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YOUR BALANCE
Conservatives do not seem to understand that this country
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Conservatives do not seem to understand that this country


Mar 20, 2019, 8:39 AM

was not founded on biblical principles. In fact most of the founding fathers were agnostics. If you are someone who thinks the Bible should have any effect on our laws or even votes for a candidate based on whether their views line up with its teaching you are going against the constitution.

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actually this country was founded on religious and economic freedom


Mar 20, 2019, 8:44 AM

when you look at the reasons people risked their lives to come here and why we fought for our country's freedom.. It is just that the people smart enough to frame our constitutions knew that religion was a bunch of nonsensical BS and did not want it playing a hand in how we govern ourselves. That is where some people get confused.





.

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There's a thing called google- search pilgrims and mayflower


Mar 20, 2019, 8:48 AM

https://www.themayflowersociety.org/the-pilgrims/pilgrim-history

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"something in these hills..." -joe sherman


I wasn't even going to proffer a response.


Mar 20, 2019, 8:51 AM

Still won't. Pointless really.

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Your post is the opposite of correct.


Mar 20, 2019, 9:12 AM

Our Constitution states with great clarity that the Bible can have an effect on our laws and our votes. So can any other book of religion, as the voters and leaders see fit as individuals.

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What the Consitution does prohibit is our


Mar 20, 2019, 9:13 AM

laws affecting our Bibles, and our religious practices.

So it's the other way around from what you said.

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Re: Your post is the opposite of correct.


Mar 20, 2019, 9:52 AM [ in reply to Your post is the opposite of correct. ]

How exactly can you establish laws based on biblical principals and still maintain personal liberty for everyone?

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Because nothing in the Bible contradicts personal liberty***


Mar 20, 2019, 9:54 AM



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Re: Because nothing in the Bible contradicts personal liberty***


Mar 20, 2019, 10:01 AM

What about when someone says “people should be free to marry whoever they want”.

And conservatives say “no, the Bible defines marriage as between a man and a woman”?

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Everyone is free to marry whomever they want...


Mar 20, 2019, 10:06 AM

(As long as the other person consents...that's the personal liberty part)

Marriage is between a man and a woman; that's what a marriage is. Saying I'm going to marry a man is like saying I'm going to eat the color purple. That's not what eating is.

Anyways, in this country, people of the same gender have always been allowed to enter into personal agreements to commit to each other, but now the government has decided to allow them tax breaks for it. It's not marriage, though. And it's not a big deal to me.

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Re: Everyone is free to marry whomever they want...


Mar 20, 2019, 10:35 AM

But it does seem to be one of the major issues conservatives are “fighting” against.

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I'm not going to speak for what other people


Mar 20, 2019, 10:40 AM

fight about...I was just answering your question about personal liberty from a Biblical perspective.

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I want it to be a state issue. It should be a state issue.


Mar 20, 2019, 10:51 AM [ in reply to Re: Everyone is free to marry whomever they want... ]

I'm happy letting my state set whatever law they want for marriage. And California can do whatever they want. I'm happy, San Francisco is happy, and there's nothing to argue about in the internet.

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Here's the rub. Equality. It is essentially our secular


Mar 20, 2019, 10:49 AM [ in reply to Everyone is free to marry whomever they want... ]

religion in the US. A lot of people apply this to our Constitution when it was actually codified in the Declaration of Independence with "All men are created equal". That doesn't mean all men ARE equal, but they were created with an equal right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (FREEDOM). Still, that doesn't mean all men are equal, nor should all men be treated equal.

After the Civil War, those words of Jefferson from the Declaration were codified into the Constitution with the 14th Amendment, ostensibly to prevent another Civil War. It was also a huge cog in Constitution which essentially nullified the 10th Amendment. Equality is a Utopian ideal that simply does not exist in nature. It's not our natural state as humans. As such, for equality to exist, it must be coerced at the expense of freedom. Freedom allows for inequality. In fact, it thrives on it. You can see it in the sport of football, or most any sport. Players are not all equal in their abilities on the field. Not all students are equal in their abilities in the classroom. Not all states have equal and identical interests.

So you get conflicts when trying to enforce equality across a vast and diverse nation as we have. If you're a Southern Baptist and refuse to bake a cake for a gay wedding because you believe homosexuality is a sin, you are punished and sued. If you are a Muslim and refuse to bake the same cake for the same reason, there are no consequences.

The whole reason we have states, an electoral college, and a Senate, among many other things, is to allow the unequal application of the laws. That's why we are a republic and not a democracy. If we function as a democracy, with equal application of the laws across all 50 states, first you have the tyranny of the majority at play (and the subsequent abuses of power - See French Revolution), but you also have a situation where you are guaranteed to have unhappy citizens. Take abortion. It should be a state issue. It was framed as an equality issue to make it a "right". Then it was forced on all 50 states, instantly making 50% of Americans unhappy about it. Keep it a state issue, and you have most Americans content as they deal with that issue locally in their own state. Abortion would undoubtedly be illegal in SC and legal in California. That way Californians and South Carolinians are happy. This is how a republic works, and how our founders set things up to maximize contentment in a vastly diverse nation of unequal people with unequal interests.

But with codified and forced equality of the laws at the federal level, you can not have freedom of religion. You can't have freedom of employment. Heck, employment and companies deal with inequality all the time. Not all employees are equal. Some can't do the tasks needed and are fired.

States have the right (originally) to handle marriage as they see fit. If a man wants to marry a cat in California, sobeit. If a man wants to marry a man in SC, he can't. Even then, SC recognizes Common Law and as such same-sex unions, etc. have always had the same legal rights as a married couple long before the US Supreme Court forced the 46 Probate Courts in SC to allow same-sex marriages. Irony was not lost on the fact that the main hurdle for gay couples in SC was not state issues because they enjoyed common law status, but the FEDERAL laws which defined marriage yet ignore common law status for benefits. Instead of changing those laws for federal benefits, they forced the states to all comply.

But at the end of the day, equality is not a natural state among peoples, governments, religions, or football players. It is the number one carrot used to destroy freedom in world history. Equality MUST be coerced and forced to exist among humans, and that can only be done at the expense of freedom. Our Constitution was designed to allow for religion to flourish by excluding it from government. THAT IS ALL. The whole mindset was to keep religion out of government because our founding fathers were escaping a government with an official, designated, mandated, legal religion of the State. Freedom of religion actually embraces the inequality OF those religions and allows freedom to flourish. You could make a religious argument for almost every local law we have on the books in SC, or even at the federal level. As such, religion still has a huge impact on our laws. If you don't believe that spend a month in a Muslim nation and you will see how big the impact really is.

