Replies: 56
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Oculus Spirit [97719]
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I seem to recall a torrent of hatred for GWB
Jul 25, 2019, 11:46 AM
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You know, the kinder, gentler republican. Mr. New Tone. About as passive in character as Trump is aggressive.
I'm not biting.
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110%er [5508]
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110%er [5508]
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110%er [5508]
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All-In [26968]
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I'd say the President's such words and actions are more of a
Jul 25, 2019, 11:47 AM
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projection of attitudes the voters already had, which is why he won the election. He has certainly made it more public and has failed to lead by example to reverse it.
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Oculus Spirit [97719]
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Take your most moderate 2016 GOP candidate
Jul 25, 2019, 12:05 PM
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Who was it? John Kasich? Maybe Graham?
Put them as the primary winner and in the whitehouse and there'd be just as much anger and hatred from the left. Any GOP candidate will result in 4 years (or 8) of hatred and animosity. GWB was a RWN according to the news. He was attacked mercilessly every day, just as Trump is.
Ahhhh, but then we got Obama. And all was well. We had peace and prosperity. He was an astute statesman. He saved the economy. All was well in the world. During his tenure MSNBC took a Valium and chilled. All was well with the world. Gravitas was back in Washington. All that was left was to hound the GOP congressional leaders. Then when Obama had a dem congress all they had left was to attack whoever opposed Obamacare. The dems never once got angry over Obama's ignoring illegal immigrants, or failure to raise the minimum wage, or anything else. Nor did Speaker Pelosi catch ANY heat for Obamacare's failure, or the lack of addressing issues that were important to democrats. Nope. All was well.
Trump was the only candidate to fight back. Meet anger and hatred with equal anger and hatred. So he won. And he will win again just as Bush did despite the anger and hatred.
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Heisman Winner [137937]
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This is a terrible, biased take.
Jul 25, 2019, 12:14 PM
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Graham or Kasich would get the same amount of hate. Right.
Trump is just fighting back. Right.
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Oculus Spirit [97719]
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Yes.
Jul 25, 2019, 12:24 PM
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They would.
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Lot o points [155907]
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Heisman Winner [137937]
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Oh, well...that settles it.
Jul 25, 2019, 12:38 PM
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Obviously, this is a perfectly subjective, hypothetical scenario, so either of us CAN be right if we really want to be. But do you really believe anybody in US political history has been as divisive and combative as Donald Trump? Comparing Lindsey Graham to Donald Trump is laughable, and we're both quite aware of it.
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Lot o points [155907]
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My larger point is that this new reverence and respect that
Jul 25, 2019, 12:49 PM
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the left now affords past Pub Presidents is a total joke. They were hated when they were in office and had every manner of evil ascribed to them, and it really ramped up with W. To be completely fair, the right certainly continued the trend with Obama, but for whatever sociological reason, the left has always had more protesters/boycotters/marchers than the right, so they make a lot more noise.
I think Tiggity's point is that there should be zero expectation that Trump has somehow lowered the bar so much that we can expect future "mainstream" Pub Presidents to be treated with newfound respect. When he's out of office, it'll be SSDD.
Fewer and fewer Americans respect our leaders and their offices (and I'm talking all ideological stripes), and that is a generational trend that started before Trump and isn't going to reverse after him. I'm not saying leaders deserve our respect, and they quite often don't earn it, but their offices do.
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All-In [34587]
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absolutely hated...even Romney was vilified. Mccain was a
Jul 25, 2019, 1:00 PM
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racist...etc
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Oculus Spirit [97719]
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Sociological reasons...I have a theory on why
Jul 25, 2019, 1:33 PM
[ in reply to My larger point is that this new reverence and respect that ] |
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Conservatives are out working for a living. Going to church. Spending time with their family. But most importantly, most do not rely on or depend on government. They see themselves as being the most important factor in their success or failure in life. So whoever is president is not as important for people who are self sufficient. It is literally do or die though for those who are not. That's why democrats have always been more attuned to, and interested in politics and government. They see it as an answer and a solution, and not a problem. Go back to Reagan when he said government was the problem and not the solution. Heck, even Trump has not stepped that far right. ALL politicians want you to think government is the solution.
