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Hall of Famer [24440]
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wake me up when i'm not one of the people in the middle
Aug 30, 2012, 9:34 AM
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getting screwed by both parties. if i was rich, i'd have some nice tax breaks to take advantage of. if i was poor, i wouldn't pay for anything. but i'm one of the guys in the middle who neither party really speaks to. why? because we go about our business, do our jobs, raise our kids, buy stuff, and pay taxes...lots and lots of taxes. and neither tboi nor pob gets this.
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All-In [31887]
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What are these tax breaks that you believe the GOP....
Aug 30, 2012, 9:37 AM
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is speaking to that doesn't have an impact for you too?
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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25%. another couple of thousand really doesn't matter that
Aug 30, 2012, 10:02 AM
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much. more importantly, i'm willing to pay a little more. what i'd like to see is a candidate who looks me in the eye and says "your taxes are going to go up. we have no choice. for the sake of your children and the future of this country, they need to go up. but every extra tax dollar that comes out of your pocket is going to go toward the debt. and for every extra dollar that we take out of your pocket, we are going to cut one dollar from spending. and THAT dollar is going to go towards paying down the debt." but not one of them has the balls to do that.
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All-In [31887]
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Huh? What does the "25%" mean?***
Aug 30, 2012, 10:04 AM
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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that's about what i'm paying in taxes, state and federal.***
Aug 30, 2012, 10:08 AM
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All-In [31887]
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Ok...I'm not sure I get your point....
Aug 30, 2012, 10:10 AM
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the "Bush tax cuts" cut your federal tax rates. GOP is pushing to keep the current rates for everyone. How is that pushing a tax advantage for the rich?
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All-TigerNet [11208]
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I think that he's talking about loopholes and such.
Aug 30, 2012, 10:12 AM
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Those of us, in the middle, have no such advantages.
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All-In [31887]
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Such as?***
Aug 30, 2012, 10:12 AM
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-TigerNet [11208]
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I utilized every single one that was available to me.
Aug 30, 2012, 10:21 AM
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Didn't amount to much.
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Rock Defender [53]
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need a better CPA***
Aug 30, 2012, 10:25 AM
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All-TigerNet [11208]
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I can't afford one. Or, is it that I can't afford not to
Aug 30, 2012, 10:30 AM
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have one.
Maybe you missed the "single" status of my filing.
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110%er [7980]
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indeed
Aug 30, 2012, 10:52 AM
[ in reply to need a better CPA*** ] |
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my tax rate compared to my gross is only 8%
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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maybe you should get a dressage horse. ;)
Aug 30, 2012, 10:27 AM
[ in reply to I utilized every single one that was available to me. ] |
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don't get me wrong. i like romney and have no problem with the fact that he's rich. he earned it. but the fact that the tax code has been written in such a way to allow certain special groups certain tax breaks is kind of jacked up. as tboi pointed out elsewhere, i could have gotten a tax credit by buying a volt or a golfcart. but is that really helping anyone but me?
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Rock Defender [53]
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why does it need to help anyone but you? The govt
Aug 30, 2012, 11:14 AM
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isn't giving you money, you're keeping your own money???
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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Where, exactly, do I put in the paper work to have my
Aug 30, 2012, 11:18 AM
[ in reply to we do, most just don't use them.*** ] |
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earned income taxed at the same rate as capital gains? I'm not finding that on the IRA site.
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Rock Defender [53]
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He didn't state that. He made a blanket statement that
Aug 30, 2012, 11:21 AM
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there are no loopholes the rich commonly use that we can also use.
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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And you made a blanket statement that we have them,
Aug 30, 2012, 11:25 AM
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but don't use them. So what are we missing?
And just an FYI,I paid a little under 15% effectively in federal income tax, so I'm not complaning. But why are my wife and I paying 28% on the last dollar earned while cap gains are taxed at 15%? (And yes, that is a different issue than "tax loopholes", but not by much)
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Rock Defender [53]
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GOSH. He said "Those of us, in the middle, have no such
Aug 30, 2012, 12:26 PM
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advantages."
I said "we do"...aka "We do have some such advantages".
