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All-TigerNet [12942]
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it is interesting to me that the "defenders" of the current
Mar 24, 2019, 10:02 PM
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state of our basketball program always point to Clemson's total history (going back 100 years), rather than looking at how successful 2 of the last 3 coaches were.
Why can't you look at the success of Barnes and OP, and say, "man, this can be done". Instead, you throw stats out of our "history", which is irrelevant, considering recent success.
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Oculus Spirit [76632]
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Re: it is interesting to me that the "defenders" of the current
Mar 24, 2019, 10:11 PM
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I hear ya, but why did Barnes leave? Same question of OP? Did they see the grass greener elsewhere?
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CU Guru [1712]
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Re: it is interesting to me that the "defenders" of the current
Mar 24, 2019, 10:22 PM
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I think OP left because he believed he's taken the program as far as he could, and if he didn't go on his own terms, he'd have to go anyway.
I think there were 2 reasons Barnes left: 1) Go to a program with more success, money, etc.; 2) He didn't feel the administration took basketball seriously.
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Oculus Spirit [76632]
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Re: it is interesting to me that the "defenders" of the current
Mar 24, 2019, 10:31 PM
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Thanks TS. I agree.
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Orange Blooded [3818]
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Re: it is interesting to me that the "defenders" of the current
Mar 24, 2019, 10:13 PM
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Their standard line is Purnell left the cupboard bare for Brownell. It was so bare Brownell made the tournament his first year. Yes, we struggled after that, but I believe if Purnell had still been the one recruiting instead of Brownell we would not have dropped off like we did.
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All-TigerNet [10898]
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Brownell isn't great, but I sure haven't missed Purnell!***
Mar 24, 2019, 10:34 PM
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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whether you liked OP or not.. we should appreciate him
Mar 24, 2019, 11:18 PM
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He went to 3 straight NCAAT's -- improved every year-- Put us on the map during that time-- and...
HE WON MORE ACC GAMES IN HIS FINAL 3 YEARS THAN ANYONE NOT NAMED DUKE OR UNC. I don't care how bad the ACC may have been, etc... it was still the ACC, and that is a heck of an accomplishment.
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All-In [43977]
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Were you pleased with his record in the NCAA Tournament?
Mar 24, 2019, 11:19 PM
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Because I wasn't, especially since we were the favored team in 2 of those 3 appearances.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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absolutely not... but that is a stupid argument, and one you
Mar 24, 2019, 11:29 PM
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can only make if BB had made more than 2 in NINE years. OP got there. Period. Amazing how you want to argue his record when he got there, but will defend the guy who CAN'T get there.
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CU Medallion [56580]
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Re: absolutely not... but that is a stupid argument, and one you
Mar 24, 2019, 11:53 PM
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Hey, his post isn’t about BB. He didn’t say BB anywhere in his post. Right, Judge??
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All-In [43977]
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Right. Glad to see you are learning!***
Mar 25, 2019, 11:30 AM
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Oculus Spirit [76632]
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CU Guru [1404]
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Re: whether you liked OP or not.. we should appreciate him
Mar 25, 2019, 1:31 PM
[ in reply to whether you liked OP or not.. we should appreciate him ] |
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May want to brush up on your memories
Yes made ncaas 3 yrs still never won a game
Played weakest nonconference schedule to pad to 20 wins bc acc play always took toll on his teams overall records
ACC conf records
Finished .500 or better 3 times out of 7
Had one year where his Seniors played above average and made noise in ACC
Horrible at developing players See James Mays never really developing an offense, Baicu never used ever, and others
Had a gimmick plan press all the time so lived and died by sword
Cupboard was slim bc if you tried to play basketball vs track style those guys could not shoot (see FT %)
OP made Ckemson a style of basketball, not a program.
Not sure who out there can ma m.j e a program out of Clemson. Hope they can find or have somebody to do it.
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Orange Blooded [2217]
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Standout [348]
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Re: it is interesting to me that the "defenders" of the current
Mar 24, 2019, 10:36 PM
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I never understand all the love for OP. I liked him and his style of play - at least until everybody got onto his press . But he never won a NCAA Tournament game at Clemson or anywhere else. He went to DePaul and never had a winning season. Barnes was successful but never seemed to be a good fit - at least away from the court.
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Orange Blooded [2519]
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We were relevant and contenders in the ACC
Mar 25, 2019, 9:31 AM
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and that was fun.
The '08 ACC tournament was fun.
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CU Medallion [67611]
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Re: it is interesting to me that the "defenders" of the current
Mar 24, 2019, 10:37 PM
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Brad has gotten us on the cusp of doing good. Close games have sunk him. Especially this year when he had mostly and experienced group
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All-In [43977]
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It is interesting that people who feel we are underachieving
Mar 24, 2019, 11:01 PM
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now are basing that on two prior coaches who bailed on Clemson after a few years of some success.
