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All-In [42000]
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Dismissing and/or celebrating murder for politics...
Aug 31, 2020, 9:57 AM
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Is making this worse on both sides.
Three people were murdered this past week in two separate protests. I'll use that word again. Murdered. Not self defense. Not just a homicide. And it seems some folks are okay with it on one side and not the other depending on their politics (I'm not talking about this board necessarily specifically; I'm also including conversations I've heard outside of here).
What needs to be the norm--what used to be the norm and should be to quell this tension and animosity--is that normal people (you know, the kind who don't feel the need to go to one of these protests and just debate this #### on a message board) denounce the idea of taking a firearm to a protest/riot with the hopes of shooting someone.
That's what Kyle Rittenhouse did. And whoever shot the Trump supporter in Portland, that's what he did (I'm just going to assume a male in this case). If you're entering this hostile environment to push your own political views and battle another side, you aren't carrying a gun in there over self defense. You're hoping you get to use it.
People who carry firearms for self defense do it as they carry out their every day lives in case someone randomly tries to harm them or others. Or they keep it in their home in case someone breaks in. They don't seek out trouble and then start screaming self defense when they kill someone.
I'm not arguing the people who were shot were great people or heroes. It appears the first person Rittenhouse shot wasn't up for Man of the Year. But he had a daughter and people who loved him. The second person killed thought he was trying to stop an active shooter. The third shot, the one in the bicep, was brandishing a legal firearm and also thought he was trying to stop an active shooter. Again, I don't advocate him taking a gun into this situation either.
In the Portland case, eyewitness accounts claim the victim maced the opposition before being shot. I wouldn't say it's smart to start macing the opposition side in a volatile situation, but that doesn't warrant a death sentence, either. That person was murdered.
Nobody here should cheer on or defend any of these shooters. In fact, we shouldn't be celebrating anyone engaging in these clashes whether they support Trump or Antifa or BLM or Proud Boys or whatever the #### they're advocating. They're there for one reason: to commit violence and destruction. They all have the same goal. It's solving nothing, and when normal folks like us defend any of them, it makes the situation worse (as I've said before, I'm not referring to the peaceful demonstrators--I don't really think they're solving anything either, but I'm not including those who try to join peaceful, non-violent protests).
And if you defend or give a little wink or a nod to one of these shooters and denounce the other, you're nothing but a partisan hack who puts politics over right, wrong, and the law.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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I agree mostly...
Aug 31, 2020, 10:04 AM
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I stand by the point that nothing good can come from citizens with opposing views going to the protests.
Kyle Rittenhouse should not have been there and should not have been given a gun. However, I can hardly assume he was looking to shoot somebody. The video seems to indicate that he was attacked with a skateboard and they were trying to take his gun. At that point, he was defending himself. But yes, if he wasn't there, this wouldn't have happened.
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All-In [38514]
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When he was attacked with the skateboard, he'd
Aug 31, 2020, 10:10 AM
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already shot and killed one person. So I'm not sure how self defense could apply. Any self defense argument would have to apply to the first shooting.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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If so, you are correct...
Aug 31, 2020, 10:12 AM
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I'll have to review that. If I have the facts wrong, it still stands he had no reason to be there.
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Heisman Winner [111292]
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Re: If so, you are correct...
Aug 31, 2020, 10:20 AM
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there is a good argument to be made that he was in fear that they would take his gun, but then it calls into question the actions that led to him being in the middle of the street. Was he guarding the building and got chased off, was he brazenly walking down the street when he got attacked?
And certainly the narrative from the girlfriend of the first victim, that he thought this guy was an active shooter, fits.
I also believe you when you say he went there with the best intentions, but it is also fair to say his judgement, and that of those around him needs to be called into question. Regardless, a big tragedy all around that should have been avoided by just staying home.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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the other frustrating part of this stuff...
Aug 31, 2020, 10:23 AM
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is it is so hard to find a straight account of this.
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Legend [16719]
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Re: the other frustrating part of this stuff...
Aug 31, 2020, 2:46 PM
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Welcome to our society and Mainstream News. No one knows who to believe anymore.
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Orange Blooded [2079]
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I agree, it's disgusting on both sides.
Aug 31, 2020, 10:48 AM
[ in reply to Re: If so, you are correct... ] |
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The burdens of brandishing firearms are many, and people need to be prepared to kill and/or die once they decide to pull the trigger. It reminds me of the old saying "When embarking on a mission of revenge, dig two graves."
One thing I'm struggling with in all this is the instant media conclusion that anyone protecting their property/business/family is a Trump supporting racist. I'm not a Trump supporter by any means, and I can assure that defending my home and family against looting or riots would have nothing to do with an election. If the right wing stormtroopers arrive, I'll fight them. If the left wing stormtroopers arrive, I'll fight them as well. As an ex-Ranger who served in Iraq, I participated in many missions that involved "intimate" fighting and killing. I can tell you that once bullets and grenades start flying, there is no racism debate, no black, white, whatever. There's green (your team/family), and there's red. There's crying and screaming. Grown men are urinating themselves in fear. People are talking to dead relatives, come to take them to heaven. You will lock eyes with a "target" you just engaged, and you will watch the life leave their body by your hand. Many who are instigating these events don't know what battle feels like. I hope people think twice before pulling a trigger for Trump or Biden.
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All-In [42000]
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Re: I agree, it's disgusting on both sides.
Aug 31, 2020, 11:03 AM
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I agree with you on the view of protecting your own property, family, etc. I would see no problem with a person who owns a business in the middle of this mess standing his ground at that business.
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110%er [5641]
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Orange Blooded [2079]
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Thank you, and I hope more people can communicate truth.
Aug 31, 2020, 3:18 PM
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Just speaking from the heart...politicians want us divided along their lines. This ensures at least half of them will be in power at all times. These people mercilessly insult one another then attend each others family events. There's more unity in Washington that we are told.
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All-In [42000]
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Disagree
Aug 31, 2020, 10:15 AM
[ in reply to I agree mostly... ] |
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The skateboard and gun guy going after him (again, I don't defend that guy for having a gun) thought they were stopping an active shooter. They just saw Rittenhouse blow off the head of an unarmed man. Given the situation and heat of the moment, they thought they were stopping more violence.