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See, you've just run yourself into a circle.


Mar 20, 2019, 2:52 PM [ in reply to Everyone is free to marry whomever they want... ]

"Because nothing in the Bible contradicts personal liberty."

When challenged on how, throughout almost our entire nation's history, same sex marriage has been outlawed based on Biblical beliefs, you reply:

"Marriage is between a man and a woman."

You cite the Bible to define how our government should dictate the concept of marriage, and that in itself contradicts personal liberty.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Where did I say the government should dictate what


Mar 20, 2019, 8:55 PM

marriage is? I actually believe the opposite of that, that our government does not have any business saying what marriage is.

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Re: Where did I say the government should dictate what


Mar 20, 2019, 9:49 PM

Anyways, in this country, people of the same gender have always been allowed to enter into personal agreements to commit to each other, but now the government has decided to allow them tax breaks for it. It's not marriage, though.

But the government now says it is marriage. You are arguing it isn't based on the Bible. My point is that your argument has been used throughout most of our nation's history to prevent same sex couples from getting married.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


I'm not responsible for what other people have argued.***


Mar 20, 2019, 10:17 PM



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Our government should have nothing to do with marriage.***


Mar 22, 2019, 9:02 PM [ in reply to See, you've just run yourself into a circle. ]



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Re: See, you've just run yourself into a circle.


Mar 25, 2019, 12:54 PM [ in reply to See, you've just run yourself into a circle. ]

Ok, than according to you marriage could be between a man and a 2 yr old or a dog. What a bunch of fools you are

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Prod, you're a smart guy, but that example was awful.


Mar 20, 2019, 3:17 PM [ in reply to Everyone is free to marry whomever they want... ]

The example should be, "the bible defines eating fruit as eating pears. Bananas are fruits, but if I eat one, it's not considered eating a fruit because that's not what the bible defines as fruit."

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Thank you for the compliment...


Mar 20, 2019, 5:52 PM

Just trying to put the truth about marriage into simple language. I'm sure I do a poor job of that most of the time.

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Re: Everyone is free to marry whomever they want...


Mar 25, 2019, 12:51 PM [ in reply to Everyone is free to marry whomever they want... ]

Well said. Do as you want but it is still not a marriage

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Eh... bro.***


Mar 20, 2019, 2:40 PM [ in reply to Because nothing in the Bible contradicts personal liberty*** ]



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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


What specific lines are you referring to?


Mar 20, 2019, 2:41 PM [ in reply to Your post is the opposite of correct. ]

I argue the First Amendment is pretty clear this is not the case.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


First Amendment guarantees my right to


Mar 20, 2019, 4:18 PM

exercise my religion in all aspects of my life, including the ballot box. If I got elected to the Senate, I'd have free exercise of my religion in how I voted for bills.

The First Amendment doesn't limit me...it limits Congress.

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It certainly cannot limit you or your voting.


Mar 20, 2019, 4:41 PM

But you are incorrect in your original post that it can affect our laws. A majority of Christians voting something into law based upon the Bible has, can, and should be struck down. Our government is set up to prevent such mob rule, and the First Amendment thankfully prevents such laws from occurring. That's not to say it hasn't happened or still doesn't happen, but given time, the language of the First Amendment shall prevail in that regard.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


I'm sorry, I just believe what you just said is


Mar 20, 2019, 4:49 PM

obviously and completely wrong. The First Amendment says that Congress can make no law concerning the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

It does not say anything about what I can't do, up to and including exercising my religion in how I form laws, if I were a member Congress. I would NOT be able to exercise my religion to pass a law that prohibits someone else from exercising their religion. That would be against the law.

But you better bet I can exercise my religion to write bills and vote for bills based on what the Bible says is good and bad. If I were voting for a bill to allow the murder of disabled children, I would vote NO, and it would be based on the Bible, 100%. I am free to allow the Bible to influence that law.

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Re: I'm sorry, I just believe what you just said is


Mar 20, 2019, 5:15 PM

So you don’t believe in freedom of religion then.

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Obviously, because of all the posts I made


Mar 20, 2019, 5:23 PM

saying how I don't think people should be able to exercise their religion....


Are you reading my posts? I said the exact opposite, multiple times.

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Re: Obviously, because of all the posts I made


Mar 20, 2019, 5:28 PM

Of course you say that, but your actions, or the actions you say you would make if you were in a position to pass/vote for laws says different....

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Which action that I have posted about


Mar 20, 2019, 5:31 PM

would limit the freedom of which religion?

The only specific thing I have said about my hypothetical time in Congress is that I would vote "NO" for killing disabled children. Is killing disabled children a religion that you believe should be protected by the First Amendment?

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Re: It certainly cannot limit you or your voting.


Mar 25, 2019, 12:57 PM [ in reply to It certainly cannot limit you or your voting. ]

So "thou shall not kill"

We should not have a law against murder

Bafoons

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Re: First Amendment guarantees my right to


Mar 25, 2019, 6:36 PM [ in reply to First Amendment guarantees my right to ]


exercise my religion in all aspects of my life, including the ballot box. If I got elected to the Senate, I'd have free exercise of my religion in how I voted for bills.

The First Amendment doesn't limit me...it limits Congress.


Absolutely correct

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Re: Your post is the opposite of correct.


Mar 21, 2019, 1:04 PM [ in reply to Your post is the opposite of correct. ]

Show me where in the Constitution that a religious text can be the basis for our laws.

I'll wait.


And no, the bible very clearly does not advocate for individual liberty.

Off the top of my head, I can think of Paul telling people that God wants women to always cover their heads.

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Is this tigerboy98?


Mar 20, 2019, 9:15 AM

tigerboy98

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Also, even if it were true that the founders were agnostics


Mar 20, 2019, 9:19 AM

doesn't mean that the country wasn't founded on Biblical principles. Agnostics have a lot of Biblical principles...they probably just don't know that they are from the Bible. For example, treating other people how you want to be treated is a Biblical principle. Personal liberty is a Biblical principle. Kind speech is a Biblical principle. I could go on and on.

