|
Replies: 61
| visibility 1
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
If KB had come before DW4 and lead Clemson to an
May 22, 2018, 11:26 AM
|
|
ACC Championship and the national championship semi-finals, people on this board would be talking about KB for Heisman in 2018. But instead, KB started on the heels of our best QB in program history...a guy that is in the discussion for best college QB ever. Deshaun eventually proved to be a once in a generation-type talent. And he reinforced it with the gaudy numbers he was putting up in the NFL before getting hurt. So that's what KB has to contend with. That's what he's getting compared to. On top of being compared to a true freshman who has the potential to reach DW4 levels. But he's never played in a college football game before. KB has, and last year he won 12 of them.
|
|
|
|
 |
All-TigerNet [13038]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 22360
Joined: 4/24/04
|
Agree Dabo won't follow Saban at Bama***
May 22, 2018, 11:27 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
Is it because Dabo doesn't have a personal relationship with
May 22, 2018, 12:03 PM
|
|
Saban, kind of like with KB and Chad Morris? Is it like that?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13038]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 22360
Joined: 4/3/10
|
Do we have some beef I'm not aware of?***
May 20, 2019, 10:20 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [20945]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10175
Joined: 9/9/04
|
Re: Do we have some beef I'm not aware of?***
May 22, 2018, 12:47 PM
|
|
 .
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [82039]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17305
Joined: 1/14/17
|
Re: If KB had come before DW4 and lead Clemson to an
May 22, 2018, 11:39 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28392]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14061
Joined: 6/27/14
|
i'm still recovering from this belk fiasco...
May 22, 2018, 11:42 AM
|
|
but, you are making too much cents. lots of tards on tardnet. wonder how many thought we wood win 12 with kb??
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5287]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6929
Joined: 11/5/12
|
Re: If KB had come before DW4 and lead Clemson to an
May 22, 2018, 11:44 AM
|
|
Wrong, he's getting compared to about every elite QB as far as his passing capabilities is all, which is what it takes to get to and WIN a National Championship against a team with a GREAT run defense. Let's examine your post....has he yet to even match Tajh Boyd's stats either (yards or passing TD's)?? How about Mayfield's? Winston's? Newton's? Mariota's? Wilson's? Ryan's?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28392]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14061
Joined: 6/27/14
|
Re: If KB had come before DW4 and lead Clemson to an
May 22, 2018, 11:46 AM
|
|
how many championship trophies do those guys have? i see two.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1692]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 2021
Joined: 6/27/13
|
Re: If KB had come before DW4 and lead Clemson to an
May 22, 2018, 11:53 AM
|
|
It’s almost like football is a team sport and playing the “he led us to a championship” card massively oversimplifies the problem and ignores his obvious deficiencies as a player with respect to elite college QBs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30817]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 34493
Joined: 6/22/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
And yet he got a lot closer to a National Championship
May 22, 2018, 11:59 AM
[ in reply to Re: If KB had come before DW4 and lead Clemson to an ] |
|
than all of those guys except DW4 (won it), Mayfield (both made semi-finals), Mariota, Jameis (won it), Cam (won it).
So if stats matter, you listed 13 QBs there and only 4 of them accomplished more than KB from a team perspective.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30817]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 34493
Joined: 6/22/03
|
Let's be honest and open in our safe circle
May 22, 2018, 12:03 PM
|
|
CAM stole one, Jamis raped one RITP.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28392]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14061
Joined: 6/27/14
|
Re: Let's be honest and open in our safe circle
May 22, 2018, 12:04 PM
|
|
correct - dw4 is the only one who won legit
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5287]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6929
Joined: 11/5/12
|
Re: And yet he got a lot closer to a National Championship
May 22, 2018, 12:05 PM
[ in reply to And yet he got a lot closer to a National Championship ] |
|
lol...just curious, how exactly does that strengthen Kelly's chances saying that?? BTW, many of those (below the line, btw... Above is just other Clemson past QB's) are Heisman and Davey O'Brien winners/finalists...guess that doesn't matter when you mentioned Heisman?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
Wow, those guys all won big time awards and
May 22, 2018, 12:07 PM
|
|
KB still took his team further than they did?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5287]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6929
Joined: 11/5/12
|
Re: Wow, those guys all won big time awards and
May 22, 2018, 12:10 PM
|
|
No he didn't.... He went to a playoff and didn't score one TD... Mayfield scored more than one in his loss to Clemson.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
Oops, I forgot you get a boner when thinking about stats
May 22, 2018, 12:17 PM
|
|
Out of those 13 QBs, KB took his team further than Stoudt, Whitehurst, Parker, Boyd, Jackson, Griffin, Wilson and Ryan. How many from that list of QBs won some of them there fancy awards you mentioned?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5287]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6929
Joined: 11/5/12
|
Re: Oops, I forgot you get a boner when thinking about stats
May 22, 2018, 12:19 PM
|
|
I guess you don't read... Stoudt, Whitehurst, Parker... Those are there to show his stats just vs part Clemson guys... The line starts where upper level passing is. Did it bother you his stats look more like Parker's than it does Tajh, Watson, or any of those Heisman or O'Brien finalists, or Super Bowl QB's?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
No, why would that bother me?
