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Where I come from, the nation of Israel...
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Where I come from, the nation of Israel...


Jan 15, 2019, 3:27 PM

is put on a very significant pedestal. I don't know how widely it branches out in religious denominations, but I can tell you that the fundamental Baptist crowd is emphatic about applying Genesis 12:3 (God to Abraham, "I will bless them that bless thee", etc.) to politics. As you know, this is also an extremely patriotic demographic. I've actually heard many times, "America is the greatest nation on earth, except for Israel." I've heard, many times, "I think we should cut off money going to all these countries, except for Israel, they should get more." They believe, that by doing so, they are performing an act of obedience toward God. I would say, in this demographic, the #1 litmus test for a politician is the stance on the murder of the unborn, and #2 is how they treat Israel.

The application of this promise, given to Abraham, to the sovereign nation/government formed in 1948 is a stretch, to me. I'm not sure God was saying "I will bless whomever helps a nation-state whose people are largely descended from you." The narrowest application, which is often the best, is that God was simply speaking directly of the individual, Abraham. I think the broadest application could be that we should be good to people of Abrahamic descent, wherever they are. Of course, we should be good to people of all descents. I don't think I would agree with everything that the nation of Israel does, and I don't think God really wants me to.

Also, since Ishmael was also Abraham's seed, then the same Genesis 12:3 should apply to Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc., the same way it does to the nation of Israel, if it so applies.

I was just thinking about this, as an offshoot of a discussion I was having below about political stances toward the nation of Israel.

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Where I come from, the nation of Israel,


Jan 15, 2019, 3:31 PM

is the place that keeps you from the path to he##,
Old Testament, Torah, Halakha, Siddur,
Just don't bring dat New Testament stuff round hur.

Word to ya mutha.

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not so much in Methodism. at times we have boycotted


Jan 15, 2019, 3:33 PM

American companies that do business with Israel because of the way Israel treats the Palestinians.

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I figured mainline Protestants wouldn't really be


Jan 15, 2019, 3:35 PM

on that train. Certainly not Catholics either, I would think.

What I do wonder, is how strident Southern Baptists, or others in the "evangelical" category are in their pro-Israel stances. There is probably a spectrum here, with these very conservative Baptists being on one end.

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CA's church isn't the norm. They even let


Jan 15, 2019, 3:36 PM

women preach the Word there.

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I would say that's pretty norm these days.***


Jan 15, 2019, 3:37 PM



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maybe in San Fran or NYC,


Jan 15, 2019, 3:38 PM

not in Godly places though.

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And I also wonder about the chicken/egg thing...


Jan 15, 2019, 3:36 PM [ in reply to I figured mainline Protestants wouldn't really be ]

Does the "conservative" stance typically very pro-Israel find root in the religious stance, or is it the other way around?

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I've talked to a lot of those people who are under the


Jan 15, 2019, 3:34 PM

impression that Israel is a Christian nation.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


and that the Palestinians are all Muslim


Jan 15, 2019, 3:54 PM

They're shocked to find Christians in Palestine

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I understand what you mean, but it's not really the


Jan 15, 2019, 4:58 PM

same thing.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Re: Where I come from, the nation of Israel...


Jan 15, 2019, 3:55 PM

I would try to explain Gods law and redemption, but I doubt you would understand it any more than you are Jew from Israel.

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Did you mean to reply to me?


Jan 15, 2019, 3:56 PM

I don't understand your response.

I'd say, without trying to sound prideful, that I understand God's law and redemption probably as well as anybody in here.

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There is one, and ONLY one, meme to place here


Jan 15, 2019, 7:03 PM

.



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I've always heard they support Israel b/c of the "end times"


Jan 15, 2019, 4:10 PM

and the role Israel supposedly plays in that prophesy.

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Guess that depends on you rperspective of the Rapture


Jan 15, 2019, 4:58 PM

and when that takes place. From my perspective, it is all about Israel after the Rapture. Before the Rapture, it is all about the grace and the church.

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John 3:16; 14:1-6


That would be the pre-tribulation Rapture view


Jan 15, 2019, 5:00 PM

that would be widely espoused by the demographic I am referring to (and I am part of that demographic).

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Well, certainly I would agree that much of the


Jan 15, 2019, 4:58 PM [ in reply to I've always heard they support Israel b/c of the "end times" ]

events described in Revelation are centered on the people of Israel. However, I don't see the logic in that influencing our politics toward them now. We can't "help" them along to the events of prophecy...that's happening no matter what we do.

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By "people of Israel", is Revelations talking about the


Jan 15, 2019, 5:02 PM

Nation of Israel as we know it today? I know you touched on this earlier but just want to be sure I understand what you are saying.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


That's a good question...


Jan 15, 2019, 5:10 PM

Certainly I believe that many of the events described in the Revelation reflect the existence of a nation of Israel, because much of it is about governments and wars, etc. I don't know if I'd say "as we know it today," because I don't think things will just stay the exact same, but I do believe the political framework currently exists for the occurrence of these events.