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Don't feed the trolls.***


Mar 20, 2019, 9:39 AM



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I don't think he's trolling...I think he sincerely believes


Mar 20, 2019, 9:50 AM

what he typed.

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We have almost 6,000 years of recorded history.


Mar 20, 2019, 9:50 AM [ in reply to Also, even if it were true that the founders were agnostics ]

Do you think the concept of "treat others how you want to be treated" was invented roughly 2,000 years ago when the Bible was written? Before that, it was chaos and destruction and neighbors killing neighbors because they didn't know any better? There are a lot of common sense "rules" that the Bible (and the other major Abrahamic religion) lay claim to. I just think it's weird to genuinely believe that common sense didn't exist until Christianity came along.

"Thou shalt not steal." No kiddin'. Hammurabi said that almost 2,000 years before Christ was born.

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Saying something is a Biblical principle is not the same


Mar 20, 2019, 9:53 AM

thing as saying the Bible was the first place something was ever written down. I did not claim the latter.

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"Biblical Principle" implies ownership, i.e.,


Mar 20, 2019, 9:57 AM

the source of said principle. Is this the timeline?

Common sense exists.
Common sense is juxtaposed into actual laws.
Several hundred to several thousand years later, Bible incorporates principles based on pre-existing common sense and common sense laws.
Several thousand years later, a country on the other side of the earth incorporates pre-existing common sense laws into its articles of incorporation.

SEE?! FOUNDED ON BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES.

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You forgot #1 on the timeline


Mar 20, 2019, 10:00 AM

1. God was/is

Ol' Hammurabi wrote some good stuff down...but it's God that put that good stuff in his mind. You call it "common sense". Who do you think put that "common sense" into man?

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I mean....


Mar 20, 2019, 10:04 AM

ok, I guess.

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I'd encourage you to think about it...


Mar 20, 2019, 10:08 AM

This "common sense" you are referring to...do you believe it is genetic? Somewhere in the DNA is the "common sense"? I'm not expecting you come up with some grand answer...but it's an interesting thing to think about.

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If you subscribe to the theory that God invented, quite


Mar 20, 2019, 10:22 AM

literally, EVERYTHING, as you do, then it takes pretty much all of the fun and point out of a debate. You're just playing a trump card, hitting a reset button. All I have to go on is when God's ideas were documented, i.e., in the Bible.

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I understand. I'd say I'm not really interested in


Mar 20, 2019, 10:27 AM

"debating," anyway, in terms of trying to convince someone of anything. I'm just typing my thoughts, and reading other peoples' as they offer them.

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Re: You forgot #1 on the timeline


Mar 20, 2019, 10:33 AM [ in reply to You forgot #1 on the timeline ]

This is some interesting logic.

Sad but interesting.

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"Smelley, Garcia, and Beecher are going to lead you to 4-8." - york_tiger


You're gonna be so pissed when you die one day and


Mar 20, 2019, 3:53 PM [ in reply to You forgot #1 on the timeline ]

don't wake up to find out you were wrong.

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How does it feel to be the Genesis of the name, Vomitfest?


Mar 20, 2019, 10:10 AM [ in reply to We have almost 6,000 years of recorded history. ]

And how does it feel to go home and beatoff to the chicks that attend?

-Doc

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I've been wrong two times, but this isn't one of them.


Uhh...what?


Mar 20, 2019, 10:16 AM

I didn't actually attend the first Vomitfest, nor was I the first to hurl at said event, nor did I plant my forehead on asphalt at Vomitfest I, but I appreciate the credits.

I'd encourage you to attend this year. Only 2 and a half weeks away. You're not...scared, are you?

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everybody knows it was obed***


Mar 20, 2019, 11:30 AM



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We just witnessed you totally punk


Mar 20, 2019, 9:03 PM [ in reply to Uhh...what? ]

Dr. Nikola Tesla Tesla. You straight up gave him a chance to meet you face to face and he backed down like thepussy that he is.

Save this thread!

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Why Dr Nikola Tesla. You look like someone just


Mar 20, 2019, 11:15 PM [ in reply to Uhh...what? ]

walked right over your grave...

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Bad bot***


Mar 21, 2019, 9:40 AM [ in reply to How does it feel to be the Genesis of the name, Vomitfest? ]



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Re: Also, even if it were true that the founders were agnostics


Mar 20, 2019, 2:58 PM [ in reply to Also, even if it were true that the founders were agnostics ]

For example, treating other people how you want to be treated is a Biblical principle. Personal liberty is a Biblical principle. Kind speech is a Biblical principle. I could go on and on.

The Golden Rule doesn't really appear in the Constitution. We were also founded upon the idea that slavery was still okay and women lacked several rights. Thus, we cannot argue that we championed personal liberty, and some of that oppression could be linked to the Bible with how women were supposed to be treated and advocating obedience through servitude.

Finally, it isn't just kind speech our Constitution protects. It also protects blasphemy, which under a Biblical government (if we adhere to what the Bible says) would make it a crime. Thus, no personal liberty there.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


You're arguing against things I never said.


Mar 20, 2019, 4:23 PM

I didn't say the "Golden Rule" appeared in the Constitution. I used it to show that many agnostics have Biblical principles (at least agnostics who like the "golden rule"), whether they care to admit it or not.

I also didn't say the Constitution vouched personal liberty. Again, I used it as an example of a Biblical principle that I'd like to think many agnostics hold.

Also, I never argued for a "Biblical government" or claimed we had one.

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I'd like to state for the record that I believe


Mar 20, 2019, 4:26 PM

that this country was founded on some Biblical principles, and also on some principles that aren't Biblical. I believe most of the founders were not Christian.

I'm not in the "THIS IS A CHRISTIAN NATION, BY GAWD" camp.

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Are you not maintaining...


Mar 20, 2019, 4:34 PM [ in reply to You're arguing against things I never said. ]

...that our structure and basis of government in the Constitution was founded on the Bible and Biblical principles?

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


No.***


Mar 20, 2019, 4:36 PM



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Re: Are you not maintaining...


Mar 20, 2019, 5:18 PM [ in reply to Are you not maintaining... ]

No he’s just saying if he was a member of Congress he’d vote that way. Lol.

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No lol! That's exactly right!***


Mar 20, 2019, 5:29 PM



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Re: No lol! That's exactly right!***


Mar 20, 2019, 5:36 PM

So you believe in religious freedom, but you would enforce laws on citizens based on your religious beliefs?

