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CU Guru [1088]
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Most Polarizing Topic Ever
Feb 4, 2020, 11:13 PM
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On T-Net?
A. Tommy Bowden
B. Jack Leggett
C. Brad Brownell
D. The Woohoo
E. Real Fans
I’m going with A.
All the debate on CBB still pales in comparison.
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110%er [7723]
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F. DSP's Probation Status***
Feb 4, 2020, 11:23 PM
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Hall of Famer [24670]
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He'd make my debate team...***
Feb 4, 2020, 11:39 PM
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All-In [38422]
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Oculus Spirit [81940]
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Re: F. DSP's Probation Status***
Feb 5, 2020, 10:00 AM
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CU Medallion [56665]
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Re: Most Polarizing Topic Ever
Feb 5, 2020, 12:52 AM
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G. Snowflakes
H. Student attendance at games.
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Orange Blooded [2964]
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Re: Most Polarizing Topic Ever
Feb 5, 2020, 12:54 AM
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Haters gonna hate. Go Tigers.
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110%er [7169]
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I wasn't on tnet for the Bowden days.
Feb 5, 2020, 1:30 AM
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Am I correct in guessing there were those who blindly supported the same motto of today's Brownell and yesteryear's Leggett(in his last 5 years) that Clemson just can't do any better in FB back then?
Well cuz Dabo proved Clemson can be the program other programs strive to be. And our other two major sports deserve to have coaches who feel the same way. And will put the effort in to achieve that status. Not relying on transfers to bail them out.
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Orange Blooded [2248]
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Re: I wasn't on tnet for the Bowden days.
Feb 5, 2020, 6:24 AM
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I wasn't around Tnet for the Bowden or Leggett discussions, but I was around Clemson. Dabo would be an example of why you would want a change, but Leggett/Lee would be a reason to question one. History would tell me that Leggett would have been more successful than Lee. I never bought the Leggett is over the hill arguments. It might not be as applicable with Lee or Brownell since neither have had near the success of Leggett.
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All-TigerNet [10121]
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Good points - Bareftn .. And - btw ... here’s your 1000th ..
Feb 5, 2020, 9:55 AM
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... TU ! Congrats ! - ">">">
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Legend [17857]
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You forgot Nealon Greene
Feb 5, 2020, 7:15 AM
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And the Clemson University Band.
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Hall of Famer [23994]
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Posting P&R on the main board***
Feb 5, 2020, 7:15 AM
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Yes, the difference between Bowden and Brownell is that
Feb 5, 2020, 8:13 AM
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Bowden had us 1 dropped pass away from winning an ACC Championship. Well he also had us ranked in the top 5 a couple of times. Oh and he owned the coots. So anytime someone says CBB is just Clemson basketball's version of Bowden, that is absolutely incorrect. Bowden was better.
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110%er [5072]
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Re: Yes, the difference between Bowden and Brownell is that
Feb 5, 2020, 8:44 AM
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Yep, and Bowden left the football program in better shape than it was before he got here. That isn't currently the case for the basketball program.
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MVP [533]
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100% no question? ***
Feb 5, 2020, 8:51 AM
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All-TigerNet [11188]
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CU Guru [1149]
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So if Bowden knew exactly what he had in Dabo,
Feb 5, 2020, 8:57 AM
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why didn't he implement ANY of Dabo's ideas for galvanizing the team, implementing the culture, running the offense, ALL IN, or anything else Dabo has done since 2008? There was ZERO evidence that Bowden was listening to anything Dabo said from a culture and leadership standpoint.
Either Bowden didn't truly know what he had in Dabo, or Dabo was a threat to him. And neither one of those is good. The fact is, Bowden gets credit for being a blind squirrel who found a nut. And he gets credit for building the WEZ. 'Leaving it better than he found it' is overblown. We were 3-8 in 1998. Most coaches could've done the same thing.
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All-TigerNet [11188]
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Re: So if Bowden knew exactly what he had in Dabo,
Feb 5, 2020, 9:02 AM
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So you would rather that he not hire him? I think we may have a new candidate for most controversial topic.
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CU Guru [1149]
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Just how did you arrive at the notion that I'm suggesting
Feb 5, 2020, 9:27 AM
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he shouldn't have hired Dabo? That's laughable.
You Bowden supporters are way off base. The guy was better than Hatfield and West. Congratulations.
He was also a DIVISIVE figure, or maybe you all aren't aware of just how bad things were. It wasn't just the fan base, I can promise you that.
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110%er [5072]
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Re: Just how did you arrive at the notion that I'm suggesting
Feb 5, 2020, 9:48 AM
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What is your definition of a Bowden supporter? I don't think anyone here is saying that Bowden deserves to be in the coaching hall of fame or anything. We've just said that he was better for Clemson as a football coach than Brownell has been for Clemson as a basketball coach. We're also saying that Bowden left the football program in better shape than it was in before he got to Clemson, which is a point you just acknowledged by saying he was better than Hatfield and West. I'm not sure what you're debating beyond that.
