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9 seasons (2 NCAA, 3 NIT, 4 no postseason) is reasonable?
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110%er [6075]
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9 seasons (2 NCAA, 3 NIT, 4 no postseason) is reasonable?
Mar 18, 2019, 2:26 PM
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How can anyone justify another year of this mediocrity?!!!
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: 9 seasons (2 NCAA, 3 NIT, 4 no postseason) is reasonable?
Mar 18, 2019, 2:34 PM
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1st 6 years: 4 no postseason, 1 NCAA tournament, 1 NIT
Last 3 years: 2 NIT, 1 Sweet 16 appearance
Would you say we are heading in the wrong direction?
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110%er [6075]
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Looking at next years roster, no***
Mar 18, 2019, 2:35 PM
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: Looking at next years roster, no***
Mar 18, 2019, 2:38 PM
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Based on your guess of what will happen?
Can we wait to discuss next year's team after we see next year's final product?
You listed 9 years. Then when my response was not to your liking and did not support your point, you add a 10th year that has yet to happen.
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Commissioner [986]
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Re: Looking at next years roster, no***
Mar 18, 2019, 2:58 PM
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NIT this year with a ton of seniors. Not a good look at all . Next year will be the make or break year.
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Mascot [23]
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Re: Looking at next years roster, no***
Mar 18, 2019, 2:58 PM
[ in reply to Re: Looking at next years roster, no*** ] |
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It's tough...it's not like Clemson basketball is some historical powerhouse. We have only EVER been to the tournament 12 times and to the Sweet 16 or beyond 4 times. Generally speaking, Clemson basketball is really about as good as it's ever been right now. In that way, I'm a little bit of a CBB apologist.
But, at a certain point we have to start to expect more than the status quo. We support an amazing university with an amazing fanbase and more than enough resources to field an elite basketball program. There is absolutely no reason the bball program can't be on par with football, a la Ohio State and Florida in the past. Littlejohn is a phenomenal home venue when the team is good and well-supported. Is CBB the right person to break through that glass ceiling? It's hard to say, but it feels like things are starting to stagnate. But, at the same time, I remember TONS of people being on the fire Dabo bandwagon in 2009-2010 and having some faith in him has obviously panned out nicely.
This season was a tough pill to swallow because expectations were as high as they've ever been. 4/5 of the starters on a Sweet 16 team came back and we didn't even make the tournament. But, weren't those expectations as high as they were because of CBB's efforts? If we fire him, whose the ideal candidate to replace him?
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Orange Blooded [3730]
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It is always said that the CU fanbase will not support MBB..
Mar 18, 2019, 4:47 PM
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...however, the fanbase is passionate about the university's athletics.
I just can't accept that IF a competitive basketball team was fielded, that the students, fans, and alumni wouldn't get behind them and support them through packing Littlejohn and traveling with the team to away games.
It just seems that with the lack of quality coaching that can bring in quality recruits and the coach them to success, we find ourselves in the exact same situation, year after year.
I for one would follow the MBB team "almost" as hard as I do the football team, if I didn't have to constantly watch in misery the abysmal and inept play, coaching and overall heatbreak that follows this program game after game.
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this post, but, really excluding the aberration that was last year, Brownell has been the exact same coach that I perceived him to be after his first year, when he lost a host of players to transfers and a mentality that a strong defensive game would negate the need for a serious offensive game.
He'll never change his coaching style. At some point, maybe, DRad will decide to move on.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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in the last 5 years, Brownell has 9 wins over ACC teams
Mar 18, 2019, 3:24 PM
[ in reply to Re: Looking at next years roster, no*** ] |
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that finished conference play above .500. NINE
and that is year 5-9 of his program
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Mascot [23]
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Re: in the last 5 years, Brownell has 9 wins over ACC teams
Mar 18, 2019, 3:36 PM
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I didn't intend my post to be an endorsement of the job that Brownell has done. It's just, no prior coach has ever really done any better. I'm wondering who folks see as a potential replacement.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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I'm not anti-BB, but that is simply not true
Mar 18, 2019, 3:39 PM
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whether you like OP or not, he clearly outperformed BB. I know he didn't win an NCAAT game, etc... I know you could argue different ACC, etc...
