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Trainer [40]
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Baseball and Support
May 17, 2015, 6:58 PM
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It cracks me up that everyone on this board want Jack fired. Jack isn't the issue the real issue is the support that Clemson Fans give its athletes especially basketball and baseball and others. If you have traveled with the baseball team you see that they play better on the road where they are not berated constantly by their own fans. It's sad to sit in the stands and hear people belittle these athletes that they pay admission to support and watch. People on here want to say the decline in wins is because of Jack and his recruiting. Well you are partially right. It is recruiting because recruits hear the boos, the recruits read this sight and hear all the complaining. So why as a recruit would you want to come to Clemson and play any sport when Clemson fans are so not supportive. So yes, Jack is losing the recruiting but not because of him but because of the fans who show their true colors by not staying the whole game and belittling them.
Another reason that Jack and the other sports are not doing the winning like football is unlike football the money isn't being pumped into them. Let's be honest, all you Tommy Bowden haters are going to hate this but he would still be here if he had two coordinators making over $800,000 and a million and not $220,000. I understand that football makes a hell of a lot more money than the other sports but it upsets me that people complain but you look at the difference in facility upgrades and the amount of people that football has now compared to 7 years ago and look at the results with recruiting and wins. The same would happen with all sports including baseball. Want evidence look at USC who built a new stadium and guess what they won two National Championships and went to a third. All the other big schools in this state, Coastal and CofC have done upgrades and pumped money into baseball and you see what happens. Kids today want to play immediately and not sit at a bigger school like in the past so that is another reason that smaller schools are competitive than in the past, aka UC Irvine, Kent State, Fresno State, Coastal Carolina, and CofC.
The final thing that makes me sick is that people on here say that the players hate Jack. If you actually went to games and come before the game you would see that the players love Jack and his staff. If you talk to the players you would know that Jack isn't uptight and is looser than ever. If we get the new coach that so many of you want I hope he is a hell of a recruiter because if Jack gets canned then the majority of this team will be gone. Most of you on this site would be grateful for that but when you lose the whole team that new coach will be taking some hits for years to come replacing everyone. The only reason Matthew Crownover came back was Jack, the only reason Tyler Krieger came back was Jack so this year with the Juniors who could get drafted the only reason they may come back would be Jack. Yet everyone wants to get rid of the man. I also hope that the new building is truly paid for otherwise when Jack is canned per all of you that building may get stopped since most of that money came from his former players. Which would be really funny for the new coach to not only have to recruit all new players but have to do it by saying yes at Clemson we are in a temporary locker room not at our stadium, we have no bathrooms and the building that would supply all of that isn't going to be built for a while until I can get to know other boosters to ask for support. What coach would want to come in with that situation besides a head coach at a truly smaller school which none of you want. Also what new coach wants to come in and deal with the lack of support from fans, the administration and others that Jack has received along with the lack of funding that this program is compared to other big schools in regards to players' scholarships, the facilities, and the coaches pay. All of you can forget Corbin and Sully coming back because they are at schools that support their program and provide them with what they need financially. Also it would be a great job but other coaches would be hesitant about coming to a school that canned a coach who got them to the regionals 21 of the last 22 years. Yes, expectations are high at Clemson and should be but you want to get rid of a coach who did all this without the support that others schools get from boosters and administration. You all want to complain about him not making the World Series Championship yet twice he got us a game away from it. Yes, we lost to the Gamecocks which sucked but you know what the great coach, Wilhelm never got us that close or that far as Jack did. Coach W was a great competitor and a great coach but I'm tired of people saying our program has gone down with Jack. He got us to the College World Series 6 times the same as Wilhelm, and has more wins over #1 ranked teams than Wilhelm so your arguments are mute because they both have done the same job and if given the same time table would probably have the exact same results.
So basically quit your complaining and get behind this team, this coaching staff and the support staff and finally put your money where your mouth is and support them and all our Clemson sports. But again this is also the same fans on this site who complained about their beloved Dabo when he couldn't win against USC and wanted him fired so I guess nothing is good enough for you on this board.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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I agree....
May 17, 2015, 7:08 PM
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Most great athletes aren't self motivated and end up failing because they don't have enough support. I'm going to go sniff some more glue now. Excuse me.