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Of course, and so would a good, Muslim, Hindu,


Mar 20, 2019, 5:42 PM

Catholic, Mormon, Jew, Atheist, or Agnostic.

All of us religious folks just can't try to make or enforce laws that infringe someone else's religious freedom.

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Are you espousing that I should leave my religion


Mar 20, 2019, 5:47 PM

at the door, when I walk into Congress? In those halls, I can't be _____ (fill in the blank religion)?

Wouldn't YOU be the one infringing on religious freedom in that scenario?

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Re: Are you espousing that I should leave my religion


Mar 20, 2019, 6:37 PM

If you believe in freedom yes. Your actions effect citizens who don’t believe in your religion.

Glad you brought up people of other religions. Do you think Congress should have the power to implement sharia laws if the majority vote for it?

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Congress does have the power to implement laws


Mar 20, 2019, 8:57 PM

as long as they are not in violation of the Constitution. It's not about whether I believe they "should" have the power.

You said I can't exercise my religion if I'm a Congressman. I just fundamentally disagree with that, and I believe the Constitution very obviously does as well.

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Re: Congress does have the power to implement laws


Mar 21, 2019, 8:18 AM

No, I did not say you can't exercise your religion, you are free to worship any time you please as a congressman.

What you shouldn't do as a congressman is look to enforce what your religion teaches on the citizens of a free country.

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Your mistake, or disagreement with me, is really that


Mar 21, 2019, 6:14 PM

You think "exercising religion" is just worshiping at church. This is incorrect. I "exercise my religion" with every breath I take, every step I take, and every decision I make. It's about everything I do. And I have the freedom to exercise my religion thusly, as long as it doesn't infringe upon the liberties of another.

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It's not true at all. They were Christians and Deists.***


Mar 24, 2019, 12:28 PM [ in reply to Also, even if it were true that the founders were agnostics ]



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Welcome to Tigernet. Tell us about yourself.


Mar 20, 2019, 9:25 AM

I love hearing excuses from those like you, blaming your parents for how your life is.

-Doc

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I've been wrong two times, but this isn't one of them.


If it makes you feel any better,


Mar 20, 2019, 9:52 AM

I blame your parents for how you are.

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Re: If it makes you feel any better,


Mar 20, 2019, 10:51 AM

since you are a ####, we can blame yours. perfect.

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Crap.


Mar 20, 2019, 11:29 AM

Lost the number to the Burn Ward, and I'm gonna need it after that.

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Wow, I think that might be the first time I've seen


Mar 20, 2019, 1:49 PM [ in reply to Re: If it makes you feel any better, ]

"I know you are but what am I?" used on the Lounge. Kudos.

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Re: Conservatives do not seem to understand that this country


Mar 20, 2019, 9:38 AM

The scary thing is that anyone would want their laws based on the Bible.

I’m guessing most conservatives really don’t want that, it just makes a good excuse to justify racism and bigotry.

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"Smelley, Garcia, and Beecher are going to lead you to 4-8." - york_tiger


Most of the laws you like are, whether you like it or not,


Mar 20, 2019, 9:50 AM

based on the Bible. I'm sorry to break that to you.

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Enlighten me. What laws are based on the Bible other


Mar 20, 2019, 10:08 AM

than Thou shall not kill and Thou should not steal.

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I'd struggle to think of laws that AREN'T based on a


Mar 20, 2019, 10:09 AM

Biblical principle. Maybe the better thing would be for you to give me examples of laws, and I'll try to tell you the Biblical principle behind it. Could be fun.

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Ok. Child molestation is illegal, as well as dealing heroin,


Mar 20, 2019, 10:48 AM

and driving a car 85mph.

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I hope you don't need me to quote Scripture


Mar 20, 2019, 10:54 AM

against child molestation...as there are many verses about the evil of fornication of any kind, plus verses about hurting children. That's kind of an obvious one.

Heroin and other drugs can fall under Scripture teaching against drunkenness and damaging the body/temple; it's the same principle.

Speeding and many other laws can fall under Scriptural teaching about being concerned for the welfare of others, esteeming others greater than self (Phil. 2:3). What's more important: me getting where I'm going faster, or the safety of people around me?

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Prod.


Mar 20, 2019, 3:04 PM

Nobody opened the Bible and started quoting scripture when they set laws against heroin and speeding in place. That's going to the text and trying to find lines that justify the laws. The reasons lawmakers put stuff like that in had nothing to do with the Bible.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Strawmen. Never claimed any of those things.***


Mar 20, 2019, 4:25 PM



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Well, it sure seems like it.


Mar 20, 2019, 4:36 PM

"I'd struggle to think of laws that AREN'T based on a Biblical principle." -You

Joseph lists some that aren't.

You cite scripture to argue that they are.

How are you not making that argument?

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Read your post again...


Mar 20, 2019, 4:38 PM

I never said that anyone "opened the Bible and started quoting scripture when they set laws against heroin and speeding in place".

On the contrary, I'm sure most of the laws were put in place by people who didn't care anything about the Bible.

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Japan has the same laws, they base theirs on the bible?***


Mar 20, 2019, 3:21 PM [ in reply to I hope you don't need me to quote Scripture ]



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Yes, whether they know it or not.***


Mar 20, 2019, 4:24 PM



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um, okay, if that sort of logic makes you feel better.***


Mar 20, 2019, 4:26 PM



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I'll give you an illustration...


Mar 20, 2019, 4:32 PM

Let's say a white supremacist yells out in a patriotic fervor "We have a gov'ment of da people, by da people, fuhr da people!" He doesn't know it, and wouldn't like it, but he's getting that from Lincoln. Just because he doesn't know that Lincoln said it first doesn't mean it's not from Lincoln.

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ignorance =/= inspiration***


Mar 20, 2019, 4:52 PM



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Re: Most of the laws you like are, whether you like it or not,


Mar 20, 2019, 10:30 AM [ in reply to Most of the laws you like are, whether you like it or not, ]

You mean some of the Bible is based on common sense.

The rest of the Bible is based on a lack of understanding on how the world worked.

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"Smelley, Garcia, and Beecher are going to lead you to 4-8." - york_tiger


The part of the Bible you agree with is "common sense"


Mar 20, 2019, 10:39 AM

The part you don't agree with is "lack of understanding". That's a pretty standard viewpoint, I'd say, held by millions the world over.