We've heard similar stories of people rushing a shooter in mass shooting cases.
But we both agree: If he's not there at all with an AR-15, nobody dies.
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Lot o points [155581]
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How do you know that?
Aug 31, 2020, 10:34 AM
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I'm not saying you're wrong, because I don't know. Is there audio or an account of him saying something of that nature?
Seems absent that, it's just as likely that he was angry and wanted retaliation as it is that he was trying to be a hero.
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All-In [42000]
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Lot o points [155581]
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got it---gracias***
Aug 31, 2020, 10:36 AM
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Legend [16719]
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Re: How do you know that?
Aug 31, 2020, 2:51 PM
[ in reply to Re: How do you know that? ] |
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He may have been nice to some but I read he had a rap sheet that included 6 domestic violence arrests and a few gun violations.
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All-TigerNet [11623]
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Rittenhouse went hoping to shoot someone?
Aug 31, 2020, 10:10 AM
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Did I miss that video?
No one should ever take a firearm anywhere hoping to shoot someone.
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All-In [42000]
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Re: Rittenhouse went hoping to shoot someone?
Aug 31, 2020, 10:12 AM
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Yep, I'll hold to that argument. He crossed state lines and intentionally broke the law with possession of the fire arm, and marched around into the conflict. He wanted to play cop, and you don't march into riots like that wielding an AR-15 without plans to use it.
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All-In [26467]
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oh. We’re supposed to follow laws now?
Aug 31, 2020, 10:48 AM
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I didn’t get the memo
It’s changing so fast I can’t keep up
Looting? Still a crime or not?
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All-In [42000]
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Help me understand your non sequitur.***
Aug 31, 2020, 11:07 AM
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110%er [5641]
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Only cite laws when it serves the narrative***
Aug 31, 2020, 3:02 PM
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All-In [42000]
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Now help me understand YOUR non sequitur.***
Aug 31, 2020, 3:16 PM
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Dismissing and/or celebrating murder for politics...
Aug 31, 2020, 10:33 AM
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Agree with a lot of your points except involving the Kenosha shooting and a lot of the assumptions that you made.
- The kid was not there to cause conflict. He was actually interviewed before the shooting and he explained very clearly what he was doing there. Not saying he was right by any means
- The first shooting: He was being chased by a mob, the victim threw something unknown at him, another bystander shot a gun in the air, Kyle turned around and the victim was going for his gun and he shot.
- He then ran away and he is on camera saying that he is running to the cops.
- He is still being chased by the mob and then falls. He gets hit over the head with a weapon and shoots, then the other guy was about to shoot him with a pistol and he shot first.
In the next shooting, you can't see much on camera except you hear people yell out, "There's two of them right there". Then you hear "pull it out" and then gun shots. There are still a ton of details to come out on this one.
These are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT scenarios and for you to call anyone who doesn't think of these two SEPARATE incidents in the exact same light a "partisan hack" is nonsense. And it shows that you have 0 critical thinking skills.
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All-In [42000]
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Proven: You're a partisan hack.
Aug 31, 2020, 10:41 AM
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You immediately rush to Rittenhouse's defense yet denounce the other one. The only, and I mean the absolute only, reason you are doing it is because of your political beliefs and you are actually happy Rittenhouse took out some of what you thought was the opposition.
You're part of the problem in America right now.
-You don't cross state lines and travel to another city ILLEGALLY brandishing an AR-15 if you aren't looking for trouble. He already showed he had zero respect for the law.
-First shooting was on an unarmed man. It wasn't smart for the man to rush him, but he was still unarmed.
-Skateboard man was trying to stop what he thought was an active shooter.
-Handgun man was doing the same. If this had been a school shooting or a grocery store shooting, you would be cheering that man on. They only reason you are defending Rittenhouse is because he agrees with you politically. In fact, if he happened to be Antifa and the other guys were pro Trump, you'd be calling him a thug and demanding his prosecution.
Both shooters are murderers and both deserve prosecution.
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Oculus Spirit [79388]
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I think the way you're giving these rioters the benefit of
Aug 31, 2020, 10:49 AM
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the doubt exposes you as one, too. That "unarmed man" had done 12 years in prison, you think Kyle would have been physical match for him? You think he was going to just give him a big hug or something so they could talk about their differences? Portraying him as just an unarmed man like you are is so disingenuous.
Skateboard man was not some hero trying to stop an active shooter. Because he wasn't an active shooter at that time, he had clearly run quite a ways away and was retreating. He was trying to beat him to death with his skateboard for revenge, and would have gladly done so.
Handgun man also lamented not being able to kill Kyle after the fact. Again, not some virtuous hero trying to save Grandma.
Skateboard boy and prison pedo were seen on video together trying to incite the group Kyle was with previously. Most likely scenario is they saw him as young and weak, and tried to take advantage of that.
You give the benefit of the doubt to all of the people at the "protests"....as long as they're on the side of the protestors. Anybody in idealogical opposition are the dangerous ones somehow.
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All-In [42000]
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Clearly you didn't read my original post.
Aug 31, 2020, 10:56 AM
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Where I denounced the rioters and made it clear the first victim of Rittenhouse clearly wasn't known as a great person.
It's not "disingenuous" to portray him as an unarmed man; he WAS an unarmed man. And that's exactly what's going to be argued in court; Rittenhouse blew off his head with his illegal firearm.
Skateboard man was not some hero trying to stop an active shooter. Because he wasn't an active shooter at that time, he had clearly run quite a ways away and was retreating. He was trying to beat him to death with his skateboard for revenge, and would have gladly done so.
Not true. They had just witnessed him kill someone. What do you think his motive was for going after him?
Handgun man also lamented not being able to kill Kyle after the fact. Again, not some virtuous hero trying to save Grandma.
I didn't argue he was a virtuous hero. I argued he was trying to stop an active shooter, and again, if this were a man stopping another shooting in a public place, people here would be cheering him. They simply aren't because he was on the other political side. I've already said he shouldn't have been trotting around with a gun in this situation either, but at least he was doing it legally.
Skateboard boy and prison pedo were seen on video together trying to incite the group Kyle was with previously. Most likely scenario is they saw him as young and weak, and tried to take advantage of that.
