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YOUR BALANCE
Americans and their rights
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Americans and their rights


Dec 14, 2012, 8:29 PM

We hear a lot about this and there is big time passion in this from both sides of the lisle but I have a question.
Should Americans be able to purchase shoulder fired missiles? To own a tank? Where does your rights end and why do they end? Does the government have the right to not sell you these items and if they do then why? We live in a very strange society and I feel it is the reason why most of these mass murders or murders period happen right here in the US. Very rarely if ever does this type thing happen outside of the US. Norway is the only one that comes to mind as to another country that recent mass murder has taken place. Think for a minute and contemplate why this is mainly a US phenomenon. Availability of weapons, violence portrayed on TV and Video games that our kids watch from an early age, very poor mental health care and fractured family units. Who knows...maybe its all interrelated but one thing is for certain...whatever it is its primarily an American issue. Its us...not the Muslims or any other group who are the most bloodthirsty in the world and we prove it over and over and over. So why is this?

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Re: Americans and their rights


Dec 14, 2012, 8:33 PM

Mass murder happens world wide. It's not just a USA thing. Just read were 30 kids were killed/slashed at a school in China by a guy wielding a knife.

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Re: Americans and their rights


Dec 14, 2012, 8:38 PM

Weapon availability has little to nothing to do with it. There are chainsaws, nailguns, etc. Lots of stuff that can be used to kill people. Probably not too hard to look up instructions on how to make a homemade pipe bomb on the web either. We have to find a way to identify and help these mentally ill people. It's the only way.

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Re: Americans and their rights


Dec 16, 2012, 12:20 PM [ in reply to Re: Americans and their rights ]

22 kids, 0 deaths.

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Wow, yeah completely an American problem...


Dec 14, 2012, 8:37 PM

http://www.globalpost.com/photo-galleries/planet-pic/5729160/school-shootings-around-the-world

Never happens anywhere else. I found out today that noone was ever murder until the invention of firearms. Can you believe that? It is crazy between the US of A and firearms, we invented killing people. How horrible.

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Let's not pretend that violence is a new problem or


Dec 14, 2012, 8:41 PM

strictly an American problem.

What happened today was tragic but overall humans are less violent towards each other now than probably any other period in history.

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Re: Let's not pretend that violence is a new problem or


Dec 14, 2012, 8:44 PM

Would you rather have a human with mental issues come at you with a knife from his mother's kitchen, or a gun from under her bed?

At least you'd have a fighting chance with no gun in the picture.

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Yes, thank God Timothy McVeigh didn't have a firearm


Dec 14, 2012, 8:47 PM

Can you imagine how bad it could have been in Oklahoma City if he had?

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Re: Yes, thank God Timothy McVeigh didn't have a firearm


Dec 15, 2012, 8:07 AM

Since yo bring up McVeigh, legislation was passed in the wake of that senseless tragedy to limit the availability of ammonium nitrate and whatever else goes into that type of bomb. I'd like to see you go out and purchase those ingredients in that quantity these days. There is a rigorous process to go through to be cleared to buy those things. Same thing with Sudafed. Good luck going out and stocking up that particular substance.

The point is, automatic weapons do make these kind of tragedies a whole lot worse.

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necessity is the mother of invention. Humanity will always


Dec 15, 2012, 9:47 AM

find ways to kill people and kill them in quantity.

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Re: Yes, thank God Timothy McVeigh didn't have a firearm


Dec 15, 2012, 4:21 PM [ in reply to Re: Yes, thank God Timothy McVeigh didn't have a firearm ]

He had no automatic weapons.

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Re: Yes, thank God Timothy McVeigh didn't have a firearm


Dec 16, 2012, 12:24 PM

You totally missed the point.

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he would be less likely to come at you with anything


Dec 14, 2012, 8:48 PM [ in reply to Re: Let's not pretend that violence is a new problem or ]

if there was hardly a place to go without someone with a gun who know how to use it.

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Re: he would be less likely to come at you with anything


Dec 15, 2012, 8:09 AM

That is a good point. The real question is would it be better for there to be MORE guns or FEWER guns available?

Should carrying a gun be mandatory for school administrators? That would be weird.

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The definition of awesome!


Re: he would be less likely to come at you with anything


Dec 15, 2012, 11:37 AM [ in reply to he would be less likely to come at you with anything ]

Notice these things usually happen in fairly liberal states and rarely here in the southeast where there is the greatest concentration of guns in this country.

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Re: he would be less likely to come at you with anything


Dec 16, 2012, 12:38 PM

Ehhh, they're pretty balanced in terms of school shootings, etc...

I'm not sure you want to use southeast/conservative states as a good area when it comes to gun violence though...the rate isn't fantastic. Of the Top 24 states for gun murders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state), you could say 17 of them are either purely or lean conservative.

So it's probably not great to get into the conservative vs liberal side of things here.

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Every situation is different...so you don't "know" that....


Dec 14, 2012, 8:49 PM [ in reply to Re: Let's not pretend that violence is a new problem or ]

...if a 300 pound individual breaks into your home wielding a knife, what would you rather have, a 12 gauge shotgun (or the firearm of your choice), or a knife to engage in knife to knife combat?????????????

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Your reply has nothing to do with what I posted.***


Dec 14, 2012, 9:47 PM [ in reply to Re: Let's not pretend that violence is a new problem or ]



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My response was to "gslmoore"....***


Dec 14, 2012, 10:43 PM



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Yeah! Lets take away all the guns!!!! Guns are bad!***


Dec 15, 2012, 8:45 AM [ in reply to Re: Let's not pretend that violence is a new problem or ]



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There's something in these hills.


You forget that historically governments are the ones


Dec 14, 2012, 8:44 PM

who commit mass atrocities. citizens who carry firearms keep the attention of the government. When the government has all the power the government begins to think it can issue and revoke rights. Fortunately the the best argument for the right to bear arms are all the things that didn't happen.

“Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains or slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take but as for me; give me liberty or give me death!”