Doesn't mean we have em all, but good Lord, we have plenty and there are plenty of people who do their 1040EZ each and every year without thinking twice about ways that could save if a concerted effort was made.
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Rock Defender [53]
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millions of middle class people own rental properties. best
Aug 30, 2012, 11:09 PM
[ in reply to I think that he's talking about loopholes and such. ] |
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tax break in the world.
how about small farms and small businesses owned by millions of middle class families.
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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i'm not sure what you're not getting. my tax rate is
Aug 30, 2012, 10:16 AM
[ in reply to Ok...I'm not sure I get your point.... ] |
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probably about appropriate. the rich folks ought to be paying more, within reason. and some of them do, but many of them are getting all sorts of breaks and taking advantage of all sorts of loopholes that we, the middle, don't get. the same goes for corporations. the welfare class, on the other hand, doesn't contribute much, if anything. so we, the middle, pay for much of the budget, but get very little out of it. i'm not sure how else i can explain it.
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All-In [31887]
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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a lot of the rich are skating. a lot of companies are
Aug 30, 2012, 4:37 PM
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skating. some are paying their fair share, but one of my problems is all the loopholes. one company that makes a billion dollars should pay the same amount of tax as the next company that makes a billion dollars.
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All-In [31887]
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That's fine, but you're changing the point a bit....
Aug 30, 2012, 4:44 PM
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the fact of the matter is that I'm sure some rich people are abusing the system, but in total, they pair a higher rate of gross income than any other bracket.
I don't see the point in having a tax system debate based on a few people that skate the system.
I think stats show that the "rich", in general, don't have all these loopholes to hide all of the income from taxes as many believe. I think it's just something people hear and believe without knowing the details.
I thought we were talking about individuals at the moment and not specifically about corporations.
Frankly, I think our corporate tax rate should be reduced and simplified.
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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the corporate tax rate should aboslutely be lowered and
Aug 30, 2012, 4:49 PM
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simplified. but get rid of all the backdoor deals for special interest groups that let them skate tax-free.
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All-In [31887]
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Fine...but back to your earlier statement.....
Aug 30, 2012, 4:55 PM
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You said this earlier:
the rich folks ought to be paying more, within reason. and some of them do, but many of them are getting all sorts of breaks and taking advantage of all sorts of loopholes that we, the middle, don't get
You say "some do, but many"...I don't think the tax stats support that. The stats clearly show that as income brackets increase so does the effective tax rate. It also shows that the upper income brackets pay a higher share of total taxes than their share of income.
I don't see how, by the numbers, the "middle class" is being treated poorly in the current tax distribution.
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-TigerNet [11208]
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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and to me that seems too high. unless you made over a
Aug 30, 2012, 10:21 AM
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million bucks last year. 
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All-TigerNet [11208]
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That includes all "taxes".***
Aug 30, 2012, 10:22 AM
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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Move to TX, FL, WY or other state without state income tax.
Aug 30, 2012, 11:19 AM
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hth
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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the tax code ain't written based on your job title. lol***
Aug 30, 2012, 11:44 AM
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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No, but income is often directly proportional...***
Aug 30, 2012, 11:49 AM
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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i suspect i pay about what anyone in my tax bracket pays.
Aug 30, 2012, 11:58 AM
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25% (state and federal) seems about right for a married homeowner with 2 kids.
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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I was just mocking you because you're one of those
Aug 30, 2012, 12:06 PM
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high-dollar parasites.
Actually, it was a yoke.
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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i am a parasite. there, i said it. but i wouldn't have to be
Aug 30, 2012, 1:22 PM
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if allstate and nationwide didn't #### people over so much.
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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Heard that.***
Aug 30, 2012, 4:45 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Most doctors & lawyers own at least 1 rental property. The
Aug 30, 2012, 11:24 PM
[ in reply to How does an atty pay so little? You do a lot of pro bono? ] |
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worlds best tax break. I heard a Congressman say one time that anyone owning rental property and still paying taxes needs to fire their CPA.