Young and weak and carrying an AR-15? Unlikely.
You give the benefit of the doubt to all of the people at the "protests"....as long as they're on the side of the protestors. Anybody in idealogical opposition are the dangerous ones somehow.
I didn't give anyone the benefit of the doubt. My original post denounces all of the violent protesters and instigators. You clearly did not read my original post, or at least didn't read it carefully. My argument is that anyone--and I mean anyone--who goes to these riots with a firearm is looking to use it, and they should all be denounced.
Defending one and not another is partisan hackery. Both are murderers.
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Oculus Spirit [79388]
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He actually did not blow his head off
Aug 31, 2020, 11:12 AM
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The head wound was more of a graze, I think the autopsy said the kill shot went in through the pelvis. If you watch the video, even the people trying to render aid were having a hard time finding the entry wounds. So I find it hard to believe they even realized he had killed pedo at the time. And portraying a hardened convict chasing a 17 year old as "unarmed", as if he poses no danger is absolutely disingenuous.
There was also quite a bit of time between the first shooting and the second. Kind of kills the narrative that they were "trying to stop an active shooter" since there was no active shooter and he displayed excellent trigger discipline even when faced with a threat. Active shooter insinuates he was firing wildly while running down the street, which is false.
Their motive for going after him was to beat him, possibly to death. No different from the reason the mob broke that 71 year olds jaw with a concrete filled water bottle. We're talking about violent people here, skater boy was a repeated domestic abuser.
I will always defend clear cut cases of self defense, which this is.
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All-In [42000]
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Re: He actually did not blow his head off
Aug 31, 2020, 11:18 AM
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I was using a figure of speech. Apologies for the inaccuracy.
Look, we can agree victim #1 wasn't citizen of the year. But in court, the argument that he was a valid threat or match vs. the kid's firepower isn't going to hold up.
How much time was between each shooting? Were they not yelling to the crowd that he had already killed someone?
I didn't call him an active shooter. I said they were assuming that in the case. And as I've said, I'm not defending the character of the victims; it doesn't justify killing them. That's the problem. People are rushing to look at their records and justify Rittenhouse's actions because of their past. That doesn't excuse what he did and it doesn't justify their deaths.
The more people defend Rittenhouse's actions, the more shootings we'll have. Just like the Portland case. We don't know the victim, but regardless of what his history will show, that didn't warrant a death sentence.
And do you believe, if witness reports are correct, that he deserved to be shot for self defense if he maced the shooter?
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Oculus Spirit [79388]
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Why would it not hold up in court?
Aug 31, 2020, 11:37 AM
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You don't become king of the world and immune to threats because you're carrying a rifle, how would the courts not see pedo as a valid threat just because he wasn't visibly armed? Especially after a gun was fired as Kyle was attempting to run away from him. There is also plenty of precedent of the mob beating people severely over the past few months during these riots.
I don't know the exact amount of time, but it was enough for Kyle to circle back and attempt to aid pedo, until he was told to get out of there. Then he runs down the street a good ways, and is assaulted from behind. He's also obviously retreating. It's a fair amount of time between shootings. They were not heroically trying to stop an active shooter, they were just trying to beat him. Again, taking the girlfriends word for it on this is just giving the rioters the benefit of the doubt, which is completely unwarranted.
You couple their records with past incidents of innocent people getting beat by the mob, and it absolutely justifies killing them. They were violent felons, who attacked him. I really have no idea what you expected him to do, short of not being there. I guess just get beat to death?
Other than making the mistake of being there, his actions should be defended. We should always defend the right to self defense. This really seems like a classic case of forcing someone to be an #######, poke, prod, and generally #### with somebody and then cry when they fight back.
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All-In [42000]
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Re: Why would it not hold up in court?
Aug 31, 2020, 11:46 AM
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We don't know what a jury will do, but it's not going to be a strong argument on his lawyer's part. My prediction will be he and his lawyer plead to a softer punishment because they know the risk of this going to trial (remember, even if he got off for shooting the pedo, he would still have to face the skateboard shooting as well). Either way, my prediction is that this kid is going to prison for some amount of time.
If I'm wrong and he walks, well, then, I guess I'll just have to give up making legal predictions and watch more Netflix or something.
They were not heroically trying to stop an active shooter, they were just trying to beat him.
How do you know? And I said in my original post that I wasn't arguing they were heroes. I mean, ####, they're part of the problem with being there to begin with.
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Oculus Spirit [79388]
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And the skateboard shooting would be completely justified
Aug 31, 2020, 12:03 PM
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as well. Seriously, what would you have him do in that situation? Just take the beating?
I know because of the months upon months worth of videos of the mob doing exactly that.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Why would it not hold up in court?
Aug 31, 2020, 12:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why would it not hold up in court? ] |
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Or could be the prosecution offers a deal because they realize the murder charge won't hold up?
I bet we'll see the prosecution offering deals in this particular case.
Won't be capital murder.
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CU Medallion [59974]
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Re: Why would it not hold up in court?
Aug 31, 2020, 12:11 PM
[ in reply to Why would it not hold up in court? ] |
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"There is also plenty of precedent of the mob beating people severely over the past few months during these riots."
The exact reason that the McCloskey's felt the need to stand on their porch with firearms. Then all the Liberals start screaming that they are racist and protestors were just "passing by", which we all know is complete BS.
If the movement wants to keep beating people to death and throwing ice bricks and concrete bottles and blinding people with lasers......they need to be ready to be shot and killed.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Proven: You're a partisan hack.
Aug 31, 2020, 10:52 AM
[ in reply to Proven: You're a partisan hack. ] |
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Dude you are a complete idiot. Do you not see the difference in the shootings?
Kenosha: Mob chasing a guy with an AR.... You throw an object at him and then try and take his gun... The victim was the aggressor here. There is video proof of that.
The other shooting: "There's two of them right there, pull it out, bang bang bang"
I'm not saying that Kenosha wasn't a confusing scenario here. It obviously was. The kid wasn't a mass shooter. They were mistaken. They were chasing down a kid with weapons. Not that hard to comprehend.
- The crossing state lines thing is a stupid talking point and has nothing to do with the shooting. The kid lived close to Kenosha and was working as a life guard in Kenosha that day. The gun didn't cross state lines.
