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Topic: TL KB passing distribution chart
Replies: 69   Last Post: Sep 18, 2018 1:33 PM by: RU4GOD2®
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Replies: 69  

TL KB passing distribution chart

[27]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 2:26 PM
 

This is first half only when they both played.

You can make up your own minds but clearly TL opens the field up much more. Both QB's had a drop of a catchable ball. I don't count that against the QB.

KB threw an INT into coverage on a bubble screen that was a good defensive play, not sure #8 did enough to go get the pass or break it up. Its a quick throw so not sure KB had enough time to see the defender. He also under-threw Rogers who had 5 yards on the d back on the long ball (#3). Rogers cam back to break up a possible INT.

TL went 8 of 9 with a drop or he goes 9 of 9 in the first half.

The stats look similar KB 8-10 with an INT, TL 8-9... the stats do not tell the story, look at the distribution and where the ball is being thrown.

For the game TL had a QBR of 97.8 (#3 in the NCAA tied with Tua for week 3)... KB was not listed.

Experience vs talent.

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Thanks for compiling these stats.

[5]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 2:30 PM
 

Your charts are a very nice visual of what is happening, and that is that Trevor is able to distribute the ball all over the field to a wide variety of receivers, while Bryant is limited in that regard.

Bryant has experience, running ability, and the respect of his teammates. But it is time for Lawrence to get a majority of the snaps.

2020 white level member

Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Re: Thanks for compiling these stats.

[7]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 2:35 PM
 

one Thing that has gone unnoticed about the interception that Lawrence threw is ..... did you see the solo tackle that he made on the ball carrier? As soon as the batted ball was caught he was the first one there to bring the guy down. Is there a replay available?


Re: Thanks for compiling these stats.

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 2:37 PM
 

game was replayed last night, I recorded it. I think ESPN will replay a few times more this week.

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Around the 14:50 mark in the video

[3]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 2:41 PM
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JURCkWr1H-E

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Re: Around the 14:50 mark in the video

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 4:50 PM
 

How about the pass before?


Re: Around the 14:50 mark in the video


Posted: Sep 18, 2018 9:59 AM
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWAn-EprvC4

1:33:15

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Re: Thanks for compiling these stats.

[3]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 2:56 PM
 

Yep, didn’t go unnoticed to me. Actually was really good technique and he didn’t hesitate. That was a good int in the fact it didn’t hurt us. Great teachable mistake. He probably gets away with that one in HS but he’ll learn.

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TL's pick was tipped...

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 3:02 PM
 

while KB's was just a bad decision. In fact, I'm not sure he ever looked opting instead to just throw to a spot.

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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.


Not a good throw/decision

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 6:24 PM
 

But that one is also on Elliott because the CB knew exactly what was coming and that gets housed against a team with better athleticism.


KB has to actually look***

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 6:48 PM
 



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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.


Re: Thanks for compiling these stats.

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 9:57 PM
 

yes, as soon as it was tipped he took off, and excellent technique


Re: Thanks for compiling these stats.

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 5:28 PM
 

I noticed that too. ??

2020 purple level member

I noticed that Forest. Great tackle too.

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 10:45 PM
 

He was obviously upset about throwing the int. We are blessed to have three awesome qb's on this team!

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That is becoming more likely every week.

[3]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 3:33 PM
 

Only a matter of time.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Do you agree that it needs to happen?***

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 9:06 PM
 



2020 white level member

Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


I don't know.

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 9:56 PM
 

I don't know that it "needs" to happen this week, or next week, but it's obvious to me what is happening. I don't see everything that Dabo, Streeter, Elliot and Scott see, but what I do see is that the offense opens up at times under TL in ways that just aren't possible under KB. I know the coaches see it too.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


This is a great visual for those learning impaired tneters..

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 2:40 PM
 

trying to argue for no reason other than just wanting to be right!!
Go Tigers...


Re: This is a great visual for those learning impaired tneters..

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 6:31 PM
 

Nobody is arguing that KB throws the ball better. Who knows what would have happened against A&M if only TL played buy idk if we would have won. I think we keep the rotation and it is justified on the field why we do so.


Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[3]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 2:57 PM
 

Those charts confirm exactly what I thought I saw - that TL was seeing the TE in the seam routes, but there may be more to it than that. How much of KBs sideline throws and lack of downfield action was play-calling. How many were designed screens? How many of each QB's opportunities were seam routes, and slants? If it was due to play-calling, then the question is if the OCs trust KB throwing over/down the middle. It would be interesting to look at what routes all of the receivers were running on each of those plays and which ones were open..... and when they were open.


Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 3:16 PM
 

My opinion is worth just that- my opinion, but I don't think the Coaches trust KB throwing the ball to the middle of the field.

