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YOUR BALANCE
Questions about America's Divisiveness
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Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 9:22 AM

I believe right now is the most divided we've ever been in America during my lifetime (turning 42 next week, so born in 1978). Obviously not the most divided in our history (hey there, Ft. Sumter). So, I have these questions for the board, and I'll answer them myself.

1. Would you say this is the most divided you've ever seen America in your lifetime? I say yes.

2. If your answer is yes, what do you think is the single moment or action or cause that led us to this division? I argue it was the Clinton impeachment that first started this. It draw clear boundaries between a fairly evenly split Congress over whether or not the president's actions were impeachable. I think since then, both parties have been working to one-up each other.

I think a combination of ever-growing intentional bias in mainstream cable news and the rise of social media have further added fuel to this fire.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 9:25 AM

1. Without question


Reasons are the internet and 24 hour divisive cable news.

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Yes


Oct 28, 2020, 9:27 AM

I don't discount your premise....the Clinton impeachment didn't help.

I think it really took off with Obama. Speaking as a conservative, before Obama the left just considered you a fossil, dumb, or a rich a-hole, and the right just considered the left to be bleeding hearts who didn't think through their positions or leeches just seeking to enjoy the govt teat. In the Obama era, now you were a racist or worse for not having liberal ideals, and you were an anti-American commie for not sharing conservative ideals.

When you're just blanket assuming that people are racists seeking an all-white nation (or conversely Marxists out for the downfall of the country), it's hard to get much more divisive than that, because why would you want to find common ground with someone you believed that about?

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I say the same. It sounds petty these days but I sincerely


Oct 28, 2020, 10:08 AM

do not recall a president ever overtly leading just his constituents like Obama did. Reagan, HW, Clinton and W...no matter where they were in the political spectrum they appeared to lead the whole country. Obama didn’t. He seemed to treat his political opposition (meaning the citizens) with disdain.

Like I said, seems petty now since Trump has amped that behavior to an 11, but it’s always struck me...a great opportunity to unify the country and Obama went in the entirely different direction.

That’s not my answer to Cara’s question as to “when it began” (but yes, the most divided in my lifetime right now). I think that the social media and cable news have a lot to do with that, but haven’t really thought it through.

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null


hmm...


Oct 28, 2020, 10:18 AM

I agree with much of what you said, but I don't think Trump demonizes the citizens of this country who disagree with him. He is boorish dealing with the media and politicians he doesn't like (both parties). But I do not recall him calling a whole group of who disagree with him "chumps" or "deplorables." One might argue he hasn't had kind words for looters and rioters, but is that really being divisive?

Further, he has tried very hard to reach out to the Black community. I would suggest that he will garner the highest percentage of black votes for a "Republican" in history, at least recent history.

Finally, is Trump really Republican verses Democrat? He seems more of a populist and despite the crying that he is cowtowing to the rich, his policies have actually been very good for the working class.

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Ummm...


Oct 28, 2020, 10:27 AM

I agree with much of what you said, but I don't think Trump demonizes the citizens of this country who disagree with him.

He very much does this, and I would argue worse than any president I've ever seen. Examples provided upon request, but I'm surprised you haven't seen the cases where he has attacked citizens. Simply attacking leftist citizens qualifies, but there are other cases as well.

He's polling very poorly with blacks. He won't set any record with them.

Finally, is Trump really Republican verses Democrat? He seems more of a populist and despite the crying that he is cowtowing to the rich, his policies have actually been very good for the working class.


He's not technically R vs. D (he's not even a true R) and he is a populist as you say. Trump is all about loyalty, and that's where he pushes the division and the R vs. D. But he would gladly flip it around if he could make the D side be loyal to him instead.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Re: I say the same. It sounds petty these days but I sincerely


Oct 28, 2020, 10:35 AM [ in reply to I say the same. It sounds petty these days but I sincerely ]

I don't want to sound defensive about y'all's point about Obama, but i think an obstructionist Senate contributed to that particular aspect of the divisiveness.

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Exactly.