but the numbers show they played relatively the same SOS
In BB's year 3--5, when the "OP left the cupboard bare" excuse no longer plays, BB went 2-21 against ACC teams that finished .500 or better
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Mascot [23]
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Re: I'm not anti-BB, but that is simply not true
Mar 18, 2019, 3:44 PM
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I was a student during the OP years. 2008-2010 was a fun time to be a Clemson basketball fan for sure. But, two highly seeded teams lost in the first round of the tournament. Granted, Villanova and Michigan were bad draws under the circumstances, but still.
I certainly don't think it's objective that OP was better than BB. BB has a Sweet Sixteen under his belt. OP never came close. I suppose it depends on what measure of 'success' you're using. At the very least, OP and BB are comparable. Which is exactly why I'm wondering who, if anyone, we have in mind to come in here and elevate Clemson basketball to a level that it's, objectively, never been?
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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I get the lack of NCAAT wins... but I see no scenario where
Mar 18, 2019, 3:45 PM
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the claim can be made that OP and BB are comparable, and I'm not against Brownell... I just don't see it
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Mascot [23]
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Re: I get the lack of NCAAT wins... but I see no scenario where
Mar 18, 2019, 3:56 PM
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We've been largely mediocre under BB, so I'm not going to get on any kind of soapbox defending him. I guess, to articulate my point a little better, I'm just wondering if we're in a grass is always greener scenario given how woefully the team underachieved this season, because I cannot think of a single coach who is available that I think would come in here and elevate Clemson to the upper echelon of the ACC, which seems to be the expectation around here.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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I think that's the wrong approach... the next guy may fail
Mar 18, 2019, 4:05 PM
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as well... but at this point, I think you owe it to the kids and university to go a different direction and see what happens.
I don't think anyone is asking for upper-echelon of ACC. I think people just want consistency, and that is what we don't have.
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Mascot [23]
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Re: I think that's the wrong approach... the next guy may fail
Mar 18, 2019, 4:18 PM
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I guess that's where there's some disagreement between us. BB's only had one sub .500 season. Seems like what you're upset at is that he hasn't consistently beaten the upper-tier ACC teams, but he's always managed to beat the dregs. Clemson has, pretty consistently, been a competitive, if somewhat mediocre team during his tenure.
I'm definitely not clamoring for him to keep his job, but also wouldn't want to run him out of town without a solid replacement lined up.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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I'm not saying consistently beat them... my point is
Mar 18, 2019, 4:27 PM
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we are going into year 10 and it looks like a complete rebuild
The previous 9 resulted in 2 NCAAT bids, one of which was that first year with OP's guys. If you concede we are rebuilding after 8 years, with only 1 NCAAT of BB's guys to show, then I think you have to consider looking elsewhere.
Again, not bashing BB. I think he's a good coach. I just don't think he's been able to get it done here like it could be.
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Mascot [23]
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Re: I'm not saying consistently beat them... my point is
Mar 18, 2019, 4:32 PM
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That's a completely fair point. If next year is as ugly as it's looking like it's going to be it will be time to move on. Wonder if Mike Young would consider making the jump? I actually think he'd be an excellent hire for Clemson if he'd be willing to leave a pretty solid, comfortable gig behind.
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Legend [19687]
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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After 9 years, our program has no clear direction.
Mar 18, 2019, 3:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: 9 seasons (2 NCAA, 3 NIT, 4 no postseason) is reasonable? ] |
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4 redshirt seniors this year. This was the year for Coach Brownell to show that he had things moving in the right direction, building upon last year's successes.
After 9 years, we have a very clear perspective on what this coaching staff can accomplish.
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Associate AD [810]
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Re: 9 seasons (2 NCAA, 3 NIT, 4 no postseason) is reasonable?