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Re: You forget that historically governments are the ones


Dec 15, 2012, 8:13 AM

You are correct, of course, in invoking the motivation for the second ammendment. I wonder if the framers of the Constitution would see the current state of the US a little differently, however. The days of militias have passed in this country. In other words, I don't think we're at the same risk of search and seizure these days.

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The definition of awesome!


David, this administration just arrested a man for making a


Dec 15, 2012, 9:41 AM

movie. Don't think for one minute our government will not use their power for their own purposes.

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try not paying your property taxes***


Dec 15, 2012, 9:45 AM [ in reply to Re: You forget that historically governments are the ones ]



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Try not paying your mortgage. What's that got to do with


Dec 15, 2012, 10:02 AM

this discussion? Property taxes and mortgage payments are agreements you've made when you buy property. Renege and there are consequences.

I'm talking about politically-motivated search and seizure.

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The definition of awesome!


The guy they arrested for making the movie was as polit-


Dec 15, 2012, 10:18 AM

ically motivated as you can get. The Administration lied about Benghazi, 4 Americans were murdered because this Administration refused to come to their aid,and THEN when it blew up in the Administration's face, the Administration attempted to place the blame on a film by a film maker that was 6 months old. AND WORSE! The liberal press FAILED to bring the actions of this government to the forefront.They just looked the other way because it was expedient. Now Partner, that is scary. Where was the ACLU on that one?!!

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Re: The guy they arrested for making the movie was as polit-


Dec 15, 2012, 10:23 AM

I didn't know the filmmaker was arrested, so I obviously don't know the details. Assuming your take is accurate, that would be cause for alarm, for sure.

Are you suggesting he should have been armed and had a shoot-out with gov't agents?

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The definition of awesome!


You are a perfect example of what I am saying. You are


Dec 15, 2012, 10:58 AM

unaware of what happened. It should have been all over the news. But, the media chose to ignore it. And, the majority of Americans did not realize what was done. Hillary Clinton told the father of one of the murdered SEALS that they would arrest the man who made the movie that prompted the Muslims to attack the embassy in Benghazi. They then went and did just that. Because it was just one man, who nobody gave a rats ### about, it was swept under the rug.

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/10/25/father-of-seal-killed-in-benghazi-hillary-told-me-we-will-make-sure-that-the-person-who-made-that-film-is-arrested-and-prosecuted/

Now, as for an answer to your question as to what should he have done. I realize you were being somewhat facetious, but it is a legitimate question. This administration is attempting to take more than our guns away. They are trying to take control of everything we do. Water rights, food rights( yes, what we grow and what we eat),etc. If I as a citizen, sit back when they arrest you for growing and selling tomatoes at a yard sale( and in case you missed it, little girls have been fined for lemonade sales and 3 year old little boys have been fined for taking a leak in their own back yard), and you sit back when they arrest me for digging a well, then we are all going to be sheep. Slaughtered sheep. At some point, we , as men will be tested in this country.

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One point I was making is when the Constitution was


Dec 15, 2012, 11:33 AM

written, a well-armed militia would have been a good match for government forces. A few hundred militia with muskets, powder and plenty of lead balls could stand their ground against similarly-equipped government forces.

These days, there is no possibility any such militia could withstand the US military. It kind of renders the second ammendment obsolete. To argue that all types of guns should be available to every US citizen to prevent the government from taking away your rights is absurd. I don't know about you, but I'm not going to try to shoot it out with the government. That would be like arming myself with a pee shooter against a bazooka.

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Completely agree, David, and well said. Like some people


Dec 15, 2012, 11:38 AM

do with the Bible, they don't seem to grasp even the Constitution was written at a time with the people of that time and the situations surrounding them in mind, and with no comprehension of what the world may look like in 200 plus years....and then they bend it to make sense now, or stand stubborningly behind it.

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So where did the Founding Fathers miss the boat.?


Dec 15, 2012, 8:42 PM

Think about it; their main enemy was a tyrant named King George III, a man that one of them called a "thug with a gun". So, after Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro, and Sadaam, it appears on the topic of despots, they *nailed* it. 200 years later, tyrants are still with us. On the issue of guns, which the founders believed in part were excellent for self preservation, our world is once again beset with murderers, thieves and ner-do-wells of all stripes. True, they didn't get it all right, but they got the majority of it down pat...

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They didn't miss it at all...in the 18th century. Do you


Dec 16, 2012, 10:10 AM

think the world is just a little bit different nowadays? Come on. The only valid argument you can make is for personal security. Do you need a Bushmaster in order to have personal security? All an assault rifle does is allow you to go on a massacre like happened Friday.

I don't have an issue whatsoever with people having as many hunting guns/rifles and personal security type handguns as they want. I'm all for people having concealed weapons permits with the proper training.

Just seems to me the only result of making these kinds of weapons available is what happened Friday and has happened multiple times before and will continue to happen as long as nutcases can get their hands on them.

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David78: human nature, and the nature of tyranny...


Dec 16, 2012, 2:47 PM

...*hasn't* changed. And so the two primary purposes for the existence of the 2nd Amendment are still *intact*, hundreds of years after the fact. If you believe differently, you are fooling yourself....

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Re: David78: human nature, and the nature of tyranny...


Dec 16, 2012, 3:41 PM

I'm fooling myself?

Buddy, if you think owning an assault rifle means you could stop the US government from imposing its will, whatever that is, you're delusional.

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The definition of awesome!


You're not responding to what I said......


Dec 16, 2012, 5:10 PM

...the two primary reasons for the existence of the second amendment, deal with human nature; specifically that people still want to harm others and that tyrants still exist. Do you seriously deny either of those propositions? Secondly, if you read history, the German army was never completely able to subdue the masses in the occupied countries. Ever hear of the French Underground? The Germans also had a helluva time with the local populace during the invasion of Russia. Enough armed citizens could make it very *hot* for the US military. But, if you're okay with the government taking your weapons and maybe turning the military against it's own citizens, why not go ahead and surrender and just do what the government says? Take your weaponry and just turn 'em in....