Oct 28, 2020, 10:48 AM

"Our only goal is to ensure that Obama is a one term President".-Mitch the #i###

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Re: Yes


Oct 28, 2020, 10:18 AM [ in reply to Yes ]

Completely agree that a big problem is the mind-reading of one's neighbor. "You voted for Trump so you're a racist."

The big problem is that when people assign evil motives to anyone who disagrees with them, they aren't going to listen in good faith. They'll create strawman arguments in place of the actual arguments being presented, and they'll insist that the strawman arguments are what the person "really" means.

Incidentally, accusing Obama's critics of racism has a predecessor in the G.W. Bush administration, which arose out of 9/11. At that time, if you didn't like what G.W. Bush and the Republican leadership were doing, then you weren't a patriot. "Traitor" was the "racist" of that time.

I can't think of a clearer example than Ann Coulter's 2004 book Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism. Another example was the rampant use of "You must really hate America" right here in the P&R, which (like the racist accusation) was so overused that it devolved into a joke.

"America, love it or leave it," critics were told. And if you criticized the Bush administration too much, it might be a crime against our country! After all, we're at war. Remember the Dixie Chicks "controversy"?

We're seeing the next version of this, which is that Biden supporters are woke gun-stealing communists who want to destroy America. It's a little amorphous at this point, but we actually saw something similar during the Clinton years (despite how socialistic Clinton was not).

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With the whole Trump voters = racist things, if


Oct 28, 2020, 10:32 AM

some of those folks would just change their behavior a bit maybe it goes away. Like maybe lay off the Trump flag on one side of a truck and the Confederate flag on the other. Or thinking every Hispanic person they see MS-13 or the Latin Kings or something.

On the other side of the coin, Liberals can maybe learn to listen to things that concern Conservatives without crying a bunch of insults back towards them.

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Re: With the whole Trump voters = racist things, if


Oct 28, 2020, 10:38 AM

That's very true. Part of the reason for the problem is that there are actual whackadoodles on any side of an issue and in support of any politician.

There's no error in accusing particular people based on their actual actions. The error is generalizing it and applying it to everyone who disagrees with you.

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There is also error internally.


Oct 28, 2020, 11:01 AM

The person who voted for Trump mainly because they feared what Hillary would do to taxes should have long ago told some Trump supporters to shut the hell up.

On the liberal side, they've got to find two or three thigs that really matter and back burner all the other stuff. Like maybe not worry so much about "free college" until we can sort out some criminal justice reform or find a good place for the homeless.

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Re: With the whole Trump voters = racist things, if


Oct 28, 2020, 10:38 AM [ in reply to With the whole Trump voters = racist things, if ]

Or just stop acting like he's your football team or a way of life. He's a president and you voted for him. Great. Pull for America, not a man.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


You're going old school P&R here!


Oct 28, 2020, 10:37 AM [ in reply to Re: Yes ]

Another example was the rampant use of "You must really hate America" right here in the P&R, which (like the racist accusation) was so overused that it devolved into a joke.

"America, love it or leave it," critics were told. And if you criticized the Bush administration too much, it might be a crime against our country! After all, we're at war. Remember the Dixie Chicks "controversy"?


Yep. Honestly, as much as we have some stupid fights now on this board, it was nothing like the truly hateful and sinister attitudes of some of the folks back then, who downright insinuated (or sometimes just said) people who criticized Bush or the war should be prosecuted for sedition or treason. I know some of those people even tried to dig up personal information on posters here to harm them.

The Internet was truly not for people like them.

Thankfully, I think most of those people have moved on. I know they formed their own little board where they could pat each others' butts.

Remember how one of them even tried to advocate criminality of wearing the American flag as a decoration in clothing? I think citing a Britney Spears outfit?

Good riddance to them.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


I forgot all about the super-secret board!***


Oct 28, 2020, 10:39 AM



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Here's a funny one about that...


Oct 28, 2020, 10:44 AM

I'm gonna violate the TMail rule or whatever. So, years later, and I think is when I just wasn't posting but lurking every now and then, one of them sent me an angry TMail because apparently someone from back in the day whom they thought was too liberal to be in their secret board club mentioned that he knew about it.