- So you aren't allowed to shoot if an angry mob with weapons is chasing you and somebody tries to take your gun?
- It sucks for the skateboard man if he thought he was going an active shooter. The fact of the matter is that Kyle was running away and he was chasing him with a mob and a weapon. Unfortunate situation.
- Same thing. He was chasing the kid down with a weapon.
- I am not basing my perception on politics. The kid was being attacked and acting in self defense.
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All-TigerNet [11623]
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Iron-Knee
Aug 31, 2020, 11:10 AM
[ in reply to Proven: You're a partisan hack. ] |
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You're making statements for the "protesters" while condemning the actions of Rittenhouse.
I loathe people stating someone was "unarmed." IMHO, that is part of the problem. The MSM puts it in headlines to cause an uproar. It's used to try and remove circumstance. Like the guy was standing there and was murdered in cold blood. Rosenbaum taunted the armed group asking them to shoot him. He continued to call them a bunch of "n**gas" and had to be held back. It appears that after Rittenhouse used a fire extinguisher on a dumpster that protesters had lit to push in to a gas station, Rosenbaum went after Rittenhouse. In the police report, witnesses stated that Rosebaum put his hands on Rittenhouse's rifle to try and take it from him. That's when shots were fired.
The actions of Huber (your skateboard man) can't be proven. Can you state, without a doubt, that he wasn't just trying to mess up Rittenhouse because he was on the other side? Huber was standing right next to Rosenbaum at the earlier confrontation between the armed group and the protesters. Huber has a lengthy criminal record, and convictions, of violence. Any statement about what Huber's true actions are speculation. You claim that Rittenhouse was out for blood without any doubt and Huber was just a Good Samaritan without a doubt. Both are your opinion and blatantly partisan.
The only reason you're defending Grosskreutz (your handgun man) is because he agrees with you politically. You don't violate curfew with a firearm if you aren't looking for trouble. He already showed he had zero respect for the law.
Both deserve prosecution. But calling either a murderer is up the judge and jury.
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All-In [42000]
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Re: Iron-Knee
Aug 31, 2020, 11:26 AM
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Eh, like many on this board, you don't know what "irony" means.
-You're falling into the trapping of Rosenbaum was not a good person, thus it warranted the shooting. That's not how it works. We're already in agreement he wasn't a great person, so you can stop trying to make that case. Again, the problem here is people are trying to use the victims' character to justify the shooting. It isn't sticking to the facts: Rittenhouse was there illegally brandishing a firearm, and YES, he shot an unarmed man. Period.
-Can I state it without doubt? No. Just like you can't state without doubt what his actions were. Neither can Rittenhouse or his attorney. Thus, they won't be able to argue self defense on it.
-You can't claim I'm partisan in any of this as I've also denounced the Portland shooter. You and others are the ones OKing one shooting and not the other. Not me. I'm denouncing both. That ain't partisan, bruh, no matter how much you want to scream it.
-What are Grosskreutz's politics? What are mine? How do you know we agree? We sure as #### don't agree on going to a riot with a firearm, do we? Oh, and didn't I say earlier that I didn't condone him being armed at this event? Didn't I say he's in the same boat as Rittenhouse but at least he was armed legally? Try to grasp some semblance of reading comprehension.
-Yep, it's up to a jury in the end. But neither is defensible.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Iron-Knee
Aug 31, 2020, 11:30 AM
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Ok, "Bruh"
I don't want anyone to get shot. I wish they didn't happen. But....
It must suck to look at both of these shootings and think they are the same despite the overwhelming evidence that they weren't. Critical thinking obviously isn't your strong suit.
- Kenosha looked like self defense
- With the little evidence that we know at this point it looks like the victim was executed. Again, I am not saying this with 100% certainty.
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All-In [42000]
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Re: Iron-Knee
Aug 31, 2020, 11:33 AM
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Again, you're only defending one shooting because of who did it and who got shot. That's it.
I'm denouncing both. You go out of your way to take a gun to a riot and look for trouble, and then you kill someone, you deserve prison.
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Lot o points [155581]
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I’m not “denouncing” either because I don’t know
Aug 31, 2020, 2:56 PM
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All the details and you don’t either, so “denouncing” anything would be presumptuous on my part when in both cases, there are explanations that I find unfortunate but acceptable, and explanations that I find deplorable.
Fact is, I don’t know, so denouncing something is silly. You can’t say the kid went looking for trouble, we don’t know that. If the gun were taken as self-defense to be used in a worst case scenario, then I’d say it worked. If the gun were legal to have in his possession, and it’s found that he was acting in self defense, then “deserving” prison seems counter to the law. Again...we don’t know. Maybe he felt some sense of duty to help....photos/videos from earlier in the day sure show him functioning as a volunteer providing pretty mundane assistance. I would think that someone just looking for trouble wouldn’t bother scrubbing walls, but again, I don’t know.
Personally I wouldn’t have been there at 17, much less with a gun, but that’s more a function of my parents having the common sense to look after my well-being....certainly not because my 17 year old brain was functioning perfectly.
Maybe he’s a do-gooder in the wrong place at the wrong time who did what he had to do. Maybe he’s a punk who thought he’d play soldier and drove up there to get into the sh## and found what he was looking for. For the 10th time, we don’t know, and the distinction matters, especially when it comes to “denouncing” something.
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All-In [42000]
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Re: I’m not “denouncing” either because I don’t know
Aug 31, 2020, 3:03 PM
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From the details that continue to emerge, it looks more like the "punk" scenario. A fight video has emerged of him from another day, and eyewitnesses are coming forward to state that he was pointing his gun at them and others throughout the night.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I’m not “denouncing” either because I don’t know
Aug 31, 2020, 3:09 PM
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All-In [42000]
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Re: I’m not “denouncing” either because I don’t know
Aug 31, 2020, 3:11 PM
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I'm just saying all signs point to little punk, and it seems based on the criteria by some on this board, that's worthy of a death sentence.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I’m not “denouncing” either because I don’t know
Aug 31, 2020, 3:15 PM
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All-In [42000]
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Re: I’m not “denouncing” either because I don’t know
Aug 31, 2020, 3:16 PM
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Didn't he flee back to his home in Illinois? Am I wrong there?