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Re: Conservatives do not seem to understand that this country


Mar 20, 2019, 10:10 AM [ in reply to Re: Conservatives do not seem to understand that this country ]

Sadly I’m starting to think this is the case. Conservative Christians don’t seem interested in converting non believers, they just want to put them in their place.

You never read in the New Testament from the early Christian writers anything about infiltrating politics or changing laws, and the secular society they lived in would make America look like Amish country.

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There's something we agree on.


Mar 20, 2019, 1:36 PM

It took a while but you've finally gotten around to a fair criticism for the typical Christian. Walking with Jesus takes one out of the political arena. I'm not saying they shouldn't vote but there's a fine line between a Christian's balance between voting and protesting, filing lawsuits and other political trashy activities.

More than once God has called me down about my participation on the P&R board. If I spend much time here I get nasty and hateful. I don't hate but I my heart generates much contempt for liberals and those who wish to fundamentally alter our constitution and nation.

Politics are trivial, a relationship with God is eternal. Whether or not you believe in him does not matter. He is real and his majesty, dominion and holiness are eternal and so is your soul. I remember an old woman named Ms Bowles who didn't believe in electricity. She had a potbelly stove in one room and slept in the other. Covering a hole in the ground in the back yard was a small building called as outhouse.

I couldn't say if Ms Bowles would grab hold of a charged 220v wire or not but whether or not she believed in electricity wasn't the issue, was it? You have a reckoning someday, whether or not you believe it doesn't matter.

How's that for ignoring politics and sticking with a mission?

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Re: There's something we agree on.


Mar 20, 2019, 2:05 PM

“ my heart generates much contempt for liberals and those who wish to fundamentally alter our constitution and nation.“

So you don’t think conservatives do their share of stomping on the constitution?

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Absolutely, but two wrongs don't make a right.


Mar 20, 2019, 5:02 PM

At the present time our political air is full of condemnation of constitution and the majority of it is coming from the left. In other times it came from the right but not now. I fear we all live in the moment and this moment seems to be all that matters, I know that's how I do it.

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Ok, cool. Hook'em.***


Mar 20, 2019, 10:27 AM



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You're right, for the most part.


Mar 20, 2019, 2:49 PM

Assuming this isn't just a troll post...

I disagree that most of our founding fathers were agnostic. There was a pretty healthy mix of beliefs among them, including Christian.

The blanket statement that "our nation was founded on Christian beliefs and principles" in itself is blatantly false. After all, the Bible clearly outlines what God's government is: a monarchy. He is king. Obey the king. Trust the king. Don't question the king.

That ain't our government.

While we have to recognize that Jefferson, and thus our founding fathers by signing the document, argued that our rights came from the Creator in the Declaration, we must also remember that in the more important fabric of our government, the Constitution, there is no structure of Christianity in place.

Furthermore, we really don't have to analyze much more past the First Amendment. It is laid out, plain as day, that our government shall not officially recognize a religion, and the Supreme Court has upheld this clause on the side of separating our government and Christian influence.

Our government can't be one founded upon Christianity as Christianity has not historically been kind to other religions when it has been the dominant presence (or even different denominations).

So yes, claiming that our nation was founded upon Christianity is revisionist history at its finest.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


On the point about God being king....


Mar 20, 2019, 4:34 PM

you seem to be ignoring the teachings in the NT about having respect for authority/government.

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Not at all...


Mar 20, 2019, 4:38 PM

What I'm arguing is that I hear many Christians claim our government structure is based upon Christianity, yet Christianity ultimately boils down to a monarchy where we should love, trust, and obey the king (God/Christ) in all matters.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


I think you're confusing two existences which...


Mar 20, 2019, 5:16 PM

though they have similarities are radically different. You're confusing the spiritual and the physical world, if you wish, the temporal and eternal. No where in the New Testament is a form of government established. There's the freewill you spoke of earlier.

Our Founding Fathers had obligations to themselves and to us to establish a government which provided that no religion would be established. Imo, it was that way because they were etching out a one place on the planet without an established religion.

I can't say they would have chosen Christianity due to my belief that they knew that were any religion established sooner or later government control might be seized and undo what they fought to put in place.

Throughout history religion has been used to govern. Our FF didn't want that. They did it right, imo.

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God wanted a Theocracy...


Mar 20, 2019, 5:27 PM [ in reply to Not at all... ]

But man rejected it in the book of 1 Samuel. In His grace, he has allowed man to set up governments, gave us some good pointers to do it better, and even directs those governments in certain ways to our benefit.

But make no mistake, a Theocracy is obviously the ideal form of government, and it will be the last government.

(Don't go out saying Prod thinks the US should be a theocracy! I didn't say that!)

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Re: Not at all...


Mar 20, 2019, 5:34 PM [ in reply to Not at all... ]

I've never heard a Christian say that, nor do I hear many directly say that biblical principals should influence laws, however their actions clearly show they believe that. What they don't realize is that they are trampling on the liberties of every American who doesn't believe in the God of the Bible....

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Re: Not at all...


Mar 21, 2019, 6:41 AM

You haven't heard that from Christians because all the Christians you know are spiritual children who don't yet understand adult spiritual concepts.

I didn't say our law isn't a strong reflection of Christian principles, I said our founding fathers didn't want an established religion backed by government because if they established a religion sooner or later voters would change that established religion to institute some other religion which would stifle freedom and undo all their work.

Levitical Law is well represented in the civil and criminal laws. It's not a mirror image of Levitical Law but it's much closer to it than any other law.

A couple other things you ignore, if we learned anything from the Greek we learned that as a pure form of government pure democracy does not work. It's also true that our Founding Fathers got their education from schools and teaching of the church.

John Adams-At age sixteen, Adams entered Harvard College in 1751, studying under Joseph Mayhew.[10] As an adult, Adams was a keen scholar, studying the works of ancient writers such as Thucydides, Plato, Cicero, and Tacitus in their original languages.[11] Though his father expected him to be a minister,[12] after his 1755 graduation with an A.B. degree, he taught school temporarily in Worcester, while pondering his permanent vocation. In the next four years, he began to seek prestige, craving "Honour or Reputation" and "more defference from [his] fellows", and was determined to be "a great Man." He decided to become a lawyer to further those ends, writing his father that he found among lawyers "noble and gallant achievements" but, among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces." His aspirations conflicted with his Puritanism, though, prompting reservations about his self-described "trumpery" and failure to share the "happiness of [his] fellow men."[13]

Emp mine-Puritanism..."the beliefs or principles of a group of English Protestants of the late 16th and 17th centuries who regarded the Reformation of the Church under Elizabeth I as incomplete and sought to simplify and regulate forms of worship...censorious moral beliefs, especially about self-indulgence and sex."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Five

They'd seen Christianity corrupted by becoming an established religion and refused to allow that to happen on this continent. Christianity wasn't the problem they had with an established church. The power leaders of a country with an established religion had to control the people was the problem. They wanted to unite states which would govern the land of the free.

