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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Can someone explain to me how gay marriage infringes
Jun 29, 2015, 6:09 PM
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On a Christians "rights."
I don't see it. I'm a Christian but maybe in the minority when I say it doesn't affect us.
It may hurt some "feelings" but infringing on rights, I don't see it.
Maybe someone can explain to me which one of my rights have been infringed upon.
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Heisman Winner [111597]
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Re: Can someone explain to me how gay marriage infringes
Jun 29, 2015, 6:11 PM
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your right to discriminate on others has been completely stepped upon.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Can someone explain to me how gay marriage infringes
Jun 29, 2015, 6:14 PM
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Agreed
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Rock Defender [53]
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They don't understand how to seperate their religious views
Jun 29, 2015, 6:14 PM
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from the law of the land.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: They don't understand how to seperate their religious views
Jun 29, 2015, 6:16 PM
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Exactly. I've talked with quite a few in the last couple days that honestly do not get the separating religious views from the laws of the land.
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Hall of Famer [21577]
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Re: Can someone explain to me how gay marriage infringes
Jun 29, 2015, 6:24 PM
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Cause Obama is going to force churches to marry the gheys.
What's funny is most churches have many things they require to get married in their church. I know for a fact Lord Perry and NS won't marry you if you've been living with your girlfriend. They'll make you live a part for 6 months...like that's some holy cure.
Its hard to get people that believe in magic to separate it from reality.
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All-In [31896]
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I don't believe you're framing the point correctly...
Jun 29, 2015, 6:25 PM
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most of the opposition to gay marriage comes from the fact that a long-standing tradition that is one of the underpinnings of our society has been drastically redefined.
Many Christians believe that marriage has it's root in our society as a sacred bond that has a religious context. They feel that marriage forms a stable environment for the raising of children and is in accordance with God's instruction. They feel that redefining marriage is another step that will serve to devalue marriage in our society, which could/will lead to further destabilization of the family structure, which has an impact on all parts of our society.
The issues with regard to religious liberty tend to be formed to more forced participation in gay marriage ceremonies, etc...
The bottom line is that long-standing institution has been redefined. Time will tell if that is going to have a positive or negative (or no) impact on our country and society.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I1-r1YgK9I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6K9dS9wl7U
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I don't believe you're framing the point correctly...
Jun 29, 2015, 6:34 PM
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> most of the opposition to gay marriage comes from the fact that a long-standing tradition that is one of the underpinnings of our society has been drastically redefined.
Yeah and? Things change. Why are you so hung up on the fact that the law changed? That is the entire point of having an amenable law.
> Many Christians believe that marriage has it's root in our society as a sacred bond that has a religious context. They feel that marriage forms a stable environment for the raising of children and is in accordance with God's instruction. They feel that redefining marriage is another step that will serve to devalue marriage in our society, which could/will lead to further destabilization of the family structure, which has an impact on all parts of our society.
Why does a religion get a say here? The law is secular. Do you want Muslims to pitch in on their thoughts here too?
> The bottom line is that long-standing institution has been redefined. Time will tell if that is going to have a positive or negative (or no) impact on our country and society.
Spoiler alert, there will not be a negative impact on our country. What have gay people every done to harm the country?
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All-In [31896]
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Re: I don't believe you're framing the point correctly...
Jun 29, 2015, 8:23 PM
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"Yeah and? Things change. Why are you so hung up on the fact that the law changed? That is the entire point of having an amenable law."
I'm not "hung up on it", I'm just explaining why folks oppose the ruling handed down on Friday. As I explained, marriage is viewed as an underpinning of our society and redefining of a social institution is a big deal...whether you support it or oppose it, it's a big deal to many.
"Why does a religion get a say here? The law is secular. Do you want Muslims to pitch in on their thoughts here too"
I said "many Christians feel"...the rest of that paragraph is not necessarily religious in nature. Marriage certainly has a religious context in our society though, don't you think?
"Spoiler alert, there will not be a negative impact on our country. What have gay people every done to harm the country? "
I don't think you're following at all what I've written above.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I don't believe you're framing the point correctly...
Jun 29, 2015, 8:33 PM
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"Spoiler alert, there will not be a negative impact on our country. What have gay people every done to harm the country? "
> I don't think you're following at all what I've written above.
Um negative, all I'm seeing is poor arguments against gay marriage. All you have is religious people are uncomfortable therefore we shouldn't give gays equal rights.
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All-In [31896]
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No where did I come to a conclusion....
Jun 29, 2015, 8:40 PM
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I'm simply explaining why some Christians have a problem with the ruling, which was the original question.