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Oculus Spirit [79388]
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15 minutes away, where else was he supposed to go?***
Aug 31, 2020, 3:20 PM
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All-In [42000]
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My point is he didn't turn himself in...
Aug 31, 2020, 3:21 PM
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Or try to surrender. Not in the way T3 is mentioning it. Either that, or they let him leave.
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Oculus Spirit [79388]
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He tried to turn himself in after the third shooting and
Aug 31, 2020, 3:26 PM
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tried to call 911 after the first. Per the video it looks like he had every intention of staying at the scene and waiting for police after the first shooting.
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All-In [42000]
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Then I guess we need to know...
Aug 31, 2020, 3:31 PM
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Why the police let him go.
The whole situation seems like a law enforcement failure as well.
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Oculus Spirit [79388]
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It's a total failure of law enforcement and local govt.
Aug 31, 2020, 3:46 PM
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What's most surprising to me about this whole thing is how that doesn't seem to resonate with anyone. I said it in another thread last week, how shocked I was when the looting happened in Charleston and just....nobody showed up to help. Nobody seems to want to recognize that the people in Kenosha were apparently totally on their own that night.
I would think that'd be very concerning to more people, especially with the gang presence most of us have in our communities. What happens if a cartel backed Latin Kings or someone just decides to take over your downtown? I don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling that our elected govt. or law enforcement would be very proactive in dealing with the problem, regardless of where you are. They don't seem capable.
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Lot o points [155581]
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Back in old Greenville proper we didn't have the Latin kings
Aug 31, 2020, 4:51 PM
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But we did have the Hot Dog King.
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-In [31830]
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All-In [42000]
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Re: I think you're being way too generous...
Aug 31, 2020, 12:12 PM
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I think I get why the second two were. I'm not defending the first; I'm just arguing it doesn't justify a death sentence.
Personally I think those three out there to begin with were part of the problem (including the guy with the gun doing exactly what I said a person shouldn't do). But I'm putting more weight on the actions that resulted in death.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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All-In [42000]
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Oh, well, if his lawyer says it, it must be true!
Aug 31, 2020, 10:41 AM
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I'm shocked his lawyer didn't come out and say he was there looking for trouble! Shocked, I say!
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Lot o points [155581]
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Careful,
Aug 31, 2020, 10:48 AM
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If your knee-jerk reaction is to call BS, you're being just as partisan as you accused Mountaineers of.
I've seen a couple accounts now that he didn't bring the rifle with him when he traveled to WI.
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All-In [42000]
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Re: Careful,
Aug 31, 2020, 10:59 AM
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Calling BS on a guy's attorney isn't partisan; that's calling BS on what most defense attorneys will do in this case. Gimme a break, Obed. You're really going to just take the lawyer at his word?
Not one of y'all can put me in a partisan corner on this anyway. Hell, most of you just make up what you think I support. I'm calling both cases murder and denouncing them both, and here we go with the "but but but" of Rittenhouse.
Again, the only reason he is getting ANY defense on this board is because of his political stances. That's it.
If he were Antifa, people would demanding his execution. But at least I'd still be calling it murder.
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Lot o points [155581]
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Ok, so what if in the reply above where
Aug 31, 2020, 11:54 AM
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you linked the girlfriend's account, I had replied with "Oh yeah, I'm SURE that his girlfriend is going to say he was an angry hothead and was out for some vengeance!!"
You'd have been calling me out for bias in a heartbeat. You're having your cake and eating it too in this thread.
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All-In [42000]
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I think you would be justified in questioning that.
Aug 31, 2020, 12:19 PM
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And certainly it will be in the court of law. I was giving you one eyewitness account. Could she be lying? Sure.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Oh, well, if his lawyer says it, it must be true!
Aug 31, 2020, 10:56 AM
[ in reply to Oh, well, if his lawyer says it, it must be true! ] |
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I'm shocked his lawyer didn't come out and say he was there looking for trouble! Shocked, I say!
You are a complete #######. And in typical insane liberal fashion, you are doing exactly what you are accusing me of doing.
You are completely dismissing Kyle's side of the story. You are saying with no proof that he went to Kenosha with the "hope of shooting somebody". Your words
But you believe without a doubt the second victims girlfriend when she says he was just trying to be a hero.
You are giving the victims every benefit of the doubt and the shooter none.
Maybe you are the partisan hack.
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All-In [42000]
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Dismiss his story?
Aug 31, 2020, 11:01 AM
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I saw the videos of what he did. Two people are dead because he inserted himself into a situation volatile while carrying an illegal firearm and said he wanted to play cop. Prosecutors will destroy him.
What's your view on the Portland situation? Are you going to give that shooter the same self defense opinion?
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Dismiss his story?
Aug 31, 2020, 11:14 AM
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I saw the videos of what he did. Two people are dead because he inserted himself into a situation volatile while carrying an illegal firearm and said he wanted to play cop. Prosecutors will destroy him.
What's your view on the Portland situation? Are you going to give that shooter the same self defense opinion?
Wow you are unbearable. As I said in my first response to the Portland shooting....
"In the next shooting, you can't see much on camera except you hear people yell out, "There's two of them right there". Then you hear "pull it out" and then gun shots. There are still a ton of details to come out on this one."
There are still a ton of details on this. From the evidence that I have seen it seems that the victim was targeted and then executed. That's all I know at this point. If more details come out, then I will reassess my viewpoint. If the shooter's life was being threatened, then he had every right to shoot.
Also, since you automatically believe the Kenosha's victims girlfriend, then I am only assuming that you definitely believe the victim's friend in the video below.
https://twitter.com/jafogrits/status/1300441019796910085?s=20
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All-In [42000]
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Re: Dismiss his story?
Aug 31, 2020, 11:20 AM
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There's a witness report that the Portland victim used mace on the shooter. Do you think that warrants a self defense shooting?
I don't. But that's using a weapon, right?
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Dismiss his story?
Aug 31, 2020, 11:26 AM
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This is the first I have heard about the mace. Upon further research, the victims friend vehemently denies the mace story. So at this point, who knows about the mace. Either way, mace isn't a deadly weapon.