2020 white level member

You can just about count on one hand the balls KB has

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 9:19 PM
 

completed in the middle of the field. He could have had one to Tee when we were on the 20 or so. The tight end in the slot curled and held the LB in, Tee ran a post over the top and had the inside position on the CB. Kelly looked at him but just held the ball. I thought at the time that TL would have had a TD to Tee on that one. I think we missed the field goal on the next play....

2020 white level member

Can you compile these stats for the whole season to date?

[4]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 3:01 PM
 

Great work on the charts, but one half of work isn't a big enough sample size to draw any real conclusions.

2020 white level member

I'd like to see one for the entire season

[3]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 3:06 PM
 

19 attempts isn't much of a sample size. I think it will show the same trend, but it would be nice to have all 86 attempts to reduce variance.


Re: I'd like to see one for the entire season

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 3:21 PM
 

Show TL's second half.... add that to the sample size. TL was rolling that first half (cam back to earth somewhat in the 3rd) and the OL was showing how he could hurt a D if he has time.


Re: I'd like to see one for the entire season

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 3:40 PM
 

I did this on my time, I'm not a pro or anything just like to re-watch the game and look for things I did not see real time... mostly blocking which is hard to keep track of real time, and d-back play. I did chart TL in the TAMU game but not KB. Maybe I will do that and post later.

On TL's chances he only there on to the middle of the field (incomplete, bad pass) and was 2 of 3 beyond 10 yards. On the miss he overthrew #5 on the boundary (ball went out of bounds).

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We need to remain faithful to the process.

[6]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 3:28 PM
 

I believe that 90+% of Clemson fans are licking our chops to see TL turned loose in the starting job and get the most minutes but when that happens it will be much later in the season that I suspected. I estimated an early change at starter according to our experience with Cole but there is a significant if not critical difference.

Chad Morris was handling the qbs when Cole and DW were fighting for the starting job and I think the evidence shows that Chad was refusing to behave and call plays as do Jeff and Tony.

When DW went down and Chad left for SMU...let me remind you of what transpired. Chad called plays which included many running plays for DW and Cole. While Cole wasn't an option type QB he was far from being a dual threat yet Chad continued to call plays for Cole without regard to Cole's abilities being limited in those areas.

DW got hurt four times with each of those injuries being on running plays. Do you wonder why I was delighted when Chad finally found another victim to his ego? When Jeff and Tony took over the OC position they called a post season game that made Cole look like a pro.

Right now they are calling plays which accentuate the talent and skill level of both our contenders for the QB starting job. That make them look much more equal in talent and skill than I believe is accurate.

This is fair and good for our program. KB is constantly tasked with doing bits and pieces of things he isn't comfortable doing. So is TL. They are both moving in the right direction which is creating the competition needed to get the most out of both find young men with the ultimate goal of taking each to the ends of their abilities.

Frankly, I can't imagine anyone complaining.

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Re: We need to remain faithful to the process.

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 3:46 PM
 

we will not win a championship; and I hope that is the goal, if we cannot throw the ball beyond 10 yards. I think 'Bama proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt last year and every school has taken note... IMHO KB cannot throw a long ball with any touch, he floats it out there for the 50-50... we have the talent to go get those balls but that should not be confused with we have a QB who can make those plays.

Love KB2 for his leadership and character, he simply is unreliable beyond 10 yards. Can we win with a limited O?

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Re: We need to remain faithful to the process.

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 9:36 PM
 

KB has been really good this year at throws 10 yards or more.


Re: KB on throws of 10+

[1]
Posted: Sep 18, 2018 8:25 AM
 

KB has definitely thrown the slant routes better this year, and against GSU he threw a 20-yard deep out to Galloway that was beautiful.
But the only "deep" ball he throws well is the Fly or Go route, the "throw it out there and let your guy go get it" pass. It seems like his throwing range is 40-50 yards tops, and combined with the arching trajectory of his throw, this requires him to launch early in the route. He doesn't throw it into double coverage, so he obviously has learned to read when the safety will not be there to help.

But this only happens a few times per game, so Kelly's success rate is high. He cherry picks his opportunities. To you and me, that's smart and efficient. But aggressive coaches want to throw 10+ passes of 20+ yards every game to open up the offense, and they will tell you that even an incomplete deep ball has good effect. Kelly will never get 10+ perfect situations in a game to throw the Go, so he needs to be developing his skills and reads on other routes, too.


Re: KB on throws of 10+

[1]
Posted: Sep 18, 2018 8:47 AM
 

I agree and TL has the arm to throw anywhere on the field and he opens up the multiple deep routes for sure. I'm just tired of people acting like KB sucks and can only run or throw a 5 yard hitch.