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Orange Blooded [2425]
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So, support a consumption tax***
Aug 30, 2012, 9:40 AM
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All-TigerNet [11208]
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Still in the middle and in the minority.***
Aug 30, 2012, 9:42 AM
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CU Medallion [56062]
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Orange Blooded [2425]
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I guess you skipped percentages in grade school***
Aug 30, 2012, 9:54 AM
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CU Medallion [56062]
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I was sick that day.
Aug 30, 2012, 9:59 AM
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So why you wanna discourage people from consuming, particularly when consumption drives GDP growth?
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Orange Blooded [2425]
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Because having more money discourages consumption***
Aug 30, 2012, 10:02 AM
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All-TigerNet [11208]
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wut?***
Aug 30, 2012, 10:04 AM
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Orange Blooded [2425]
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I was following his logic
Aug 30, 2012, 10:06 AM
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Which is that having more money in your pocket discourages you from spending it.
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All-TigerNet [11208]
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ahhh...I see that now.
Aug 30, 2012, 10:08 AM
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He's a moron.
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CU Medallion [56062]
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All-In [34105]
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You and Alan Greenspan are morons.
Aug 30, 2012, 10:18 AM
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When have higher prices ever discouraged spending? -pob
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Orange Blooded [2425]
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Re: You and Alan Greenspan are morons.
Aug 30, 2012, 10:24 AM
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Having more money discourages spending. -spooneye
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CU Medallion [56062]
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Orange Blooded [2425]
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Right, because Americans are so good at saving
Aug 30, 2012, 10:20 AM
[ in reply to So is Alan Greenspan. ] |
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The majority of people in America spend their paycheck before they receive it.
If people are so good at saving, why do we need social security?
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CU Medallion [56062]
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Taxing consumption discourages consumption.
Aug 30, 2012, 10:13 AM
[ in reply to I was following his logic ] |
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Consumption drives GDP. This is apparently very difficult for you to understand.
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All-In [31887]
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Got some data to back that up? We have consumption....
Aug 30, 2012, 10:15 AM
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taxes now in the form of state and local sales taxes. Outside of the issue of neighboring area with different rates, I've never heard of a sales tax increase impacting consumption per se.
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All-In [34105]
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You've never heard of an elastic demand curve?
Aug 30, 2012, 10:19 AM
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Higher prices = less consumption
I'm surprised to see you debating that point, flow.
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Orange Blooded [2425]
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You seem to be forgetting the higher wealth side of the curv
Aug 30, 2012, 10:23 AM
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I guess it economics doesnt fit your agenda.
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All-In [34105]
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Re: You seem to be forgetting the higher wealth side of the curv
Aug 30, 2012, 10:26 AM
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I've been ignoring that half while you've been ignoring the other.
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Orange Blooded [2425]
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I've ignored neither, both adjustments bring the equation
Aug 30, 2012, 10:28 AM
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back to equilibrium.
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All-In [31887]
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Not at all the same thing....I would have expected you to...
Aug 30, 2012, 10:28 AM
[ in reply to You've never heard of an elastic demand curve? ] |
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know that.
A tax is applied across the board and it's not a relation price from one supplier to the next.
Also, you're forgetting that pricing impact is relative to apparent income, which would increase since no fed income tax would come of paycheck.
Higher prices to not directly equate to less consumption...that is if you read past the theory in a middle-school text book 
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All-In [34105]
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Re: Not at all the same thing....I would have expected you to...
Aug 30, 2012, 10:40 AM
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Higher prices DO directly equate to less consumption, by definition, on every elastic demand curve.
If we can't agree on that basic principle, we're not going to get anywhere.
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All-In [31887]
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I don't dispute the concept, but rather it's application....
Aug 30, 2012, 10:42 AM
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in a vacuum to this point.
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All-In [34105]
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Re: I don't dispute the concept, but rather it's application....
Aug 30, 2012, 10:45 AM
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If you raise prices, consumption declines. That's one factor in the equation, no matter what.
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All-In [31887]
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Then we disagree....because to discuss a move....
Aug 30, 2012, 10:53 AM
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to a consumption tax from an income tax without factoring in the change in disposable income is not discussing the issue at all.
If you think people aren't going to buy as many pairs of jeans because the sales price increased versus prior to the tax change...when they have that same amount more in disposable income, then I think you're flat wrong.