And the media wants you to think it's do or die when it comes to politics, so you'll tune in. The weather channel.....deer gawd. My dad watches that all day and thinks Armageddon is upon us. The weather channel wants you to think the weather is important, and that disasters are happening everywhere. So much so they fake being blown around in hurricanes. And reporters paddle canoes in 4 inches of water while people stroll by.
No politician (either party) will ever remind people that they control their success or failure more than any politician. No politician will ever remind you that people working, in the private sector economy, wholly fund the government. The government doesn't have a penny to spend that it doesn't take from someone working, being self sufficient, in the private sector economy. With debt, they will just print it and make your children pay for it. Still, it's money that will have to be paid back, through taxes, from someone being self sufficient.
On a broader measure, all our problems today can be traced to the fact that we're now for all intents and purposes, a democracy. A federal democracy. We are no longer a democratic republic, as founded. And our founding fathers knew what fate awaits a federal democracy in a nation as large and diverse as our own. As a pure republic, we fail. As a pure democracy, we fail. As a democratic republic, if we keep that balance, we thrive. The more Washington controls across all 50 states, the more animosity there will be. The more people beholden to Washington for their livelihood, the more animosity there will be.
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Heisman Winner [137937]
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"Conservatives work hard and go to church and don't
Jul 25, 2019, 2:57 PM
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depend on the government!"
How many links would you like showing the disproportionate number of Trump/GOP/white voters affected by changes to social programs like food assistance, ACA, etc.?
It's a strange fallacy that has been carefully constructed and curated over time, to the point that millions of poor trailer-dwelling Republican voters (the ones that do actually vote) even believe it.
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CU Guru [1878]
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Re: "Conservatives work hard and go to church and don't
Jul 26, 2019, 11:02 AM
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Conservatives REALLY hate when you point out that Republicans states overwhelmingly use more social welfare programs than blue states.
It's not even close, either.
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Hall of Famer [20540]
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Re: My larger point is that this new reverence and respect that
Jul 25, 2019, 2:02 PM
[ in reply to My larger point is that this new reverence and respect that ] |
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One thing to consider is that the Republicans represent the status quo...and they also represent established power and big business.
The left tends - or is supposed to, anyhow (a lot of them are careerists disguised as Men/Women of the People), to represent the common man, the little man, and the disenfranchised, as well as the idea of progress.
This is exactly why the press skews left. Intellectualism by its nature is progressive and press guys are nosey nerds who wanna know stuff. Also, few of them except the big-time anchors make much money, and secondly, because established power and big business can protect its own interests; the common man often cannot, and his only real strength is his vote. In order to know what's in his best interests, he has to be informed. In any democracy this creates a natural vacuum that the press fills.
This is why "right-wing" media is ultimately doomed to fail over the long-term (or kill the "mainstream" media entirely) because it's basically indistinguishable from state media and can become so very quickly, as Fox essentially has with Trump. Almost by definition, right-wing media doesn't speak truth to or about power, it rubberstamps the actions of the powerful, and if the powerful aren't called to account for their actions by a free press, they pretty much act...well, exactly like the Trump Administration is acting now - unaccountable, incompetent, and utterly without scruple or conscience, and Fox cleans it all up for them.
It just doesn't work...well, not in an actual democracy, it doesn't, which America is having some...issues with, right now. Again, the powerful and the rich don't need their own networks rubberstamping their actions; history tells us again and again and again what they need is accountability, or they get up to stuff. So the mainstream press has to lean left, and by their very affiliation any Republican politician - who again, represents both the status quo and established power - is going to have a harder time convincing the press that they deserve to be trusted. You mention W...well, Dubya really did not help himself by resuming his father's war on false pretenses (the WMD's that ended up not existing.)