So this guy sends me a nastygram accusing me of spilling the beans. He's furious... over people finding out he had a secret club message board.

Of course, I had no idea what he was talking about and hadn't told the other random dude about it. I also didn't think it was a big deal because, well, grown men shouldn't be acting this childish. I told him I didn't do it, but he wouldn't believe it. Kept pitching a fit. So I finally I just said if I had done it, I would laugh in his face about it and not have a single ounce of regret for doing so.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Hold up, there's a tmail rule ?


Oct 28, 2020, 11:37 AM

Seriously ?

soccerkrzy® mentioned something about a "no list rule" ?


Where are these unwritten rules stated ?

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Re: Hold up, there's a tmail rule ?


Oct 28, 2020, 11:50 AM

The t-mail rule is a written rule.

"No posting of private t-mails without consent of the author or permission from the webmaster" - https://www.tigernet.com/rules.do


Crybaby T3 whined about me sharing a t-mail from B-Meist mocking him, it was great.


The no list "rule" was something established way back in the Mange about 7-8 years ago whenever I would create lists of the idiotic posters.

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Cole @ Beach Cole w/ Clemson Hat


I would think that lists of idiotic mange posters


Oct 28, 2020, 11:56 AM

would be:

a) extremely long

b) very useful


I guess I get the tmail thing

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It was, it was during Crump's supermod phase.***


Oct 28, 2020, 12:10 PM



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Cole @ Beach Cole w/ Clemson Hat


The Liberty and Justice board? Something like that.


Oct 28, 2020, 11:04 AM [ in reply to I forgot all about the super-secret board!*** ]

Imagine being so fragile you need to make a special board where nobody will disagree with you.

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They could have just joined Parler.***


Oct 28, 2020, 11:07 AM



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Not even just that...


Oct 28, 2020, 11:12 AM [ in reply to The Liberty and Justice board? Something like that. ]

But wanting to keep it secret. For some reason.

Like, just password protect it. There you go.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


I thought y'all were talking about SIF until this post


Oct 28, 2020, 11:29 AM [ in reply to The Liberty and Justice board? Something like that. ]

SIF was born out of wanting to get away from the politics in the Lounge. It was pretty bad. Especially in the 2004 election. Shoot, a well-known poster here joined SIF with the handle "political.asylum" to have a space away from the vitriol


I had no idea there was a "secret" board for political talk.


I'm conservative, I didn't vote for Trump and I enjoyed reading posts from phi and geechie. It was nice to have food for thought. Shame that's gone


Oh, and you must really hate America

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Point of order, sir!


Oct 28, 2020, 2:29 PM [ in reply to You're going old school P&R here! ]

I don't believe El Scorcho was a Bush supporter when he called the Secret Service on another poster (can't remember if it was Corny, Balconi, or similar).

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Re: Point of order, sir!


Oct 28, 2020, 2:30 PM

That's two McPoo references in one day!

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Re: Point of order, sir!


Oct 28, 2020, 3:22 PM [ in reply to Point of order, sir! ]

Oh man, I forgot about Scorch. And didn't realize he did that.

He was as nutty as some of those criticizing-Bush-is-treason-during-wartime nutjobs.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


It was crazy.


Oct 28, 2020, 3:25 PM

I'm 90% sure it was Corny, but the SS got their personal info from T-net and they got a personal visit from a couple agents based on Scorch dropping a dime and saying they represented a threat to Obama.

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Re: Yes


Oct 28, 2020, 11:01 AM [ in reply to Re: Yes ]

Spooneye,

I would just add this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbErkUE3Az0&ab_channel=NatBishop

Let me say to my conservatives friends here, that I do NOT discount that there are those on the left that can be just as dogmatic as conservatives, so I am not trying to accuse just one side here.

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Re: Yes


Oct 28, 2020, 2:38 PM [ in reply to Yes ]

Obama didn’t help, but people literally called him the antichrist when he got elected, so... hard to be super accommodating to that type of opposition

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literally?


Oct 28, 2020, 2:50 PM

I think that would be metaphorically.