May 22, 2018, 12:26 PM
|
|
I watched the games, I saw his performances, I saw his limitations and I saw his strengths. I saw him go 12-2, winning an ACC Championship and making it to the national championship semi finals. So why would I care about his stats compared to Heisman/O'Brien/Super Bowl QBs?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5287]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6929
Joined: 11/5/12
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
That list is basically a who's who of QBs that didn't
May 22, 2018, 12:29 PM
|
|
win a title, except for DW4, Jameis and Cam. So what's your point?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5287]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6929
Joined: 11/5/12
|
Re: That list is basically a who's who of QBs that didn't
May 22, 2018, 1:32 PM
|
|
The point is not a one of them, including Tajh, has less than 3000 yards minus Cam Newton...but even then, he over doubled the passing TD's of Bryant....and for that matter, Lamar is the only one in that lower list to have less than 30 TD's in a season...and even he doubled Bryant's, with MUCH less of a receiving corp and O-line behind him. You guys can play the praise game, but facts are facts. When it's all said and done, he's styill a mediocre passer that did in a year of proof end up wedged in between a 3 star true Freshman Blackman and his own rival's QB in passing efficiency. He had less than half the passing TD's of any QB that had a shot at the top QB awards the last several years (so never should be in a Heisman talk, like you stated people would say above), and he will likely get surpassed by Lawrence, regardless what he did in a different year. This isn't last year, so last year's results won't win him this year's job.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
Lol at taking an entire wall of text to talk about KB's stat
May 22, 2018, 1:43 PM
|
|
last year and then ending it with "This isn't last year..."
Let me guess, you don't see any irony in that, correct?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5287]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6929
Joined: 11/5/12
|
Re: Lol at taking an entire wall of text to talk about KB's stat
May 22, 2018, 1:49 PM
|
|
You don't see the irony of continuing to discuss last year's results only to avoid real asessment of his individual performance (without a single notion into other things, like a dominantly top ACC FSU being 3-6 with a 3 star true freshman at the helm, holding him to 151 yards and 0 passing TD's, regardless of the win the RB's and defense gave the team), as equally ironic?? You don't find it ironic that you use last year's results, but don't want to discuss HIS last year stat results to give proof (or lack thereof) he's a great QB people should not assess to other top level QB's?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
Jesus, I thought you were being hard headed at first but now
May 22, 2018, 2:03 PM
|
|
I realize you might not be a strong reader. I'll type the next part slowly so you have a better chance of understanding:
I have not said anywhere in this thread that KB should be our starting QB.
I have not said anywhere in this thread that KB is at the same level as the top level QBs you listed.
I did say he went 12-2 last year.
In fact, I also said I have seen both his strengths and his limitations. I believe his strength is running the ball, his limitations are in reading defenses and throwing to deep routes. Those are problems for a high level QB competing for a national championship.
Any of this other dumbassery that you think you saw in my posts is made up in your mind. That's a you problem.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5287]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6929
Joined: 11/5/12
|
Re: Jesus, I thought you were being hard headed at first but now
May 22, 2018, 2:25 PM
|
|
HE didn't go 12-2...the team did.