Of course, it's worth remembering that a Democrat who repeatedly betrays the public trust can wind up on the wrong side of the press as well. Bill Clinton certainly did; he complained bitterly and often about how mean the press was to him. (Well, Bill, that happens when you're persistently shady!) And it's also been established time and time again that Democrats can't afford to be seen to be the bad guy like a Republican can. Bill survived, ultimately, because he shucked and jived and convinced enough people with that aw-shucks smile of his that under it all he really was a good guy; Hillary and her cold-eyed stare never invited that same forgiveness. It's why I thought the Dems were insane to run Hillary and deserved to lose that election; she inherited all that Clinton baggage (which included both a press and public that viewed her as more than a little shady) and she didn't exactly have the warm sunny personality her husband did to make up for it on the other end.
She paid for it, too. The press was entirely too willing to listen when that whole Russiagate thing happened, and considering Trump basically won on the strength of about 50,000 key votes in swing states, it'd be hard for anybody to claim it didn't ultimately cost her the election.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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I don't think he's comparing Graham to Trump, he's
Jul 25, 2019, 12:53 PM
[ in reply to Oh, well...that settles it. ] |
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illustrating that Republicans typically receive similar amounts of hate and horrible accusations, whether they're Mr. Rogers or satan himself. Has there been a Republican presidential candidate in the last 30 years who hasn't been labeled a racist?
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Heisman Winner [137937]
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Let me ask you this:
Jul 25, 2019, 12:56 PM
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was Obama racist?
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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I wouldn't say so, but given the whole Rev Wright
Jul 25, 2019, 1:05 PM
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circumstance, I could see where people might wonder. He certainly got more of a pass on that than any Republican would.
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Heisman Winner [137937]
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So the whole Mike Brown/Ferguson/cop thing...
Jul 25, 2019, 1:16 PM
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not racist?
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Where are we moving the goal posts to here?***
Jul 25, 2019, 1:19 PM
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Heisman Winner [137937]
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I don't know. What were the goalposts?
Jul 25, 2019, 1:20 PM
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I was just asking if Obama was racist. A whole lot of people called him one.
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Heisman Winner [137937]
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I'm just pointing out that "racist!" isn't an exclusive
Jul 25, 2019, 1:21 PM
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battlecry of the left.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Not totally, but pretty close.***
Jul 25, 2019, 1:25 PM
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Napolitano is a Republican Fox News Analyst.***
Jul 25, 2019, 1:40 PM
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Lot o points [155907]
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he’s a dyed in the wool Libertarian.
Jul 25, 2019, 2:50 PM
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Don’t let yourself get overburdened with facts though
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Thanks for the correction. It has no bearing on the point
Jul 25, 2019, 2:58 PM
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which is that he is not a Democrat calling out the presidents actions and tying them to racism, he is a Libertarian working for a rightwing organization.
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110%er [9174]
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Look, Shrimp. You just peeled and de-veined in one motion.
Jul 25, 2019, 7:20 PM
[ in reply to Oh, well...that settles it. ] |
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With that comeback: you are taking water there, kid.
Millions of idiots walk this country. Why do you insist being another of the masses?
-Doc
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Look, Shrimp. You just peeled and de-veined in one motion.
Jul 25, 2019, 8:09 PM
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You calling someone an idiot is so rich.
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110%er [9174]
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Quit acting like I just slit
Jul 25, 2019, 10:25 PM
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the throats of all eight of your mama house cats kittens...
I've challenged your pansyass on numerous occasions on this board to state proudly the name of your selected Democratic Candidate for President, why you support that person and what that person will do to make a difference. You've run with your tail between your legs.
How does it feel that your opinions are revered, on this board, as the period after the Dr. on the Dr. Pepper can?
-Tesla
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All-In [26968]
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All-TigerNet [11198]
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You really think that's true, Tiggity?