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Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 9:29 AM

1. Yes

2. It's hard to nail it down to one thing. Your answer there is as good as mine. We are losing politicians that are willing to do the right thing regardless of party affiliation or personal bias. We have lost those on both sides of the aisle. You see glimpses of it, but once the pressure ramps up, most fold.

Hard to nail it down to one thing...probably been progressively moving since they got together and signed that paper.

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Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 9:49 AM

Politically yes. There are very few centrists in either party. The primary process has led to a lot of this. I absolutely think the 24/7 news has not helped lower the temperature. The country as a whole to me was more divided in the mid to late 60's. Major rioting occurred with large swaths of inner cities burned.In Detroit alone,43 people were killed and nearly 1400 buildings burned. There was widespread civil unrest over the Viet Nam war. The 1968 Democratic Convention was marred by open conflict between the antiwar protestors and the police. The Watts riots in LA in '65 led to 30 deaths and more than 600 stores being looted and burned. Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King were shot to death in '68. Radicals were bombing government buildings and killing police. Personally I think things in the country as a whole were worse. Racism was way worse in the 60's. However, politically I think we are in a much worse place. There is very little collegiality between those of the opposite parties. It seems that there is an effort to demonize and marginalize those with a difference.

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good thoughts


Oct 28, 2020, 10:08 AM

I don't think you need to be a centrist to have integrity and be objective. I actually prefer for people to have strong convictions. Discussing opposing ideas is where we learn and grow the most. We are losing the skill of debate and lost the true definition of liberalism in our country.

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Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 10:29 AM [ in reply to Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness ]

I was expecting to get 1968 as an answer, and had I lived then, I suspect I would agree. What ultimately do you think calmed that down?

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Jeff Flake's exit from politics really pained me.


Oct 28, 2020, 9:55 AM [ in reply to Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness ]

We need more like him, not less.

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Flake's name popped up as a possible member of


Oct 28, 2020, 10:23 AM

an incoming Biden administration.

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Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 11:11 AM [ in reply to Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness ]

Franc,

I think it was Speaker Sam Rayburn who said, "To get along (in Congress) you have to go along."

I think that over the years the vast majority of Congressmen have followed that adage. However, lately the ones that did not - the leaders of where to go along - have left that rat race or have been primaried by extremists in their own party.

A good example is our own Lindsey Graham. Once upon a time, he was a good Congressman - working with members of both parties to do what he thought was best for the country. Nowadays, his greatest threat is not from Democrats (at least until this year) but from more extreme Republicans. For his political survival, he has had to move continually rightward - until now he does not stand for anything but his survival. The country and our state suffer from this tendency of the last 20 years.

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Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 9:31 AM

In my lifetime or at least the portion in which I paid attention to politics, yes it's the most divisive.

I can't pinpoint a single moment, but will give you two broader changes in politics. One is the political platforms changing and the other is the 24 hours news cycle. When these two things come together you get an oversimplification of issues which leads to strong opinions. Climate change is a great example, but covid response is probably more salient. Reading this forum, you'd think that our only options are house arrest or pretend we're not in the middle of a pandemic. It's a lot easier to argue these extreme sides than dealing with nuance.

I was watching a comedy special a couple of weeks back, and it was strangely applicable to this discussion. They were talking about the dumbest things you have strong opinions about; think the correct way to hang toilet paper (underhand btw). There's a reason we have these strong opinions where our truths are so hard wired we just can't be wrong or understand why anyone would think differently.

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Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 11:13 AM

cac,

I agree with your point about nuance. We all seem so intent on winning an argument, that we cannot have a nuanced discussion - or work towards compromise.

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Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 12:07 PM

There's probably some "sociological other" effect mixed in there too. The more we think of ourselves as different the easier it is to vilify one another and harder it is to take each other's arguments seriously.

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Don't think it's necessarily a single moment.


Oct 28, 2020, 9:35 AM

It's a snowball effect, I think. The genesis of cable news might be viewed as starting the ball rolling. People get opinions on "news", which hardens their own opinions, which causes the "news" to want even more to cater to them, which causes further hardening....

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Re: Don't think it's necessarily a single moment.