Their concern is the devaluing of marriage what has been an underpinning of our society and most others for a very long time.
Now...you can agree with that or disagree with that, but at the very least, it's a respectable opinion. That is, unless you can't respect any opinion which is different than yours.
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Hall of Famer [21577]
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Re: No where did I come to a conclusion....
Jun 29, 2015, 9:57 PM
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I'm not sure where anyone is refuting the fact that Christians are mad about it...we know that. What he is saying is that it doesn't matter...we don't base laws off of religion PERIOD.
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All-In [31896]
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Did I say anywhere that laws should be....
Jun 29, 2015, 10:38 PM
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"based off of religion"?
The state supporting marriage between 1 man and 1 woman for the purpose of raising a family, etc...isn't necessarily only a religious matter.
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Legend [18023]
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Doesn't no fault divorce devalue marriage more?
Jun 29, 2015, 11:27 PM
[ in reply to No where did I come to a conclusion.... ] |
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unless you value leaving the institution as less corrosive as entering it in the first place.
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All-In [31896]
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Yes, I think so.***
Jun 30, 2015, 1:30 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I don't believe you're framing the point correctly...
Jun 29, 2015, 6:35 PM
[ in reply to I don't believe you're framing the point correctly... ] |
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> The issues with regard to religious liberty tend to be formed to more forced participation in gay marriage ceremonies, etc...
1. Where does it say that religous persons will have to participate in gay marriage?
2. How are religious liberties being infringed upon in any way whatsoever? This law allows gays to get married. What does that have to do with religion?
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All-In [31896]
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Re: I don't believe you're framing the point correctly...
Jun 29, 2015, 8:25 PM
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I said the complaints on infringing on religious liberties is more about businesses/individuals being forced to "participate" in gay marriage, which is against their religious beliefs. Some of the reaction is fear on what might be to come and some is in reaction to actual cases.
I didn't say that gay marriage in, and of, itself infringes on religious liberties.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I don't believe you're framing the point correctly...
Jun 29, 2015, 8:35 PM
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> I said the complaints on infringing on religious liberties is more about businesses/individuals being forced to "participate" in gay marriage, which is against their religious beliefs. Some of the reaction is fear on what might be to come and some is in reaction to actual cases.
> I didn't say that gay marriage in, and of, itself infringes on religious liberties.
Ok well we can't legislate based on people's fear of what MAY happen. Gay marriage has nothing to do with other's religious beliefs.
Are you telling me because a christian fears that something may happen to them that it should have any bearing on someone else's rights? Why do you care so much about one groups right's and so little about another's?
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All-In [31896]
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You're skipping around to different points here....
Jun 29, 2015, 8:43 PM
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the original question asked why gay marriage infringes on Christians rights. I said that that wasn't the correct way to frame the question...which means that really isn't the reason some Christians oppose gay marriage. I then went on to explain why some oppose it.
I THEN mentioned that the infringement on religious rights isn't the gay marriage itself, but some of the things surrounding gay marriage, like forcing bakes, photographers, etc...to participate in gay weddings.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Strange enough, you and I agree.***
Jun 30, 2015, 1:24 PM
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High five?
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All-TigerNet [10637]
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Flow0440.... Some people are just not going to listen to....
Jun 29, 2015, 9:40 PM
[ in reply to I don't believe you're framing the point correctly... ] |
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any opposing opinion that differs with their own. I though you responses were quite valid and reflect what many people feel about gay marriage. Quite frankly, maybe the government ought to get out of the marriage business and leave it to churches. The Gov't could issue some sort of certificate of union where gay couples would be granted the privilege of paying more taxes than they did as single persons. I think if my best friend's and my wife pass before us, we will weight the options and determine if we want to get married. IT would be unconstitutional to deny us even if we are not gay nor that we love each other!
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Flow0440.... Some people are just not going to listen to....
Jun 30, 2015, 9:48 AM
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> Some people are just not going to listen to any opposing opinion that differs with their own.
This is a forum that has people with differing opinions, that's the whole point and contrary to your remark I do listen and respect other's opinions. And yes, I do respect and would fight for flow's right to his opinion but I am allowed to disagree with him. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy debating our disagreements. I find it to be fun and heck, I might even learn something.
The problem I have with flow's argument is that he is now moving the goal post. The question at hand is why a religion's person view on gay marriage should have any bearing on the definition or laws regarding it.
Now, flow has changed this to say that he is simply explaining how religious person's feel that it is infringing on their rights. ok.. but that's not answering the question. Religious people are allowed to believe whatever they'd like, what they aren't allowed to do is infringe on other's rights.
