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Legend [15212]
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Lamar Jackson has 1 win against a team with a winning record.
Dec 8, 2016, 1:49 PM
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How is it possible to have a Heisman winner with only 1 win against a team over .500?
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All-TigerNet [11860]
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Charlotte and FSU are the same school?***
Dec 8, 2016, 1:50 PM
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Legend [15212]
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Re: Charlotte and FSU are the same school?***
Dec 8, 2016, 1:52 PM
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Charlotte?
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CU Medallion [60200]
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Re: Charlotte was 4-8
Dec 8, 2016, 1:54 PM
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NCST, Wake, and BC were 6-6
everybody else was < .500
except FSU
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: Charlotte was 4-8
Dec 8, 2016, 2:06 PM
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What the hell you talking about dude? Look at their schedule. I'm not saying it was hard but they played 4 teams with winning record. Get your facts straight homie.
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Scout Team [181]
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Re: Charlotte was 4-8
Dec 8, 2016, 2:09 PM
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He said wins.. not games played.
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: Charlotte was 4-8
Dec 8, 2016, 2:12 PM
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Holy sheet balls you are right and I stand corrected. My bad fellas. I think I just had a rush of testosterone go through me.
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Scout Team [181]
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Re: Charlotte was 4-8
Dec 8, 2016, 2:13 PM
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Happens. I'm give been guilty of it myself. I didn't TD you.
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: Charlotte was 4-8
Dec 8, 2016, 2:32 PM
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No problem. Di served it regardless who TD me.
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: Charlotte was 4-8
Dec 8, 2016, 2:32 PM
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I deserved*
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Commissioner [963]
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Orange Blooded [2111]
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Orange Blooded [2815]
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All-TigerNet [13219]
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THAT is a insane STAT.
Dec 8, 2016, 1:51 PM
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I would have guessed he had at least 4-5. WOW!
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: Lamar Jackson has 1 win against a team with a winning record.
Dec 8, 2016, 2:05 PM
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Wrong. Geesh do you do any research before posting?
Clemson
Houston
Florida State
Kentucky
There's four from my count.
Smh.
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Trainer [27]
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Re: Lamar Jackson has 1 win against a team with a winning record.
Dec 8, 2016, 2:14 PM
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The OP said '1 win against a team with a winning record'. Read the post.
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All-TigerNet [14488]
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Scout Team [181]
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Re: ^^^^^LOL
Dec 8, 2016, 4:18 PM
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I'd love to see comparison of lamars declining stats once refs actually started calling holding penalties on Louisville. 100 plays against Clemson and not a single hold? Get real...
But according to Louisville fan chiming in, their OL was horrible.
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110%er [7718]
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All-TigerNet [12233]
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Re: Lamar Jackson has 1 win against a team with a winning record.
Dec 8, 2016, 2:24 PM
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I posted this several weeks ago...
1. Lamar Jackson has trended downward as we hit Championship November. He peaked against FSU, was strong through mid-October, and has been trending downward ever since nose diving the last two weeks. A Heisman quality QB does not trend down during the grind season - they trend up like DW4.
2. Lamar Jackson (and Louisville) has beaten 1 team with a winning record... Let that sink in for a moment. Other than FSU, Louisville has feasted on lessor competition (3 teams with even records, 5 teams with losing records) so it is no wonder Jackson put up crazy highlight reel runs against these teams. Other than FSU, Louisville lost every time they played a team with a winning record. Heisman quality QB's find ways to win - Lamar Jackson can't seem to beat teams with a pulse - definitely not the sign of a Heisman quality QB.
3. Jackson is a 57% passer.... Essentially you can flip a coin and almost have as much accuracy as to whether Lamar Jackson will complete a pass or not. I don't know if there has ever been a Heisman QB with this low of a pass completion percentage.
4. DW4 is a winner and exhibits the qualities of a Heisman QB. DW4 has led his team to 11 victories against stiffer competition. He has beaten 5 teams with a winning record (3 of which ranked), 4 teams with even records, and 2 teams with losing records. DW4 knows how to lead a team to victory and is playing his best football during the grind season - exactly what a Heisman quality QB does.
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Mascot [21]
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Re: Lamar Jackson has 1 win against a team with a winning record.
Dec 8, 2016, 2:37 PM
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Lamar has a fraction of the talent around him that Watson has. 27% of Lamar's incompletions were from dropped passes. If just half of those drops were caught his numbers would be even more ridiculous.
Also, Louisville has arguably the worst offensive line in FBS and yet Lamar's stats are still off the charts. He's the best player in college football and deserves the Heisman.
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CU Medallion [60200]
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and Watson's weren't? They dropped 8 against Auburn
Dec 8, 2016, 2:59 PM
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and at least that many vs Troy. First 2 games are the only games I know off the top of my head. The first half of the season was pathetic. They DID thankfully get better the second half.