HE sits at #59 in passing efficiency out of 101 guys...not in even in the top 50 percentile in the nation last year...with3 star true freshman blackman (QB of the FSU team that needed an FCS win just to make a bowl game, mind you) sitting a few spots above him, and Jake Bentley, the QB everyone on here makes fun of and says is only good because they play bad SEC-East teams..only 4 spots below him.
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/individual/8
HE, as this "strong" running QB, sits at #169 of 200 ranked in rushing yards per game...With both Travis Etienne and Tavien Feaster above him...along with 22 other QB's ranked higher.
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/individual/7/p4
He has solid rushing TD stats (@#44), but that doesn't show whether the TD was a 20 yard TD or a 1 yard TD. There's also 12 other QB's ranked above him, and a Clemson running back named Travis Etienne. So strength in being good for some rush TD's....has to counter a mediocre passing TD's @#86.
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/individual/750/p2
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/individual/751/p2
And yes, though he sits really high in Completion Percentage (#10),
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/individual/755
and Completions Per game (#44),
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/individual/707
the real kicker that backs up what every person you and others think are bashing him are saying is that he sits VERY low in Passing YARDS per completion (@#102 out of 110)
https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/individual/740/p3
...and it's a mystery why people would be discussing an incoming QB that broke Deshaun Watson's Passing TD and Passing Yards records??
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
I see typing slower didn't help you at all. I'm at a
May 22, 2018, 2:32 PM
|
|
loss as to what I should try next. Maybe bolding some text will help?
I have not said anywhere in this thread that KB should be our starting QB.
I have not said anywhere in this thread that KB is at the same level as the top level QBs you listed.
I did say he went 12-2 last year.
In fact, I also said I have seen both his strengths and his limitations. I believe his strength is running the ball, his limitations are in reading defenses and throwing to deep routes. Those are problems for a high level QB competing for a national championship.
Any of this other dumbassery that you think you saw in my posts is made up in your mind. That's a you problem.
Fingers crossed it works this time...
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5287]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6929
Joined: 11/5/12
|
Re: I see typing slower didn't help you at all. I'm at a
May 22, 2018, 2:47 PM
|
|
Oh , I read that....
"I believe his strength is running the ball"
My response:
HE, as this "strong" running QB, sits at #169 of 200 ranked in rushing yards per game.
"Deshaun eventually proved to be a once in a generation-type talent. And he reinforced it with the gaudy numbers he was putting up in the NFL before getting hurt. So that's what KB has to contend with. That's what he's getting compared to.
My responses: Threw about 14 QB's stats in front of you with his, several of which went to National Championships, several that didn't but still had better stats, many that won or were finalists from upper QB awards, and were in Super Bowls in the NFL...and your response was more sarcasm because you didn't like that the comparison didn't change across more QB's NOT named Watson....one of which was the guy to take Clemson to the ACC but not make an NFL team (Boyd).
"On top of being compared to a true freshman who has the potential to reach DW4 levels."
My response (and I understand for college yes) but he already HAS hit 2 of DW levels at a HS level Mr SC finalist (but not winner) didn't during his HS tenure:
http://www.maxpreps.com/news/rd7kYUyCQUqgZ7tzg0t2Iw/trevor-lawrence-breaks-deshaun-watsons-georgia-career-passing-record.htm
http://www.maxpreps.com/news/FiTlY92Th02xnxm1g4GbDw/trevor-lawrence-breaks-deshaun-watsons-career-touchdown-record.htm
^and it just so happens to be in the two areas Kelly in college lacks in when making those QB comparisons to Watson AND guys not named Watson. So the comparison is actually to Kelly's college career faults vs Trevor's HS proven (against Watson) strength. Yes, that makes a difference.
But he's never played in a college football game before. KB has, and last year he won 12 of them.
My response: No, the team did. He didn't play defense...he didn't hold Miami to 3 points (you could have put any of our QB's out there and as long as they managed the game and score at least 2 FG's, they win), he didn't sack Stidham 11 times....he didn't score half of the TD's in the FSU game. I'm pointing out that the team results are the team's win, not Bryant's alone. You are giving him credit for things that he didn't do on his own. There is another side to the team, and there are RB's on this team that Kelly shouldn't get the credit for doing nothing more than a hand off for their TD.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
Here you are with your stats boner again!