So again i pose the question, why do religious views get a say in a gay couples rights? Religious opposition to it is not a valid argument for our secular system of law.
However, if this new law WAS infringing on religious rights (i.e. forcing churches to marry gays), I would have a problem with it too. But I've yet to see this as part of the law.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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All-In [31896]
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Well...technically....
Jun 29, 2015, 11:15 PM
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you can get married in a church and not have a marriage license from the state.
It's just a matter if you want the state to consider you married for contractual/legal reasons.
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All-In [42167]
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Marriage "redefined"
Jun 29, 2015, 11:09 PM
[ in reply to I don't believe you're framing the point correctly... ] |
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When people claim this, it always goes back to Christianity.
And you know what? In America, a religion doesn't get to define our laws or our definition of marriage.
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All-In [31896]
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This isn't purely religious in nature....
Jun 29, 2015, 11:14 PM
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"They feel that marriage forms a stable environment for the raising of children and is in accordance with God's instruction. They feel that redefining marriage is another step that will serve to devalue marriage in our society, which could/will lead to further destabilization of the family structure, which has an impact on all parts of our society."
The historical definition of marriage being between 1 man and 1 woman stretches across many different countries and religions.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: This isn't purely religious in nature....
Jun 30, 2015, 10:50 AM
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But studies show that children are raised in an equally stable environment with gay parents.
Do you not care about those studies? It's empirical evidence that refutes your claim that heterosexual parents are required.
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All-In [26968]
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So-called "gay marriage" doesn't, in a vacuum,
Jun 29, 2015, 6:43 PM
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infringe on anyone's rights.
Similarly, if the government granted me the right to marry a pineapple, it wouldn't infringe on anyone's rights.
At some point, there will be a lawsuit about a religious organization refusing to perform a "same-sex marriage". We'll see which direction it goes. If it happened today, the religious organization would likely be protected.
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CU Medallion [54758]
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It very well WOULD infringe on my rights
Jun 29, 2015, 9:36 PM
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...IF it were MY pineapple you had eyes for...
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Orange Blooded [4983]
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It infringes on the rights of others
Jun 29, 2015, 7:10 PM
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when others are forced to support, endorse, or otherwise participate in a same-sex marriage against their religious consciences.
For example, let's say a person who is a marriage counselor by trade is also an orthodox Christian who believes what the Bible says in Romans chapter 1 about same-sex relations, and that person is approached by a gay "married" couple and asked to counsel that couple.
The counselor may think that since he believes homosexual relationships are sinful, that he should not act as counselor for this couple. If he refuses to counsel the couple, then the couple might sue the counselor, and could even put him out of business for refusing to counsel them, on the basis that their relationship is protected by law.
This is clearly a violation of the counselor's right to free exercise of religion.
We have already seen cases similar to this in several states where same-sex marriage was legalized before last week.
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CU Guru [1878]
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Re: It infringes on the rights of others
Jun 29, 2015, 7:21 PM
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> The counselor may think that since he believes homosexual relationships are sinful, that he should not act as counselor for this couple. If he refuses to counsel the couple, then the couple might sue the counselor, and could even put him out of business for refusing to counsel them, on the basis that their relationship is protected by law.
Or, like in any other profession, he would have to put aside his religious beliefs to act in the best interest of the gay couple in a professional manner. Just because he believes what they are doing is a sin doesn't mean he can't provide counseling services to them and hide his personal prejudices.
You're not supposed to inject orthodox religion into counseling anyway, so it wouldn't be a change. He wouldn't be forced to deny them counsel.
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All-In [26968]
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Re: It infringes on the rights of others
Jun 29, 2015, 7:25 PM
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"Or, like in any other profession, he would have to put aside his religious beliefs..."
Well, you said it yourself.
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Orange Blooded [4983]
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So you admit he has no religious freedom
Jun 29, 2015, 7:37 PM
[ in reply to Re: It infringes on the rights of others ] |
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because he would have to put aside his religious beliefs, or get sued, possibly being put out of business.
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Hall of Famer [21577]
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Re: So you admit he has no religious freedom
Jun 29, 2015, 10:00 PM
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Does he get to pick and choose which religious belief he doesn't want to serve a person based on?
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CU Guru [1878]
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Re: So you admit he has no religious freedom
Jul 1, 2015, 12:11 AM
[ in reply to So you admit he has no religious freedom ] |
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He would have to do the same for literally any clients. He can't go refusing Muslim or Jewish clients on the basis of their religion, either. I fail to see how this is any different.
Are you saying that businesses should be able to discriminate clients on the basis of religion?
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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I agree, it's a moral obligation which Christians should...