(note that we're not even factoring in the reduction of taxes throughout the supply chain, but that's another discussion all together)
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All-In [34105]
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Re: Then we disagree....because to discuss a move....
Aug 30, 2012, 10:58 AM
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I'm basically waiting for you to admit the basic economic fact that higher prices results in decreased consumption in all but perfectly inelastic demand curves.
I understand, and have admitted elsewhere in this thread, there are other factors to be considered. As there always are. But one of the factors is the basic economic fact about prices and demand, and for some reason you denied that one.
That would be like me denying that higher income increases consumption (not as hard and fast a rule as the demand curve, but I'm willing to say it's a general effect).
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All-In [31887]
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I think you're misapplying the principle.....
Aug 30, 2012, 11:03 AM
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with everything else held constant, sure higher prices can lead to lower consumption in an elastic model.
It's the "with everything else held constant" that is the kicker here.
In the real world, it's very difficult to apply 1 economic principle in a vacuum.
By using your logic, we could apply the principle that an increase in disposable income leads to increased consumption and then conclude that a consumption tax will automatically lead to a double-digit GPD growth immediately.
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All-In [31887]
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*GDP****
Aug 30, 2012, 11:03 AM
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All-In [34105]
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Re: I think you're misapplying the principle.....
Aug 30, 2012, 11:06 AM
[ in reply to I think you're misapplying the principle..... ] |
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No, actually I wasn't drawing any conclusions. I was just saying that as a starting point we had to agree on the basic fact about demand curves.
You had said
A tax is applied across the board and it's not a relation price from one supplier to the next.
Demand curves aren't about competition (I assume that's what you mean by relation price) or suppliers. It's more basic than that. It's just about how much consumers will purchase at different price points.
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All-In [31887]
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It is, in theory, but few items follow a completely....
Aug 30, 2012, 1:45 PM
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elastic model and competition very much is a factor in the total picture.
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All-In [34105]
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Sorry, but you're not making sense.
Aug 30, 2012, 6:07 PM
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In REALITY, higher prices result in less consumption.
Again, you seem to want to deny that, and this conversation is therefore a nonstarter.
Your point about competition makes no sense because any consumption tax would be applicable to all products of the same type, and so there would be no competitive effect. The only effect would be a decrease in consumption depending on the elasticity of the demand curve.
Again, I do not deny that higher incomes will promote more spending. In reality, not in theory. Similarly, higher prices will discourage spending. In reality, not in theory. Economics is a measurable science, and I don't understand why you are denying a fundamental fact about prices and consumption. (Especially because the negative effects of higher taxes on consumption is in other contexts something that conservatives would argue--and correctly so--without hesitation.)
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All-In [31887]
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You're trying to apply a multi-part question to singular....
Aug 30, 2012, 8:28 PM
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theories...you are the one not making any sense.
If you honestly believe that consumption on a gallon of milk that used to cost $1 (I know milk doesn't cost $1) and now costs $1.15 after the consumption tax will decrease given that folks will have roughly the same increase of 15% in their disposable income, then I think you're misapplying economic theory.
We've beat this horse to death. We don't agree and I respect your right to be wrong
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All-In [34105]
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No, I'm not.
Aug 30, 2012, 8:31 PM
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I'm saying that you can't discuss a multifactor issue without agreeing to the factors in play.
One factor is that higher prices results in decreased consumption.
You appeared earlier to dispute the truth of that factor, as I've already pointed out.
I repeatedly asked you to admit that, in reality, higher prices results in decreased consumption.
The horse being beat to death is your avoidance of a simple admission or denial of that simple proposition.
Once you admit the factor, we'd likely agree at least to come extent on the multifactor application.
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All-In [31887]
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Dis you see this....
Aug 30, 2012, 8:52 PM
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http://www.tigernet.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=12666411
about 10 posts ago?
I'm not arguing on the economic principle, but rather how you're applying it.
Practical economics is never cut and dry (hence the old 1-arm economist joke).
Bottom line, I don't believe a change to a consumption tax will reduce consumption...that's what we're discussion. PED is not the ONLY economic principle
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All-In [34105]
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Maybe you can wrap your head around this.