Mar 18, 2019, 2:50 PM
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Looks to me like we're right on schedule. Tommy Bowden was given 9 full seasons and 6 games into the 10th before Clemson decided his mediocrity wasn't enough. One top 20 season (one!) and a 3-5 record in the weak bowls we played in. I'd say some time next season we might be looking for a new coach. But then again, we're "just a football school."
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110%er [6825]
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Re: 9 seasons (2 NCAA, 3 NIT, 4 no postseason) is reasonable?
Mar 18, 2019, 3:07 PM
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Folks forget that Brad was robbed in 2013-2014. 10-8 and 20 wins and no bid. They reach down to a 9-9 State team we beat by 17.
Our lack of a post season was rebuilding post OP and pre-construction issues. Even with that, he is out performing every other prior coach.
Cliff Ellis 2 seasons above .500 and one at .500 30% .500 or better
Rick Barnes 1 season above .500 in ACC play. 25% .500 or better
Oliver Purnell 3 seasons above .500 in ACC play. 43% .500 or better
Brad Brownell 4 season above .500, 2 seasons at .500 in ACC play. 66% he is .500 or better
Back during the Barnes era, you could finish 7-9 and be 18-14 and go to a dance. Today you can go 10-8 20-12 and not dance at all.
Next year, Brad will become our winning-est coach. Only need 9 to catch Ellis.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Brad's first team was his second best. OP took over for
Mar 18, 2019, 3:17 PM
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Larry Shyatt and built us into a repeat NCAA Tournament team. Brad took over and, after trying to force the team to play his slowdown style for November and December, he started to let them run a bit and we got better and made the tournament like we should have.
Brad inherited a much better situation than OP. His inability to sell himself, his program and his vision for it has produced where we are today. He just lacks the charisma and sales ability to be an effective program leader at Clemson.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Brad's first team was his second best. OP took over for
Mar 18, 2019, 3:33 PM
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No doubt that Brownell started at a better spot than OP... but OP did not leave him a group of NBA bound players. Stitt, Grant and Young were good but not a "fantastic" legacy. Brad did well to win with OP's players as OP struggled to win with OP's players. The drop-off in 2011-12 shows that OP wasn't planning to stay around.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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not so fast... in BB's first two years, he went 6-6 against
Mar 18, 2019, 3:36 PM
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ACC teams that finished .500 or better in conference
In years 3-5 (which is now 100% his program), he went 2-21 in those games.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: not so fast... in BB's first two years, he went 6-6 against
Mar 18, 2019, 3:45 PM
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12-13 he was 5-12 in conference... we only had two ranked ACC teams at the end of the year. Basically the conference was a mess, weak in the top and middle, and that showed what OP really left.
The next year Brad did knock-off 3 top ranked team in a row (UL, Duke, Miami) in a much deeper conference (5 ranked teams and one team to make it to elite 8 unranked). Oh and that wasn't even in LJ.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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I don't get what you don't understand... I included those
Mar 18, 2019, 3:47 PM
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I gave you his numbers against ACC teams that finished above .500. That would be 10-8 or better. I think those wins even make it look worse, b/c with those wins, he has still only won 9 of those games the last 5 years.
9-35
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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OP took us to a tournament 6 of his 7 years and recruited
Mar 18, 2019, 3:52 PM
[ in reply to Re: Brad's first team was his second best. OP took over for ] |
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the players that went to four straight NCAA Tournaments. I don't understand where you get this "Brad did well to win with OP's players as OP struggled to win with OP's players." That is totally false.
Brad tried his slow down style with his first team and they started 5 - 4 before he stopped coaching them down and let them get out and run.
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All-TigerNet [14470]
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Re: OP took us to a tournament 6 of his 7 years and recruited
Mar 18, 2019, 4:20 PM
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GUESS YOU POSSIBLY DID NOT KNOW THAT SEVERAL OF OP'S PLAYERS WERE GOING TO TRANSFER HAD HE STAYED ANOTHER YEAR. AND HE MAY HAVE STAYED HAD HE BEEN ABLE TO KEEP HIS ZIPPER UP, MUCH LIKE SLICK RICK WHEN HE LEFT.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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I was simply pointing out that OP was a better coach than BB
Mar 18, 2019, 4:32 PM
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and his teams performed much better. To suggest otherwise is revisionist history.