May 22, 2018, 2:58 PM
|
|
If you can't watch KB run the ball and tell that running is a strength of his, then I don't know what to say. You keep listing stats while saying I'm giving him credit for things he can't do on his own (winning football games). When it comes to all these stats you keep listing, which of those can he do on his own? Of course it's a team sport, it's the ultimate team sport. But as a starting QB, he went 12-2 last year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5287]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6929
Joined: 11/5/12
|
Re: Here you are with your stats boner again!
May 22, 2018, 3:08 PM
|
|
Didn't say running isn't his strength...you obviously didn't read that post above again...you'd see I pointed out he's high in rushing TD's in listing the stats. It is his strength. But with any run strength QB, you are only as strong as your passing....if that's not good, stack the deck, blitz, blitz, blitz with good man coverage short...the strength is now a weakness...ask Bama. Ask FSU. Ask Miami, who he had to pass to beat... And did... Still only had 7 rush yards total in that one.. That's low for a run strength QB. Note, I'm refraining from discussing the "unfair" one of Syracuse and his bad ankle. That's what many like to call one dimensional. I don't know many fans of other teams that like the idea of going with a one dimensional QB when they have a generational #1 in the nation talent on board, do you? Shall we ask Bama fans about Tua vs Hurst? It's a fair question.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
Now we're getting somewhere, I finally realized where I keep
May 22, 2018, 3:13 PM
|
|
losing you! You see, I don't like the idea of going with a one dimensional QB when we have a generational #1 in the nation talent on board. I didn't like Cole starting when I could see what DW4 was capable of. If TL is as good as advertised, then he should be our starter. I haven't said anything to the contrary.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5287]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6929
Joined: 11/5/12
|
Re: Now we're getting somewhere, I finally realized where I keep
May 22, 2018, 3:27 PM
|
|
Yep, but think, how are you going to know unless he gets the nod at some point. It's the issue of, could Bryant win the game right now...probably... Could Trevor put it away in the next 2 minutes though. Think Stoudt/Watson FSU.... Watson led a hell of a come back, but alas, wasn't in early enough to seal it. If they had tried him earlier instead of continuing to believe in Stoudt, who went on to miss a wide open Leggett at the end zone... Clemson might have been in the ACC Championship that year.
For Kelly, my main point is in where his issue had also lied the last 2 years, as backup and as the main guy. If he doesn't improve, they need to pull the trigger much faster than they did with Stoudt... Regardless what he did last year. Wait too long, it'll possibly cost one, and could be more costly than they were willing to wager, such as FSU going on to lead the ACC in an unexpected comeback year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
I think you misremember
May 23, 2018, 9:03 AM
|
|
Tigerman1978
We were down 3-0 in that game. Is that the "#### of a come back" you're referencing?
We led most of the game and only a prayer, a trip and fall on 2nd & 24 with 6 minutes left in the game created the tie. Deshaun Watson had plenty of time to win the game, had the ball with the lead or tie for most of the game, but 7 trips inside the FSU 20 yard line returned 17 points. It was an embarrassment of offense and honestly, if anything, showed DW4 wasn't quite ready to be DW4. He was put into a very difficult environment, played well, but clearly there were bumps and he couldn't even manage a first down in overtime.
Also Kelly =/= Cole. With KB as our starting QB, the team went 12-2, won the conference and went to the playoffs. Regardless of whether TL is better, KB allows the coaching staff to ease him into it and not put a true freshman into a difficult situation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [15216]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 18247
Joined: 6/10/09
|
Just wanted to jump in and say KB was ELITE in the redzone
May 22, 2018, 2:44 PM
[ in reply to Re: Jesus, I thought you were being hard headed at first but now ] |
|
Basically led the nation in scoring TDs when in the redzone.
KB also had nowhere close to the talent of DW4's receivers. There was no Mike Williams and Jordan Leggett to bail out KB. There was no Wayne Gallman to protect him.
Then, you factor in that we were in control of every game last year and essentially stopped calling passing plays while putting our backups in. Do you remember us EVER taking out DW4? That would be no, because DW4 threw interceptions causing us to have to win games in the 4th quarter.