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Re: One point I was making is when the Constitution was


Dec 15, 2012, 12:07 PM [ in reply to One point I was making is when the Constitution was ]

There were people like you back in 1776 that did not like what the British monarchy was doing but just didn't want to cause trouble. Thankfully there were plenty of men willing to make the sacrifice and go up against the mighty and undefeatable British empire and their 80 gun ships and well trained lines. I hope it never comes to violence but I will tell you right now if it reached that point I would not hesitate to give my life fighting tyranny even if it was from within.

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Re: One point I was making is when the Constitution was


Dec 15, 2012, 2:25 PM

Really? "People like [me]?" Do tell, who are people like me?

smh

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The definition of awesome!


Re: One point I was making is when the Constitution was


Dec 15, 2012, 5:33 PM

I meant no disrespect by that. Read a little deeper. You said "These days, there is no possibility any such militia could withstand the US military. It kind of renders the second ammendment obsolete. To argue that all types of guns should be available to every US citizen to prevent the government from taking away your rights is absurd. I don't know about you, but I'm not going to try to shoot it out with the government. That would be like arming myself with a pee shooter against a bazooka." I said "There were people like you back in 1776 that did not like what the British monarchy was doing but just didn't want to cause trouble. Thankfully there were plenty of men willing to make the sacrifice and go up against the mighty and undefeatable British empire and their 80 gun ships and well trained lines."
Clearly not meant to be disrespectful or ill-intentioned just pointing out that without threat of reprisal any government even our own can go too far in robbing our liberty

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Re: One point I was making is when the Constitution was


Dec 16, 2012, 10:50 AM

Vastly different time and circumstance. War wasn't waged from the air. For the most part, it was eye-to-eye and mano-a-mano. Yes, the revolutionaries faced very difficult odds, but they improvised a strategy based on the indians' tactics. Hard to compare those times to ours.

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The definition of awesome!


Yet in order to fight tyranny


Dec 16, 2012, 1:23 PM

the same old tools are needed......

grit and guns

The standard argument of the anti gun crowd is.....it was different times when the constitution was written....heck times now are different than yesterday.

The bill of rights and the intents are pretty clear. And it is transparent that government has been over stepping its bounds for decades.

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We do Chicken right...it's not just for frying anymore!


Re: Try not paying your mortgage. What's that got to do with


Dec 15, 2012, 10:22 AM [ in reply to Try not paying your mortgage. What's that got to do with ]

Do a google search and see if that does not happen all the time in this country. Watch the video of police in Miami shooting an unarmed man over 100 times and then taking by gunpoint the cell phone of a man that recorded it and smashing the cell phone on the pavement.

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Re: Try not paying your mortgage. What's that got to do with


Dec 15, 2012, 10:25 AM

So, if the guy had been packing, he'd still have his cell phone?

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The definition of awesome!


Re: Try not paying your mortgage. What's that got to do with


Dec 15, 2012, 11:01 AM

That's not the point the point is you said we do not have to worry about illegal search and seizure. Had he been packing he would be dead but there is a breaking point and if these kind of things keep happening more and more citizens will have to make a stand. During the civil rights movement Black Panthers often showed up to events armed to the teeth. Those demonstrations were usually more peaceful than others in which police mercilessly beat many protestors.

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Re: Try not paying your mortgage. What's that got to do with


Dec 15, 2012, 11:12 AM

Yes, it's clear that in light of what happened yesterday, you should totally still have the right to go to Wal-Mart and buy a killing machine. I mean, the 2nd Amendment defends that right.

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Re: Try not paying your mortgage. What's that got to do with


Dec 15, 2012, 11:28 AM

I am guessing since you are against gun ownership you are also for prohibition. Alcohol kills 2.5 million people per year worldwide. Alocohol related automobile accidents kill 50,000+ people every year in the US alone. That is 5 times as many people as are murdered with firearms. But I am sure you do not have a problem with someone going to the local convenience store and buying a six pack of "death tonic"

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I would wager our Great Great Grandfathers had these same


Dec 15, 2012, 11:14 AM [ in reply to Re: Try not paying your mortgage. What's that got to do with ]

discussions 150 years ago.Our rights are being trampled at an alarming rate. Uninformed citizens just laugh it off.

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I'm sure we can agree that we should defend our rights.


Dec 15, 2012, 11:37 AM

I don't see how my being able to buy an assault rifle or automatic pistol allows me to do that. Civil rights struggles belong in the federal courts, not in mob violence or organized militias.

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The definition of awesome!


I guess you missed it as well where a Black Panther and his


Dec 15, 2012, 11:44 AM

buddy intimidated voters at a precinct. They were tried and convicted and the judge was about to pass sentence on them when he was ordered by Eric Holder to drop all charges. So, at the next election at that precinct, as a white voter, what do I do. Call the mayor and ask him to escort me. Or do I stay home and not vote. We are heading to a point where the courts are not going to be a remedy.

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No, Spud, I am not aware of Eric Holder ordering the


Dec 15, 2012, 11:53 AM

charges dropped in said case. Assuming you are correct, I would agree that needs to be addressed. As for your question, I would ask you one. Do you suggest voters now arm themselves so they can shoot it out at the precinct should there be an armed intimidator? This isn't the wild west any more. We could argue hypotheticals all we want. In reality, these things need to be resolved in ways that do not include armed mobs shooting it out.

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The definition of awesome!


Like everything else, David, there are two sides to this


Dec 15, 2012, 11:59 AM

case Spud speaks about. Spud clearly has taken the Republican narrative view of what went down and why charges were dropped and yada yada yada. Republicans, for all their "liberal, limp wristed" sterotypes of Democrats, have to be the most overreactive, sensitive, you hurt my bum bum people in this country.

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Re: Like everything else, David, there are two sides to this


Dec 15, 2012, 12:11 PM

How about enlighten us with your MSNBC narrative as to why charges were dropped. Seemed like a pretty clear case of voter intimidation to any un-biased viewer.

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And looking over your file, Gotigers, you seem to have the


Dec 15, 2012, 12:15 PM

Fox narrative down pretty stealthlike. Anyone that can pretty much gloss over Bush's 8 years being problematic only as the result of Clinton and 9/11 is definitley spending alot of time watching the red and blue freedom warriors known as Fox.

