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Replies: 66
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All-In [43992]
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Brownell vs Purnell
Feb 18, 2015, 9:05 PM
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I keep seeing Brownell compared to Purnell, and am disappointed to hear people's opinion that Brownell is doing poorly while "Purnell had us in the NCAA Tournament every year." I like Brownell a lot, and I liked Purnell a lot. The only way to accurately compare them is to look at their first four seasons, as Brownell is currently in his fifth season.
Oliver Purnell
2003-2004: 10-18 overall, 3-13 in ACC (9th out of 9 teams, no postseason play)
2004-2005: 16-16 overall, 5-11 in ACC (9th out of 11 teams, NIT first round)
2005-2006: 19-15 overall, 7-9 in ACC (9th out of 12 teams, NIT second round)
2006-2007: 25-11 overall, 7-9 in ACC (T-8th out of 12 teams, NIT runner-up)
Total for first four years: 70-60, 22-42 in ACC
Brad Brownell
2010-2011: 22-12, 9-7 in ACC (T-4th out of 12 teams, NCAA second round)
2011-2012: 16-15, 8-8 in ACC (7th out of 12 teams, no postseason play)
2012-2013: 13-18, 5-13 in ACC (11th out of 12 teams, no postseason play)
2013-2014: 23-13, 10-8 in ACC (6th out of 15 teams, NIT semifinals)
Total for first four years: 74-58, 32-36 in ACC
Purnell made three NCAA Tournaments, in his fifth, sixth, and seventh year. Brownell is unlikely to make the NCAA Tournament in his fifth year, barring an incredible run to finish our season. But he did make it in his first year, and arguably would have made it this year had McDaniels not turned pro.
Some discredit Brownell's NCAA Tournament appearance in his first season, saying that it was with Purnell's players. However, Brownell coached them and Purnell arguably would not have been able to get as much out of those players. But I would argue that if Brownell's coaching job that year is downgraded because they were OP's players, then he should get more credit for this year in having us on the bubble with McDaniels' unexpected departure. We were a bubble team this year, and with K.J., we would have surely been an NCAA Tournament team.
Many people point to Brownell's "poor recruiting." I agree, it needs to improve. But he is trending upward. Our best and highest rated players are young: Blossomgame (4-star, sophomore) and Grantham (4-star, freshman) represent a significant uptick in recruiting. Hudson (4-star PG for next year) is also a nice pickup. Brownell is doing this with facilities which are among the worst in the ACC right now. Purnell came into a situation with a brand new arena and practice facility. While they were not the best in the ACC then, they were certainly an advantage then (compared to facilities being a hindrance right now for Brownell).
We know Brownell can develop talent, and with improving talent and new facilities on the way, I honestly think we are in good hands. Brownell's first four years certainly compare favorably to Purnell's first four at Clemson, and I feel confident that we can have this same discussion several years from now and Brownell will still compare very favorably. In fact, I think we will be very pleased with what he will have done by then.
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CU Guru [1464]
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Wrong. OP took over a terrible team, BB a tourney team.***
Feb 18, 2015, 9:17 PM
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110%er [5513]
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this ^
Feb 18, 2015, 9:23 PM
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All-In [43992]
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I'm not "wrong."
Feb 18, 2015, 9:57 PM
[ in reply to Wrong. OP took over a terrible team, BB a tourney team.*** ] |
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I used wins and losses to compare them over their first four full seasons. That is the best objective measure we have.
The players Purnell inherited from Shyatt couldn't have been too bad since they beat two top 15 teams in Purnell's first year, and four teams who made the NCAA Tournament that year. That 2003-2004 Purnell team also had Sharrod Ford, who went on to play briefly in the NBA and is still playing overseas. It also had Shawan Robinson, who is the sixth best three point shooter in Clemson history. Akin Akingbala also went on to a career in Europe, as did Olu Babalola. Finally, that team also had four star recruits in Chris Hobbs and Chey Christie, both of whom also played overseas professionally.