Oct 28, 2020, 11:19 AM

Prodigal,

I agree. It's the devolution of news from educational to entertainment - and the blurring of those lines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbErkUE3Az0&ab_channel=NatBishop

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It's as divided now as it's been for 15 years.


Oct 28, 2020, 9:44 AM

It certainly doesn't seem to be getting any better. I also think the polarization is overstated because the craziest, most outlandish voices get the most attention. America isn't half Antifa and half Proud Boys.

I'd trace a lot of the political problems back to Nixon, but the Information Age plays a major role in polarization. News sources are balkanized so partisans can go unchallenged in their ideological safe spaces.

At the most basic level I think people are forgetting why we have the press, politics, and government.

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Re: It's as divided now as it's been for 15 years.


Oct 28, 2020, 11:25 AM

Murcielago,

I agree, but i wanted to ask you if you think our long existing tribalism has led to (& been exacerbated by) balkanization ?

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It's a bit chicken and the egg.


Oct 28, 2020, 12:05 PM

I think tribalism and polarization led to balkanized news and information which then reinforces tribalism and polarization.

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Re: It's a bit chicken and the egg.


Oct 28, 2020, 12:43 PM

Yes, it is a vicious cycle.

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Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 9:47 AM

1. Yep, and I think we are still in a free fall in that department.

2. I think yo are on to something with the Clinton Impeachment. Then the Bush v. Gore election being murky caused the levy to break. This led to the liberal folks feeling like they were stolen from, even though Florida would not have mattered had Gore managed to win his own state(I really hope I am remembering that right.) Then we got to all the gay marriage and general evangelical stuff and the War on Terror being like it is.

Now we've got like 34% red, 34% blue and 32% of us who wish the reds and blues would line up and have a Game of Thrones style battle and eliminate themselves so we can get on about our life, liberty, and purist of happiness.

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Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 11:27 AM

aero,

That made me lol. But I think the numbers are 25 % red 25% blue and 50% purple that wish we could work on our common ground.

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I wish the % was that low. If it were, then there would be 3


Oct 28, 2020, 12:07 PM

parties.

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We live in a historic era that is like the combination of


Oct 28, 2020, 9:48 AM

the Industrial Revolution (in this case though, the tech revolution) and the Gutenberg Press (internet/info access).

The first thing has disrupted business and threatened the entire Middle Class. Policies such as NAFTA did not help. So a lot of the angst we see on both sides among the people are simply folks who are scared that they will never be solidly in the middle class they way two or three generations ahead of them were. And they see the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer (btw, wages went up in the first three years of DJT).

The second thing allows any idiot to say any thing he or she wants and others will believe and follow them. Yes, talk radio started some of this, but the internet put it on steroids.

We are probably NOT as divided as we were when I was born (1967). After all, when was the last political assassination? BUT, we are divided and a Biden/Harris presidency will widen the divide.

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The divide is going to get worse either way.


Oct 28, 2020, 9:59 AM

I figure about the only way to start to close it is for Biden to win and pretty much have a stalemate of a presidency. Few major changes, new taxes, and all that. During that time the GOP would need to distance from Trump and his bombastic behavior.

If Trump wins, the loud folks on both sides are only going to get louder.

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I hope the GOP does a reset.


Oct 28, 2020, 10:09 AM

The GOP is the party of principles (or at least it used to be).

Trump Jr. 2024? HAIL. NO.

Let's get back to basics and AWAY from BS wedge issues like abortion (I hate that crap).

The candidate who can take up Trump's issues (jobs, the economy, better trade deals, lower taxes), add to it feasible ideas on healthcare and the costs of college, and not be the immature a$$hole Trump is at times, will be very appealing.

This person is only going to come from the GOP or a third party.

The Dems are too far gone down the elitist/LGBTQ+/BLM/Socialist coalition they have cobbled together.

Another thing that could happen and would help is ranked choice voting. I don't want the Electoral College done away with because all that does is widen the urban/rural divide.

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I'm not going to do this research myself on account of how


Oct 28, 2020, 10:15 AM

long it would take, but I am curious to see how past elections would have gone had a candidate been awarded a percentage of each states' electoral votes. Say a state has 10 vote. One candidate gets 60% of the votes, they get 6 points. I think this is a way to make everyone feel like their vote counts.