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Re: And looking over your file, Gotigers, you seem to have the


Dec 15, 2012, 5:43 PM

I rarely watch Fox news or any other cable news network for that matter they all have an agenda and I don't like having what I should believe being dictated to me. I simply point out that everything that caused this current situation was not "Bush's fault". Dems had as much a hand in it as Repubs. I am no fan of Bush and hold him and Obama in about the same regard as far as job effectiveness. Both were elected by the extremists of their respective parties. I am conservative but no Republican by any stretch of the imagination. Nice try, you must watch a lot of Fox News seeing you know everything they say. No wonder they have the highest ratings.

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Re: And looking over your file, Gotigers, you seem to have the


Dec 15, 2012, 5:49 PM [ in reply to And looking over your file, Gotigers, you seem to have the ]

I would also still like to know why the charges were dropped since you seem to know. I honestly have no idea why they were but like I said there was video evidence and seemed like a pretty clear case for any prosecutor.

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The case was tried in a court of law. The defendants did not


Dec 15, 2012, 12:12 PM [ in reply to Like everything else, David, there are two sides to this ]

even show up for trial. They WERE convicted. That is not a Republican slant. That is a fact. The judge was ordered by the Attorney General to dismiss the case, after it had been heard and a verdict reached.

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And this one case, this one incident 4 years ago, that did


Dec 15, 2012, 12:17 PM

not repeat itself this year, no matter how much Fox News tried to show on constant repeat reel the one black guy peacefully hanging outside a poll center, causes you to believe white people may not able to vote soon because they are scared?

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So, you lost that argument, and now your are taking the DNC


Dec 15, 2012, 12:36 PM

chairwoman's tact when caught in a lie by Anderson Cooper no less. Her response was, " It doesn't matter".

First, you said I was taking a Republican slant. Now, you are saying it did not amount to much. Guess what. They guy was back at the polling spot this year. And one can logically assume, that sense nothing was done last time, then there was no sense in making a deal about it this time. Which all goes back to my original point. If all of us are OK with the government abusing OTHERS rights as long as they don't step on our own toes, then we will lose them all over time.

How about this one. If you are an animal lover. DO you think corporations should be held accountable for practices that lead to the death of migratory birds?

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I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm more amused at the


Dec 15, 2012, 12:50 PM

overreaction factor you had to the whole Black Panther incident, and there was a big deal made about the guy being at the polling place. That was my point. Fox News was running it on loop every 5 seconds. They TRIED mightily to make it a big deal and the only people that fell for it are people that fall into the line of thought you were putting out there of,"Oh hail! Where are white people gunna vote one day?" It is silly, and since you seem like a man of interest in the sanctity of our voter rights, I'm all ears on what you thought about the Republican attempts in this past election to suppress voters? Corporations should run their businesses with the idea in mind to leave as little as possible damage or footprints on nature and society.

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Certifying that one has the right to vote is NOT voter


Dec 16, 2012, 2:29 PM

suppression. If we had a couple of million white South Africans coming into the country illegally every year, and they were voting, would you want them to be certified?

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Do you know about the NDAA?


Dec 15, 2012, 2:16 PM [ in reply to Re: You forget that historically governments are the ones ]

- Our govt can arrest American citizens and hold them without trial indefinitely.

- Our govt claims the right to assassinate any American citizen it claims is a threat.

- drones are already flying over our country. How long before they are armed?

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Re: Do you know about the NDAA?


Dec 15, 2012, 3:36 PM

So, you'll have to make the connection to the 2nd Amendment for me. How does my "right" to buy an assault rifle preserve my independence against a government bent on taking it from me? Will my assault rifle give me a chance to prevail over the US military?

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The definition of awesome!


Are you people real?


Dec 15, 2012, 3:41 PM

DontH8me®



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Just saying, if a few of those teachers were armed, there
Posted: Dec 15, 2012 9:38 AM
Reply

would have been a lot less loss of life.

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Haha yeah


Dec 15, 2012, 3:43 PM [ in reply to Re: Do you know about the NDAA? ]

Gotta git yer guns so when the dadgum Federalist Army comes in yer ready to show'em who's boss.

You people are a bunch of retards.

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We might be retarded, but we'll all be alive....


Dec 16, 2012, 2:32 PM

..meanwhile, when you are "set upon" by the less desirable elements of our society, you will be unarmed and defenseless..

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Re: You forget that historically governments are the ones


Dec 15, 2012, 10:32 AM [ in reply to You forget that historically governments are the ones ]

Yep during the days of the Native American genocides Native Americans were not allowed to own guns. I imagine had every one of them owned repeating rifles, the assault rifle of the day, the history books might have had a different outcome.

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Go read " Guns of the South", a fictional novel about the


Dec 15, 2012, 11:17 AM

Civil War when South African Boers went back in time and gave Robert E. Lee a few thousand AK-47's.....

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Re: Americans and their rights


Dec 14, 2012, 8:45 PM

It's not only a US problem. There are mass murders in every country, you just on't hear about it near as much.

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You cover a lot of ground in your post....


Dec 14, 2012, 8:46 PM

...and it would be impossible to answer all of it without writing a book. But, I would like a go at one thing you mentioned, "...where do your rights end and why do they end..?". You seem to be espousing a theory about freedom which supposes that my "rights" are only valid and contingent upon when another citizen happens to abuse them; and then they can be taken away. If that's the case, I would argue our rights are not worth the paper they're written on.

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What does our country have in common with other countries


Dec 14, 2012, 8:51 PM

that lead the world in murder crimes or violent crimes? There are some countries with very little crime. Mexico, Brazil and the US are some of the highest violent crime rate centers. What is the difference in the countries with little violent crime and those in which there is not. There are common factors and thats where the answer is.

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Don't keep us waiting..what's are those common factors......


Dec 14, 2012, 8:53 PM

...????

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Ignorant rambling


Dec 14, 2012, 8:46 PM

There are tragedies across the world that involve guns, step outside your little box for a while and take a peek. Sorry you dont get the news from Africa or the Middle East or anywhere else on the planet.