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110%er [5513]
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110%er [9023]
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Re: OP set the table, BB ran with it
Feb 19, 2015, 2:42 PM
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With what OP put on the table, Browlee did a good job.
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All-In [37023]
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everyone should also realize, with the exception of the
Feb 19, 2015, 2:45 PM
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upper classman, Purnell left the cupboard very bare too. Brownell had to do a lot of starting over after that first year.
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110%er [9023]
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Re: everyone should also realize, with the exception of the
Feb 19, 2015, 8:15 PM
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And that's what everyone seems to be ignoring. It's like BB is building a program from nearly scratch.
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Zealot [868]
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I agree with a lot of your post....but
Feb 18, 2015, 9:22 PM
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How in god's name can you say OP wouldn't have got as much out of that 2010-2011 team?
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All-In [43992]
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I believe that Purnell saw the writing on the wall.
Feb 18, 2015, 10:00 PM
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His recruiting was not going as well, and he missed on some key recruits that last cycle. He knew that a decline in our performance in 2010-2011 would lower his stock, and he had a nice offer from DePaul to rebuild their program so he took it.
I don't think he would have done poorly in 2010-2011 at Clemson, but to assume that he would have done just as well as Brownell simply because he recruited those players is risky logic in my opinion.
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110%er [5513]
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Its risky to think he would have done better
Feb 18, 2015, 10:07 PM
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With his players that were recruited for his system? I agree he may have saw the writing on the wall but he most def would have done as much if not more simply bc he set the stage for our success that year.
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All-TigerNet [14451]
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Re: I believe that Purnell saw the writing on the wall.
Feb 18, 2015, 10:07 PM
[ in reply to I believe that Purnell saw the writing on the wall. ] |
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you are correct. purnells wife told him to get out of clemson or she would. think it is called the rick barnes disease
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All-In [43992]
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I have heard that rumor about Purnell before. Is it true?***
Feb 18, 2015, 10:11 PM
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Legend [19352]
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Re: I have heard that rumor about Purnell before. Is it true?***
Feb 19, 2015, 2:50 PM
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yes it is. She was driving that car that took him out of clemson.
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All-TigerNet [11161]
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110%er [5513]
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So OP wouldnt be able to do what BB
Feb 18, 2015, 9:25 PM
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Did with HIS players recruited to run HIS system?! You cant be serious!
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All-In [43992]
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Do you think Shyatt would have done better than Purnell
Feb 18, 2015, 10:03 PM
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in 2003-2004? Because I don't, despite the fact that Shyatt recruited those players for his system.
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110%er [5513]
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Shyatt didnt create a culture of winning
Feb 18, 2015, 10:11 PM
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OP set the table for BB 1st year.
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All-In [43992]
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Do you give Brownell any credit for making the NCAAs
Feb 18, 2015, 10:12 PM
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his first year?
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110%er [5513]
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Both men deserve credit
Feb 18, 2015, 10:16 PM
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110%er [7831]
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Re: Both men deserve credit
Feb 19, 2015, 3:32 PM
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Do they both get credited with the losses?
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Orange Blooded [2438]
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With all due respect, I hope my grandkids live to see..
Feb 18, 2015, 10:20 PM
[ in reply to Shyatt didnt create a culture of winning ] |
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A consistently winning basketball "culture" here. It would be a great time. But let's not pretend in the meantime. For now we have, as an earlier poster said, the program we merit based on our historical level of interest and investment.
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110%er [5513]
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OP had us at that level
Feb 18, 2015, 10:22 PM
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We were running Duke out of the gym and LJ was a feared home court advantage
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All-In [43992]
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He had us there for three years.
Feb 18, 2015, 10:24 PM
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Those were great times, for sure. I'm not confident he would have sustained that the following year and in the years to come though. I don't think he was either.
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110%er [5513]
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He built us into a winner, BB stepped into a winner
Feb 18, 2015, 10:26 PM
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And hasnt done much since...
