with a simple premise of we have too many people.

Human based climate change? If it is human based then what is the root issue? Until that is acknowledged then all other "fixes" amount to a bandaid on a bullet wound. Wages? Too many people all vying for the same jobs, supply and demand says wages will not rise as Companies can fill their needs easily. Water/energy/food all the same reason. The New Green Deal proposes fixes at an enormous price tag yet says zip about really fixing the root causes .Interesting article says they will print money to pay for it, tell me where willynilly moeny printing has ever worked out well?

Currently people with means to properly raise kids are having less but those least likely to produce a productive member of society are having more. That is not a very smart nor desired outcome. Think Idiocracy . It is not even about obtaining "free" University degrees as over the course of my life I have met many an educated moron. I told my son that having a degree does not make one smart, it makes them educated in a subject and nothing more. Took him a while to figure out what I meant by that but has slowly come to agree.Also too many degrees have depresssed wages for the ones that hold them.

Our current issues are all related to population, maybe it will adjust as the Boomers die and statistic show Millennials are not having kids and may never. As much as Millennials like to complain about Boomers, they are now the largest demographic in the nation. Maybe they will have all the answers as they proclaim, I am not betting on it though.

One cannot have "Free" or Medicare for all with our population base withpout setting Doctors,nurses, lab techs etc. salaries. Setting a cost structure for what it will pay and by law not be allowed to charge a patient for overages. Also the fact is legal liabilities will also need to be capped for mistakes. One must also figure out what area gets the diagnostic equipment as it is expensive and will be less available under a social scheme. I have zero complaints with medical care here in the US, I see my doctors and any tests are run within days. That alll changes with social medicine , I know as I lived for years with that type of care while working overseas.I could go on in the free health care area but the whole premise is not gonna work out like promised for anyone.

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Re: All of this talk about socialism


Feb 12, 2019, 7:44 AM

I guess my main point on health care is you may not get that it would require it to be Nationalized and at 20% of GDP that is a huge sector of the economy under direct govt. control.

Many things would also vanish under a National system, one such service is air ambulance . There is not a provider that could stay in business under a payment scheme from the govt. as at roughly $4k remimbursment one cannot provide a $5m helicopter, 4 pilots,1 mechanic and 5-6 flight nurses/paramedics required to operate 24/7 365 days a year.

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Re: All of this talk about socialism


Feb 12, 2019, 9:01 AM

You just made all those numbers up. Why would 4k be the number? Why wouldn't coinsurance cover some? Why wouldn't the patient pay overages just like they do now?

Your post was nonsense.

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Re: All of this talk about socialism


Feb 14, 2019, 8:38 AM

CU17 said:

You just made all those numbers up. Why would 4k be the number? Why wouldn't coinsurance cover some? Why wouldn't the patient pay overages just like they do now?

Your post was nonsense.




No CU17 you are just ignorant, that is what the govt. reimburses air ambulance providers. Insurance, skippy that will go away with Universal health care as only the very well off will be able to afford it in addition to the onerous tax burdens they will pay for that "free" stuff. Guess youy do not read much either as there is a huge outcrying over the costs now and what patients are billed . Now please educate yourself or shut up as you are palinly too stupid to respongd to most topics.

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US-led 'sanctions' against Venezuelan oil are their primary


Feb 13, 2019, 9:33 PM [ in reply to Re: All of this talk about socialism ]

trouble. They refused IMF overtures and got the blackball... Happens all the time in South America, though most have conceded. Skip the facts, though...

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Isn't it the folks on the left embracing so called...


Feb 11, 2019, 11:15 AM

Democratic Socialism?

I don't think there is any real difference between the concept of socialism and democratic socialism is regards to what these self-described folks want to change.

What I find interesting is their defense of the term is that we already have "socialistic" aspects of our government, like police, fire dept, medicare, etc... and that they just support stuff like that. But then they taught themselves as change agents. It's what they want to change that is alarming, IMO.

Mainly the issues of wealth redistribution, common ownership of companies, etc... They dress the issues up nicely, but the devil is in the details, as it almost always is with these types of discussions.

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You conveniently left out the military et al which is a


Feb 13, 2019, 9:45 PM

major component of our budget and the primary contributor to our deficit... all since 9/11 and the 'security state'. K street capers...

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Re: All of this talk about socialism


Feb 12, 2019, 7:27 AM

I'm not sure there is much socialism in the USA, certainly not in a way that would be recognised as such by Socialist parties/politicians in other countries. By European standards, even the Democrats would be considerd to be Liberals occupying the central ground.

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Re: All of this talk about socialism


Feb 12, 2019, 7:49 AM

Nick, you also do not get the taxation rates the EU applies to their citizens either. All pay income based taxes, a VAT of 13%-28% on all goods and services purchased and a gas tax of roughly $3.75 USD per gallon bringing it to $6 USD per gallon. Right at 63% of each unit of currency earned is taken in some form of tax or fee. Does that sound fun? It is what the Dems will require to pay for Universal Health care, free tuition, quality housing for all and financial security for all.

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Re: All of this talk about socialism


Feb 14, 2019, 9:53 AM

Read George Orwell's book titled 1984.

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