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Orange Blooded [2438]
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That's not healthy. We need you for the stretch run this week.***
May 17, 2015, 7:25 PM
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Commissioner [923]
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You are so correct in your long post.
May 17, 2015, 7:21 PM
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Except not all on here are after Jack. But probably 95% are. Go Tigers!
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Associate AD [842]
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That is the same argument that was given to keep
May 17, 2015, 7:28 PM
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Coach Bowden. I always heard,"We will lose all our recruits if Bowden is fired". We did lose a few (the safety from Rock Hill who went to USC and the safety who went to LSU), but I would say it has worked out. If Coach Leggett is recruiting guys who have no desire to be at Clemson and only want to play for him, that is a problem.
If you think the Clemson basketball and baseball teams are the only ones to hear boos, you are delusional. Cole heard them all year, and then a coaching change happened. I believed he played a lot better when it did.
Bottom line is that coaching is a job that clearly tells you if you are winning or losing. The school and the AD set the standard and the W/L lines will tell you how the coach is doing right now. The question is what is Clemson's standard, and is it being met?
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Re: That is the same argument that was given to keep
May 17, 2015, 7:37 PM
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GREAT POST!!!!!!!! and NO our standards are not being met!! past time for a change
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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Cole heard the boos all year from people that only
May 17, 2015, 9:00 PM
[ in reply to That is the same argument that was given to keep ] |
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support you when things are going great. The same ones booing him were calling him a hero after the bowl game. What a joke. Those are the people that thankfully don't make up the core of Clemson fans that support the players and coaches win or lose. The only thing I can do is support the team, others make the calls on hiring and firing and I am not arrogant enough to think I have the knowledge to make those calls.
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110%er [6937]
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110%er [5430]
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Orange Blooded [2609]
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Re: Baseball and Support
May 17, 2015, 7:30 PM
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Well if thats the case then usuck must bash their players lol!!!!!!!!!! Ask leadcoot
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Orange Blooded [2609]
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Re: Baseball and Support
May 17, 2015, 7:31 PM
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Well if thats the case then usuck must bash their players lol!!!!!!!!!! Ask leadcoot
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: Baseball and Support
May 17, 2015, 7:37 PM
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We lost to PC and western Carolina this season, enough said.
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Freshman [8]
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Re: Baseball and Support
May 17, 2015, 7:49 PM
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Clemson Baseball also played hard against a #3 team in the country and won one of the games. They also went on the road to SWEEP the #8 team in the country.
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Trainer [40]
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Re: Baseball and Support
May 17, 2015, 8:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: Baseball and Support ] |
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Thanks for proving my point that you don't follow closely enough because we beat the crap out of Western Carolina both times this year and didn't lose to them. Yes PC and (Wofford). But we also went 5-2 against current top 25 teams and 7-3 if you count UNC who just dropped out last week. LSU loss to Nicholls and Vandy lost to Indiana State and Santa Clara and USuC who beat top teams like Texas AM, Vandy and LSU also lost to Coastal Carolina, PC, Winthrop, and Furman. Just shows that anything can happen in the baseball and that there is parity in this game.
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Orange Blooded [2217]
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I have always been behind the team,not so with Jack
May 17, 2015, 8:01 PM
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Jack has been getting out coached for a long time which has lead to poor recruiting , the booing has magnified that.I have really never been big on Jack ,but most of the fans turned when the coots beat us in the series while we had way more talent.Jack has one of the best camps in the country & is a great teacher. His down fall is game day coaching.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: I have always been behind the team,not so with Jack
May 17, 2015, 8:03 PM
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What does it mean you were never big on Jack? Like, you actively questioned Wilhelm bringing him here in 1992. Or was it those early years as head coach that did him in?
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Orange Blooded [2217]
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Jack had success early when he was new,I noticed after
May 17, 2015, 8:43 PM
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a few years that he was predictable trying to be aggressive .I bet his teams have been put out stealing more than most teams, although that has improved as of late. I wish I could think Jack could stay & Clemson improve but I don't see it, especially with to negativity . Thats not Jacks fault but the result is the same
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All-In [28802]
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Wouldn't that be a reason to take the fans to task?