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Orange Blooded [3818]
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Re: It is interesting that people who feel we are underachieving
Mar 24, 2019, 11:09 PM
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Coach Brownell is loyal thus far, can’t dispute that. We should keep him forever.
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All-In [43977]
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I'm not saying that.
Mar 24, 2019, 11:12 PM
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I just don't understand why the two coaches who are supposedly role models for our basketball coach to strive for both bailed on Clemson. One criticized the local area when he left, and the other one didn't even have the courtesy of meeting with his team before leaving.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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absolutely irrelevant to the discussion
Mar 24, 2019, 11:15 PM
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the discussion is about winning, and being succesful... both of those guys did it with worse resources than what BB has.
No one is arguing to bring them back. The argument is they proved it was possible, but suddenly we think it can't happen in 9 years b/c of "resources".
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All-In [43977]
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Who said it cannot happen?
Mar 24, 2019, 11:17 PM
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It can.
But you're kidding yourself if you think it's likely for Clemson to have a successful coach and keep him here, given the currently poor support for basketball at Clemson.
I'm actually interested in building something sustainable with our basketball program.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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BB could not sustain what OP did..
Mar 24, 2019, 11:21 PM
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3 straight NCAAT appearances.. and a veteran team returning. BB comes in and makes the First Four. Then we go on to 1 NCAAT appearance over the next 8 years.
What is the "I want to sustain our program" you speak of, while defending the past 9 years?
Oh.. I know... OP left the cupboard bare... right?
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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Both Barnes and OP earned the fan support. Period.
Mar 24, 2019, 11:33 PM
[ in reply to Who said it cannot happen? ] |
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they had MUCH LESS commitment than BB does fro the admin, and still won. How do you explain that?
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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why they left is irrelevant... In their last 6 years here
Mar 24, 2019, 11:13 PM
[ in reply to It is interesting that people who feel we are underachieving ] |
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(3 for each), they were 6 for 6 in NCAAT appearances. OP was in the postseason 6 of 7 years, and Barnes all 4, with 3 being NCAA. Facts.
They proved it can be done here, and that it can be done recently... WITH THE SAME ISSUES YOU CLAIM BB IS FACING.
Why do you give him a pass for 9 years, but not recognize what they did with WORSE conditions. Why accept the last 9 when you have seen that success happen?
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All-In [43977]
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It's actually very relevant.
Mar 24, 2019, 11:15 PM
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Unless you're content always losing coaches who have a few years in a row of success here.
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Legend [19567]
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And that is where some of the things
Mar 24, 2019, 11:22 PM
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you speak of would come in to play. Pay commiserate with performance fir the head guy and staff, keeping up in facilities, amenities and support. That's exactly what happened with Dabo. Maybe if we ever get someone who can take us to the level of consistent NCAA births again, that will actually happen this time.
If/when we ever do get a new coach, they'll be walking in to a program with more of that in place than anyone who preceded him. Brad had a lot to do with that. But sometimes the guy to get you to that point, isnt the one to get you over the hump. In that way Brad is similar to Bowden
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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absolutely... Clemson football will be forever grateful to
Mar 24, 2019, 11:27 PM
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Tommy Bowden (we should be), and that's a fact. The same could be true for Brownell. He's a great guy, who has gotten some of the things we need.
But, just like Bowden, he could not win enough games. Period. End of discussion. The next guy will inherit a program poised for success. BB had a large part of that, but he just could not get the wins.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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how is that relevant? How is a successful coach leaving
Mar 24, 2019, 11:24 PM
[ in reply to It's actually very relevant. ] |
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relevant to BB's 9 years of mediocrity?
Why? If your argument for 2 NCAAT's in 9 years... and 4 years of ZERO postseason is "the good ones left", then you have other issues.
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All-In [43977]
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Discussing this with you is exhausting.
Mar 25, 2019, 11:36 AM
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I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish at this point by continuing to debate and question me. We've both stated how we feel about our basketball program, yet you still seem bent on trying to argue. I'm not sure if you are trying to be "right" or get me to change my mind or just argue for the sake of arguing.
You think we should change coaches and you have good reasons for doing so. I have never tried to get you to change your mind. We see this issue differently, and that's okay.
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Orange Blooded [4550]
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Re: Discussing this with you is exhausting.
Mar 25, 2019, 1:43 PM
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Did you not initiate this discussion with the original poster?
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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all I want to know is why he gives Brad a pass, and will not
Mar 25, 2019, 1:45 PM
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acknowledge that other coaches were succesful with LESS COMMITMENT. i don't want a "well they left us" answer.
By ignoring their success, while at the same time giving Brad a pass doesn't make sense to me.
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Starter [386]
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Its interesting to me that a few days ago you were making a case
Mar 25, 2019, 2:40 AM
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for us to be in the tournament, and now you're trolling the one person who's a defender of Brownell.
Argument du jour. Interesting indeed.
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Oculus Spirit [76632]
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Re: Its interesting to me that a few days ago you were making a case
Mar 25, 2019, 6:08 PM
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There are more than just Judge. He just has more patients.
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