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Orange Blooded [2438]
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Not the level I mean.
Feb 18, 2015, 10:49 PM
[ in reply to OP had us at that level ] |
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This is what I hope for:
1) Above.500 in league EVERY
year.
2) Reach semis of ACC tournament 1/3 years.
3) Reach round of 32 every other year.
4) Reach Sweet 16 1/3 years.
5) Reach Elite 8 1/5 years.
Yes I am drinking. One more Angry Orchard and I'll have us in the Final Four.......rant over. But that's what I define as a winning culture. 
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All-In [43992]
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I share your passion for that winning culture!
Feb 18, 2015, 11:23 PM
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I get so annoyed when Clemson fans say "we will never be competitive with UNC and Duke" or "we shouldn't expect to be an NCAA Tournament team every year." WHY NOT?!? I don't care how bad we have been in the past, or how much of a "football school" we are. We can control our future, and if we will commit to the basketball program, we can be great. I think DRad gets that more than most other AD's we have had.
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CU Medallion [58376]
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Now there's something we can agree on!***
Feb 18, 2015, 11:26 PM
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CU Medallion [58376]
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I agree that the expectation should be for our basketball
Feb 18, 2015, 11:25 PM
[ in reply to Not the level I mean. ] |
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program to be better than it's ever been, and there is no reason it can't be. We may never be as consistently good as UNC or Dook, but there is clearly a level above where we've ever been before that is very achievable.
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CU Guru [1746]
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Re: Brownell vs Purnell
Feb 18, 2015, 9:29 PM
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I don't like to compare the two but while Brownell does deserve credit for the NCAA appearance in his first year....it was Purnells guys and was a group that was used to winning and that's all they knew.
I would argue Purnell would've been more successful. Brownell inherited a program in solid position and on the upswing and then the change in style of play altered the direction of the program and this resulted in some down seasons.
Brownell does have the program on the right track but it's debatable how much time he should be given. I like Brownell. Unless he can get some playmakers then we'll never consistently make the NCAA tourney. We'll have that one good year once every 4 yrs when he has a veteran roster, then it's back to routine fight for NIT.
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Zealot [868]
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^^on the money^^
Feb 18, 2015, 9:33 PM
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+1
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All-In [43992]
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I agree with you about Brownell's need for more playmakers.
Feb 18, 2015, 10:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: Brownell vs Purnell ] |
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A lot of fans forget how difficult it is to improve basketball recruiting overnight. Basketball, more than football, is about relationships. These relationships aren't just with high school coaches, but with AAU coaches as well, since AAU is arguably a more important proving ground for players than their high school team. Brownell is clearly developing those relationships, as recruiting is clearly improved over the last few recruiting cycles.
Our most talented players with the biggest upside are also our youngest, which is a good trend. I think Blossomgame and Grantham will develop into reliable playmakers. I am also optimistic that our two PGs next year, Holmes and Hudson, possess the skills to develop into that kind of player as well.
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110%er [9023]
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Re: Brownell vs Purnell
Feb 20, 2015, 8:55 AM
[ in reply to Re: Brownell vs Purnell ] |
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Not sure I understand the logic on "Purnell would be more successful..." He wasn't, players stopped playing for him and stopped coming here to play for him. BB had to rebuild after OP left. He's showing at DP that he is more flash than substance.
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Zealot [868]
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Re: Brownell vs Purnell
Feb 20, 2015, 1:34 PM
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Not sure you understand the logic?
Are you blind?
When OP left Clemson basketball was on the map. He had a team full of players that he recruited and developed to play in his system. Common sense says he could have taken our last tournament team farther than Brownie.
And what has your boy done since with his own players?
NOTHING.
Year 5 OP's program was clearly on the rise and it stayed there.
This program is not on the rise. It's wallowing in mediocrity.
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CU Medallion [58376]
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Instead of comparing the first 4 years of each, let's look a
Feb 18, 2015, 10:18 PM
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where the program was when each coach got here, and where it was 5 years later.