Two myths I would like to address, the 1st is that Chad

[4]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 4:39 PM
 

Morris got Watson hurt calling too many running plays...The very next year, coming off an ACL injury, Scelliot ran him like a rented mule and NOBODY said boo about it...Second, the RAB was a fluke...Anybody that thinks Cole would have played like that the entire season given the right play calling is an idiot...He threw 2 pick 6's on SCREEN PASSES at GT, those were not a result of Chad putting him in a position to fail in his offense.


Re: Two myths I would like to address, the 1st is that Chad

[4]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 5:32 PM
 

I completely agree. Those are some pretty silly myths.


Who said that?

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 5:59 PM
 

The context was that Chad favored the option read over every thing else he called. I said nor insinuated nothing about Chad's culpability in Watson's apparent careless attitude toward his body.

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nice backpedal, do you have any eligibility left?***

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 6:13 PM
 




I see no "X"

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 4:17 PM
 

how am I supposed to find the treasure without an "X"

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KB is supposed to control the game with his feet...

[4]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 4:30 PM
 

when we play teams that he can do that efficiently then we will win. Its the games where the run and the short-intermediate is squeezed is where we are somewhat out of luck barring converting a big play down field.

TL is in there to get teh vertical game respectable. He has decent mobility but the way he will control the game/clock is by play action pass. Which puts alot of pressure on making accurate reads and throws. For him its emphasis on the first part of that statement. If/when he's comfortable enough to read those new defenses then he will be good enough in the mobility department and the running backs will get more breathing room because teams will have to cover the pass more.

but..

if he's still learning then you run the risk of turnovers b/c he may be learning on the fly. Dabo is doing the right thing by getting him experience in doses. Our schedule sets up pretty good for a rookie qb. Two easy games and one really tough game/environment. Playing in scheduled spots was teh right way to do this. Not doing the flip flop every week of naming a new starter like spurrier would do.

But you do sacrifice a little continuity with this strategy. My guess is it ends up by game 6 with one qb proving that he deserves the reps.


Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 5:04 PM
 

You did not indicate TL's interception on the chart.


Re: TL KB passing distribution chart


Posted: Sep 17, 2018 5:07 PM
 

Never mind my previous comment, since the charts are only for the first half. Wonder what the charts would look like for qb runs?


Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 5:37 PM
 

What is the point of doing that? Honestly, everyone knows and HAS known KB is more geared for the run. But since when was the QB run supposed to be a QB's dominant trait? To really assess that...you'd have to compare running game vs running game...i.e. Entire run game with KB doing runs and the RB's too, vs run game of TL and the RB's. That'd give you a better idea of what you should really be looking at. Which QB does the run game as a whole look better? With a pro-style QB, the RB's take more of the load...but are they more efficient under Trevor, or Kelly? If they were to be more efficient under Trevor, does it make up enough to counter Kelly's production in the run game?


Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 6:15 PM
 

Your point is well taken. Then, I guess it would be interesting to see what the entire running game looks like for both qbs.


Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 7:34 PM
 

Here's the Furman game:



Re: TL KB passing distribution chart


Posted: Sep 17, 2018 7:43 PM
 

^ BTW, this does not count anything under Chase Brice's drives, nor does it count any sacks (if counting sacks, TL had 1 for -7, KB had 1 for -9). It does include a negative for Kelly due to his fumble he recovered.


Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 8:33 PM
 

Here is Texas A&M. What I find interesting is the difference in run calls in this game. What I did to make this as fair as possible is took the first 6 drives of both (basically, Trevor played 6 of the first 9 drives, then Kelly took over...so KB ended with more playing time). You'll note Trevor's side was only called to run 6 times, vs Kelly's 14. So IMO, play calling can become a point of discussion here as to why they kept only mainly passing with Trevor....if you looked at 3 drives from KB's 4th quarter instead of the 3rd, you can see it even worse on the play calling for the RB's, the last 6 rushes done/called were all KB, interestingly.





I don’t think we should care about QB rushing stats.

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 7:43 PM
 

Because we shouldn’t be running the QB unless it is a QB sneak situation to get a yard or less.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s nice to have a mobile QB who can scramble if he gets flushed out of the pocket or a play breaks down, but why would we want to run with our QB instead of passing to our receivers or handing it off to one of our running backs?

I truly hope our coaches agree.

2020 white level member

Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Re: I don’t think we should care about QB rushing stats.

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 10:26 PM
 

Because it is effective and gives us an extra blocker. We have used the QB run with Tajh and DW and it workes great. Now I don't want to see KB with the most carries but he should have around 5-8 runs called for him in a game imo.


He had 5 in the first quarter on Saturday, Travis had 4 and

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 10:30 PM
 

about twice the yardage


Re: He had 5 in the first quarter on Saturday, Travis had 4 and

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 10:35 PM
 

Yes I know and I don't think we should run him more than the RBs but to say he only needs to run when a pass play is broken down is idiotic imo. Designed QB runs have been a huge part of our success the last 8 years or so why would we not us it?