The Bama game turned on 3 plays:
1. Deon Cain catches an easy ball and the field is flipped if nothing else. Our defense was playing lights out.
2. KB hands the ball to Feaster on the Jet Sweep following the Hurts fumble - Touchdown. (Watch the skycam version if you don't believe me.)
3. The fluke play where for some unknown reason we didn't run the ball, KB's arm gets knocked, and the ball falls directly into the hands of Hand.
If any of one of those plays turn out differently, the game is totally different. Literally the only mistake you can blame KB for is not handing the ball to Feaster, but maybe it wasn't even a read-option play... no idea except for the fact that Dabo went ballistic on the sideline so pretty sure it was.
But, whatever, I think TL is going to beat out KB for the starting job. Nothing against KB. He just happened to be sandwiched between the 2 greatest QBs in Clemson history.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5287]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6929
Joined: 11/5/12
|
Re: Lol at taking an entire wall of text to talk about KB's stat
May 22, 2018, 2:00 PM
[ in reply to Lol at taking an entire wall of text to talk about KB's stat ] |
|
And no, to be honest, I don't...because what I'm pointing out that he could improve from last year if he wants to hold that job from Trevor, his lack of being able to hit deep ball passes consistent, lack of top passing skills and stats....all were shown in the Spring game this year, as he yet again sailed the ball 10 feet over receivers heads, while not being live, no threat of a DL taking his head off.
It's one thing to be a QB that can consistently hit receivers that drop balls, it's another to be a Senior leader that passes the ball in a glorified scrimmage where a Senior 1st round potential receiver couldn't catch it while not being under any threatening pressure.
The proof is there, for anyone that takes the orange tinted pride glasses off a bit to really assess what is being shown. And regardless whether we say it, or you hear it on ESPN if he falters another year and gets one dimensional until the coaches make a change, or from NFL Scouts....it's a fair assessment of his passing ability with data backup. It's not a reflection of him, his character, or his strengths (running, game management)...it's just an area for improvement some need to learn to be more willing to discuss without thinking people are bashing. Bashing is when there's no proof behind it....there is solid proof behind his passing stats beyond a simple end game score of the whole team effort. Whether it be comparison to other QB's, or setting he was 169 of the top 200 in rushing...or whether it's he sits at #59 of 101 in passing efficiency. It's his real stats.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
So basically, what you're saying is
May 22, 2018, 2:11 PM
|
|
-It's ok to use his 2017 stats to decide who you think should be QB in 2018.
-It's not ok to use his 2017 results because that was last year and this isn't last year.
Got it...
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5287]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6929
Joined: 11/5/12
|
Re: So basically, what you're saying is
May 22, 2018, 2:28 PM
|
|
No, I'm saying it's better to use his individual results/stats over a team record that the defense he doesn't play on had every bit of hand in too. Guess you missed that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
No, I'm results oriented. I like team accomplishments over
May 22, 2018, 2:34 PM
|
|
individual stats. Plus individual stats still rely on the team's performance. The only stat I care about are wins and losses. Did that help?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5287]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6929
Joined: 11/5/12
|
Re: No, I'm results oriented. I like team accomplishments over
May 22, 2018, 2:56 PM
|
|
So his passing stats are what held Miami to 3? Gotcha. His RB's making 3 of the 4 TD's vs FSU is because he can rush the ball well.... See how that sounds.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
There you go again, making up things that you
May 22, 2018, 3:15 PM
|
|
magically think I said.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5287]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6929
Joined: 11/5/12
|
Re: There you go again, making up things that you
May 22, 2018, 4:25 PM
|
|
^ FYI, that was showing the point of where you keep saying HIS records. His are only the offense, the defense also won those games...so pointing out where your use of "his" is not the appropriate word that should be used. It's "their" record...."his" implies single ownership/responsibility, thus sounds like you are crediting him more than the team as a whole.