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Here’s the problem—-all those things you said?


Oct 28, 2020, 10:17 AM [ in reply to I hope the GOP does a reset. ]

Good stuff, all, but not a one of em involve fixing the deficit and in turn, the debt.

No ones going to win with that on their platform, so we are left whistling through the graveyard until ultimately, we aren’t.

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Deficits do not matter. Fiat currency. MMT.


Oct 28, 2020, 10:34 AM

https://twitter.com/StephanieKelton

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I sure hope the countries that we owe trillions to


Oct 28, 2020, 2:34 PM

read that book.

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Re: We live in a historic era that is like the combination of


Oct 28, 2020, 10:01 AM [ in reply to We live in a historic era that is like the combination of ]

Thanks to the internet, it's now easier to catch people BEFORE they assassinate a presidential candidate or kidnap the governor of Michigan, so there's that.

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In 1967 the divisions were related to very real issues.


Oct 28, 2020, 10:08 AM [ in reply to We live in a historic era that is like the combination of ]

Civil Rights, Vietnam War, etc.

Today the divisions are manufactured.

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The shrinking middle class is very real.


Oct 28, 2020, 10:13 AM

That's why Yang's $1K/month proposal makes sense.

And the virus will have a longer-term impact on jobs than the Great Recession did. The virus has accelerated automation to the point that millions of jobs will never come back.

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Agree, but I don't believe it is causing division.


Oct 28, 2020, 10:26 AM

Everything and anything is being manipulated to divide by those profiting off division and/or subsequently using division for political power. We've put the cart before the horse, division now leads the issues (nowhere) instead of following the issues.

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Re: We live in a historic era that is like the combination of


Oct 28, 2020, 11:31 AM [ in reply to We live in a historic era that is like the combination of ]

ATL,

Many good points. I would suggest that the angst derives mainly from the shifting of monetary rewards from the middle class to the very rich see attached).

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Yes.


Oct 28, 2020, 9:51 AM

I blame Rush Limbaugh who proved that one could get rich peddling idelogical division.

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Re: Yes.


Oct 28, 2020, 10:22 AM

Clinton was also the first president in my lifetime who was the subject of ludicrous fake news. Limbaugh and Newsmax were top offenders. I once wrote a paper on the Ron Brown "murder" story.

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Definitely the most divided in my lifetime


Oct 28, 2020, 9:56 AM

since I started paying attention to politics, etc in my late teens.

Instead of ‘adding fuel to the fire’, I think social media and the 24 hour news cycle are the primary causes...along with right wing radio. And I say that as someone who actually used to like to listen to Rush back in the day.

If you haven’t watched The Social Dilemma’ on Netflix...it’s worth the time IMO.

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Yes and it will only get worse until


Oct 28, 2020, 10:09 AM

folks put down their phones.

In a word, the cause is INTERNET.

Too much info too quick. Too much disinfo. Too much opinion. Too much opinion presented as fact.

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Re: Yes and it will only get worse until


Oct 28, 2020, 11:33 AM

Yes, let's talk face to face again.

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Yes .. many excellent points already made. My add...


Oct 28, 2020, 10:12 AM

Too many folks simply lack respect and tolerance for the other side. Social media magnifies anger, disrespect and even hatred. Media portrays the other side as evil and in-American.

Seems there are fewer people who can simply say “Fine if that’s the way you feel, vote that way. Let’s have a beer and watch football.”

Democracy demands that there is always a viable other side. Otherwise one side can can steer too far right or left. The alternative to change via voting and a peaceful transition creates a safeguard and balanced approach to issues. There’s are reasons that historically our best economic performance happen when there is a “divided” government in Washington.

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Re: Yes .. many excellent points already made. My add...


Oct 28, 2020, 10:23 AM

Agree. Two of my closest friends are liberals. I am not. We enjoy hashing it out. Sometimes I rethink things a bit and vice versa. We share many more things in common outside of politics and remain close. I disagree with most of their views but respect their defense of their views. The reciprocal is true. I wish we could get back to that. Tip O'Neill and Reagan's relationship as Speaker of the House and President was lightning years from Pelosi and Trump's personal relationship. It's ok to have political differences, even sharp ones, however it shouldn't become personal.