Jul 25, 2019, 12:56 PM
[ in reply to Take your most moderate 2016 GOP candidate ] |
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I think a Kasich or pre-Trump Graham handles themselves much better in the oval office than Trump. I certainly would've voted for either of those guys over Hillary. Those candidates had/have values that are more in line with everyday Americans, they wouldn't go rallying around the country spouting racist bullshid to churn up a low moral base, and they are just not a purposely polarizing. They're not going to demonize the media using phrases like "enemy of the people". That's dictator shid, man.
On a seesaw scale of respect, Dubya had a ton more from the American people and the real press, the left cable newsbats not withstanding. He surrounded himself with smart people that had morals(might question Cheney and Rove, but thats water under the bridge) the Powell, Rice, Gates, and to a lesser extent Rumsfeld were competent purposed professionals. And I think Dubya did a solid job as a leader taking us through one of the most difficult times in the US in the last century. So I don't think the Dubya hate was nearly as extreme.
Obama got plenty of hate because he was black and thats just the truth. Living in the south, I could take a poll from neighbors and family and discern that. In reality, he was a well-principled family guy, a good example of what a father, husband, and leader should be. Now, I don't think he was very good at being president when he got there, not enough experience. But he learned, genuinely sought ways to provide solutions to problems in the US. He and Dubya both were humbled by the office they held and respected the personal values that it required.
And that is what is different now. Trump is bent on creating chaos anywhere and everywhere, he shows no morals, no personal values, and no character. He is not interested in learning how to get better at his job and serve the American people, and generally not interested in anyone to advise him, the literal reason he has a cabinet. People try to cover it up by saying he's a "non-traditional" president, but that's not the truth. Trump is a bad person that does not have the moral or ethical equipment to do this job. Just taking him as a businessman, would you do a business deal with him? I wouldn't. If you had a daughter, would you want her to date/marry someone like him?
Thats the difference.
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Lot o points [155907]
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1st paragraph: Of course they'd handle themselves better.
Jul 25, 2019, 1:00 PM
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They'd still be given every nasty label (bigot, racist, sexist, homophobe) in the book and accused of evil underhanded motives for every action they took. They'd just be so much more classier in the process.
Paragraph 2: Serious credibility drop for pretending Bush got a modicum of respect from the left after the shock of 9/11 wore off.
Paragraph 3: All remaining credibility completely disappears for implying that all "hate" and disagreements stemmed from racism. That's just lazy.
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All-TigerNet [11198]
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Re: 1st paragraph: Of course they'd handle themselves better.
Jul 25, 2019, 1:30 PM
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They'd still be given every nasty label (bigot, racist, sexist, homophobe) in the book and accused of evil underhanded motives for every action they took. They'd just be so much more classier in the process.
But does the label really fit if those guys aren't ginning up the kind of hate that Trump does? If their actions don't warrant it, no credibility to the label.
Paragraph 2: Serious credibility drop for pretending Bush got a modicum of respect from the left after the shock of 9/11 wore off.
Bush took the heat for the Iraq war and he took it like a leader, we went on the intelligence we had and it was a bad decision. You didn't see Dubya throwing anybody under the bus for it, he was principled and purposed. He certainly didn't go off on the lefty cable news calling them "enemy of the people". It's different now, you have to admit.
Paragraph 3: All remaining credibility completely disappears for implying that all "hate" and disagreements stemmed from racism. That's just lazy.
Did I say or imply all hate, I said "plenty" of hate. And conservative political entertainment media just murdered the guy any time they could on any subject. Tucker Carlson didn't care if Obama was black, but he could bang on the guy all day long and devalue his character...which plays nicely to the southern crowd you and I grew up with.
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Hall of Famer [20540]
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Re: Take your most moderate 2016 GOP candidate
Jul 25, 2019, 1:30 PM
[ in reply to Take your most moderate 2016 GOP candidate ] |
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Just asking, how did Obamacare "fail?"