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CU Medallion [56597]
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Plus Watson's interceptions that were really on the receiver***
Dec 8, 2016, 3:11 PM
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110%er [9087]
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Re: Lamar Jackson has 1 win against a team with a winning record.
Dec 8, 2016, 3:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: Lamar Jackson has 1 win against a team with a winning record. ] |
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I'd guess that most QB's can chalk up 25% or so of their incompletions to drops. That's no excuse, which is why it is still a QB stat - it hits all QBs pretty much equally.
Yes, his NUMBERS are great, when looked at alone. But put in context of the teams he's played, their records, and their overall performance, he just doesn't compare.
No one is saying he isn't a really good quarterback and athlete - he definitely is. But is he the best in the nation? And, around these parts, is he better than Watson? I just don't see how you can argue that when you look at all the numbers of the two QBs in context. And to throw in there that DW has done the same basic thing two years in a row, that speaks to his consistency and talent. His performance isn't just a flash in the pan. It's who he is and what he does.
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All-TigerNet [12233]
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Re: Lamar Jackson has 1 win against a team with a winning record.
Dec 8, 2016, 3:13 PM
[ in reply to Re: Lamar Jackson has 1 win against a team with a winning record. ] |
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Nope...not even close. If you want to play the "what if" game, I could make the argument that half of DW4's interceptions were not his fault (tipped balls by receivers, receivers running wrong routes etc...). Look at the drops that Clemson's receivers had the first 4 games - those alone drove DW4's stats down.
The fact is that Lamar Jackson is an extremely athletic player, great runner, that has incredible scrambling ability. However, as an offensive leader, passing and decision making QB he is very pedestrian. I have no doubt Jackson will win the Heisman - he has been the popular choice all year and the Heisman is a popularity contest.
I look at it this way - a Heisman QB is the kind of guy I would choose to lead my team with a game on the line with less than 2 minutes left in the 4th quarter. DW4 is that kind of QB, he will find a way to get it done. Lamar Jackson wouldn't even make my top 3 in that situation...
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Mascot [21]
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Re: Lamar Jackson has 1 win against a team with a winning record.
Dec 8, 2016, 4:03 PM
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And you think that half of Lamar's interceptions weren't from tipped passes/receivers running the wrong routes?
Lamar wasn't the one who scheduled our opponents so knocking him for SOS is completely and utterly absurd. He played the teams he was given and was outstanding all season even after his numbers dipped the last few games.
Also consider that he rushed for 1000 more yards despite taking 27 more sacks. The fact is that Watson had WAY more talent around him which allowed him to rely on his teammates more to move the ball. Lamar broke a couple dozen records with a horrid offensive line and receivers who couldn't catch a cold.
Take Lamar off Louisville and we probably don't even make a bowl. Take Watson off Clemson and you guys still win 10 games. That's why Lamar deserves the Heisman.
Lastly let's put Lamar in a Clemson jersey and Watson in a Louisville jersey. Who do you think has the better season?
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All-TigerNet [14488]
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Your arguments don't hold any water...
Dec 8, 2016, 5:10 PM
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"Lamar wasn't the one who scheduled our opponents so knocking him for SOS is completely and utterly absurd. He played the teams he was given and was outstanding all season even after his numbers dipped the last few games"
He didn't schedule the games, but that's who he played. Which was lesser competition. That's just the way it was. End of story
"Take Lamar off Louisville and we probably don't even make a bowl. Take Watson off Clemson and you guys still win 10 games"
Not true at all. We win maybe 8 without Watson. But this is a hypothetical scenario, so why is it relevant?
"Lastly let's put Lamar in a Clemson jersey and Watson in a Louisville jersey. Who do you think has the better season?"
Yet another hypothetical scenario. But it completely contradicts your first point about "punishing" Lamar for not making his schedule....you are going to punish Deshaun for having a better team?
"Also consider that he rushed for 1000 more yards despite taking 27 more sacks. The fact is that Watson had WAY more talent around him which allowed him to rely on his teammates more to move the ball. Lamar broke a couple dozen records with a horrid offensive line and receivers who couldn't catch a cold."
Hard to argue with you over the rushing numbers. LJ is a phenomenal athlete and may be the best running QB I have ever seen. But the Heisman trophy shouldn't be awarded based off of stats. Otherwise, Jordan Lynch from Northern Illinois and Dan Lefevour from Central Michigan would have been finalists or winners in years past. Plus, CJ Spiller broke several NCAA records in 2009, but didn't even get an invite to NYC because his team had several losses
The award needs to encompass the ENTIRE body of work and ACCOMPLISHMENTS from the player's year....INCLUDING how well his team performed overall...