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All-In [43992]
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Seriously?
Feb 18, 2015, 10:23 PM
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With that logic, Danny Ford didn't improve our football program very much. He inherited a 10-1 team, one of the best in the history of Clemson football, and finished his last year with a 10-2 team. I guess his accomplishments weren't that impressive, considering what he inherited.
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CU Medallion [58376]
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Purnell took a team that had won 42% of it's games over
Feb 18, 2015, 11:00 PM
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the previous 4 years and won 54% over the next 4. That was an improvement. In his 5th year he went to the NCAA, something that hadn't been done in a long time. The trend was up.
Brownell took a team that won 69% of it's games (55% in conference) over the previous 4 years and proceeded to win 56% (47%) over the next 4. That is a drop-off. In his 5th year, he probably won't go to the NCAA for the 4th year in a row.
Those are the numbers. We improved significantly during Purnell's first 4 years, while we dropped off during Brownell's first 4 years. There may be some contributing factors beyond Brownell's control (I certainly believe there are), but those are the facts.
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110%er [5513]
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^ end of discussion.
Feb 18, 2015, 11:03 PM
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110%er [9023]
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Re: ^ end of discussion.
Feb 20, 2015, 8:56 AM
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if you don't want to consider logic.
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CU Guru [1099]
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Re: Brownell vs Purnell
Feb 18, 2015, 11:54 PM
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Brownell did do 1 thing with Purnell's players that OP could not do- win an NCAA game. And that wasn't as good of a roster as OP had with Mays and Booker and TO.
Recruiting isn't a 1 year deal in basketball. Brownell had to get established here 1st. His 3rd year on, our recruiting has been solid. And it's only getting better.
There is no reason to compare the 2 really. Those who slam BB simply don't like his style of play and prefer style over substance. It's a common character flaw among society.
Some just know better and are able to see beyond the glitter and shine.
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Zealot [868]
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Zealot [868]
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Wrong again
Feb 19, 2015, 8:57 PM
[ in reply to Wrong again ] |
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This is the same guy who said he would want OP back... what a clown. You have to be a troll.
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Zealot [868]
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Re: Wrong again
Feb 19, 2015, 10:16 PM
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Yea why would I want a coach back that had us playing our best basketball ever as opposed to what we have now?
Crazy ain't it?
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Wrong again
Feb 19, 2015, 10:53 PM
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Maybe because some of us have a little pride and would not welcome back a coach who left the way he did?
Sorry you have no pride. I am not shocked though with your pathetic post history.
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Legend [18003]
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You can't compare them simply b/c they are diff coaches
Feb 18, 2015, 11:58 PM
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with different styles. OP got away with a lot because of his system (press) which didn't need to recruit "basketball players," as much as it needed athletes. It worked up to a point. That point being winning in the NCAA tournament. I think OP knew the limits of where he could take Clemson Basketball and he got us as far as he could. He then left. HOW he left hurt and was ridiculously craven and should still leave a bad taste in all Clemson basketball fan's mouths.
Enter Brownell whose system is a complete 180 from OP. He relies on basketball players to make his system work and relies on defense in the half-court. He has to recruit a different type of player. He got lucky his first year that we had some senior leadership and a strong post player in Grant but the younger players were not good fits for his system (and not really for OP's system either). Basically he was going to have to rebuild the program with all new players and a new culture. Think about how long it took Dabo to change things with the Football team and the criticisms he took for not building a winning program immediately. He had a much easier job than does Brownell. Changing coaches almost always causes teams to take a step back (if they were previously good).
Brownell also had bad luck with injuries (Blossomgame being a year behind probably kept us from going to the NCAA tournament last year), transfers, coaches being hired and no support from the Administration/fans. I don't know if it's just me, but it feels like the program is finally gaining some rhythm and Brownell has the foundation being set for a run in recruiting. We've been consistently one of the better defensive teams and finishing right behind the top teams in the conference. The next step is becoming more consistent offensively which has been frustrating to watch develop, but I think we're about to turn the corner there too. If we don't make the NCAA tournament in the next 2 years I will be very surprised and at that point we may need to make a change. But again, that will be surprising. (The move to playing games in greenville will be an interesting obstacle to watch...)