It's not great, but it's a lot better than what we had, which was either you got insurance from your employer, or you did that ruinous COBRA for about a bazillion dollars a year if you got fired, which of course you couldn't because you had just been fired and you were about to be broke. Or you went without. And if you broke your arm or needed medication, well, you were just effed.
I can count two different occasions Obamacare really helped my family out. Once was when we were trying to get into a software start-up that couldn't afford to pay their employees benefits, and Obamacare allowed us to chase that without working 25 hours at Home Depot or some such, which was the only other way you could remotely get insurance. The other was very recently, when I was out of work for an extended period owing to illness and surgery and my wife lost her job; without that my entire family would have been uninsured.
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Legend [16821]
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ACA was FAR from perfect...and if you don't think
Jul 25, 2019, 2:16 PM
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It didn't have an adverse effect, I don't know what to tell you. When premiums jump 4 to 6X in the span of a couple of years, something's wrong. Very. Wrong.
Does it plusses...yup, it does and for some...SOME of the reasons you noted. But...like far too much that gov't touches, it largely transferred issues one segment of society had to another. Transference, isn't governing...it's passing the f'ing buck.
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Standout [345]
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Re: ACA was FAR from perfect...and if you don't think
Jul 25, 2019, 5:52 PM
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The problem is that was already happening before the ACA. Hence why something had to be tried. Instead of going back and working it to get things right we ended up with the partisan mess we have now where the law is still in place but has been stripped of needed funding to operate correctly.
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Legend [16821]
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In that event...if ACA isn't being
Jul 25, 2019, 6:20 PM
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Operated/funded, per law, why is it still in place? Since when do 'laws' remain on the books to be 'facilitated' by non-expressed (written) guidelines? Or, does that take too long to read, before voting? (Right, Nancy?)
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Standout [345]
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Re: In that event...if ACA isn't being
Jul 26, 2019, 8:43 AM
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Pubs tried to repeal it and couldn't get the votes so Trump used EOs to defund what parts he could and with the various court challenges managed to get the mandate repealed. Part of keeping it affordable was the money from that mandate so now it can't support itself as needed and prices go up even more. Even before Trump it needed fixing but it was still better than what we had before for most people.
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All-In [38514]
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The right didn't hate Obama or Clinton as much as the left
Jul 25, 2019, 1:37 PM
[ in reply to Take your most moderate 2016 GOP candidate ] |
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hated Bush? Seems like it's stepped up a level with each president.
But Trump has really increased it through his own actions. Just take his name calling and attacks on his own party during the primaries. He's the won that has drawn the lines of him (and those 100% loyal to him) versus everyone else.
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Lot o points [155907]
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Whatever criticism the right had of Clinton, and there was
Jul 25, 2019, 3:05 PM
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Plenty, I generally think more pubs than not would have been happy to sit down and have had a beer with Clinton.
In my lifetime, Bush was the first I remember where dislike and disagreement become sooo personal and transformed into a fairly deep-seeded hatred of the man, and he was generally likable!
I truly feel that much of the pushback on Obama was from a large swath of the right who didn’t like how W was treated and decided to retaliate. As much as the left would disagree, I think that represents a much bigger contingent of Obama-haters than those who disliked the man due to conscious or unconscious racial bias.
Now it’s off the charts with Trump, and compounding it is the fact that he seems to have found a way to successfully leverage the dynamic, while Hillary played right into it with the deplorable crap, just like Dusty Rhodes playing against Ric Flair’s fans.
I’ll telll you this....I don’t see this childish seesaw effect stopping, so fully expect the next Dem pres to just get treated like straight up ####### by the right...it’ll be plain as day and they won’t even try to hide it. I hope I’m wrong, because we need to turn the ship back towards some common decency, but I bet I’m right.
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Lot o points [155907]
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and To clarify since I don’t have edit function
Jul 25, 2019, 3:05 PM
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I’m talking about Bill in the first part of that post.