And to lump Americans in with some wack jobs is beyond insulting, and I think you need to do alot more research into who is doing this and quit trying to take issues and mold them into your point of view. Maj. Nadal Hasan was just as blood thirsty...yet you dont hear anything about Fort Hood, guy is still held up in appeal on whether he should have to shave or not for his trial...that is what is wrong with this country, a bunch of pansy PC dopes who couldnt fight their way out of a paper bag for fear they might upset some uber liberal paper rights group.

Guns have been around long before Columbine, even assault rifles, so the question is what has changed since then?

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Check UK gun laws. Need something similar


Dec 14, 2012, 10:53 PM

Nm

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Check UK homicide rates.***


Dec 15, 2012, 8:47 AM



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There's something in these hills.


You're kind of all over the place


Dec 14, 2012, 8:49 PM

...but you made a few good points.

To answer your question: the main reason that we're seeing crazy-behavior more often in this country is simple. Lots and lots of American's have turned their backs on God (Christian Judea God...just to be clear).

What's really changed in this country over the last 50-150 years you ask? People have no moral compass anymore.

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Morals have gone out the window no doubt.....


Dec 14, 2012, 8:55 PM

...and how people raise their children along with it.....

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Re: You're kind of all over the place


Dec 14, 2012, 8:58 PM [ in reply to You're kind of all over the place ]

Don't forget the 911 hi-jackers didn't use guns....they used box-cutters. Twisted people are sometimes mass-murders. It would probably be dumb to ban box-cutters. It surely would not solve the problem, or keep anybody safe.

"Americans and their rights" don't kill innocent people. Twisted and sick people do.

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I respect your opinion, but


Dec 14, 2012, 9:35 PM [ in reply to You're kind of all over the place ]

I disagree with your implication that morality and Christianity are inseparable, that you can't have one without the other. You are touching on a subject near and dear to my heart,i.e., separation of church and state. I would argue that your definition of morality/Christianity is what has practically destroyed the Republican Party.

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If I understand you correctly...you are making the....


Dec 14, 2012, 10:52 PM

..argument that morals can exist separate from Christianity (or any religion) or even without religion. Is that correct? If so, I would agree, and I think most educated theists would also. The "tiebreaker" is whether or not those morals have any "objective" value. At any rate, good discussion!

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Excellent point well made.


Dec 15, 2012, 8:17 AM [ in reply to I respect your opinion, but ]

Wish I could give you more than just one TU.

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The definition of awesome!


Re: Americans and their rights


Dec 14, 2012, 9:00 PM

You wrong about this only being a US poblem. Mass Murder rates are actually about the same in Eroupe as they are here.
If you ban guns, do you think the Luneys/bad guys are going to say well since guns are no longer legal I guess I will turn my guns in, and not kill people? Responsible citzens with guns equals a safer America.

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Correct: disaming Americans doesn't somehow....


Dec 14, 2012, 9:02 PM

..equate to a parallel decrease in the number of screwed up people in this country...

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Re: Americans and their rights


Dec 14, 2012, 9:02 PM

"Very rarely if ever does this type thing happen outside of the US."

Not true. Perhaps you very rarely hear about it since you reside safely safely insulated from it here in the US, but I have a new flash: there are screwed up people everywhere. As other posters have indicated, despicable crimes are committed on a daily basis by both governments and citizens throughout the world. Go ask the victim of an honor killing or 'acid attack' if senseless violence is an 'American' problem. Go ask victims of racial/ethnic genocide in Rwanda or Kosovo what they think.

I have a 7 year old daughter who I hugged as soon as I got in the door from work this evening. I'll send her to school tomorrow knowing that no matter what, she is better off than she ever would be in any of the other countries on this planet that you care to name.

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tanks and shoulder-fired weapons are specifically designed


Dec 14, 2012, 10:03 PM

to kill large numbers of combatants on a battlefield. so no, you don't have a right to own those, anymore than your first amendment rights give you the right to shout fire in a crowded theater, or incite a crowd to commit a lynching. As for why we can't live in a society where people who purchase handguns and rifles are compelled to demonstrate that they are sane and that they have basic proficiency with weapons safety, to the point of being licensed to carry whatever firearem they wish, well that I don't know. But I bet the NRA has 50,000 reasons that they can supply to various congressmen from time to time, via brown paper bag, to make sure that the issue is too confusing for them to solve either.

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The Founding Fathers had a fairly straightforward.....


Dec 14, 2012, 11:17 PM

..notion of how this issue is/was to be solved. I believe it was Washington who said the Constitution was "...made for a moral people...". And Jefferson, "..the best arbiter of a person's life..is one's self...". They were making the most basic of all arguments about liberty, that only those who could find a way to govern themselves could ultimately utilize the fruits of liberty. In this country today, we have far to many people who simply cannot govern themselves. Ultimately, this will destroy the republic....

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its odd.coke,heroin,crack and all other sorts of drugs are..


Dec 14, 2012, 10:04 PM

illegal.yet many people get their hands on them.in other words even if guns were illegal people who do not reguard the law will still find a way to get them.also watch this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nf1OgV449g

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Re: Americans and their rights


Dec 14, 2012, 10:40 PM

I don't meen to be difficult but your an idiot!! Muslims will strap bombs to kids and mrch them in a wedding and level a city block.The only problem we face is a morally bankrupt nation. Guns ae not the problem!! People are and always have been. Here is a thought... What if the teachers are armed and made to take conceal carry classes. After all our kids safety should demand it. I am sickened and saddened that this happened. But I also know that God seen what happened today and will not go unanswered.HE will deal with the weiniehead A$$ that caused this greif and pain. My prayers are with the familiy and kids involved but you can not give any goverment the right to disarm a nation and expect us to trust them.

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We are far more violent than Muslims.


Dec 15, 2012, 3:51 AM

Its not even close. You can take all the suicide bombings in one year or even all violent crimes in those arab countries combined in one year and it wont top 1 year in the US. Its our nature. You want to cut my head off right now for just saying that dont you?

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Re: We are far more violent than Muslims.