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Brownell vs Purnell
Feb 19, 2015, 1:12 AM
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I think of the example of Jerai Grant - 6ppg under OP and 15ppg under Brad. Also, the first year with only 1 "no-star" recruit who left after that season was a "hole" in Brad's roster for 4-years - similar to the Dandy Dozen in Dabo's first year.
I don't really understand all the transfers but I'm sure each one has a good explanation.
As for Larry Shyatt, he's proven himself to be a solid coach. But I think he knew he didn't have much respect from the league, ref's, etc. I think he was the coach for that game at UNC where they shot 45-something FT's....
I favor the idea that OP got his team to a certain point and may never have been able to get over the top. Combine that with some recruiting set backs and a good offer from a basketball school in a strong league and he took it....
Hang in there Brad.
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CU Guru [1950]
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The first thing I noticed when seeing Purnell's record is
Feb 19, 2015, 3:12 PM
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that each year the number of losses for Purnell's teams went lower and lower each year from 18 to 16 to 15 to 11 to 10 to 9 and then 11 in his final year. He improved on his number of losses 5 years in a row.
Brownell went from 12 to 15 to 18 to 13, and this year we're looking like we'll have at least 15 again. Rather than the improvement we saw each year with Purnell, Brownell is more or less floundering around.
To be clear though, I'm not on the "Fire Brownell" wagon. I don't think it makes sense financially, and I'd like to see where Blossomgame and Grantham can take us. The next 2 seasons are crucial though.
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Oculus Spirit [79990]
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I did not read all of the responses, but I think there is a
Feb 19, 2015, 4:16 PM
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big difference from a talent standpoint from when each coach took over. When Purnell took over, our program had been on rock bottom a long time from the Shyatt years. However, when Brownell took over we had upgraded our talent pool. Instead of continuing to upgrade our talent, we took a step back and even had guys transfer out at an alarming rate without replacing them with decent players.
I know that all programs suffer from attrition after a coaching change, but not at the rate we have seen the last few years. I liked Purnell, and I also like Brownell. Both are very personable and easy to get along with. I like the recent additions that Brownell has made with Bgame and Grantham. I'm hoping one of the new pg's steps up next year and that Brownell can find an elite big man. Hopefully things will turn around soon. Go Tigers.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: I did not read all of the responses, but I think there is a
Feb 19, 2015, 4:24 PM
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You should actually do a little more research into things and you would see we were a very very top heavy team from a talent stand point when Brownell took over.
Our 2009 recruiting class that was supposed to be OPs star class was full of busts and the 2010 class didnt exist due to OP leaving in the middle of the night late in the cycle.
That left us with two years of holes. OP didnt leave the program in nearly as good of shape as some people try to make believe.
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Oculus Spirit [79990]
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Research, huh? Well let's see, in addition to being a season
Feb 19, 2015, 8:53 PM
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And what did those guys do at other schools?
Oh yea a whole hell of a lot of nothing. The class was full of busts.
Once again do the research then get back to me. My mom goes to Clemson Football games that doesnt make her smart about the game. You attending games doesnt mean jack #### about your knowledge. Your posts here are screaming that you dont know jack ####.
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Oculus Spirit [79990]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23542
Joined: 8/21/06
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Tell em coot***
Feb 19, 2015, 9:03 PM
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Legend [19352]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 22266
Joined: 4/25/04
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Re: Tell em coot***
Feb 19, 2015, 9:07 PM
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Nice rebuttal.Typical response from a clown who realizes she was wrong.
I can prove I graduated from Clemson.