I don't care who you marry. I don't think the government should be involved in marriage because this chit happens. Next question?

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I don't think that's true, in regards to "what many...


Mar 21, 2019, 7:38 AM [ in reply to Not at all... ]

Christians say." I do hear the phrase that our country was founded on Judeo/Christian values. We can debate what that means, as has been done in this thread.

But back to the point, stating that the country was founded on Judeo/Christian values does not run counter to our form of government, in that it certainly does not mean a theocracy.

I believe most who use the term are referencing the idea that our rights and freedoms are granted to us by God as the main point. I would throw in the value of the nuclear family as another example.

Certainly no one can argue that our country and system of government is indeed based on the idea that our rights come from God.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,"

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Re: Conservatives do not seem to understand that this country


Mar 20, 2019, 7:37 PM

Plenty of conservatives are aware of the separation of church and state. What you’re referring to is the fervent belief by some in the Bible’s teachings that appears to border on a fanaticism of some sort. I used to cringe at this but now, given the daily reminders that evil is alive and well, the Bible thumpers are almost a comforting presence. Especially with Christianity under attack worldwide.

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Everyone's personal beliefs, views and opinions,


Mar 20, 2019, 10:41 PM

including religious ones, influence who they vote for, what they vote for, what laws they support and which ones they oppose. There is absolutely nothing in the constitution prohibiting that. Now, the founders could have made Christianity (or any other religion) our official religion, but they very consciously and deliberately did not. Instead, they did the exact opposite. They could have required courts and elected officials to consult the bible when ruling on cases, passing laws, or debating policy, but they did not. So, ultimately, they understood and expected that religious beliefs would influence and be reflected in or laws, yet they prohibited the forced adherence to or practice of any religion; they belived it was a personal matter best left to the individual.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Boom. Precisely.


Mar 21, 2019, 6:51 AM

I cannot believe people in this thread would say that our leaders should not be free to allow their religious beliefs to influence them in what they do. That is the entire point of having religious beliefs. If they can't operate based on them, then that is the VERY DEFINITION of infringing on religious freedom.

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Re: Boom. Precisely.


Mar 21, 2019, 8:28 AM

What you just said IMO is what is wrong with Christianity as we know it in America today. Nowhere in your Bible are you told as a Christian to influence laws and force citizens to follow biblical principles, you're called to love others and live a clean life, giving glory to God in everything you do. That's what exercising your religion looks like.

If you believe in freedom for EVERYONE, including those who do not believe in your Bible, you would not want to see it forced on those people.

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Part of what you say is correct.


Mar 21, 2019, 9:01 AM

Serving God is our primary responsibility but you're ignoring the directions to pray for our leaders. If we're directed to, and expected to pray for someone shouldn't we also exercise a right to select them? I don't see a conflict of interest here.

Being that I claim to be Christian and you have not I'm wondering from what authority you give me directions and why you think your concepts of what God's word really says is valid. I don't tell you how to be an atheist because I don't want to appear to present myself as an authority on something I have not personally experienced.

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Re: Part of what you say is correct.


Mar 21, 2019, 10:48 AM

I'm not concerned with whether or not you are following your Bible here, I just pointed out that being a good Christian does not entail fighting for laws that reflect biblical values.

I'm concerned with citizens of this country who choose not to believe in the God of the Bible being forced to obey laws that are passed BECAUSE they reflect those values. That is not freedom.

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You are protected by the constitution from being


Mar 21, 2019, 1:01 PM

forced to believe in or practice any religion. You are not protected from laws that are influenced by religious ideas or thought. There is a difference.


I can't pass a law that forces you to attend a Mosque or wear Thor's hammer around your neck. I can pass a law that prohibits murder, even if it's based on my belief that murder is wrong because the bible says it is.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Re: You are protected by the constitution from being


Mar 21, 2019, 1:06 PM

Ok, but you don't have to be a Christian to see that murder is wrong. You have to be one to think that a man shouldn't be able to marry another man.

There is no reason other than "the Bible says so" to believe that two consenting adults who both happen to be of the same sex can't get married.

Legalization of marijuana is another issue that is being opposed by conservatives simply because it's considered a sin to use.

So while it's perfectly in their rights to vote based on personal beliefs, you can't deny that people who do are trampling on the rights of citizens who don't adhere to those beliefs.

Ironically it's the same crowd who is all about patriotism and how proud they are to live in a free country. They just want to make sure freedom is own their terms.

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Re: You are protected by the constitution from being


Mar 21, 2019, 1:23 PM

'You have to be one to think that a man shouldn't be able to marry another man.' That's extreme hyperbole. Some Christians don't care who you marry and some secular people think homosexuality is a blight on humanity.

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Re: You are protected by the constitution from being


Mar 21, 2019, 1:32 PM

I think it’s pretty safe to say that the majority of people in America who think gay marriage should be illegal believe that because their Bible says it.

If a person votes to enact a law to prevent another citizen from doing something that does not hurt themselves or another citizen they are trampling on that persons freedom.

You can’t say I’m an American who believes in freedom and then go vote to keep someone else from doing something based on your religion without being full of shiznit.

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Which is it?


Mar 21, 2019, 1:54 PM

You're confused about freedom too. We have laws with which to live if we want to stay out of jail. Just how many of those would you abolish to gain what you call freedom?

BTW, I think all drugs should be legal and produced by companies to get the highest quality and know what you're getting when you stuff a needle in a vein to get high. If people want to kill themselves I'm not going to run the pump but I'm not for putting them in jail for trying.

I've said I don't care if men marry men and women marry women, Imo that's one of the simple things God does in a man's life when he gets saved.

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You just contradicted yourself.