Dec 15, 2012, 10:44 AM

Haha I would like to see some statistics to back this up. Actually I like to ask 100,000 people would they rather walk down the street in an American city or Baghdad or Syria or Afghanistan. I bet 99.9% would go with America. Violent crime is almost never reported in those countries and when it is it rarely makes the evening news but even still I would bet per capita the violent crime rates are much higher in any middle eastern country than the U.S.

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And the good, God fearing, gun toting Americans now take


Dec 15, 2012, 11:17 AM

their aim on the Muslim faith in the aftermath of this tragedy....that makes perfect God fearing, gun toting sense.

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Re: And the good, God fearing, gun toting Americans now take


Dec 15, 2012, 11:35 AM

You really have nothing to add to this discussion do you? You just keep spitting garbage while most every body else is having a fairly civil discussion.

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I have added a civil opinion. You just don't care for it,


Dec 15, 2012, 11:56 AM

therefore you deem it spitting garbage.

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Re: I have added a civil opinion. You just don't care for it,


Dec 15, 2012, 12:22 PM

No making condescending remarks about people of faith is not civil. We get it you hate "God fearing" people. People like you who are so full of hate have no place in polite discussion. Nevermind that "God fearing" people around the world do more for the hungry and poor around the world than any government has ever done. Are some bastions of hypocrisy? Absolutely. Much like people of race you cannot judge a whole group on the actions of a few idiots.

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I don't hate God fearing people. I do find their reasoning a


Dec 15, 2012, 12:32 PM

bit odd at times, like the fact my skepticism sometimes of some "God fearers" all of the sudden makes me a person full of hate. That sort of conclusion jumping baffles me, that is for sure. I do agree with you churches do alot for the poor and needy in this world, and thank God they do, because when the govn't is helping those same people, those people are called lazy bums that think they are owed everything. When the church is helping them, they are called the less fortunate.

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Then we're even, because you conclusions....


Dec 15, 2012, 8:24 PM

..."baffle" me as well, especially about the "poor and needy". There is a book called "the Tragedy of American Compassion" and it deals in part with the attitudes of churches toward the poor and that of the government. Way, way back, the churches applied a spiritual "test" to each case. For example, if a person was able bodied, but refused to work, they were turned away, as the person's problem was identified as spiritual, and beyond help. Contrast that with the government idea: they're all *needy*, even if the majority of that need is self inflicted. I think I'll stick with the churches to administer help to the needy...

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And I'll stick to not reading books built around the


Dec 15, 2012, 10:36 PM

conservative belief of demonizing the poor. You are more than welcome to enjoy that type of literature, though.

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Have you read the book? How does it "demonize" the....


Dec 15, 2012, 10:45 PM

..poor? I know a fair amount of "poor and needy" people especially living here in Low Country South Carolina. I can tell you through personal experience and direct observation that *most* of them are in that situation because of the *choices* they made. It's not me that's demonizing the poor, it's you that's coddling them...

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I haven't read it. I Googled information about it, and


Dec 15, 2012, 11:38 PM

the results seem to indicate it is the Conservative Bible of how to view the current state of welfare in this country and how we got to where we are at now. Some poor people deserve our help but alot, through their own choices, have made themselves poor. I get it, and I don't need to read about it to figure it out. It sounds like a fairly common sense book.

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Fair enough....***


Dec 15, 2012, 11:41 PM



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How is my reasoning backwards?


Dec 15, 2012, 11:55 PM

Narcotics are illegal... Guns are not. Why not? Unless you're using a fun for game and hunting, YOU DON'T NEED A ####### GUN. The sole purpose of a gun- if not for game- is to shoot and kill people. It's the only reason for owning a gun.

You people are sick, twisted, and dumber than a sack of bricks.

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Re: How is my reasoning backwards?


Dec 16, 2012, 9:38 AM

At least someone gets it:


This was a mentally ill kid...
Posted: Dec 15, 2012 9:02 AM
Reply

who got his hands on a semi automatic assault rifle and sprayed 100+ bullets in a public school. Where do your right to own a semiautomatic assault rifle end and my right to send my kids to school to get an education and not be at risk of your mentally ill kid getting his hands on your semiautomatic assault rifle and shooting my kid begin? We did have a ban on these types of weapons and congress let it expire. Time for our elected officials to grow a set (once again) and stand up to these gun lobbyists

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Lets just say guns never existed


Dec 16, 2012, 11:42 AM [ in reply to How is my reasoning backwards? ]

Bad people WILL still exist. I'm old (65) and in a wheelchair. What would be the deterrent to keep some of those bad people from just coming to my house and killing or robbing me. Right now, it's the well know fact that I have guns and know how to use them. Nothing can equalize our physical abilities but a gun can sure equalize us with folks would do us harm.

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Bookmaker03: you are 100% correct. When dealing with....


Dec 16, 2012, 2:11 PM

..people like Uproar84, you have to consider who they "are". Dependent, incapable of independent thought, wants the government to take care of them, fears people who are the opposite of that, can't conceive of any situation that is beyond their own immediate experience. Theres's an old saying "...mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself..."...

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It's simple: you simply aren't smart enough to know....


Dec 16, 2012, 2:05 PM [ in reply to How is my reasoning backwards? ]

...or to decide if someone else "needs" a gun. For example, let says you are sitting smug in your inner city apartment in NYC, snoozing away. Hundreds of miles away, looting has broken out due to civil strife. Can you honestly sit there and then make the remark that someone might not need a weapon for self defense? If you can, that tells me a few things about you; first, you are some kind of control freak. Second, you simply don't have the good sense to recognize that not neither your intellect, nor your authority, allows you to make such a decision. That it would even *cross your mind* (if you had one), is beyond belief. You need to worry about your own life, and why you turned out to be an idiot, and leave self defense decisions to the those who wish to make that decision for themselves.

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also considering we are the third most populated..


Dec 14, 2012, 10:57 PM

country in the world per wiki behind china and india of course we will have more crime.more people = more crime.

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When I read misinformed garbage


Dec 14, 2012, 11:00 PM

like this I weep for this country because people really believe it.
Unreal.