In general, when the Bible talks about "Israel," it's referring to an ethnic group (descendants of Israel), not a particular nation's citizenry. But in Revelation, there's a big geopolitical aspect.

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I would like to say, I'm not a prophecy expert...


Jan 15, 2019, 5:14 PM

So I'm sure I could be picked apart here. I am posting as far my understanding goes, and I'll try not to overstep my bounds.

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Aren't the only prophecy experts the ones


Jan 15, 2019, 5:34 PM

who are chosen to receive them? Otherwise how would you know it was a prophecy?

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I believe in the divine inspiration of the Bible...


Jan 15, 2019, 5:36 PM

So I would say we've all received it. Some have read it and studied it more than others, and I'm not near the top of the list.

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I don't think so.


Jan 16, 2019, 5:57 PM [ in reply to Aren't the only prophecy experts the ones ]

I think Jack Van Empe and some of the other modern preachers who claim to be experts on the subject of prophesy want people to believe that but if you'll examine what they say in light of the Old Testament standards set for for Prophets they'd all be taken outside the city walls and be stoned to death.

A prophet didn't guess, he knew. A prophet of God was never wrong but often scorned while others were put to death for faking it.

There's a certain way to view the Revelations and yours is like everyone else's. Need to know, ability to remain silent long enough to hear it and its application to your life. I found no need to know though at times I was able to have a still heart and it is certain that it had no bearing on my life except for being a distraction.(1) I spent 25 years studying prophesy. I started in the early to mid 1970s and read everything I could get my hands on starting with Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth.' He would have been stoned in 1987 for his predictions. :) I might have thrown a couple, myself. I did it of sheer want to see Christ in the flesh. Very selfish of me.

Imo, all these men saw a puzzle without border pieces and every time they got two pieces to match they wrote a book. Filthy lucer, imo.

1. Somewhere in the mid 1990s it became apparent that if I wanted to speed the return of Christ I would share the gospel instead of prophesy. It occurred to me that until every last lost person who was predestined to heaven was saved Christ would not return. Of all the years of study that is the one truth I learned from prophesy.

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Interesting take on it, and I appreciate the thoughts, but


Jan 18, 2019, 10:29 AM

it's sort of counter to the whole reason he came in the first place.

Also...."predestined"? Presbyterian high five!

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Re: Where I come from, the nation of Israel...


Jan 15, 2019, 9:06 PM

My father is a Southern Baptist preacher and we have had this discussion before. He interprets it or has been taught that "Israel" is the nation of Israel. I'm not sure how people come to that conclusion considering the following verses....

Romans 9:8- That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but the children of the promise are considered to be the offspring.

Galatians 3:29- And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, heirs according to the promise.

I believe that the church is "Israel", and the church is made up of whoever has put their faith in Jesus.

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That is indisputable.***


Jan 16, 2019, 6:00 PM



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Re: Where I come from, the nation of Israel...


Jan 16, 2019, 12:00 PM

The modern nation in the middle East calling itself Israel is not made up of descendants of ancient Israel or the southern kingdom of Judah.
Read Rev. 2:9 & 3:9. Those two verses will tell you who they are.

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My church is too into it, IMO.


Jan 18, 2019, 8:08 AM

The church prayers always include "the peace of Jerusalem" and they do a trip to Israel every other year.

Wife and I have been watching "Shtisel" on Netflix. Good show but highlights how silly some of the Israel worship among conservative Christians is - the hardcore Jews look down on all Gentiles.

But over the years I've been in churches that have a Seder meal around Eastertime, have the Israeli flag next to the Christian flag, etc.

I get it on one level (Christianity is derived from Judaism), but it gets carried too far, IMO.

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Very interesting post. I think interpreting God's Word


Jan 18, 2019, 10:25 AM

represents a tricky proposition. If man's comprehension is so far removed from God's omniscience, then how can such a lowly, corrupt-able, inferior perception ever hope to specifically attach God's Word to nuanced political policies on Earth? Especially when the vast majority of people barely understand what is going on with Israel. Seems like, at least, people should be cautious and humble trying to apply their religion to their foreign-policy leanings. The opposite tends to be true. They here a preacher say it, and it aligns with their temporal bias, and they run with it going 100mph. This is why, historically speaking, religious emphasis tends to bend itself around temporal expediency.

Either way, I can't help but feel that we should look at the specifics of what is going on with Israel and make decisions that way. Even the religious may want to remove their religious leanings from the debate as they are likely to misapply what they misperceive from either direction.

Christianity tends to be a more personal, orthodoxical religion, whereas Islam is more of the political, orthopraxical religion.

Even though I am not religious at all, I applaud you for trying to think carefully, even if it is from a religious perspective. ;)

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Re: Where I come from, the nation of Israel...


Jan 20, 2019, 3:59 PM

To make it simple to understand evangelical support of Israel the bottom line is that they believe 2/3 of them must die and the final 1/3 must convert for their belief to become realized. Not great for Israeli’s but they will gladly take their support and dollars in the earthly realm.

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