Because it's not nearly as effective as an Etienne run

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 10:49 PM
 

or a downfield pass.

2020 white level member

Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


It's like bragging about how many rebounds our PG has***

[3]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 10:31 PM
 




Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 8:33 PM
 

would be inverted, pretty sure TL longest run is 5 yards...

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Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 8:46 PM
 

He had a 10 yd run in the GSU game @10:45 in the 2nd quarter. That's the game that's hardest to look at. The game's biggest RB run came later in the game under Trevor playing...but by then, KB was out of the game. To only look at while they are both playing, KB's were looking better, but that'd be removing the best run done under TL, which was a 40 yarder by Etienne. The second biggest run was done while Chase was in (Choice for 32 yards).


Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[3]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 5:16 PM
 
TL_game.jpg(35.6 K)

TL for entire game.

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Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 5:35 PM
 

Either he has blinders and tunnel vision or his tendency is to move the ball downfield. If it's the latter, he's what the O needs to get the run game going.


Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[3]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 5:53 PM
 
TL_game.jpg(36.4 K)

not sure why I only have 18 passes vs 19... I did this quick so might have missed one or it was a shuffle pass which I have not counted...

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Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 5:56 PM
 

I wonder if it’s a difference in QB’s vision or the play calling?


Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 11:45 PM
 

No, you show 19, so you're fine. You just used #15-16 twice.

Great work!


Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 6:03 PM
 

On KB incomplete pass to #3 - he was wide open and KB under threw the long ball


Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 6:21 PM
 

That tackle TL made after his pic reminded me a lot of hj13 in the 17 natty when he made that saving tackle that would of put Bama in the winners box


Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[2]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 8:35 PM
 

yep, #3 had his man beat by 5 yards and had to come back and break up a severely under thrown pass, otherwise its an INT.

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Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 8:56 PM
 

Well, you're right about that underthrow to Rogers.
However, i see that play as a net positive learning experience for KB (yes, IMO, as the OCs expand the offense for TL, Kelly is also progressing out of his comfort zone. It has always been my belief that Kelly is learning as much from TL as the other way around.)

Tee Higgins was 'flying' down the left side, which is where KB was supposed to go, but Tee was only marginally open. Kelly actually checked to Amari 'flying' down the right side with a clear cushion on his defender. Unfortunately, KB took too long to redirect (set his feet), so his limited throwing range came into play, as well as that he threw a high arching ball into a 15 mph wind so that it hung up. Kelly could barely have thrown that pass into the end zone on a calm day, but that's pretty much where Amari was when the ball came in 5 yards short.
You're right, Amari did well to break up the pass, but KB has already seen his mistake on film, I'm sure.


thanks for taking the effort to compile this!

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 7:39 PM
 

Value added!

2020 purple level member

but our crack statisticians will point out the completion %

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 7:44 PM
 

and other misc nonsense

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Re: but our crack statisticians will point out the completion %

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 9:08 PM
 

Thanks. That's a helpful chart.


Ask them who has twice as many passing TDs, then listen

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 10:46 PM
 

to the crickets


Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 9:29 PM
 

I only read the first page so this might have been said already. But it seems to me that dabo is starting KB, but playing TL enough to give him ample opportunity to steal the starting gig away. Which he will do when everything clicks. I remember reading on here that dabo said TL was way ahead of DW4 PHYSICALLY, but maybe he didn't come in as MENTALLY gifted as DW. i still believe TL will be qb1 before the season ends.


We know what each does best. Why can’t Bryant come in

[1]
Posted: Sep 17, 2018 9:41 PM
 

when we need a running threat or to control the clock and leave TL out there when we want to throw the ball over the middle or deep.

A legit two QB system instead of just giving them equal time. I understand why we have done what we have done to date, but moving forward, play them as the situation dictates.

2020 white level member

Careful sir. Facts and figures aren’t real popular around here....


Posted: Sep 18, 2018 6:02 AM
 

People can get testy especially when the facts make someone “look” bad, instead of being interpreted as what is.

But good job either way. This shows KB is who we think he is.


Re: TL KB passing distribution chart

[1]
Posted: Sep 18, 2018 1:00 PM
 
TL_game.jpg(54.8 K)

Updated the chart for TL, KB's was correct, found the missing pass (jet sweep to #3) and added who was targeted on each pass if anyone cares about receiver distribution as well a location.

Added a a 20+ line as well, TL seems to have more balls downfield so it seems worth distinguishing how far the QB's are throwing the ball.

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Awesome. Thanks for sharing!***

[1]
Posted: Sep 18, 2018 1:33 PM
 



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..:: ru4god2 ::..


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