Technically, to look at Bryant as best as possible, you have to look at individual, otherwise you aren't telling whether the QB was the bigger reason for the game result, or of the RB's were, or if the WR's getting a very short passes and running 50+ yards were the reason. To me, there's a difference of a QB being 3-10 yards effective and being 40 yards effective...or 2 RB's accounting for 3 TD's and 137 yards in a 4 TD game where the QB didn't score but 1 rush TD, had 0 pass TD's, 151 yards passing, 60 yards rushing. IMO, that looks like Etienne and Choice carried the offensive side in the FSU game more than anyone else.
I myself like to assess each person's part, so that I can tell where things were and were not, and who is and isn't the reason. Just like, when I look at completion %, I also like to try to find out if the incompletions were the QB fault, or the WR dropping it....same for interceptions (looked at that when looking at DW4's interception rate when discussing that back when he was getting drafted..several were on the WR's, not Deshaun). Hope that makes sense.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [36409]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 21512
Joined: 10/27/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Yeah well,
May 22, 2018, 11:52 AM
|
|
Lawrence has never lost a college game and KB has lost two so there's that!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93667]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95418
Joined: 12/25/09
|
...and then there's this.
May 22, 2018, 11:56 AM
|
|
Many have come out of the woodwork to criticize KB now that we've seen Trevor. Comparing KB to Watson is natural but foolish. Imo, the only legitimate comparison to Watson is TL. Perhaps that's a little naive and unreasonable because Watson is gone and TL hasn't faced a college defense that's allow to break bones.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30817]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 34493
Joined: 6/22/03
|
Only time will tell if grads are better fans than non-grads
May 22, 2018, 11:54 AM
|
|
And Old people
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1692]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 2021
Joined: 6/27/13
|
Re: If KB had come before DW4 and lead Clemson to an
May 22, 2018, 11:58 AM
|
|
KB led a stacked team through a weak ACC en route to a CFB playoff berth where he showed he has major flaws trying to attack an elite defense. The “KB won 12 games and led us to a conference championship” argument is tired, lazy, and massively oversimplifies the argument.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
That's cute, perhaps you're hard of reading?***
May 22, 2018, 12:02 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1692]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 2021
Joined: 6/27/13
|
Re: That's cute, perhaps you're hard of reading?***
May 22, 2018, 12:14 PM
|
|
No, I understand exactly what you posted. And it’s the same lazy argument that team results should matter more than individual play in a position battle. You make no meaningful argument.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
No, apparently you have no understanding whatsoever
May 22, 2018, 12:19 PM
|
|
what I posted. If you did, you wouldn't be responding like you did. Said another way, it's your response that tipped me off that you're clueless. Hth.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1692]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 2021
Joined: 6/27/13
|
Re: No, apparently you have no understanding whatsoever
May 22, 2018, 12:30 PM
|
|
Your entire premise is that KB is being unfairly judged and your supporting posts in this thread suggest you believe since KB was the starter on a team that won 12 games he should be held in higher regard than QBs who individually performed better than him. Any reasonable person would come to the same conclusion. Now if you want to clarify that feel free to. But resorting to ad hominem because you feel someone has interpreted your post differently based on the mood of this board and your subsequent posts on the discussion is childish.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
Here is my premise and what I believe...
May 22, 2018, 12:42 PM
|
|
1) Tnet would be judging KB much more favorably if KB went 12-2, won an ACC Championship and lost in the national semi-finals before DW4 ever stepped foot on campus. Do you agree with that?
2) Because KB immediately followed the best QB we have ever had, and probably one of the best QBs to play the college game, that is the standard by which KB is being compared. Do you agree with that?
3) Additionally, in May of 2018, tnet is using KB's 2017 performance in comparing him to the potential of a true freshman QB. Do you agree with that?
4) Also, Trevor Lawrence has never played in a college football game. Do you agree with that?
5) Finally, KB played in 14 games last year and won 12 of them. Do you agree with that?
Those are the 5 points I made. You inserted some other type of argument into my post that I was not making. Does that help, was that helpful?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28392]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14061
Joined: 6/27/14
|
Re: Here is my premise and what I believe...
May 22, 2018, 12:57 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1692]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 2021
Joined: 6/27/13
|
Re: Here is my premise and what I believe...
