|
Replies: 19
| visibility 1
|
All-Pro [694]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 388
Joined: 6/8/00
|
Can someone explain the 12 man penalty in the Alabama game?
Nov 26, 2017, 5:54 PM
|
|
I don't claim to be a rules expert but it seems that Alabama often does things that everyone else thinks is a penalty but somehow it becomes a brilliant idea on the part of Saban.
My question is how can you get penalized for having 12 men on the field if the ball is snapped while the offense is still moving around and not set?
If the event that happened was within the rules then we should always snap the ball while the defense is substituting and we'd always gain 5 yards
|
|
|
|
 |
CU Guru [1761]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2022
Joined: 8/22/99
|
Re: Can someone explain the 12 man penalty in the Alabama game?
Nov 26, 2017, 5:56 PM
|
|
Refs missed the offensive penalty. It is not reviewable. 12 men on the field is one of only a few reviewable penalties and they reviewed it and it was a penalty.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [57049]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 39674
Joined: 11/12/04
|
“Missed”. LOL.***
Nov 26, 2017, 6:00 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1761]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2022
Joined: 8/22/99
|
Re: “Missed”. LOL.***
Nov 26, 2017, 6:05 PM
|
|
Touche... Ball doesn't lie though, Auburn stopped them on 4th down replay.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [57049]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 39674
Joined: 11/12/04
|
They “missed” a lot of Bama holding all day long too.
Nov 26, 2017, 6:10 PM
|
|
It’s just they way it is. SEC. it just means more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10631]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9259
Joined: 12/29/06
|
Re: Can someone explain the 12 man penalty in the Alabama game?
Nov 26, 2017, 6:38 PM
[ in reply to Re: Can someone explain the 12 man penalty in the Alabama game? ] |
|
You got it! However, the reason you just can't snap the ball during a substitution (most of the time) is because if the offense substituted, the ref will give the defense time to substitute and will stand behind the center until the defense has substituted. The reason we and others use the hurry-up offense is because the defense will not have time to sub. If they try, the offense can snap the ball and get a too many men (substitution) penalty.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10427]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4667
Joined: 11/23/03
|
The refs missed the illegal motion on Alabama
Nov 26, 2017, 5:57 PM
|
|
Too many men on the field is reviewable under the rules. Illegal motion is not reviewable under the rules. Simple as that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2420]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2471
Joined: 3/26/07
|
Re: The refs missed the illegal motion on Alabama
Nov 26, 2017, 6:31 PM
|
|
How about to many men in the backfield?
Message was edited by: tigersnake1954®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4035]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3527
Joined: 8/19/03
|
it is a bit confusing - but
Nov 26, 2017, 5:58 PM
|
|
The call was correct.
Having 12 men on the field is reviewable.
Illegal motion is not.
What is causing the issue is that the refs should have flagged both issues, which would have been a - replay the down.
As they missed the illegal motion - how the heck they did that? - then the 12 man issue arose.
Was on the refs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [27366]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 26233
Joined: 9/19/11
|
It's called the Alabama exception.
Nov 26, 2017, 6:00 PM
|
|
There's a 30-page addendum with them all listed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [305]
TigerPulse: 34%
Posts: 736
Joined: 10/19/08
|
Re: Can someone explain the 12 man penalty in the Alabama game?
Nov 26, 2017, 6:08 PM
|
|
Huge break for Alabama
Auburn held them on fourth down soon after that. Bama's wide receiver built like Hercules couldn't get a yard after the catch. Must not have any Renfro in him. Haha
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3571]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4500
Joined: 11/9/03
|
In Alabama’s defense and the refs, the play
Nov 26, 2017, 6:09 PM
|
|
in question was a “Chinese Fire Drill.”
The center snapped the ball early while the RB was calling a line adjustment or something. I think it caught the refs off as well as Hurts when the ball was inadvertent snapped.
Should illegal motion have been called? Yes. My question is who decided to review the play? Was it buzzed down to ref or did somebody on Bama sideline catch it?
Either way it did t help Bama as they didn’t get 1st down on next play and turned the ball over on downs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [963]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 828
Joined: 10/31/16
|
None of you are correct...and neither was the CBS TV crew...
Nov 26, 2017, 10:56 PM
|
|
None of the assumed explanations by members here are correct. The CBS commentary team, as commentary teams often are, was also incorrect in its explanation. The reason Auburn's foul is assessed is as follows:
- "Too many men on the field" can reference two different types of fouls. We can have either (1) an illegal substitution or (2) illegal participation. Illegal substitution (sometimes referred to as a substitution infraction) is a dead-ball foul, penalized five yards from the succeeding spot (the spot on the field at which the next snap would have taken place had the penalty not occurred). Illegal participation occurs during a down, thus it is a live-ball foul, penalized 15 yards from the previous spot.