Mar 21, 2019, 6:21 PM [ in reply to Re: You are protected by the constitution from being ]

" while it's perfectly in their rights to vote based on personal beliefs"

You have stated the opposite of that repeatedly in this thread, that Congressmen do not have the right to vote based on their beliefs. Which is your actual opinion?

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Re: You just contradicted yourself.


Mar 21, 2019, 6:36 PM

They shouldn’t but they do and they contradict themselves when they talk about the constitution.

It’s usually people who are all about protecting the 2nd amendment that tend to skip over the first.

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You just said that Congressman should not vote


Mar 21, 2019, 6:47 PM

based on their beliefs.

What do you believe they should vote based on? Coin flips?

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Also, it appears that you just conceded that it


Mar 21, 2019, 6:53 PM [ in reply to Re: You just contradicted yourself. ]

is their Constitutional right to vote based on their religious beliefs, just that you don't believe they "should" exercise that right. Is this correct?

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Re: Also, it appears that you just conceded that it


Mar 21, 2019, 11:13 PM

Well obviously we can’t know exactly why someone votes the way they do unless they come out and say it, as you already have in this thread proving my OP correct that conservative Christians want our laws to reflect biblical principals.

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I want America's moral standard to be restored so we...


Mar 23, 2019, 4:29 PM

as a nation can find favor with God. Yet, yet, mind you, I do not believe it's possible to legislate morality.

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Re: I want America's moral standard to be restored so we...


Mar 23, 2019, 8:02 PM

I thought according to the Bible only those who have their faith in Jesus would find favor with God?

And according to Jesus only a few will be saved and the secular world will continue to get worse.

It’s almost like Christians don’t believe Him and are more concerned about earthly things rather than heavenly things.....

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What do you know about being a good Christian?


Mar 21, 2019, 1:20 PM [ in reply to Re: Part of what you say is correct. ]

What are your qualifications for being an authority on what it takes to be a Christian. What exactly makes one a Christian and further more what constitutes a 'good,' Christian?

I think we need to set up some definitions less you continue to esteem yourself qualified to know the Spirit of Christ.

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What in the world are you talking about?


Mar 21, 2019, 6:17 PM [ in reply to Re: Boom. Precisely. ]

Absolutely no one in this thread is saying anything about forcing anyone to do anything. Quite the opposite.

My Congressman voting on laws being influenced by his religious beliefs is NOT THE SAME THING as forcing his religion on another person. NOT EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE.

In fact, my personal religious belief is that it is a wicked sin to try to force my religion on another person. I would never try to do that.

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Re: What in the world are you talking about?


Mar 21, 2019, 6:33 PM

If you vote to enact laws based on your Christian beliefs that is exactly what you’re doing.

I’m not sure why you can’t understand that.

If you believe in freedom you should vote to ensure everyone keeps that right.

Example.....as a Christian you believe homosexuality is wrong, but you vote that it should be legal because people shouldn’t have to live according to your beliefs.

Sadly conservatives refuse to see this error in their thinking and ironically they are the ones who claim to be super patriotic.

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Why would I vote for homosexuality to be illegal?


Mar 21, 2019, 6:45 PM

Why would you think I would vote that way?

I believe you just have a very significant misunderstanding of Christianity.

If I vote against murder because of my religious beliefs, does that I mean I am forcing Christianity on another person? That's what you just said. If you decide to change your mind and say that is not forcing Christianity on another person, then why not?

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Re: Why would I vote for homosexuality to be illegal?


Mar 21, 2019, 11:24 PM

Nobody needs a bible to tell them killing another person is wrong.

Gay marriage, among other issues, on the other hand is something that conservative Christians have fought against for years based on biblical teaching.

Take a look at the Vice President’s track record regarding gay rights....

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My understanding at this point...


Mar 22, 2019, 7:28 AM

Is that are in favor of someone voting based on their religious beliefs, as long as it is something you agree with, like murder? But if it's on something you don't agree with, then they shouldn't vote based on religious beliefs.


Is this correct?

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Re: My understanding at this point...


Mar 22, 2019, 8:15 AM

Now you’re just being obtuse.

You know there’s a huge difference in murder and things like gay rights.

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Who said anything about "gay rights"?


Mar 22, 2019, 8:23 PM

I haven't.

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You're accusing Christians of measuring sin and...


Mar 22, 2019, 8:55 PM [ in reply to Re: My understanding at this point... ]

saying some sins are OK. Somehow you're confusing man's deliberation of sin to God's. I aspire to use God's standard, not man's.

Everybody is selective in their sinning. Some rape children but would never rob a bank. Some hire themselves out to murder while most of us wouldn't consider something like that. Everybody has limits or rather a place where they draw the lines. You might be more 'moral,' than someone else such that you'd fudge on your taxes but you'd never cheat on your wife/husband. Some men habitually cheat on their wives and family while others draw the line at that.

We all have our moral lines which we draw and refuse to cross. The issue Christian have which you don't understand is that our line is drawn at the Cross of Christ. On one side where The Lord was crucified there's only One. On the other side is every one of the rest of us. We're in the same boat, me, you and every other being on this planet.

You're trying to cross that line and become a moral savior but it won't work. I've tried it, I've tried to live a moral life like you but it is impossible. There is no way to save yourself, only the Blood of the Lamb can do that.

I am not moved by God to approve homosexuality nor am I commissioned to approve it or any other sin. No Christian is permitted to condemn a homosexual nor are we do extend any feelings toward them other than love, forgiveness and the truth of the gospel.

You've decided you're morally superior to me and perhaps many others and this matter of approving of homosexuality is where you've drawn your line. As I said, we're all on the same side of that line.




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Re: You're accusing Christians of measuring sin and...


Mar 23, 2019, 4:54 PM

No I’m accusing conservatives of attempting to enforce their religious beliefs on American citizens.

Look no further than the Vice President. He has gone as far as trying to make it a criminal offense for same sex couples who apply for a marriage license and opposed a law prohibiting discrimination against LGBT folks in the workplace.

And conservative Christians call that “taking a stand”.

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I think he's reducing religion to morality.


Mar 22, 2019, 8:28 AM [ in reply to My understanding at this point... ]

Everyone has a measure of morality, even a man who robs a bank or commits a for hire murder won't rape a child. Perhaps one who sexually abuses children would never consider hiring out for murder. It's all relative but what the left doesn't get is the standard set by Christ at the cross.