May 17, 2015, 8:50 PM
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That's basically what the OP was saying, except you just accept it. Either the negativity is rational and connected to the way the team's playing, or it's at least a little bit irrational. I think fans have some good reason to complain, but way too many people just have this "feeling" of dislike for Leggett- like you do- and they jump all over him whenever anything goes wrong.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Jack had success early when he was new,I noticed after
May 17, 2015, 10:04 PM
[ in reply to Jack had success early when he was new,I noticed after ] |
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I looked it up for another poster earlier but his most successful seasons have been his most aggressive - at least as measured by steals. 3 CWS seaosns were in top 5 in steals. And the total deviation in success stealing was less than 10% different from best to worst stealing percentage. Redundancy cripples our ability to be objective. Someone tells us Jack is stealing too much. We see a runner thrown out and we feel that is validated. But we don't have any context and don't actually know what the percentages are. When White was thrown out yesterday it was with 2 outs and 2 strikes on Duggar. Is it really a bad place to go for the steal. If the steal succeeds then Duggar simply needs a single to score a run. If it fails Duggar, who has been phenomenal getting on base, gets a fresh count and we start the inning at the heart of our order. Not a bad call in my book but to everyone slamming our baserunning it's just more bad coaching and running.
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Legend [18539]
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Dabo has had steady improvement. Jack...steady decline.
May 17, 2015, 8:06 PM
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Not the same thing.
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Scout Team [178]
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Re: Dabo has had steady improvement. Jack...steady decline.
May 17, 2015, 8:20 PM
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Clemson fans clamor for new coaches all the time and then when they get the new one they start up again. If Clemson was such an athletic hot bed then why wouldn't top notch coaches leave successful programs to come here? I guess the seven conference championships and 2 national titles since Hatfield was run out of town must not impress them.
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Re: Dabo has had steady improvement. Jack...steady decline.
May 17, 2015, 8:25 PM
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what sport do we have 7 conference champs and 2 national titles???? what time lapse does this cover??I have to confess this is news to me!! how many of U guys knew this??????????????
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CU Guru [1123]
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Re: Dabo has had steady improvement. Jack...steady decline.
May 17, 2015, 8:28 PM
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lite, we got 2 nat soccer titles
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Scout Team [178]
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Re: Dabo has had steady improvement. Jack...steady decline.
May 17, 2015, 8:31 PM
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My point exactly...what is this 'mystical Clemson Standard' that has to be met? When was the last time Clemson played for a National title in Football, basketball, or baseball?
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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110%er [6937]
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CU Medallion [56713]
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Baseball is a HUGE money loser. Can't compare to football.***
May 17, 2015, 8:31 PM
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All-TigerNet [14451]
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Re: Baseball is a HUGE money loser. Can't compare to football.***
May 17, 2015, 8:36 PM
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uh baseball is not a huge money loser. it is certainly not football or basketball but it is not a money loser.
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CU Medallion [56713]
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Varsity [203]
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Re: Baseball and Support
May 17, 2015, 8:38 PM
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Sorry....your novel is #@!t.
For example....our track facilities are 2nd rate and they continue to recruit and win.So spare us the "build it and they will come"---time is here for a change in baseball(and not just the assistants as "scape goats") Further note... Women's ACC Track Championship yesterday and Men moving to 4th from 11th last year.Women have won more ACC titles in the past 10 years than any other sport.Also,our NEW track coach recruited 2 female athletes for Fall 2015 over Oregon(in case you don't know track Oregon is THE standard)and he did it with sub standard facilities.If you want to reward a program with some upgrades and keep it at a National level tell D Rad to give some "crumbs" to track and stop your whining about baseball.Note...the new addition at DKS.Don't tell me Track is a "non rev" sport.Baseball is a "cash cow"?Please!!
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Scout Team [178]
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Re: Baseball and Support
May 17, 2015, 8:40 PM
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Haaaaa awesome...keep patting yourself on the back with the track and golf and rowing then LOL.
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Scout Team [178]
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Re: Baseball and Support
May 17, 2015, 8:41 PM
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You and six other people in the world can name the last National Champs in those sports.