Jun 29, 2015, 11:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: It infringes on the rights of others ] |
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assume.
I'm not trying to rile you up in any way. I'd really like to know why a homosexual couple wouldn't prefer a homosexual counselor? It sees that a homosexual counselor would be much more qualified to help them.
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CU Guru [1878]
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Re: I agree, it's a moral obligation which Christians should...
Jul 1, 2015, 12:11 AM
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Oh, they likely would! I'm just trying to play along with the scenario presented.
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All-In [42167]
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Ah, this right-wing neo-fascist is still around?! Awesome.
Jun 29, 2015, 10:50 PM
[ in reply to It infringes on the rights of others ] |
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Hey, Spec. Thought you went in hiding after your blatantly idiotic support of the Iraq War and the war on terror. But I see a little homophobia has brought you out of the neo-fascist ########.
You see, the situation you proposed has never happened in America. Ever. Forever ever? Forever ever.
But I'm sure if you think I'm wrong, you can provide the links.
Now, it did happen in the U.K. in 2009. Gary McFarlane. But here's the thing: A PRIVATE organization decided to fire him for it. Surely you, as a (pseudo) conservative, supports a business deciding as they please with their employees.
Other than that, no, your claim is made up. No one has been sued in America for what you claimed. Sucks to suck.
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Orange Blooded [4983]
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Anyone who has followed the news has seen the lawsuits
Jun 30, 2015, 12:29 PM
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You wanted links. Way more than I can curate for you here...
http://bfy.tw/ai9
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Oculus Spirit [97719]
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For starters, they can now be sued for not performing a
Jun 29, 2015, 9:16 PM
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gay marriage, since it's a "right" now. Second, they will not be able to keep their tax exempt status if they do not perform gay marriages. Those are the two next attacks now that this door has been opened.
So this does infringe with the free practice of religion.
If you are a Christian, and donate to your church, and your church does not perform gay marriages, then you will find out in time. Count on it.
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All-In [42167]
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Can you please link me...
Jun 29, 2015, 9:31 PM
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To the parts of the SCOTUS ruling where it outlines what you claim can now happen?
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Oculus Spirit [97719]
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so would the voters who voted on the 14th amendment
Jun 30, 2015, 7:05 AM
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They would ask the same question if you told them it would legalize abortion and gay marriage. They would have asked the exact same question.
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All-In [42167]
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Can you just show me a link?***
Jun 30, 2015, 9:39 AM
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Oculus Spirit [97719]
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Patience...lawsuits take time.***
Jun 30, 2015, 4:19 PM
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Hall of Famer [21577]
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Re: For starters, they can now be sued for not performing a
Jun 29, 2015, 10:03 PM
[ in reply to For starters, they can now be sued for not performing a ] |
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This couldn't be any more wrong.
Churches were denying people the ability to not wed at their church long before gay rights were enacted. Further, I've heard many preachers give a sermon directly on a Presidential candidate they want and you don't see them getting their tax exempt status revoked.
Its just not going to happen. If it does, the GOP will pay pretending gay couple to sue so they can make issue out of it.
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All-In [31896]
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Curious, which specific churches or preachers....
Jun 29, 2015, 10:40 PM
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have you heard preach about a specific candidate to support?
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Hall of Famer [21577]
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Re: Curious, which specific churches or preachers....
Jun 30, 2015, 11:52 AM
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Taylors First Baptist was the worst.
There are others.
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CU Guru [1878]
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This is completely false
Jul 1, 2015, 12:14 AM
[ in reply to For starters, they can now be sued for not performing a ] |
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Churches have always been able to deny anyone marriage at their church. This right has not been taken away.
Perry Noble refuses to marry two people that have been living together un-married, for example.
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All-In [42167]
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I got it.
Jun 29, 2015, 10:33 PM
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It's pretty simple.
The new ruling requires Christians to attend gay weddings.
Oh. It doesn't? Okay.
Well, then, in that case, it requires Christians to buy them gifts off their registries for their weddings.
Oh. It doesn't do that? Okay. Well, then...
It requires Christians churches to hold gay wedding ceremonies.
Oh. Not that either?
Well... Maybe this? It flies straight in the face of the systematic oppression against gay people over the history of our nation? Is that one accurate?
Okay. Well, I got one right.
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All-In [31896]
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yawn***
Jun 29, 2015, 10:39 PM
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All-In [42167]
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Can you refute it? K thanks bye.***
Jun 29, 2015, 10:50 PM
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All-In [31896]
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a little sarcastic for my taste.....
Jun 29, 2015, 11:10 PM
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I think I've written more than enough above.