Aug 30, 2012, 9:38 PM
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Which of the following would result in LESS consumption:
A) Reducing income taxes and raising sales taxes.
or
B) Reducing income taxes and maintaining current sales taxes.
I am arguing that (A) is the right answer.
If you also choose (A), then we agree on an underlying factor relevant to the issue.
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All-TigerNet [11208]
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How much is the "higher price" going to impact
Aug 30, 2012, 10:44 AM
[ in reply to Re: Not at all the same thing....I would have expected you to... ] |
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the bottom line?
What we're talking about is offsetting income taxes with consumption taxes.
I don't think that it would drive individual prices up so much as to discourage said consumption.
I could be wrong.
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All-In [34105]
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Re: How much is the "higher price" going to impact
Aug 30, 2012, 10:47 AM
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I agree that there's an unanswered question there, and I don't know the answer either.
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CU Medallion [56062]
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Nope!
Aug 30, 2012, 10:31 AM
[ in reply to Got some data to back that up? We have consumption.... ] |
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I'm just using basic common sense. Government wants to encourage home ownership, it provides a mortgage interest tax deduction. Al Gore wants to discourage fuel consumption, he favors upping the gas tax. Republicans oppose raising cap gains taxes because it'll discourage investment.
If lowering taxes encourages behavior and raising taxes discourages behavior, then what happens when you tax consumption? And what impact would that have on the economy when our GDP is driven by consumer spending?
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All-In [31887]
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You're forgetting one small (huge) detail....
Aug 30, 2012, 10:48 AM
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there would be no income/payroll taxes.
The point is not simply that prices drive consumption. There is also relativity.
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Orange Blooded [2425]
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I guess you refuse to buy food, water, shelter,
Aug 30, 2012, 10:18 AM
[ in reply to Taxing consumption discourages consumption. ] |
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transportation, computers, ipads, smartphones, etc because its taxed?
Did you wake up under the bridge and walk to the library to use their computer and internet connection?
Allowing people to keep more of the money they actually earn allows them to actually spend it and promotes economic growth.
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All-In [34105]
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What state do you live in that taxes food and water?
Aug 30, 2012, 10:20 AM
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You're hilarious.
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Orange Blooded [2425]
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What state do you live in that doesn't have a grocery store***
Aug 30, 2012, 10:22 AM
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All-In [34105]
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Food is non-taxable in my state (and probably all of them)***
Aug 30, 2012, 10:27 AM
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Re: What state do you live in that taxes food and water?
Aug 30, 2012, 10:28 AM
[ in reply to What state do you live in that taxes food and water? ] |
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I pay sales tax on every single bit of food I buy!! and as for tax on water; U just have to be kidding!!! city taxes are out of sight!!!!
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All-In [34105]
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What state do you live in that taxes food and water?***
Aug 30, 2012, 10:41 AM
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Head Coach [761]
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Re: Taxing consumption discourages consumption.
Aug 30, 2012, 11:52 AM
[ in reply to Taxing consumption discourages consumption. ] |
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So under this same thinking, raising taxes on rich job creators discourages job creation? Is this what you mean because the Left thinks that raising taxes will create jobs.
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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Orange Blooded [2425]
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whats not "fair"***
Aug 30, 2012, 10:03 AM
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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come on man, get real. everyone needs food, water, a place
Aug 30, 2012, 10:06 AM
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to live, clothes, a car. once poor folks have bought those things and paid the consumption tax, they're spent. rich folks hardly blink at paying the consumption tax on those things. then get to play with the rest of it. no, a progressive tax is fair, within reason.
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All-In [31887]
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A lot of the plans out there give a rebate to everyone....
Aug 30, 2012, 10:09 AM
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under the poverty line.
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Orange Blooded [2425]
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A progressive tax by definition is the antithesis of fair
Aug 30, 2012, 10:10 AM
[ in reply to come on man, get real. everyone needs food, water, a place ] |
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Secondly, a consumption tax in no way prohibits people of any social status from acquiring said things.
Also, you do realize no tax is paid on items purchased with federal benefits? i.e. Food stamps
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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when one person makes $25K and one person makes $100K,
Aug 30, 2012, 10:19 AM
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the latter has far more dispoable income. i understand your point and how a flat tax would work. but i think that those blessed with a higher income should be willing to pay a little more. that's all i'm saying.