- Officials are taught to be as preventative as possible when evaluating these types of fouls. Officials will communicate with coaches and/or players on the field to tell them, "you've got 12" or, "get one off guys" to try to have them avoid the penalty. The key to understanding the Auburn play is this...prior to being a reviewable play, officials were always taught that if you're going to assess that foul, to do your best to get it pre-snap...because you're only penalizing the team five yards, instead of 15. Hitting a team with a 15 yard foul also led to many coaches saying, "well if you guys would have told us or done your jobs, you would have only gotten us for five instead of 15." This led to the play being reviewed as a pre-snap foul.
- Now that the play is a reviewable play, the replay official is ALWAYS going to evaluate, if possible, for an illegal substitution (pre-snap). Because the foul is a dead-ball foul, the live-ball foul is not considered (there was never technically a legal snap, due to retroactively applying a dead-ball foul to the play itself). In order to have offsetting fouls and count Alabama's illegal SHIFT (it is not illegal motion when multiple men are in motion...it is illegal shift), they would have had to call an illegal participation foul on Auburn, which they didn't...because we saw that Auburn was penalized only five yards.
- Bottom line...the foul (illegal substitution) was a dead-ball foul, which was added to the play via replay. A dead-ball foul will always not allow any live-ball fouls to be considered. Thus the crew was correct in its application of the rule.
Sources: Officiating Experience (lots of years) and NCAA Football Rules Book (Rule 3, Section 5 (Substitutions), Article 3).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4139]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5535
Joined: 12/26/05
|
Re: None of you are correct...and neither was the CBS TV crew...
Nov 26, 2017, 11:07 PM
|
|
interesting... here's a question : if it is a dead ball foul, it does not seem reasonable or legal that an offense could snap the ball, run a "free" play, and then decline the penalty if they like the result of the play, and yet you see it all the time. A pre snap dead ball foul should nullify the play, right ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4139]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5535
Joined: 12/26/05
|
Re: None of you are correct...and neither was the CBS TV crew...
Nov 26, 2017, 11:09 PM
|
|
is nfl rule different from ncaa ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [963]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 828
Joined: 10/31/16
|
Re: None of you are correct...and neither was the CBS TV crew...
Nov 26, 2017, 11:20 PM
[ in reply to Re: None of you are correct...and neither was the CBS TV crew... ] |
|
The only time you see a "free" play is when you have an offside penalty, which is a live, simultaneous-with the snap foul. On the other hand offside by contact or offside with a player unimpeded to the quarterback is blown dead (both mainly for safety reasons). I'm not sure what other "free play" scenario you would be referring to.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4139]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5535
Joined: 12/26/05
|
Re: None of you are correct...and neither was the CBS TV crew...
Nov 26, 2017, 11:24 PM
|
|
you see free play on quick snap with 12th man running off field all the time, bro
|
|
|
|
|
|
Starter [372]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 406
Joined: 4/10/10
|
Re: None of you are correct...and neither was the CBS TV crew...
Nov 26, 2017, 11:12 PM
[ in reply to None of you are correct...and neither was the CBS TV crew... ] |
|
You are wrong. What caused the penalties,called and not called, was the snap of the ball. Illegal substitution was live ball. There are plenty of times during the game there are too many players on the field during dead ball periods. It is not a foul. The players in motion at the snap shows the horrid officiating in college football. It is the worst of any sport at any level. There are 5 officials that should have had flags on the snap on the motion. Both wings, umpire, referee, and the “C” official. Back judge and wing should have had the 12 player foul. If Alabama had gotten a first down the crew should have lost a game assignment
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [963]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 828
Joined: 10/31/16
|
Re: None of you are correct...and neither was the CBS TV crew...
Nov 26, 2017, 11:51 PM
|
|
After further review (pun completely intended), I humbly stand corrected. By this scenario, this was a live ball foul, and therefore, there was a missed foul on the play. While there are substitution infractions and illegal substitutions that are of a dead-ball variety (they mostly deal with a failure to leave the field of play within a certain amount of time after you're the 12th player on the field as a substitute), those definitions don't fit this particular play. Thank you for correcting me. Another good indicator that a dead ball foul was not called is that the crew did not make any clock adjustments after the review, which they would have been required to do, had a dead-ball foul occurred.
My bad, gentlemen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Commissioner [963]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 828
Joined: 10/31/16
|
Re: None of you are correct...and neither was the CBS TV crew...
Nov 27, 2017, 1:37 AM
[ in reply to Re: None of you are correct...and neither was the CBS TV crew... ] |
|
After contacting a friend of mine who is a linesman in the ACC, he told me that the play was making its rounds amongst assigners in the Power 5 conferences, and he also claimed that there were two errors (one small and one larger) made on the review/play (via the penalty report that is submitted by the officials to the SEC league office). The penalty was reported as a substitution infraction, which is a pre-snap, dead-ball foul. So I was originally partially correct and partially incorrect in that. The Referee, in his announcement, made the small error of not announcing a substitution infraction, instead saying "12 men on the field," which can be either foul type. The larger error made by the crew was the failure to correct the time on the clock to what it was when the snap occurred. Just wanted to add that, for what it's worth.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 19
| visibility 1
|
|
|
50