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Orange Blooded [2158]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 92
Joined: 9/20/99
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Bro, this ### clowns mama goes to fb games, lol***
Feb 19, 2015, 9:10 PM
[ in reply to Tell em coot*** ] |
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Legend [19352]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 22266
Joined: 4/25/04
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Re: Bro, this ### clowns mama goes to fb games, lol***
Feb 19, 2015, 9:14 PM
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Aww a new account I feel special
Edit: and was this supposed to be an insult? Guess what my family enjoys Clemson games.... Sorry your parent didnt love you as a child.
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Zealot [868]
TigerPulse: 50%
Posts: 1261
Joined: 1/29/10
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Re: Research, huh? Well let's see, in addition to being a season
Feb 19, 2015, 10:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: Research, huh? Well let's see, in addition to being a season ] |
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Full of busts because brownlee couldn't coach them up.
He needs to go back to a small D2 school where he won't be in over his head.
Our program has gone downhill since he got here. Those are cold hard facts that you can't refute.
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Legend [19352]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 22266
Joined: 4/25/04
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Re: Research, huh? Well let's see, in addition to being a season
Feb 19, 2015, 10:36 PM
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Lol He didn't even coach two of them #######
Also "Brownlee" what are you 12?
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110%er [7913]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13703
Joined: 1/8/02
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Tough comparison because OP took over from the dumpster fire
Feb 19, 2015, 4:32 PM
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that was Larry Shyatt while Brad took over from OP. We were beyond awful under Larry Shyatt
5-11 was our BEST conference record under Larry....winning 31% of the games was the best it got to be. He was 20-60 in the conference in 5 yrs....avg 4 wins a yr. Worse than that we actually had a losing record overall during that time period as well....and we were playing cupcakes to start off the year...winning only 45% of our games during the five years (70-84). We were awful.
Look at the five years before Brad got to Clemson it's night and day difference...
Best record in conference was 10-6....we were 42-38 during those years in conference...improvement of only winning 25% of conference games to now winning more than 50%. Overall during those five years we were 112-56...or winning 67% of our games up from 45%.
Needless to say OP came into far worse situation than Brad did. Brad made the NCAA the first year and even though it was OP's players he still coached them to a win. Saw improvement last year. I will be surprised though if we see the same yrs 5-7 results in Brad that we saw in OP. Three straight NCAA tournament bids and an ACC Finals appearance. Going to be tough to match.
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Devotee [330]
TigerPulse: 52%
Posts: 372
Joined: 7/28/14
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Re: Brownell vs Purnell
Feb 19, 2015, 4:33 PM
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Purnell was/is better.
If he stayed. I think at some point over the last 5 years we might would have made a sweet sixteen.
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Orange Blooded [3849]
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Re: GoLong (Purnell making a Sweet 16 had he stayed)
Feb 19, 2015, 7:10 PM
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Highly, Highly Doubtful! In his entire career as a HC, Purnell has NEVER won a single NCAA tourney game.
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Legend [19352]
TigerPulse: 92%
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Joined: 4/25/04
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110%er [6980]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6351
Joined: 9/21/04
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lol, that is laughable
Feb 19, 2015, 6:51 PM
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Purnell inherited the worst Clemson BBall team in 30 years, Brownell inherited an NCAA tourney team. You can be serious
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110%er [6980]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6351
Joined: 9/21/04
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can't***
Feb 19, 2015, 6:51 PM
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Legend [19352]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 22266
Joined: 4/25/04
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Re: lol, that is laughable
Feb 19, 2015, 8:55 PM
[ in reply to lol, that is laughable ] |
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hey this guy has shown his face after disappearing when the Tigers were winning.
People have disproved your little bull #### narrative already but keep pushign it.
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110%er [6980]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6351
Joined: 9/21/04
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are you some kind of stalker?
Feb 19, 2015, 10:06 PM
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I post during good times and bad. Just because I don't kiss BBs #### doesn't mean I'm some troll. Get a life
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Legend [19352]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 22266
Joined: 4/25/04
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Re: are you some kind of stalker?
Feb 19, 2015, 10:37 PM
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False
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