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All-In [28802]
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All-In [34105]
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No it's not.
Aug 30, 2012, 11:15 AM
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I consume less as a percentage of my income now than I did when I had less money. When you have less money you tend to spend a larger percent of your income, while higher income people can invest and save more.
It's not progressive, let along highly progressive.
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All-In [28802]
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All-In [34105]
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Re: depends what you're talking about
Aug 30, 2012, 6:11 PM
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I have no problem whatsoever with a progressive consumption tax. Never heard of it before you linked that article, but yes, let's do it!
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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100% rate at the top. W00t! That'll go over well.***
Aug 30, 2012, 6:33 PM
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All-In [34105]
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But it's not an income tax, so it's a little different.
Aug 30, 2012, 6:46 PM
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Basically, goods will cost twice as much after a certain amount of spending.
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All-In [26968]
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Co-sign.
Aug 30, 2012, 9:54 AM
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That can both take their stupid platforms and pep rallies and stuff it.
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All-In [26968]
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Republicans: Obama wants you to depend on the government
Aug 30, 2012, 9:59 AM
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So vote for us, and we'll save you!
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CU Medallion [56062]
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Re: Republicans: Obama wants you to depend on the government
Aug 30, 2012, 10:06 AM
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All-In [28802]
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somebody has to repeal all of that stuff...
Aug 30, 2012, 12:07 PM
[ in reply to Republicans: Obama wants you to depend on the government ] |
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and, the truth is, we do have to depend on the government for some things, but we shouldn't depend on the government for everything we might need. That's why Republicans need to be sure to talk about "limited" government rather than an abstract notion of a "small" government. You can't be both a political party that hopes to hold power and completely anti-government. That's why the anarchist Occupy movement fell into chaos so quickly.
You also might consider that, after years of following the liberal model of the welfare state, the civil institutions that ought to take care of people are either badly eroded or completely gone. So can we expect them just to come back if the government completely steps out of the way? "Compassionate conservatism" and Cameron's "big society" have proposed to strengthen civil institutions through partnership with the government, in hopes that the government can eventually get out of the welfare business, or at least can shrink its responsibilities. It's a more gradual model of drawing back the government, but it's also the more humane (and the more "small c" conservative) approach.
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Legend [18334]
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Sin 1/X
Aug 30, 2012, 8:36 PM
[ in reply to Co-sign. ] |
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try it.
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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Orange Blooded [2519]
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FairTax, FairTax, FairTax, FairTax.***
Aug 30, 2012, 10:15 AM
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Oculus Spirit [78865]
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+1***
Aug 30, 2012, 10:19 AM
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All-In [34105]
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Oculus Spirit [78865]
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uh, no it's not
Aug 30, 2012, 11:12 AM
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BEWM
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All-In [28802]
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one reason I think the GOP should push pro-family tax policy
Aug 30, 2012, 11:13 AM
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It could have the effect of raising taxes overrally, but it would be tax policy favorable to middle class families.
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Oculus Spirit [97703]
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Everyone above the poverty level pays 18%
Aug 30, 2012, 12:38 PM
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Problem solved. Class warfare ended. Everyone WORKS the same number of hours, and expends the SAME portion of their labor (regardless of their pay rate). The rich will still pay more. Everyone has skin in the game, and politicians then have to resort to representing everyone.
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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would that create a class of people (those who would make
Aug 30, 2012, 1:32 PM
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enough to just get them out of poverty level) who would do better to make a little less than to try a little harder and pay that tax rate?
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All-In [31887]
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You only pay the money on the amount over the poverty....
Aug 30, 2012, 1:49 PM
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level in most flat tax plans I've seen.
For example, if the poverty line was $20k and you make $25k, you only pay 18% of $5k.
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Oculus Spirit [97703]
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Yep.***
Aug 30, 2012, 2:47 PM
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CU Guru [1730]
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Re: wake me up when i'm not one of the people in the middle
Aug 30, 2012, 11:30 PM
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vote "I"
the country was not built on a two party system. We need to have a legitimate third party.
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