Some of us judge ourselves one to another which our frail minds can ignore or justify anything. Imo, this discussion is all about imposing will on others. In PP's mind his moral stance is superior because he has a vein of believe that man is the supreme being in the universe. He is his god.

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Re: I think he's reducing religion to morality.


Mar 22, 2019, 8:52 AM

You're off base, here it is again....

The context here is "crimes" that do not effect you or any other citizen being illegal because your Bible tells you it should be.

Murder effects people, therefore it should be illegal.

Gay marriage doesn't effect you or me, or anybody else, yet conservative Christians want it illegal because their Bible says it's wrong.

That is an infringement on people's freedom, period.

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And one more thing:


Mar 22, 2019, 7:30 AM [ in reply to Re: Why would I vote for homosexuality to be illegal? ]

"Nobody needs a bible to tell them killing another person is wrong. "

This statement is incorrect. I am a person that needs a Bible to tell me it is wrong. And that everything else is right/wrong. And to tell me about everything in life.

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Re: And one more thing:


Mar 22, 2019, 8:19 AM

Let’s try this one more time:

If you vote to keep people from doing things that do no hurt you or any other citizen just because your Bible tells you it’s wrong you are infringing on their freedom.

Maybe you personally don’t care if two men get married, although I think you probably do, our Vice President has a track record of doing this and conservative Christians love him for it.

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Re: And one more thing:


Mar 22, 2019, 8:22 PM

"If you vote to keep people from doing things that do no hurt you or any other citizen"

This is a strawman. Can you cite any examples where I said I would vote for something this way?

You keep on bringing up marriage. You are the only person who has brought that up. I have not. It sounds like you're trying, and failing, to pin something on me about it.

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Re: And one more thing:


Mar 22, 2019, 8:51 PM

You’ve already said you would vote based on the Bible.

I’m not really sure what your argument is at this point.

Are you denying that conservative Christians in this country seem to want our laws to reflect their beliefs?

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Every Christian is hopefully voting based on their beliefs..


Mar 22, 2019, 9:23 PM

Hopefully so is every Muslim, and every Hindu, and every atheist. Else, why would you vote, and why would you have beliefs?

You vote based on your religious beliefs (or lack thereof), and you should. The First Amendment gives you the right to do that.

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Re: Every Christian is hopefully voting based on their beliefs..


Mar 23, 2019, 8:13 AM

No,because you are voting for how a country full of citizens with different beliefs will have to live....

You should vote to ensure that people are free of (insert religion here) influence.

That is the way the founding fathers saw it.

What do you think about Mike Pence's stance against gay rights?

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I don't know Mike Pence's stance on "gay rights,"


Mar 23, 2019, 7:13 PM

nor do I care. I don't believe in "gay rights" as a thing, anymore than "heterosexual rights" or "blue eyes rights" or "Clemson fan rights".

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You know how easy it is to avoid looking this stupid?


Mar 22, 2019, 8:59 AM

Why do people post about things that they obviously have no idea what they are talking about? Look into it BEFORE making a public statement. Otherwise, you are behaving like a fool.

I'm not a Christian, but the majority of founding fathers were. And it was extremely important to their word views. The rest of them were Diest, which is still based largely on Judeo-Christian values.

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Re: You know how easy it is to avoid looking this stupid?


Mar 22, 2019, 9:29 AM

Ok....

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

-John Adams

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding..."

-Thomas Jefferson

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Alrighty then, here we go.


Mar 24, 2019, 12:28 PM

You said... In fact most of the founding fathers were agnostics

That is absolutely false.

Adams and Jefferson were both Christians. So were the vast majority of the Founding Fathers.

Adams and Jefferson both believed that no government should compel a man to accept or deny a certain religion, but their world views were informed by Judeo-Christian values.

The first quote you used from John Adams is from the 1797 treaty with Tripoli. Any idea why we may be declaring that on a treaty with a Islamic, Barbary Pirate state?

Here's the whole part. It's Article 11 from the treaty.
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

This is what happens when lazy people with no historical context try to use quotes to win arguments. Here is another quote from John Adams.

Because We have no Government armed with Power capable of contending with human Passions unbridled by morality and Religion. Avarice, Ambition Revenge or Galantry, would break the strongest Cords of our Constitution as a Whale goes through a Net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

Yet another from John Adams...

Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!

You want me to keep going or do you get the point? I am an actual historian. Not an ideologue who skims history to win arguments. Again, I'm not a Christian and believe VERY strongly in the separation of Church and State, but history is history.

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Re: You know how easy it is to avoid looking this stupid?


Mar 22, 2019, 9:36 AM [ in reply to You know how easy it is to avoid looking this stupid? ]

Here's a good read for you....

https://www.alternet.org/2012/01/5_founding_fathers_whose_skepticism_about_christianity_would_make_them_unelectable_today/

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Never-the-less,


Mar 22, 2019, 8:59 PM

we're talking about laws and morality being founded in the Bible.

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Re: You know how easy it is to avoid looking this stupid?


Mar 22, 2019, 9:37 AM [ in reply to You know how easy it is to avoid looking this stupid? ]

And another:

"Our research and interviews with historians showed that the Founding Fathers pretty clearly meant all religion. For example, we found that both Benjamin Franklin and John Adams referred to Islam when discussing religious freedom, typically referring to Muslims as Mahometans."

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2014/jul/03/fact-checking-founding-fathers-misquoting/

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Using politifact for history... Good Lord.


Mar 24, 2019, 12:32 PM





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Re: Conservatives do not seem to understand that this country


Mar 25, 2019, 11:59 AM

Actually, most of the Founding Fathers were Christians, not agnostics. Many were Protestants. Some were Christian Deists.

Claiming they were agnostics is revisionist history.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/The-Founding-Fathers-Deism-and-Christianity-1272214

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Re: Conservatives do not seem to understand that this country


Mar 25, 2019, 12:04 PM

In fact, there are multiple references to God in the Declaration of Independence. That's pretty good evidence that any claim that the Founding Fathers were agnostics is a bogus claim.

There are no references to God in the Constitution, but there is an obvious 1st Amendment reference to freedom of religion.
Ergo, anyone who votes the way they do based on religious beliefs us absolutely following the Constitution.

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Re: Conservatives do not seem to understand that this country


Mar 25, 2019, 12:49 PM

This could be the most ill-informed post ever.

God was all over Declaration, Bill of Rights, and everything the creators did.

They did not want a specific religious sect running the country.

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