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Varsity [203]
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Re: Baseball and Support
May 17, 2015, 9:07 PM
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Obviously you're a "one dimensional".Can YOU name the last national Champions in baseball-- right you got 2 of them. BTW....I can name them in Track and Golf probably not rowing. Do you think the student athletes in track and golf put in LESS time than athletes in other sports.So that makes their work and Championships won less relevant? Right... you wouldn't have a clue sitting on a couch.
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Orange Blooded [2438]
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Not to quibble....... but
May 17, 2015, 9:04 PM
[ in reply to Re: Baseball and Support ] |
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Why diss on programs we field that actually have ACCOMPLISHED something? Okay, you don't attend them. That's fair - I don't either. But I respect the heck out of their championships. I don't see them mired in mediocrity and using "parity" as excuses. Just saying.
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110%er [5430]
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Re: Baseball and Support
May 18, 2015, 11:08 AM
[ in reply to Re: Baseball and Support ] |
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I think he is talking Clemson sports? What's your problem
Message was edited by: armsb®
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All-In [28802]
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Clemson has had great fan support in baseball
May 17, 2015, 8:47 PM
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That's why it's been kind of shocking to see (on TV, so my perception could be wrong) how empty the stadium is even for big series against teams like UofL. Some people said there were lots of empty seats against USC, and at that point in the year there was still a lot of optimism. In the past, the only thing limiting the number of people inside the Doug for games against USC was the Fire Marshall. So it's clear that the fan support has declined a bit.
But that didn't just happen arbitrarily. In the last 6-7 years, we've missed the post-season (and will probably miss the tournament again this year) and have only hosted one regional. We have only gone beyond the regional level twice, and the last time we did that was in 2010. Last year, we embarrassed ourselves in the regional against Oregon. We also have had a really hard time beating South Carolina, FSU, UVa, and UNC. Finally, unless we go on a crazy run to finish out this year, we're going to finish with less than 40 wins in 3 out of the last 4 years.
A lot of that stuff wouldn't be so bad for a school with a lesser tradition of baseball, but it's going to make people restless at Clemson. Then there's also the fact that a significant number of our fans, for whatever reason, have never liked Leggett. Some of them seem to be happier when we screw up so that they can complain more about Leggett. I've heard multiple people say we don't want highly successful coaches from other schools because they're "just like Leggett," as if they'd still be upset if we were having the same success we had with Leggett before 2011.
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Scout Team [178]
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Re: Clemson has had great fan support on baseball
May 17, 2015, 8:52 PM
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The fans I talked to that went to FSU said that even though the Noles had dropped four in a row and two to 'lowly Clemson' the fans still showed up for the Saturday game and were cheering like crazy. Now they did do the ole Clemson '7th inning stretch and split' but they were also getting beat 9-1.
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CU Medallion [60205]
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FSU stands weren't half full for any game this weekend***
May 17, 2015, 9:00 PM
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Freshman [8]
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Re: Clemson has had great fan support on baseball
May 17, 2015, 9:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: Clemson has had great fan support on baseball ] |
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Those FSU fans who were left in the stands were still CHEERING for their team unlike what Clemson "fans" do.
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CU Medallion [60205]
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I must sit in a different section than you at games
May 17, 2015, 9:18 PM
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I missed one home game this season (was sick) and the fans around me all cheer hard for the team. Yeah I hear a disparaging quip mumbled from time to time, but not anything a player could hear.
No, we don't sing "Oh Canada" or have an annoying "K-time" chant, or fat people running around the concourses, but we have good supportive fans who come out game after game to support the team. Baseball isn't a game people typically yell and stand the whole game; never has been.
Yeah, attendance is down, because it is down everywhere in every sport (even football) due to televison/internet TV coverage. People just don't do live sports like they once did, media coverage has dealt a laziness deathblow on sports attendance except for really huge games. It's too easy just to go home and dial it up on the broadband.
Have you been to other teams ballparks or watched on TV to compare those crowds to Clemsons? Not much better these days.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Clemson has had great fan support on baseball
May 17, 2015, 9:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: Clemson has had great fan support on baseball ] |
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ipsy and this guy are old accounts and have only every participated in the same threads...
SCOKS confirmed...
What is your real screen name coward?