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All-In [38514]
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I agree, except...
Jul 25, 2019, 3:15 PM
[ in reply to Whatever criticism the right had of Clinton, and there was ] |
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Hilary's deplorable comment was once, Trump was tossing insults on a daily basis. I agree that the left would have hated anyone who was elected, but Trump has done a lot to inspire that hate. And not just from the left, the Bush's hate him. Trump stepped into that hate and amplified it for his own gain. He attacks everyone and then claims to be the victim.
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Standout [347]
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No, that’s not true at all.
Jul 25, 2019, 5:17 PM
[ in reply to Take your most moderate 2016 GOP candidate ] |
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A lot of the hate from the left is because of the person that trump is, not because he’s a republican. Obviously there will always be some attacking by each side to the opposing party. But the reason the left is so passionately against trump is because of the scumbag and awful person that he is, not because he is of the opposing party.
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Oculus Spirit [83119]
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You’re completely wrong here. If you don’t think Trump has
Jul 25, 2019, 8:21 PM
[ in reply to Take your most moderate 2016 GOP candidate ] |
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inspired much more hatred because of dissing a dead war hero, or calling candidates wives ugly or declaring war on most of the press Corp or making fun of handicapped people or Tweeting dumb shlt over and over, you must live on a different planet.
Sure Bush had a lot of hatred from the fringe left: “Bush lied people died,” but it pales in comparison to this ####.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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so honestly...
Jul 25, 2019, 12:12 PM
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We’ve been moving to this point for quite some time. I quit watching national “news” a few years back - network, FOX, CNN, etc. It is no longer news just wall to wall op ed. Everything is presented with an agenda and framed to how they want you to interpret events. I can’t stomach any of it.
I’ll watch local news and listen to some libertarian shows to know what’s going on. I’m just tired of the garbage being called news.
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Heisman Winner [111581]
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Re: so honestly...
Jul 25, 2019, 12:25 PM
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it is a business, fox and CNN sell advertising, and they are constrained by their advertisers and BOD on what they a can and can not report.
Fox made a fortune with wall to wall, negative criticism of Obama, just as CNN is with Trump. They are serving a market demand that brings in the most dollars.
and as you said, it is not news.
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Heisman Winner [119709]
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I wouldnt say CNN is making a fortune
Jul 25, 2019, 1:31 PM
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their ratings suxxors
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Fox's Napolitano: Trump Makes America Hate Again.
Jul 25, 2019, 12:30 PM
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Yeah, but it all sure has detracted from the the last scandal he was the author of. You remember, the "Squad hates America"?
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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There will always be a new scandal as long as this guy
Jul 25, 2019, 12:44 PM
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is in the White House. It's his MO.
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All-TigerNet [11198]
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It's like lying down on a bed of nails.
Jul 25, 2019, 4:46 PM
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One or two scandals(nails) and those fuggers will stab the crap outta you. Lay an entire foundation of scandals(nails) and you can lie down nice and comfortable right on top.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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so, how are your blue balls doing?
Jul 25, 2019, 12:50 PM
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you have almost spluged about 1000 times over the past 2 yrs thinking Trump was going to jail. Them balls gotta be the size of a weather balloon by now.
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Legend [16821]
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If social platforms and the media existed at
Jul 25, 2019, 1:37 PM
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Today's levels in 1902, Teddy Roosevelt's and Trump's names would be interchangeable...the rhetoric would be no different. And in 1962, Bill Clinton's trysts wouldn't move the needle compared to JFK.
Face it...people are just more effective at 'yelling' than they've ever been...and many do so without even thinking or, worse, educating themselves just a bit, so there can be dialogue. Nope...it's 'my way or the highway'...'love it or leave it'...'embrace or be a racist'...and on...and on...and on...
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110%er [9174]
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110%er [6101]
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Napolitano is a hack, Fox sux, you are devoid of facts.
Jul 25, 2019, 8:49 PM
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Other than that, everything’s great
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