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'I Cannot Sanction Your Buffoonery'


Yes, you should be able to own whatever you can afford***


Dec 14, 2012, 11:02 PM



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It has nothing to do with availability of guns


Dec 14, 2012, 11:28 PM

The media immortalizes these motherf'ers. I have never been a fan of Marilyn Manson, but he said it best.


A lot of people forget or never realize that I started my band as a criticism of these very issues of despair and hypocrisy. The name Marilyn Manson has never celebrated the sad fact that America puts killers on the cover of Time magazine, giving them as much notoriety as our favorite movie stars. From Jesse James to Charles Manson, the media, since their inception, have turned criminals into folk heroes. They just created two new ones when they plastered those dipshits Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris' pictures on the front of every newspaper. Don't be surprised if every kid who gets pushed around has two new idols.

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Laws are not for, responsible, moral, intelligent people


Dec 15, 2012, 3:32 AM

Laws are used to prosecute criminals. For whatever reason, here in the US, we need hundreds of thousands of laws because if there is no law against something, its legal. This is BS. All we really need are 2 laws.

1. Do no harm anyones person.
2. Do no harm to property.

Whenever there is a demand for anything, legal or not, money will facilitate the satisfaction of demand. Taking guns away from law abiding citizens only emboldens the criminal. A well informed, armed, public was meant to be a safeguard against corrupt government.

I've been playing violent video games, hunting and fishing my entire life and never even thought of doing anything like this. If anything video games give a healthy outlet for anger.

This is a mental health issue, not a gun issue.

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Remember when the government murdered the children at Ruby Ridge or Waco?


Dec 15, 2012, 7:58 AM

As far as facing a killer with a knife or gun.....I welcome either, cause I'm packing.

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No. America and her psychotropic drugs.


Dec 15, 2012, 8:33 AM

Half the country's on drugs. And a 100% of the mass shooters have taken them.

Guns have always been available to Americans.

When did these horrors start? When pharmaceutical companies started pumpin' kids with mind altering 'medication.'

The truth hurts. Sometimes it even kills. Sometimes it kills a lot.

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Re: Americans and their rights


Dec 15, 2012, 8:58 AM

Jeez man, Have you not heard of Gaza, Israel, Lebanon, Congo, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Ireland, Mexico, Venezuela, Columbia, Serbia, Egypt, Nigeria and Afghanistan!!

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This was a mentally ill kid...


Dec 15, 2012, 9:02 AM

who got his hands on a semi automatic assault rifle and sprayed 100+ bullets in a public school. Where do your right to own a semiautomatic assault rifle end and my right to send my kids to school to get an education and not be at risk of your mentally ill kid getting his hands on your semiautomatic assault rifle and shooting my kid begin? We did have a ban on these types of weapons and congress let it expire. Time for our elected officials to grow a set (once again) and stand up to these gun lobbyists

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Violent video games


Dec 15, 2012, 9:36 AM

I can't help but feel these games, often. played by children at a very young age are part of the problem.

The bigger problem is the loss of a sense of community. People move all over the place, they don't go to church, they have no sense of belonging.

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Re: Violent video games


Dec 15, 2012, 12:43 PM

the gamed are rated...ma and pa buy them for the kids

Have to show I'd to buy M rated game

Broken homes and bad parenting

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Kids download them from the Internet. Whatever roadblock


Dec 15, 2012, 7:46 PM

You try to put up, they find away around it. All their friends have them, so when they go over to their friends house, they play them. I have two boys and have fought the battle. Very difficult to fight in this society.

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Just saying, if a few of those teachers were armed, there


Dec 15, 2012, 9:38 AM

would have been a lot less loss of life.

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It's not my thing, but you are an IDIOT.


Dec 15, 2012, 9:57 AM

There, I said it.

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9-11...no guns involved...


Dec 15, 2012, 10:11 AM

Boom! Largest mass murder event in the USA. We need to outlaw boxcutters!

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Re: 9-11...no guns involved...


Dec 15, 2012, 10:14 AM

We have as far as air travel is concerned.

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The definition of awesome!


Strange society for sure...extremely violent and bloody TV


Dec 15, 2012, 10:18 AM

shows in prime time, but everyone freaks out when Janet Jackson's boob pops out.

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And it was a 40 year old tittay...40 years old!


Dec 15, 2012, 11:24 AM

(Chris Rock)

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Re: Americans and their rights


Dec 15, 2012, 10:36 AM

In the last year there have been a half dozen or more school attacks in China, where gun ownership is illegal, involving knives, hammers, and meat cleavers that have left at least 21 dead and over 90 injured. This is not an American problem this is a human problem and outlawing guns will not solve it.

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Re: Americans and their rights


Dec 15, 2012, 10:38 AM

i guess you missed the news about the 22 Chinese children who were injured/killed by a knife wielding man that happened THIS WEEK. Unfortunately, evil is world wide.

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Mike Huckabee has it all figured out and of course we all


Dec 15, 2012, 10:41 AM

know the answer for why this happening. No God in schools. Yep, that simple. God not being in schools like it used to be is why these precious children and adults are now dead. The same God people have been killing each other over for thousands of years is also the reason people are killed when God isn't around or front and center in people's lives. There, no more talk about gun control, gun violence, or psychotropic drugs. Brother Mike has spoken.

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well a little God would not hurt..


Dec 15, 2012, 10:43 AM

dont remember this kind of stuff when we allowed a little God in the schools...An armed guard would not hurt either

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Orange Googlers Unite

Save Tigernet--Boot the coots(you know who I mean).


Nope. Violence didn't exist back then. Good point.***


Dec 15, 2012, 10:49 AM



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Re: Mike Huckabee has it all figured out and of course we all


Dec 15, 2012, 10:44 AM [ in reply to Mike Huckabee has it all figured out and of course we all ]

he is sure right on this one....

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I would have expected God to show up and stop this. It is


Dec 15, 2012, 10:51 AM

odd God allows so much carnage for a entity with so much power and might. If He has the power to take a person when needed, you would think He has the power to stop people's lives from being taken.

