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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Christians and alcohol
Oct 2, 2018, 1:12 PM
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Being raised in a southern baptist church and still being a member of one of course I’ve been around the teaching that even moderate use of alcohol is a sin. I’m curious as to how someone squares that teaching with the numerous verses in the Old Testament that contradict it and also the fact that Jesus himself drank wine.....
Psalm 104: 14-15
He makes grass grow for the cattle,
and plants for people to cultivate—
bringing forth food from the earth:
wine that gladdens human hearts,
oil to make their faces shine,
and bread that sustains their hearts.
Luke 7:34
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’
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110%er [7207]
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Did Jesus boof his wine?***
Oct 2, 2018, 1:15 PM
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All-In [26968]
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The typical conservative/fundamentalist view...
Oct 2, 2018, 1:21 PM
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Is that wine spoken of in positive ways in Scripture is unfermented (grape juice), and the wine spoken of in negative ways is fermented.
This is to avoid any contradiction with verses like Proverbs 20:1, "Wine is a mocker, and strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
This is an increasingly unpopular viewpoint, from what I can tell. Now, it's more mainstream Baptist to stop short of saying it's sinful to drink any alcohol, but to instead say it is just unwise. And the more progressive Baptists increasingly hold that alcohol "in moderation" is OK.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: The typical conservative/fundamentalist view...
Oct 2, 2018, 1:37 PM
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You don’t have to be a Hebrew or Greek scholar to see the ridiculousness of the “it was unfermented” argument and sadly that one seems to be the go to. Wine can’t really gladden the heart if it’s just grape juice. The Pharisees wouldn’t have called Jesus a drunkard if the wine he was drinking wasn’t fermented, and the water he turned to wine was said to be better than the wine that was all gone. At Jewish weddings they would drink the good stuff first and save the cheap wine for later after everybody was tipsy.
As for the verse from Proverbs, there’s no doubt that the Bible teaches that drunkness is a sin. It also teaches that gluttony is a sin but you’ll find plenty of people straight out of church on Sunday afternoon stuffing their bellies at a local buffet. It’s funny that Perry Noble took so much heat for his drinking, yet there are plenty of fat preachers wearing their sin around their waists and nobody seems to mind them in the pulpit.
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All-In [26968]
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Re: The typical conservative/fundamentalist view...
Oct 2, 2018, 1:45 PM
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Wine can’t really gladden the heart if it’s just grape juice.
Why not?
The Pharisees wouldn’t have called Jesus a drunkard if the wine he was drinking wasn’t fermented,
Are you saying the Pharisees would never have spread lies about Jesus?
and the water he turned to wine was said to be better than the wine that was all gone.
Also not an explicit reference to intoxication here.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: The typical conservative/fundamentalist view...
Oct 2, 2018, 3:14 PM
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Are you saying the Pharisees would never spread lies about Jesus?
In verse 33 Jesus says John the Baptist came eating neither bread nor drinking wine.....So clearly there was a reason John chose not to drink the wine he was referring to in this passage.
There seem to be a lot of similarities in the actions of the Pharisees and Christians in America today.
Matthew 23:4 (NLT)
They crush people with unbearable religious demands and never lift a finger to ease the burden.
This is prevelant in churches today especially among staff members.
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All-In [47795]
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also, unfermented grape juice is highly unstable
Oct 2, 2018, 1:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: The typical conservative/fundamentalist view... ] |
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unless it was fresh squeezed it would not have been available.
Welch's method of pasteurization wasnt invented until the 20th century.
Now, I suppose it could be watered down wine.....but it had alcohol in it without any doubt, IMO.
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Oculus Spirit [93661]
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Opinions mean much to me...
Oct 2, 2018, 8:22 PM
[ in reply to The typical conservative/fundamentalist view... ] |
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but not as much as scripture.
Ephesians chpt 5
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
That indicate that a drink or two isn't a problem. The problems come when the drink displaces the joy of the Lord. I can't say when that happens or how much it I'd have to drink for it to happen. I've never had a drink while in fellowship with God. It wasn't that I did some great sacrifice to deny myself a sip or two but that my heart was in the joy of the Lord and I didn't want a drink.
Verse 21 suggest that if somebody in your life is offended by your drinking that in order to follow our submissive directive we should forego drink. There's a heck of a lot other things I should give up to keep from offending people so I'm not holy in the least.
I would never risk doing something some consider a sin to another Christian. That goes especially true when dealing with spiritually young. They don't know much about the details of what's right or wrong so they tend to absorb the opinions of others.
I'm not offended by those who drink though I feel they might do better without. I would never venture to point out another man's sin. When I am living a sinless life and have a sinless heart I'll let everyone here know.
I think we'd all do better to keep our condemnation of one another to ourselves.
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Oculus Spirit [81054]
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so much baggage to live with
Oct 2, 2018, 1:24 PM
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I'll never understand it.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: so much baggage to live with
Oct 2, 2018, 1:38 PM
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There are times that I don’t blame you.....
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All-In [28802]
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Legend [18021]
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it's why religion was invented in the first place
Oct 2, 2018, 4:38 PM
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to try and deal with the baggage of everyday life. Ironic, ain't it?
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All-In [28802]
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It was "invented" for the same reason as any other...
Oct 2, 2018, 5:07 PM
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method of getting at the truth about human life- because people perceive a significance to their existence that speaks to a different level of being beyond their animal, everyday existence. But we usually don't talk about those things being "invented" so much as they are received like sense data.