Also, you can hear the shooter and an accomplice talking prior to the shooting. It didn't seem like they were getting sprayed with mace.
Much more to come out on this one.
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All-In [42000]
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Re: Dismiss his story?
Aug 31, 2020, 11:34 AM
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So we agree the shooting isn't justified, mace or not? Right? Good.
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Heisman Winner [137748]
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Oculus Spirit [78823]
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seems like he is on one side
Aug 31, 2020, 11:22 AM
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based on the tweets that I just read
who should I believe?
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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Standout [340]
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And this is WHY we need to split this country
Aug 31, 2020, 11:21 AM
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There are those who REFUSE to attribute responsibility appropriately:
1. No accountability for the rioters going after people's property and businesses.
2. No accountability for the initial shooting victim chasing KR and in the least throwing stuff at him.
3. No accountability for the initial shooter - whoever he was.
4. No accountability for the myriads of rioters chasing KR through the streets even as he refrained from brandishing the gun in his hands.
5. No accountability for a man wielding a skateboard - the same instrument that was used in another incident to beat a Policeman senseless.
6. No accountability for the Democratic Mayor and his Political Supporters for encouraging the rioting.
7. No responsibility for the General Liberal Media (MSM) for encouraging the rioting.
8. No responsibility for the Liberal democrats for their failure to condemn the rioting, and failure to provide Pres. Trump a clear political path to use Federal methods to end the siege.
No; what these people like the OP want to do is to go after the "little guy"; the small individual who was simply pulled into the affair by a Business Owner who has a right to defend his Property.
You keep going on about the "sadness" that these two people died. I'm sick of it. They went to riot knowing what they were going to do, and as well knowing that there may be Police or others there who would stand against them. But these two made that decision of their own - and what ever the consequences are shall be on them and them alone. It's called being responsible for your own actions.
No one has yet shown that KR did anything wrong. Yes, he was 17, but you do not get to "infer immaturity" just because you didn't like the outcome.
The OP is completely what is wrong with this country - no ability to attribute personal responsibility to personal decisions.
Does KR have responsibility? Sure he does. But if he did nothing wrong, was only defending property and himself, then his responsibility is taken care of.
IF YOU don't like that, then please tell all your like-minded friends to ask the Congress to start a new country for you so that those of us who are tired of your kind can start to live in peace. It's a simple thing: if you're going to start something, then you dang well better be able to end it. Or else someone like KR will end it for you and in a way you don't like.
Eff you. The problem is your absolute moronic stupidity, not KR.
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All-In [42000]
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Oh look. Someone else who can't read.
Aug 31, 2020, 11:32 AM
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Also, I hold that anyone on this board who replies to someone's post and refers to them in the third person has mental issues.
Let's get after it, idiot. Here are quotes from my OP:
Nobody here should cheer on or defend any of these shooters. In fact, we shouldn't be celebrating anyone engaging in these clashes whether they support Trump or Antifa or BLM or Proud Boys or whatever the #### they're advocating. They're there for one reason: to commit violence and destruction. They all have the same goal. It's solving nothing, and when normal folks like us defend any of them, it makes the situation worse (as I've said before, I'm not referring to the peaceful demonstrators--I don't really think they're solving anything either, but I'm not including those who try to join peaceful, non-violent protests).
Read that again. If you can't grasp that I'm not defending all the drivel you posted in your post, you're the problem. Refusing to listen to the other side. Refusing to read. Just reacting and taking the partisan hack approach.
Here. Let's make it easy. ANYONE who goes to these riots with the intent to cause destruction, violence, looting, wield guns, shoot people with mace or paintballs, run people over, scream in people's faces in restaurants, beat people, get in fights, burn stuff down, and anything similar, is a POS and needs to get a life.
Do you agree? You do? Oh, hey, we're on the same side. So quit crying.
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Standout [340]
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you're missing the point dude
Aug 31, 2020, 11:56 AM
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I'm not looking for you to tell me they're ALL wrong - which would conveniently include KR.
I'm looking for you to own up to the idea that these punks started something that had a bad ending, and because it appears KR did nothing wrong, it's then ALL on the rioters and BLM. ALL OF IT.
The problem is the rioting.
The problem is the failure of Liberals both locally and Nationally, to call them out and demand that the rioting stop.
The problem is the failure of the MSM to own up to their part in pandering to the rioters.
The problem is inflammatory wording and rhetoric of the Democrats.
The problem is the failure of Democrats to appropriately proved blame.
The problem is the failure of Democrats to appropriately deal with other issues like supposed but undocumented "Police Brutality".
The problem is NOT the Business Owners defending themselves nor the people who assist them in doing so - NOT in any way.
YOU need to watch a YT video of Joe Rogan speaking with a guy named Andy Stumpf. They talk about the possibility of Civil War. You better take a hard look at what Stumpf has to say. All Liberals better take a look at it.
Then you better take a look at a YT of Bret Weinstein talking after the Riots started in earnest. His commentary was about "genocide". You better take a hard look at it.
These are commenters saying that "Business as Usual" by Politicians and Liars is leading the country in a bad way - and guys like Andy Stumpf literally mean what they say.
People are FED UP with the lies of Liberals - just like Biden coming out and saying this is Trump's violence and rioters. Eff all of you - you think everything is solvable by "plausible deniability". If you couldn't Lie, you wouldn't be able to breathe.
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All-In [42000]
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Re: you're missing the point dude
Aug 31, 2020, 12:18 PM
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I'm not looking for you to tell me they're ALL wrong - which would conveniently include KR.
I know you aren't. You are cheering for the troublemakers who side with you.
I'm looking for you to own up to the idea that these punks started something that had a bad ending, and because it appears KR did nothing wrong, it's then ALL on the rioters and BLM. ALL OF IT.
We don't know who started what. And did nothing wrong? Two people are dead at the hands of a kid who already knew he was breaking the law just by being there with a gun.
The problem is the rioting.
Already said this.
The problem is the failure of Liberals both locally and Nationally, to call them out and demand that the rioting stop.
Who, specifically?
All your stuff about Dems.
We didn't have this stuff until we got a president who advocated division and violence. Now his idiots are going out to start violence and they're engaging with idiots on the other side who think that's the only solution.