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This^^^^^


Dec 15, 2012, 11:22 AM

And he who controls the guns controls society. Why do you think .... Never mind. The gun control people will never understand

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We do Chicken right...it's not just for frying anymore!


This kind of thing will never end...


Dec 15, 2012, 12:40 PM

and has always happened. Some countries may not have a similar incident, but we're not stoning people to death or slitting their throats for crimes over here. Instead, lawyers are hired to "do their job" and defend those that are guilty in an attempt to lessen their sentence by putting labels on people like 'mentally unstable' or there is 'insufficient evidence' blah blah blah... Our justice system is broke...just look at Casey Anthony. They've found new evidence on her computer of looking up how to kill her child and now she can't be tried twice....wow, the system works great...

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Almost all of these people plan to kill themselves, so what


Dec 16, 2012, 2:53 PM

Difference so it make that we don't stone or slit throats?

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Re: Americans and their rights


Dec 15, 2012, 12:40 PM

the machete is the primary weapon of death and murder in Africa

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Re: Americans and their rights


Dec 15, 2012, 2:44 PM

The car is the primary killing machine in the US. Are we going to call for the banning of cars every time a drunk gets behind the wheel and kills someone. Where do you draw the line?

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Re: Americans and their rights


Dec 15, 2012, 4:35 PM

I'm sitting in the woods right now with my gun. Anybody want to come and get it lol good luck with that

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Re: Haha yeah


Dec 15, 2012, 4:36 PM

You a preppy boy

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Re: Americans and their rights


Dec 15, 2012, 5:35 PM

Schools do have gun control. It's not legal for anyone to have a gun inside a school. How did that work out?

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LOL!


Dec 15, 2012, 6:10 PM

Folks who think along the lines of the OP just will never get what you just said. They don't understand that the reason why someone is a criminal is because they don't obey the laws. At the same time it is these same people who refuse to throw the book at the law breakers. All logic and rational thinking goes out the window. Replaced by knee-jerk responses and emotional decision making.

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Let me ask the gun lovers something...


Dec 15, 2012, 8:51 PM

Based on your rationale, it would make sense to legalize every narcotic, but arrest those that sold narcotics to kids... Right? Legalize all the tools, but criminalize their use. Makes a ton of sense.

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you read a lot more into that post...


Dec 15, 2012, 8:56 PM

than I did. I did not see where he said that at all

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Re: Let me ask the gun lovers something...


Dec 15, 2012, 8:57 PM [ in reply to Let me ask the gun lovers something... ]

You're try to make a simplistic solution to a complicated situation.

Believe it or not - some guns are illegal for unlicensed private citizens.

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null


You've got it backwards.....


Dec 15, 2012, 10:46 PM [ in reply to Let me ask the gun lovers something... ]

You can make all narcotics illegal and there will still be someone selling it to kids. You can make all guns outlawed but the criminals and wackos will still get them.

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"My body stunk but I kept my funk"- 'Every Picture Tells A Story, Don't It'


Outside of guns that are uses for hunting


Dec 15, 2012, 11:01 PM

guns are for killing other people. So who needs em? Oh yeah, dumb rednecks... Cuz it they right!

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You totally missed the point....


Dec 16, 2012, 1:43 PM

Outlaw them all and the bad guys would still get them. And just because I have an opposing point of view, you label me a dumb redneck. Sheesh. The always tolerant left hypocrisy. BTW, I don't even own a gun.

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"My body stunk but I kept my funk"- 'Every Picture Tells A Story, Don't It'


How in the he77 is this football related???


Dec 15, 2012, 6:35 PM

Morons everywhere!!!

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You people are so dumb and stupid


Dec 15, 2012, 7:14 PM

Most of the time it's funny. But today it's just sad.

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Re: Re: Americans and their rights


Dec 15, 2012, 9:09 PM

I have been all over this world and I know what the many cultures are like. There is a reason why us Americans are disliked in many portions of the world. Compared to other countries we are not very hospitable, we are rude, we are suspicious, we are an arrogant people, we think our way is the only way, we try to impose our will on others, we are traditionally racist and we by our media and upbringing are very violent. Last but not least we are armed....not a good combo imho. I love my country but let's face it this things are true. Don't believe me? Just travel and ask.

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Re: Re: Americans and their rights


Dec 15, 2012, 9:21 PM

########

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What "parts" of the world are you talking about?


Dec 15, 2012, 9:37 PM [ in reply to Re: Re: Americans and their rights ]

...who dislikes us? Surely not France, England and Russia, right? Didn't we liberate one of those countries in WWII and give a large amount of aid to the other 2?

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Ya need yer guns cuz when the gumment


Dec 15, 2012, 9:56 PM

come it gon get WILD!

You guys should not breed. Seriously.

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^^^^must be a slow night.....


Dec 15, 2012, 10:09 PM

..in the Government Housing Projects......

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Re: ^^^must be a slow night at the gas station


Dec 15, 2012, 10:11 PM

Yayer!

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*partially* correct..slow night at the radio station......


Dec 15, 2012, 10:14 PM

..are you allowed to own guns in the projects?

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Those are olden days


Dec 15, 2012, 11:12 PM [ in reply to What "parts" of the world are you talking about? ]

3/4 of the new generation know little about WWII and could care less. Lets pick a country....say France since you bring it up. Go to France and pick out 20 various people and ask them to honestly how they think Americans are perceived in their country and world wide and ask them to be honest. Do NOT ask your waiter who is expecting a big tip for obvious reasons. You may be very humbled at the responses you get. Get away from the less industrialized countries and again ask your questions and you will see. They have done a few documentaries on this as well. We as Americans view OURSELVES with great esteem but world wide is a different story. Most of these countries know that if we did not exist this world could collapse in to chaos but that still does not change their minds on how we are perceived.

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Some Americans own weapons***


Dec 15, 2012, 9:13 PM



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You sir are one of the very few who gets it


Dec 15, 2012, 9:23 PM

Dd

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And just imagine how many he could have killed


Dec 15, 2012, 9:27 PM

With a good old American made assault rifle.

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