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110%er [5430]
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Re: Clemson has had great fan support on baseball
May 18, 2015, 12:58 PM
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Do you disagree with ipsy?
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All-TigerNet [14451]
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Re: Clemson has had great fan support on baseball
May 17, 2015, 8:53 PM
[ in reply to Clemson has had great fan support in baseball ] |
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fsu has a pretty good tradition i would say. did you see their 1/2 full stadium at best this weekend for a series against a rival and your team going for a national seed. cooterville this year has looked like a ghost town. cant really give you all the reasons. i do think if we had played all year like we have been playing lately we would see much better attendance. fans everywhere are very fickle.
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All-In [28802]
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True, didn't look full at FSU either
May 17, 2015, 8:59 PM
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I was interested to see that we only finished with 7 less wins than FSU this year, and yet they were the #8 team going into our series and we weren't even sniffing the top 25. Those mid-week good really cost us this year.
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Scout Team [193]
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Re: Clemson has had great fan support on baseball
May 18, 2015, 12:59 AM
[ in reply to Re: Clemson has had great fan support on baseball ] |
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One other reason that we have a low turnout of fans this year has been the weather. This has been the worst season I have seen for the weather. So many weekends have been raining or cold or both.
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110%er [6937]
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Re:We all agree that Wofford, Gardner Webb and Winthrop put
May 17, 2015, 9:09 PM
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more money in their programs.
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CU Medallion [58376]
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I don't disagree that one reason football has been so
May 17, 2015, 9:10 PM
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successful compared to the other sports is because of the money, but I think it's a lot more than that. In fact, I agree that the higher-ups have let both baseball and basketball slip into their current states, and the are largely responsible. I also agree that most of the players probably do love Jack, even though I have no way of knowing.
I have considered all of that, however, and none of it makes any difference one way or the other with regards to how I feel about Jack and his situation here. He's been a great coach and great for Clemson, and I don't hate him by any means, but the baseball program needs new life, and it needs a new coach. I think it's clearly time for Jack to go, whether it's all his fault or not.
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CU Medallion [67693]
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Re: I don't disagree that one reason football has been so
May 17, 2015, 9:24 PM
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thats where I am too. I just think there are some errors and things that should get corrected but dont. I think players have become tone deaf to the message or something.
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CU Medallion [58376]
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I don't know exactly what it is, but I know Jack is the head
May 17, 2015, 9:40 PM
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coach and the team has been on a downward trajectory for several years. I just don't see the problems as the kind that money alone can fix, even though that has to be part of it.
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Orange Blooded [2438]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1295
Joined: 6/13/11
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Everything you and Smiling say....plus the elephant(s) in the room. 2002 and 2010.
May 17, 2015, 9:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: I don't disagree that one reason football has been so ] |
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It's tragically unfair. This gentleman just happened to be our head baseball coach at the precise moment when our arch rival had their best coach and teams in any sport. I would be LYING if I said it didn't kill me to see them knock us out of our own shot at a National Championship in baseball. Twice. I'm not proud to admit that it caused me to view Coach Leggett more critically. But I'll be honest enough to admit that it did. He has forgotten more baseball than I'll ever know. But it seems like the ghosts of those close brushes with the mountain top just won't go away.
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Legend [19352]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 22266
Joined: 4/25/04
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Re: Baseball and Support
May 17, 2015, 9:40 PM
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A nice wall of BS and excuses....
1 championship in 20 years...
steadily declining winning percentages...
terrible fielding and baserunning year in and year out...
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Scout Team [178]
TigerPulse: 93%
Posts: 311
Joined: 10/22/13
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Re: Baseball and Support
May 17, 2015, 10:19 PM
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I did not mean to say that one sport put in any more work than any other. I go to many athletic events and have attended track, lacrosse, rowing and soccer along with the big three. I also noticed in the SEC track and field championships that quite a few Clemson track athletes had transferred to SEC schools. The point is I love Clemson and Clemson athletics but I become very agitated with fans that continually think that Clemson athletics is some high and mighty throne and spend more time bashing instead of asking what they can do to help. I would put Clemsons baseball record the last 20 years up against anyones. Same with football....but we are not a program in any major sport that contends for national titles on a regular basis. We have good coaches who love Clemson and coach and teach the student athletes to the best of their abilities, both in sport and life. Go ahead...fire Jack, fire Brownell, and in a couple of years fire Dabo........we will get exactly what we have right now if we are lucky. I hear people on the board say we will never get O'Sullivan unless his wife wants to move, we will never get Corbin, we will never get whoever else? Why? If this is such a monster program then why would these coaches not jump at the chance to be a part of it? Why can't we get a Maineri from Notre Dame like LSU did? Why could our football not get a Charley Strong from Louisville like Texas did, OSU and Meyer, etc? Wake up, we are a great school and have great student athletes and I am proud of all of them. For those of you with the pie in the sky grass is always greener attitude, if you look around, none of the changes you have clamored for over the last 20 years have done a #### thing to change anything.