May 22, 2018, 1:34 PM
[ in reply to Here is my premise and what I believe... ] |
|
1) No, I don’t. Tajh won an ACC championship and an Orange Bowl and was still judged harshly on here due to performance in critical games (specifically vs SCar). Despite team performance he was still judged on individual performance. I believe KB would be judged similarly, especially with his lack of passing ability.
2) No, I don’t. In this thread alone KB has been compared to Whitehurst, Boyd, Parker, Stoudt, Mariota, Mayfield, Wilson, Griffin, etc... and been held up to the standard some of those okay to great talents set. Seems like those are a lot of names that aren’t “Watson”. And your responses to these comparisons were in the “well KB’s team ended up doing better than a lot of those guys” line of thought.
3) Sure, several posters are.
4) He has no official game stats, this is correct.
5) Yes, though saying KB won 12 of them minimizes the impact the rest of the team had. KB was on a team that won 12 games and using that to make any sort of argument without acknowledging how much more talented KB’s surrounding cast was than every other team he played with the exception of Bama is lazy. Especially when you go on later in the thread to downplay KB’s weak passing stats compared to other good QB’s by saying things along the lines of KB took his team further than other QBs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105574]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 44178
Joined: 12/22/08
|
Re: Here is my premise and what I believe...
May 22, 2018, 1:50 PM
|
|
1) Because Tajh lost to USuCk and then did what he did in the OB against WVU.
2) LOL, one moran on this board is comparing KB's stats to Heisman winners.
3) Finally you're right about one of these!
4) Right again, batting .500 at this point!
5) You should have ended it at "Yes" but I'm still going to give you credit for this answer. Btw, you're creating arguments I am not making again, just a heads up.
So you scored 3 correct out of 5 questions. That's a HOF career in baseball!
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28392]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14061
Joined: 6/27/14
|
Re: If KB had come before DW4 and lead Clemson to an
May 22, 2018, 12:04 PM
[ in reply to Re: If KB had come before DW4 and lead Clemson to an ] |
|
you mean the oline we showed up with in the semis was stacked?? i did not know that - thanks for that tidbit of info
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1692]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 2021
Joined: 6/27/13
|
Re: If KB had come before DW4 and lead Clemson to an
May 22, 2018, 12:18 PM
|
|
Dear Diary,
Today I learned the 2017 Clemson Tigers football team was not absolutely stacked with talent because a single position unit was not elite.
Sincerely,
TF22334
PS: The 2017 was actually stacked and having a merely good, not great or elite OL doesn’t change that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [67819]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 115459
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: If KB had come before DW4 and lead Clemson to an
May 22, 2018, 12:41 PM
|
|
this is kind of like what Andre Ellington went through. He was vastly underappreciated because he followed CJ.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2420]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2471
Joined: 3/26/07
|
Re: If KB had come before DW4 and lead Clemson to an
May 22, 2018, 1:40 PM
|
|
And Cole S more than likely would have won the same number of games and maybe one more beating Bama, but we will never know. A win is a win, but beating a team really bad instead of winning by two touchdowns, is always a win. I would say, if you put the subs in, play to their strengths and get them experience throwing the ball down the field, like they are the starting quarterback...
Don't quit playing because we have the game won. We have talent, use it. A couple more years of not throwing to our receivers and the receivers will start going to somewhere else that does throw the ball.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16134]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 26435
Joined: 11/18/03
|
Would KB still struggle with the forward pass? That's what
May 22, 2018, 3:41 PM
|
|
drives my opinion...A QB's ability to throw the ball down the field consistently at a school renowned for it's WRs...Not who preceded him
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [28392]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14061
Joined: 6/27/14
|
this is still trending?? is anyone not understanding the
May 22, 2018, 4:30 PM
|
|
op's point. seems quite simple.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5287]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6929
Joined: 11/5/12
|
Re: this is still trending?? is anyone not understanding the
May 23, 2018, 9:48 AM
|
|
That's it's okay to state our RB's need to develop blocking skills like their predecessor Gallman had, and our TE's need to step up more in games like Leggett did, but you better not say a word about Kelly Bryant's needs for improvement because the team as a whole had a 12-2 record and he was following Watson so that gives him a free ride from any criticism? Am I getting close??
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 61
| visibility 1
|
|
|
50