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All-TigerNet [11188]
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Re: Just how did you arrive at the notion that I'm suggesting
Feb 5, 2020, 1:08 PM
[ in reply to Just how did you arrive at the notion that I'm suggesting ] |
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I'm no Bowden supporter haha. He was up and down, and it affected the team. Honestly, i believe that Dabo learned from this and made notes in his book. It's a central theme in his program. Clemson competing against Clemson every week, and the next game is the biggest game of the season. We no longer have the let down game.
I merely listed a positive of his time here.
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110%er [5072]
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Re: So if Bowden knew exactly what he had in Dabo,
Feb 5, 2020, 9:10 AM
[ in reply to So if Bowden knew exactly what he had in Dabo, ] |
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Who said Dabo ever went to Bowden and laid all of that out to him? I'm sure a lot of assistant coaches, just like a lot of employees at a company have a lot of ideas of how they'd do things if they were in charge. That doesn't mean they actually go to the head coach/boss and ask them to implement all of those ideas. Dabo wasn't even coaching at the time Bowden brought him to Clemson. Obviously Bowden would've had no way of knowing at the time that Dabo would go on to do the things he's done, but he deserves credit for doing something no other head coach did at the time. Bowden was also the one that suggested to TDP that Dabo be given the shot of being the interim coach.
Leaving the program better than he found it is about more than being better than the 3-8 team he took over. Being a voice to lead the facility upgrades as you pointed out was huge for our program. We also became a program that at least had a winning record on a consistent basis. We had a losing record in 2 out of the 5 years West was here, and only finished in the top 25 once. Bowden never had a losing record, and finished in the top 25 four times.
Bowden wasn't great, it was time to move on from him when we did, and he's not even close to being on the same level as Dabo. However, there's zero doubt that he improved our program. It's just that he got us to a certain point and could never get us past that point.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: So if Bowden knew exactly what he had in Dabo,
Feb 5, 2020, 9:26 AM
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I am an assistant baseball coach.
I have never told my boss (the head coach) all of the things I think he is doing wrong or that I would change if I were in charge.
Does anybody really think Dabo is that dumb?
Dabo was the head coach of the WRs and was a major recruiter and he ran those things the way he now runs the program.
Bowden didn't have the foresight on what could be which is likely why he didn't implement anything Dabo has done since.
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CU Guru [1149]
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Thank you. My point precisely. People want to think
Feb 5, 2020, 9:36 AM
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TB was brilliant for hiring Dabo. He knew Dabo could recruit and was a positive presence. Otherwise, there is no evidence he truly knew what he had in Dabo. If he did, why didn't he ask his opinion on implementing some ideas? Pride? Arrogance? Or just denial?
If Bowden was a good coach, he'd have been coaching somewhere since he left Clemson. I don't dislike the guy a person, but I'm not giving him credit for falling into a gold mine.
If you're only point of comparison is Tommy West, then yes Bowden was a huge improvement in some ways. I first started following Clemson football in 1975 so I have a much larger sample size than a lot of people on this board.
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CU Guru [1149]
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*your****
Feb 5, 2020, 9:38 AM
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110%er [5072]
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Re: Thank you. My point precisely. People want to think
Feb 5, 2020, 9:57 AM
[ in reply to Thank you. My point precisely. People want to think ] |
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How would anyone have known at the time that Dabo would end up becoming a 2 time NC winner, 6 time ACC champion, and one of the best coaches in the country by the age of 50? He likely saw that he had potential, and that he was at least a great recruiter, but to knock him for not realizing the full potential of Dabo is just silly IMO.
As for the rest of your point. As I said above, I don't think anyone is saying Bowden was a great head coach or anything. I know that I was only saying he left the program in better shape than he found it in. We all know Bowden had some flaws and limits as a head coach which is why he's no longer the head coach here. You can have flaws and still be a good coach though. A good head coach though wasn't enough to get us to the elite status we're currently sitting in.
As for why Bowden hasn't coached since leaving Clemson, maybe he just hasn't wanted to? The way guys get rehired all the time, there's no way he wouldn't have at least been able to coach a non P5 team or somewhere like Vandy, NC State, or somewhere similar if he were putting himself out there.
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All-TigerNet [10121]
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All-In [37539]
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Re: Most Polarizing Topic Ever
Feb 5, 2020, 8:41 AM
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Balloons hands down!!!
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110%er [5249]
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Chrome vs no Chrome helmets
Feb 5, 2020, 8:53 AM
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Lavender vs. Regalia
Choosing defense
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Team Captain [462]
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balloons***
Feb 5, 2020, 9:19 AM
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All-In [27178]
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Re: Most Polarizing Topic Ever
Feb 5, 2020, 9:50 AM
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You forgot chrome helmets.
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All-In [32580]
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Tim Match Day. Nothing else even close.***
Feb 5, 2020, 1:09 PM
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Replies: 31
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