I get a kick out of all of the spinning that goes on for the Brad Brownell sycophants. They have created this false narrative of Clemson's basketball history to remove any responsibility for the state of our program to the head coach.
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All-TigerNet [14470]
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Re: I was simply pointing out that OP was a better coach than BB
Mar 18, 2019, 4:58 PM
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I AM NOT A BRAD FAN, I AM A CLEMSON FAN. AS LONG AS HE IS HERE I WILL SUPPORT HIM. AM I SATISFIED, HE!! NO. BUT THERE ARE MANY BETTER PLACES THAN A INTERNET BOARD THAT EVERY RECRUIT IN THE WORLD CAN SEE TO B!TCH ABOUT OUR SITUATION. HAVE YOU EVER EMAILED DRAD. HAVE YOU EVER EMAILED BRAD. THERE IS AN IM BUTTON IN THE CHAT ROOM. A LOT OF YOU PEOPLE WILL NOT EVEN VISIT CHAT FOR WHATEVER REASON I DONT KNOW. CALLING HIM CUTE LITTLE NAMES IS NOT FUNNY IN THE LEAST. DRAD FIRED A HALL OF FAME BASEBALL COACH. I IMAGINE IF HE FEELS THE NEED TO PULL THE TRIGGER HE WILL.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Yes. I wrote an email to DRAD three years ago and he
Mar 18, 2019, 5:07 PM
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kindly replied. I expressed my concerns. We disagreed and here we are.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Brownell has won 9 games in the last 5 years over ACC teams
Mar 18, 2019, 3:38 PM
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But doesn't that make it a tautology of sorts if he is hovering at or slightly above .500 in the past 5 years? I mean you are not going to be 10-8, knock off all the above .500 teams unless you are getting beat by the bottom dwellers.
Also, what I don't see is the bizarre loses... like when OP loses to Charlotte or a bottom-table FSU/GT. Seriously, we get knocked out by a 2-14 GT team. For as many wins as OP could make, he could make as many Ls. I wonder how well Barnes did against above .500 teams.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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What? He's 9-35 the past five years in those games***
Mar 18, 2019, 3:41 PM
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110%er [6825]
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Re: What? He's 9-35 the past five years in those games***
Mar 18, 2019, 9:27 PM
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Guess what. Duke is 6-4 this year against ACC teams with +0.501. I am not going back to bother their record for five years but their road w% is about 60% so 1-1 with top teams is going to keep elite teams close to that 50% mark. Are you expecting someone to be .500+ against above .500 teams? If so you are expecting UNC/Duke/Louisville level basketball. That just is not in the cards for this program. I would love it to be but even Barnes could not do that.
What I want us to do is beat the weaker teams and give us a chance at knocking off the better opponents. Brad does that. Keep us in the chase as that is something that our level of support seems to max out at.
Brad is 2-7. 4-5 last year. 3-5 in 14-15. 6-12 in 16-17 post construction is forgivable since the ACC sported 7-8 teams with 10 wins in conference and we basically had nothing to show recruits.
Considering about 75% of the top teams are Duke, Carolina, Cuse, Louisville under Pitino, and even a strong ND squad, upsetting opponents 20% of the time is something.
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CU Medallion [50807]
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I would think we need a trophy from
Mar 18, 2019, 3:07 PM
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the NIT before we start expecting success at the big Tournament. Or do we just want to get there and come back home quickly?
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All-TigerNet [14751]
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It's a prestigious resume for sure
Mar 18, 2019, 4:00 PM
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Yep
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All-In [44047]
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Is being next to last in the ACC in basketball spending reasonable?
Mar 18, 2019, 9:00 PM
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Is not having a sellout for a home ACC basketball game in January reasonable, when the game immediately followed a football parade with 50,000 fans in attendance?
Bottom line: Clemson doesn’t support basketball worth a crap. Want a winner? Make basketball more of a priority.
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