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You should have lived during the Vietnam years....


Oct 28, 2020, 10:21 AM

Gubmint soldiers killed students back then.

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Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 10:50 AM

As a older guy, I recognize the seriousness of where we are now but I would also point some of you younger guys to the 1960s. Civil rights, the Vietnam war, women's issues, assassinations, riots, etc. It was pretty rough but we manage to resolve much of it - at least mostly.

I think that the massive number of media outlets (we had three TV stations back in the day) exacerbates our issues today. Hundreds of outlets, each using sensationalism to try to reach their own small niche audience (bubble). And so many different angles on the events of the day that it is hard to recognize some consensus about what is real.

Social media also contributes to this bubble effect. It actually magnifies it. And the concept of actually doing some research and finding out the real evidence for a position seems to go out of the window.

But perhaps the worst aspect of social media is the coarseness of discussion - fueled by anonymity. I truly believe that if the liberals on this board could sit down over a couple of beers with the most reactionary members, we would all constrain our worst instincts and find that we have much more in agreement than we do in difference.

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Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 11:27 AM

1) yes
2) interwebs; easy access to wrong information.

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Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 11:35 AM

Excellent (& civil) discussion.

The next question: What can we do to ameliorate this decisiveness and come together to some extent ?

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What worries me about your last question...


Oct 28, 2020, 11:38 AM

Is that I'm afraid we may have hit a point of no return. But maybe that's naive to think that given how we've healed in the past.

I hate to say this, too. Would it take another 9/11 to unite us? But even then, we split even more once the rubble had been cleared.

I do think having national leaders who try to end such talk and push messages of unity would be a good starting point.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Re: What worries me about your last question...


Oct 28, 2020, 12:52 PM

Cat,

Leaders would help, but i think we could help ourselves, too. Talking reasonably to each other despite our differences. i am not sure how to make it happen, but I also don't know how democracy can work if we don't.

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Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 12:14 PM [ in reply to Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness ]

We all need to make an effort to agree on what the issues are and find some universal truths to start from and move out from there. Say to one another "hey, people who are willing and able to work shouldn't be worried about affording food or housing" and then pitch different solutions. If you want a covid example, agree that both of these are true: we don't want people to die AND restrictions on businesses hurt the economy. Now that you can agree on these extremes of the argument, you can work your way into the middle.

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Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 12:45 PM [ in reply to Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness ]

RBG who had virtually nothing in common philosophically or from a religious perspective was very good friends with Antonin Scalia.In her book-My Own Words- she mentioned Scalia who felt it was ok to attack ideas, not people because "some very good people have some very bad ideas." I don't know how we get to a better level of civility again, but it begins with us as individuals. I would recommend the book Civility by Stephen Carter. He has some nice points and it's a short read. He uses the metaphor that we are fellow passengers on the train of life. Right now, if often feels that the train has derailed.

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Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 11:45 AM

It all start under Obama. Then when Trump won in 2016 the Dems. were outraged because they thought it was in the bag. They were rioting as soon as he was elected. Calling for people to blow up the white house. You name it. Its all on the Dems like it or not.

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You're kind of proving my point.***


Oct 28, 2020, 1:24 PM



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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Re: You're kind of proving my point.***


Oct 28, 2020, 4:41 PM

The plan is to divide Americans into tribes and then it will all fall apart. This will give rise to the socialist democrat AKA as communist then Nikita Khrushchev prophecy will have come true.

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yes and the answer as to why is pretty easy


Oct 28, 2020, 12:03 PM

social media. creation of algorithms to turn echo chambers into profit centers has expedited the divisiveness. This led to the news outlets doing much of the same in order to keep up and make the same profits.

if we can't agree on facts, or truths, we're completely ######. check mate society.

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Re: yes and the answer as to why is pretty easy


Oct 28, 2020, 12:57 PM

Agreed,

Someone earlier mentioned watching The Social Dilemma on Netflix. I highly recommend it.