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All-In [42167]
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And you brought in religion
Jun 29, 2015, 11:18 PM
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This is America. Religion doesn't get to define marriage.
Got another argument?
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All-In [31896]
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wow...
Jun 29, 2015, 11:23 PM
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the question was about why Christians feel like their religious rights are violated by gay marriage. I tried to make the point that that's not what they feel directly concerned about regarding gay marriage...i.e. the statement that he didn't frame the question correctly.
I then said that some Christians feel a religious context to marriage, but the points I made in terms of it being an underpinning of society, stable family structure, etc...was not religious in nature.
There are plenty of reasons to oppose the changing of the definition of marriage with the court overriding the states...without bringing religion into it.
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All-In [42167]
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Please tell me
Jun 29, 2015, 11:25 PM
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How Joe Christian's individual, everyday rights to live in this nation, have now been changed by this ruling.
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All-In [42167]
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Can you also show me
Jun 29, 2015, 11:29 PM
[ in reply to wow... ] |
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Non-religious arguments against the changing of the "definition of marriage"?
And I want arguments that have absolutely no Christian connections at all, since you claim there are non-religious ones.
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All-In [31896]
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I'm not going to repeat myself for you....
Jun 30, 2015, 11:21 AM
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Read all of my posts on the subject. If you are still unclear, it's not my fault.
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All-In [28802]
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You should be familiar with responses to stuff like this by now...
Jun 29, 2015, 11:30 PM
[ in reply to wow... ] |
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It's the old Law of Merited Impossibility: none of what you're afraid will happen is going to happen, and when it does happen, you'll deserve it.
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All-In [42167]
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Law of Right Wing Conservatism
Jun 29, 2015, 11:32 PM
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"When equal rights are given to people different than me, I will spout butthurt from my ### like a robust rainbow."
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All-In [42167]
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Lemme get specific
Jun 29, 2015, 11:24 PM
[ in reply to a little sarcastic for my taste..... ] |
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Your words:
"Many Christians believe that marriage has it's root in our society as a sacred bond that has a religious context. They feel that marriage forms a stable environment for the raising of children and is in accordance with God's instruction. They feel that redefining marriage is another step that will serve to devalue marriage in our society, which could/will lead to further destabilization of the family structure, which has an impact on all parts of our society."
1. Again, Murica. Christians don't get to define marriage in this nation. See First and Fourteenth Amendment.
2. Stable child raising environments have existed in single parents homes and gay homes. Plenty of non-stable homes have existed in so called Christian homes. Sorry, try again.
Suck on this link. Suck on it hard.
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/foster-children-adopted-by-gay-239748
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All-In [31896]
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You win...you are now....
Jun 30, 2015, 11:26 AM
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The douchiest poster in this thread.
If you want to have a conversation...let's have it. If you want to write cleaver blog posts that guys in skinny jeans sit around and laugh at, then I'll leave you to it.
I'm a reasonable guy and I'm not throwing out crap arguments or just parroting talking points with no mind of my own. You throw this kind of trash out indescrimently now and frankly it's boring.
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All-In [28802]
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You could ask the Solicitor General why he thought that
Jun 29, 2015, 11:26 PM
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Because, when he was arguing on behalf of gay marriage, he said he thought conflict between religious exercise and gay marriage was expected.
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CU Guru [1723]
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Maybe you are creating a false arguement***
Jun 30, 2015, 7:31 AM
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Maybe you are creating a false arguement***
Jun 30, 2015, 9:24 AM
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I am? Weird, a simple Google search just showed me literally hundreds of articles from far right wingers claiming exactly what my OP asks.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Because.. uh... How will I explain this to my children!?
Jun 30, 2015, 9:40 AM
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/s
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110%er [7238]
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This is how it infringes on Rights and Violates US LAW
Jun 30, 2015, 12:23 PM
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http://libertyfirstnews.com/city-threatens-to-arrest-ministers-who-refuse-to-perform-same-sex-weddings/
While some have pointed out that this is a wedding Chapel that is for Profit, Weddings, Funerals, and Holiday Observances have been classified as religious practices for centuries long before the foundation of the United States and is covered in the Religious Freedoms Act. So the are exempt from conducting a wedding ceremony for whomever they deem unfit for marriage. It's a matter of one's own personal conscious. If someone is a conscientious objector to such lifestyles then they should NOT be forced under the rule of US Law to conduct such observances... Everybody has the right to refuse to partake in an event passively if it goes against their personal moral ethics or beliefs. HEY LGBT WELCOME TO AMERICA where everyone has rights including people who aren't gay.
Message was edited by: ChestyPuller0311®
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All-In [28802]
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