The supposed "baggage" people are complaining about is just the consequence of commitment to a certain truth. Being "cool" and non-committal carries its own baggage, though, frequently including bad faith.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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Legend [18021]
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The perception is based on our love of patterns
Oct 2, 2018, 5:31 PM
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and developed through years of evolutionary history and survival. With that development of pattern recognition and manipulation came the unintended consequence of existential baggage to which religion was created to try and explain and carry. So, yes, you're right religion was invented to try and get at a "truth" about human life, but that "truth" doesn't exist objectively like natural objects in the world (the use of "perception" is key here as it is inherently subjective).
It's also why we tend to love conspiracy theories.
There are patterns everywhere (some real and others we just want to be there) and we assume that means there is some greater "truth" they lead to or that created them. The problem often is we perceive the "truth" first and then find the pattern that leads us to our subjective "truth."
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Lot o points [155849]
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since it sounds like you have it all figured out,
Oct 2, 2018, 9:36 PM
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Could you let me in on the subjective truth that led to all matter in existence coming to be? I’m one of those primates still searching for truth.
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Legend [18021]
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Subjective truth or Objective truth?
Oct 3, 2018, 4:18 PM
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I think there is probably an objective truth that explains it (seeing as it should fit within the natural world) and I think the Big Bang is as close as we have to that objective truth, but within that there is subjectivity and faith (incongruous as that might seem).
As far as subjective truth, what creation story you like the best is up to you to find I guess.
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Lot o points [155849]
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You said there was no objective truth about the origin
Oct 3, 2018, 4:21 PM
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so I just assumed it must be subjective.
To the meat of the matter though, I don't take issue with the big bang, but it begs the question...where did that come from? Just keep doing that enough times until the phrase "why the he!! are we actually here anyway?"
When you get to that point, you'll realize that any given religion's explanation is no more or less whacky than anything else we can drum up to explain it.
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Lot o points [155849]
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sorry, lemme fix the sentence fragment
Oct 3, 2018, 4:22 PM
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Just keep doing that enough times until the phrase "why the he!! are we actually here anyway?" is rattling around in your head as you're staring at the ceiling.
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Legend [18021]
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It was in ref to "human life" not the origin of everything
Oct 3, 2018, 4:46 PM
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This is what I said, "So, yes, you're right religion was invented to try and get at a "truth" about human life, but that "truth" doesn't exist objectively like natural objects in the world.
more specifically, I meant it as the "truths" we perceive as part of being human (subjectivity). These are often different truths than natural truths (which the beginning of the universe is part of). Natural truths exist whether we perceive them or not.
What came before the Big Bang (if objectively true)? I don't know, but I bet it's an objective truth.
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Lot o points [155849]
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I dunno man, I dunno, but it boggles the mind.
Oct 4, 2018, 8:35 AM
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I stop thinking about it after a while because it makes my head hurt. Even if you believe in a creator God, then you go "well who created them" and it's like...
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Oculus Spirit [93661]
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I once herd one who claimed to be a preacher say...
Oct 3, 2018, 5:05 AM
[ in reply to so much baggage to live with ] |
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that we have no right to hold guilt against ourselves because The Lord finds us guilty through the gospel. I never heard a sermon from that person so I couldn't verify if the had the gift to preach or not.
I can tell all you young men this. The theory is popycock. For years I held that belief. Decades I went without being burdened by the guilt from the things I did and had done in the past. Life was fast and filled with obligation and responsibilities.
Somewhere during the last decade life slowed, obligation were within my control and responsibilities diminished due to children become adults. Now I lay awake at night and evaluate my past, consider my sowing to the flesh and how in fact the harvest never end. Each and every night as I lay my head on the pillow I consider the people who I have hurt, the tiniest of my infractions against my fellowman and the horrible way I broke the heart of the one who loves me the most, The Lord Jesus Christ.
He's always there to remind me that He died so I would live, he was beaten to heal my self inflicted spiritual wounds and he touches the scars which remain in my heart with the gentle hand of Almight God which settles my soul and I can rest.
Someday, He will return for me and the guilt will end at the foot of His throne when I cast the crown of life he has give me at His feet.
So year, there's a lot of baggage in this life.
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CU Medallion [54758]
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religion and contradictions???
Oct 2, 2018, 1:50 PM
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All-In [28802]
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That's just lazy, I think***
Oct 2, 2018, 3:23 PM
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CU Medallion [54758]
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lazy would just be copying & pasting the image URL
Oct 2, 2018, 5:20 PM
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I full-out HTML'd dat ish, width modifier and all
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All-In [42145]
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Oculus Spirit [78865]
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Catholics
Oct 2, 2018, 4:52 PM
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are required to drink
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Legend [16240]
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How do you keep a Baptist from drinking all of your beer
Oct 2, 2018, 9:31 PM
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on a fishing trip?
Invite two of them.
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All-In [46823]
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My mother is a Pentecostal Holy Roller
Oct 3, 2018, 9:17 AM
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and my dad is the same but more tempered.
She is a tee-totaler. Not a drop of alcohol. Thinks everybody that drinks just a little bit is borderline alcoholic. I don't agree with her but understand why she thinks that way. She was raised in a house by an abusive alcoholic father for most of her life.
My father was raise with a dad exactly like that too.
So I got ALL of the reasons why alcohol was of the devil and their explanation of why wine is in the bible.
The main one was that it was grape juice.
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