The problem is NOT the Business Owners defending themselves nor the people who assist them in doing so - NOT in any way.
That wasn't the point of this discussion. Rittenhouse wasn't a business owner.
YOU need to watch a YT video of Joe Rogan speaking with a guy named Andy Stumpf. They talk about the possibility of Civil War. You better take a hard look at what Stumpf has to say. All Liberals better take a look at it.
No. Rogan is a UFC slobbering blowhard. The only thing I'll watch him in is News Radio. There won't be a civil war. I know you want one, but it's not happening.
Then you better take a look at a YT of Bret Weinstein talking after the Riots started in earnest. His commentary was about "genocide". You better take a hard look at it.
Not listening to anyone who films themselves on YouTube going on political rants.
People are FED UP with the lies of Liberals - just like Biden coming out and saying this is Trump's violence and rioters. Eff all of you - you think everything is solvable by "plausible deniability". If you couldn't Lie, you wouldn't be able to breathe.
Who is in charge of our nation right now? It ain't Joe Biden. You're also a person who has said you hate anyone who doesn't agree with your politically. I bet Rittenhouse was your wet dream.
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Standout [340]
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seriously I didn't know the IQ tests went that low
Aug 31, 2020, 2:03 PM
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You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. You really need some perspective - from a professional.
But whatever - I can guarantee you that I will never answer you again - I don't have an extra lifetime to refute your stupid sh*t.
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All-In [42000]
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Hold on...
Aug 31, 2020, 3:05 PM
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You promise you'll never reply to me again?
Man, I hope that's true, but as with most who say #### like that here, we know it's a lie.
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All-In [42000]
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Standout [340]
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And for those who do not know, the New York Times Video
Aug 31, 2020, 11:26 AM
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Editor did a piece on this the day after the shootings. He analyzed all of this in detail.
His headline statement was that it was a matter of "Self-defense".
That's the Left Wing New York Times now.
So maybe, just maybe OP, you're not nearly as reasonable nor as un-biased as you like to think that you are. F*ck off.
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110%er [5508]
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Re: Dismissing and/or celebrating murder for politics...
Aug 31, 2020, 12:17 PM
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Found another video of a gun being pulled during a demonstration in Tallahassee. Luckily no one got shot in this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkxTgrwZYWw
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Oculus Spirit [79388]
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Notice how cops will allow you to get beaten by a mob, but
Aug 31, 2020, 12:24 PM
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will swoop in quickly to arrest the easy pickings. I think everyone on the right needs to rethink their support for law enforcement.
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Standout [340]
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LOL - the WHOLE point of these riots was to bait Trump
Aug 31, 2020, 8:01 PM
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and the Conservative into using inappropriate force - think Kent State.
So the police have been caught between a rock and a hard place in what level of force to use. The fact that they have not been involved with a questionable level of force is testament to the professionalism of most of these guys even in the face of despicable public attacks.
So basically, eff you and your failure of logic.
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Rock Defender [53]
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This pretty much tells the story
Aug 31, 2020, 12:18 PM
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All-In [42000]
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There is no war.
Aug 31, 2020, 12:23 PM
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You know what most of America is? Sane people who wouldn't dream of going out to these demonstrations. Would you? No. You couldn't get me to drive to Downtown for a demonstration let alone to another state.
Screw that woman. She's the extreme and not representative of anyone. And she's no different than extremists who are happy Rittenhouse killed the other two people because of what they stood for. Anyone who cheers the Portland victim's death is an extremist fool.
Anyone who celebrates someone getting killed because they disagree with their political beliefs is an extremist and needs mental help.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Not political beliefs
Aug 31, 2020, 12:33 PM
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All-In [42000]
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Re: Not political beliefs
Aug 31, 2020, 12:35 PM
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I'll assume you feel the same way about white supremacists and other violent extremist right wing folks who are also going out to incite violence.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Not political beliefs
Aug 31, 2020, 12:45 PM
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All-In [42000]
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Re: Not political beliefs
Aug 31, 2020, 1:15 PM
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I'm glad we're in agreement on your first sentence.
I disagree it's a straw man. They have been out there inciting violence as well, and in some cases, stoking the fires. Some have even posed as Antifa. I'm not giving Antifa a pass on that, but we have extremist imbeciles on both ends doing this.
And honestly, they're all a minority. Most Americans aren't in either crowd or supporting any of this stuff. That's why I don't believe any war is coming.
I don't agree with going out to meet them with violence, and would prefer our law enforcement to do the trick. It's hard to separate the good from the bad when you have two sides out there trying to fight against the other.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Not political beliefs
Aug 31, 2020, 1:22 PM
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All-In [42000]
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Re: Not political beliefs
Aug 31, 2020, 3:05 PM
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That doesn't appear to have been the case in Kenosha. It's looking now like law enforcement may have encouraged and enabled people like Rittenhouse.
IMO, there are multiple people to blame besides that kid.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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I'm wanting to read up on these antifa posers...
Aug 31, 2020, 1:36 PM
[ in reply to Re: Not political beliefs ] |
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seriously.
I'm searching but apparently am using the wrong combo of words in my search. I've heard some liberal friends say this too.
All I'm seeing is fake Twitter accounts, which to me is a far cry from actual "boots on the ground."
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Standout [340]
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this is crap... The Liberals spend all their days talking
Aug 31, 2020, 2:09 PM
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about how dumb Trump is, and how he won't listen to anyone, and how he free anyone who disagrees with him.
And now they want to say he's come up with the bait&switch on who is really Antifa and who really funds them?
LOL - they've lied so much they don't even know they're lying to themselves half the time.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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if there is one thing that I have 100% confidence that MSM
Aug 31, 2020, 2:28 PM
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will cover, it's the misdeeds of those they deem right-leaning.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Re: Dismissing and/or celebrating murder for politics...
Aug 31, 2020, 2:36 PM
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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Re: Dismissing and/or celebrating murder for politics...
Aug 31, 2020, 2:41 PM
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Dismissing and/or celebrating murder for politics...
Aug 31, 2020, 2:47 PM
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I am a liberal and I am celebrating it and it has nothing to do with politics.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Dismissing and/or celebrating murder for politics...
Aug 31, 2020, 3:15 PM
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I'm not celebrating but ill point out you and I have BOTH pointed out for weeks that people are sick of this ####.