How do we wean ourselves off of something that palys to our most basic (subliminal) instincts and yet is proving to be bad for us.

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yes, we are divided more than ever


Oct 28, 2020, 1:05 PM

and this PandR board shows how it happens.

I am passionate about politics and how I feel about this Nation. On this board I lose my absolute #### at times towards people like soccerkrzy® 19B® FBCoachSC® Tiggity® because we all think differently and I get so pissed and sometimes drunk and pissed and lose my crap and just hurl insults and yell and kick and scream.

If we were all at a bar together, I wouldn't lose my crap. I would get animated and take a shot of whiskey and laugh at their answers and would all laugh together.

The internet has ruined so many great relationship and now people that would typically get along otherwise, hate each other. Its ridiculous.

Between forums, facebook, twitter.....we no longer listen to each other, we just yell at each other and then that fuels the divisiveness. If we all had to meet in the basement of a library or a bar to talk all of these things out, we would 100% be more united.

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Re: yes, we are divided more than ever


Oct 28, 2020, 1:25 PM

Hey, does that include the time you lost your mind on me a few weeks ago?

But I do agree with you on how we talk to our friends online.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Agree...


Oct 28, 2020, 1:28 PM [ in reply to yes, we are divided more than ever ]

And I would also say that much of the devision is by design, perpetrated on us by the two parties and claim to represent us. All the dem and pub parties care about is power. Neither is really interested in helping Americans beyond that which helps them retain and expand that power. Of course, this has always been true to an extent, but even as recently as the 80’s both sides could come together to pass meaningful legislation, even going against their own party platform if it made sense at the time and given the circumstances. Too many reps and senators no longer willing to compromise...I really am afraid the whole process is broken.

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America would truly be a better place if we could all just


Oct 28, 2020, 5:21 PM [ in reply to yes, we are divided more than ever ]

accept more invitations into basements with strangers.

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Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 3:03 PM

1. Yes

2. Apple inventing iPhone. --> Social media.

2a. Followed closely behind Obama judging the very first "cops are killing blacks" case from the oval office having seen 15 s of video. Not sure which one that was, but that was the beginning of the deep race divide.

2b. Followed by the USA being too successful as a capitalist, market-driven economy. Causing people to not understand what it is and why it works.

2c. Closely related to 2b is the associated dumbing down of Americans. We, as a population, don't build chit anymore (compared to decades ago) - we are an entertainment based economy. Ever heard of Rome?

Comment on Clinton impeachment...people used to have morals, even dems. Getting a fcking BJ in the WH by a intern and lying about it should be an impeachable offense. Suggesting Clinton's impeachment was the turning point is applying the todays low/no democrat morals on yesteryear.

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Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 6:24 PM

Getting a fcking BJ in the WH by a intern and lying about it should be an impeachable offense.

Yeah, I thought so then and think so now. So why do you give Trump a blind pass for using campaign funds to pay off a #### star to keep quiet?

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Re: Questions about America's Divisiveness


Oct 28, 2020, 3:24 PM

1. Yes

2. Would put much of the lack of discourse and civility on the explosion of 24/7 "news" outlets and its mutant offspring social media, and the resultant narrowing down of exposure to competing ideas.

I would also assign some culpability to the political gerrymandering that has seemingly grown significantly over the years, whereby candidates are more often only having to compete in a primary election instead of a general election. This provides us, ultimately, with more fringe and intransient positions that aren't necessarily representative of even a majority of voters in a particular district, but moreso just the majority of a majority in that district. Where compromise used to be a magnificent trait and hallmark of our democracy and how we tackled real challenges, now it's considered a weakness where getting out-primaried is more of a threat than inaction.

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That's a solid point


Oct 28, 2020, 5:23 PM

about gerrymandering and winning primaries. I posted about platforms changing and this is certainly tied into it.

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In many ways, yes. I think a lot of it has to do with the


Oct 28, 2020, 5:28 PM

blurring of the line between actual news reporting, and infotainment. Most people now don't even know the difference. All part of the 24/7 news cycle via cable and internet.

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