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Legend [19352]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 22266
Joined: 4/25/04
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Re: Baseball and Support
May 17, 2015, 11:12 PM
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So are you the OP?
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Scout Team [177]
TigerPulse: 91%
Posts: 129
Joined: 6/3/09
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Re: Baseball and Support
May 18, 2015, 12:22 AM
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If tommy bowden's coordinators were making as much as chad Morris or venables, that just means idiots like rob spence or billy Napier would be making 1mil+ and literally nothing else would be any different. The "money fixes everything" mindset is part of the downfall of our fan support. The people in charge are so intent on catering to the old rich IPTAY donors that don't even contribute to the games, like taking out seating for Littlejohn to have a box. How is that going to help our fan support? The way you help fan support is by getting more students to come, but they don't care about that because the students aren't making them money. Nobody can say our basketball fan support wasn't there when OP was here, and we had a good system for student tickets where the most dedicated fans get the best seats...then when BB came they decided to change that just for the hell of it and a lot of the most dedicated fans stopped coming and as a result BB never got the fan support he deserves. The dwindling fan support in baseball is no coincidence either. It is the year in and year out having so much promise and talent and not being able to capitalize (or as much as we should)
SCars baseball success had nothing to do with the new stadium and everything to do with the hiring of Ray Tanner. That wasn't a matter of money that was just a good hire. Now tanner has gone on to be the AD and their baseball is falling off again.
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Commissioner [970]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2416
Joined: 4/2/10
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Re: Baseball and Support
May 18, 2015, 4:28 AM
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And what do you think ray tanner, the AD, will do about the way their team is playing this year? Does he give his coach and seestaff a raise and extended contacts?
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110%er [5430]
TigerPulse: 88%
Posts: 11906
Joined: 9/23/01
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Re: Baseball and Support
May 18, 2015, 11:13 AM
[ in reply to Re: Baseball and Support ] |
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Don't call Billy Napier an idiot. You moron
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Scout Team [177]
TigerPulse: 91%
Posts: 129
Joined: 6/3/09
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Re: Baseball and Support
May 18, 2015, 1:27 AM
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I just wanted to add that I'll put our fanbases dedication up against any fanbase in the country, especially considering the hardships we endure. Sure our support is decreasing as our team is struggling, but that how it works anywhere
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Commissioner [970]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2416
Joined: 4/2/10
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Quite a long rant.
May 18, 2015, 9:30 AM
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Where do you get your information about the construction project. It appears to me it is going on right now. I've dealt witha lot of contacts, and everyone paid a certain amount of money for a certain amount of work. I can't believe that Clemson and the contractor agreed to shut down the project if some of the contributors disapproved of how the administration handled the program. I believe all of the money is available to complete the facilities. Please remember that the state has to approve our contacts. If you can show me where it is written in the contract that a few boosters can shut down the project, I'll Belhaven the rest of this drivel you have written. If you can't prove it, admit it, or pretty soon some on here will start calling you a coot.
GO TIGERS!
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CU Medallion [60205]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 42549
Joined: 11/30/98
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he's blowing smoke on that one
May 18, 2015, 11:13 AM
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building will be complete (bathrooms included) before the end of summer. You are right, a university project has to be fully funded with dedicated money before ground can be broken. There's no such thing as "stopping a project" because of donor withdrawal.
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110%er [9023]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7374
Joined: 4/9/11
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FIRE JACK!!!!!! and you for such a long post!!!!***
May 18, 2015, 11:14 AM
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