We knew it was only a matter of time.
Funny tho how some people don't start calling out this #### til a right winger decides to kill some people.
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All-In [42000]
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Re: Dismissing and/or celebrating murder for politics...
Aug 31, 2020, 3:18 PM
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I hope you aren't referring to me when you say "some people" because I've been sick of this #### since May.
It's more than a "right winger" killing people; it appears a leftist did as well. Which is the entire point of my post.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Dismissing and/or celebrating murder for politics...
Aug 31, 2020, 3:28 PM
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The democrats that have suddenly started denouncing the violence. Biden in particular.
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Legend [18003]
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Stop listening to wherever you got that from...
Aug 31, 2020, 3:46 PM
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http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/2005/29/sitroom.01.html
https://www.rollcall.com/2020/08/27/rnc-fact-check-pence-distorts-bidens-positions/
“You know, as I said after George Floyd’s murder, protesting brutality is a right and absolutely necessary,” Biden said. “But burning down communities is not protest, it’s needless violence, violence that endangers lives, violence that guts businesses and shutters businesses that serve the community. That’s wrong.
“In the midst of this pain, the wisest words that I’ve heard spoken so far have come from Julia Jackson, Jacob’s mother,” Biden said. “She looked at the damage done in her community, and she said this, quote, ‘This doesn’t reflect my son or my family.’ So let’s unite and heal, do justice, end the violence, and end systemic racism in this country now.”
As Biden said, after the police killing of George Floyd on May 25 and the ensuing protests in cities around the country — some of which turned violent or involved looting — Biden did condemn violent protests.
“I say they have a right to be in fact angry and frustrated,” Biden said in an interview on CNN on May 29. “And more violence, hurting more people, isn’t going to answer the question. But they’re totally correct, it is time it stops.”
Biden also released a statement, widely reported in the media, in which he said, “Protesting such brutality is right and necessary. It’s an utterly American response. But burning down communities and needless destruction is not. Violence that endangers lives is not. Violence that guts and shutters businesses that serve the community is not. The act of protesting should never be allowed to overshadow the reason we protest. It should not drive people away from the just cause that protest is meant to advance.”
“I’ve said from the outset of the recent protests that there is no place for violence or the destruction of property,” Biden said. “Peaceful protesters should be protected — but arsonists and anarchists should be prosecuted — and local law enforcement can do that.”
While Biden has certainly made comments in support of peaceful protests — just as Pence did at the Republican convention — FactCheck.org could find no instances of Biden or Harris encouraging “riots and looting in the streets.” To the contrary, Biden has repeatedly condemned those things.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Stop listening to wherever you got that from...
Aug 31, 2020, 3:52 PM
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People like Don Lemon?
I don't care what Pense said, I know he'll take things out of context, its politics.
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Legend [18003]
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Sure, if that's where you got it. It's wrong information.***
Aug 31, 2020, 4:02 PM
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Legend [18003]
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Both of those are arguing Biden needs to be more forceful
Aug 31, 2020, 4:23 PM
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not that he "suddenly started denouncing the violence" which is what you posted and what your argument was. Those articles only back up my argument that Biden has denounced the violence since at least the Floyd death.
Now, if you want to change the argument to be one of "presentation" or effectiveness of Biden's objection, then sure, there is certainly an argument there to be made.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Both of those are arguing Biden needs to be more forceful
Aug 31, 2020, 4:33 PM
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Ok i still don't choose my words correctly.
You said it better, the second paragraph is more what I mean.
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Legend [18003]
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Fair enough.***
Aug 31, 2020, 4:41 PM
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Standout [340]
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unfortunately the thing that you're not representing
Aug 31, 2020, 7:49 PM
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correctly is the totality of Biden's position, which doesn't simply include what he says, it includes what he doesn't say and what those around him are saying.
1) What he hasn't said (publicly or privately): "The Democratic Party will support the Govt. of the United States in using mandates available to them to quell the violence in our communities effectively and immediately. We will take this position in opposition to Local and State-wide leadership that has yet to solidify its stand against the violence."
Instead Biden has allowed Trump to twist in the wind sincerely hoping that he would overstep his bounds. That's f*cking dirty politics that puts people at risk, and Biden and the Democrats as a whole are culpable. He can condemn the general violence if he wants, but if he fails to provide Political support to effective action he's just farting in the breeze with his mouth.
2) What those around have said - Kamala Harris: paraphrasing, "The violence won't end once the election finishes and it shouldn't".
That's Bidemn's VP and the person most likely to be Prez in 2 years if Biden gets elected. WTH? You want to sit here and extoll Biden's viewpoints? What a loser.
deweather is being disingenuous at best.
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All-In [42000]
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Okay, Mountaineers.
Aug 31, 2020, 8:28 PM
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You should try a little harder to conceal your posting style with your new username.
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Standout [340]
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I've never seen such a bunch of 3rd grade girls so enamored
Aug 31, 2020, 8:57 PM
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with the idea of a "scok".
LOL - I'll stand up and #### on your birthday cake candles any day of the week, and for dang sure you'll know it's me. And for sure, I'm a dang site prettier than Mountaineers.
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Letterman [263]
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Re: Dismissing and/or celebrating murder for politics...
Aug 31, 2020, 4:03 PM
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My main takeaway from all of this is that letting the mob run wild brings nothing but chaos. Its like a ball of negative energy that cant help but attract more negative energy and chaos. Certainly not defending someone taking a weapon into one of these riots to play cop, but not all surprised that people are making poor decisions and killing/dying as a result. Local govmnts allowing this chaos to continue and failing to shut down the mob will only bring more of this unfortunately.
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Standout [340]
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What people are failing to deal with appropriately
Aug 31, 2020, 7:53 PM
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is that chaos was essentially the purpose of the Political planners behind these riots.
Their Sole Intent was to bait Trump into "inappropriately using force" so that they could in turn call him out as the "Dictator wannabe" that they've always said he is.
They thought they were golden because they never thought he'd have the patience to let things play out on the TV, and secondly, because they thought they could in the end blame the violence on Trump no matter what.
They have failed on all accounts.
People are in fact stupid when in groups - just apparently not that stupid.
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