Deshaun Watson:
- Finished with Heisman-worthy statistics
- Went 12-1 against superior competition
- Won the head to head matchup
- Won conference championship
- Has his team in the playoff
Lamar Jackson:
- Finished with Heisman-worthy statistics
- Went 9-3 against inferior competition
- Lost the head to head matchup
And as far as stats go, Jackson has superior rushing numbers (by far) but Watson still has superior passing numbers.
So basically, those advocating LJ over DW choose to look at his rushing numbers and ignore the big-picture achievements that Watson has accomplished (conference championship, playoff spot)
If the Heisman was simply a question of "who has the best numbers," then Jackson is a no-brainer. But if you are truly after the best player in college football, I think Watson is the choice, even if just by a hair
I still think Jackson is going to win, partially because of the eye-popping numbers, but also because the media had already decided he was the winner halfway through the season a la Leonard Fournette/Derrick Henry last year
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Trainer [42]
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Re: Your arguments don't hold any water...
Dec 8, 2016, 5:36 PM
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Great post completely agree!
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All-TigerNet [14488]
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Re: Your arguments don't hold any water...
Dec 8, 2016, 5:41 PM
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thanks, +1 for you
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Mascot [21]
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Re: Your arguments don't hold any water...
Dec 8, 2016, 5:55 PM
[ in reply to Your arguments don't hold any water... ] |
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You say my arguments don't hold any water, then you say it's hard to argue with some of the points I've made.
You're right that Watson won more games and a conference championship and the head to head matchup, but he did it with a 1000 yard running back and a 1000 yard receiver and a top 5 defense. Jackson had none of those luxuries. Part of what makes Watson look good as he has guys around him who can make plays on both sides of the ball. For the most part, Jackson doesn't. I bring up sack #'s because it shows how horrid our OL is compared to Clemson's, even with Jackon's scrambling ability.
You focus solely on passing yards because it's about the only individual stat in which Watson outperforms Jackson but you fail to recognize that Watson threw 105 more passes than Jackson, yet their passer ratings are only a measly 0.7 points apart. Jackson beats Watson in both yards per completion and yards per attempt.
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All-TigerNet [14488]
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Re: Your arguments don't hold any water...
Dec 9, 2016, 10:54 AM
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I said it's hard to downplay Jackson's rushing numbers. Which are spectacular. But sorry, your hypothetical situations don't have any relevance, and therefore, hold no water in making the case for why Jackson should win.
I'm not focusing solely on passing numbers, just pointing out that Watson is better in that category, just as Jackson has the better rushing numbers (albeit by a much larger margin.) Watson is the better passing quarterback, just as Jackson is the superior runner. Is that saying that Jackson isn't a formidable passer himself? Absolutely not.
What I'm saying is that the award shouldn't be simply about stats, otherwise Hawaii's Colt Brennan and Timmy Chang would have been in the running 10 years or so ago when they were putting up ridiculous passing numbers.
I'm making the case for the entire body of work, and Watson's case includes 2 fewer losses against better opponents, head to head win, a conference championship, and a spot in the playoffs. So what if he had a "better" team? That's a factor that plays into consideration. You think Derrick Henry would have won it last year if he played on a non-playoff contending team? I highly doubt it.
Look, I'm not expecting to change your mind or for you to agree with me. And I expect Jackson to win the award by a comfortable margin. But a lot of that has to do with his hot start and gaudy numbers. I'm not trying to downplay what he has done at all this season, because he has been remarkable to watch. But the on-field results don't lie. Deshaun Watson is the best all-around quarterback in college football. He has proved that two years in a row.
Agree to disagree
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110%er [6320]
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Lamar didn't make the schedule, but he also failed to get
Dec 8, 2016, 5:25 PM
[ in reply to Re: Lamar Jackson has 1 win against a team with a winning record. ] |
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wins against 3 of the 4 teams you played with a winning record. I don't put the Clemson loss on Jackson, but the Houston and Kentucky losses are on his shoulders.
Oh and DW4 has 3 losses in his entire career as a starter. LJ had 3 this year alone. Out of the other 4 Heisman candidates, DW4 is undefeated against Louisville and Oklahoma. He's never played Michigan.
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Orange Blooded [2218]
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110%er [6575]
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All-TigerNet [14488]
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A fraction? Get real
Dec 8, 2016, 3:25 PM
[ in reply to Re: Lamar Jackson has 1 win against a team with a winning record. ] |
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He may not have the talent around him that DW has, but trying to argue that he is a one man team is laughable
Jackson is electric with the ball in his hands amd may be the best running QB I have ever seen. But he is not the best QB in the country
If Watson had played in garbage time against garbage teams like Jackson did, his stats would be equally as impressive.
Furthermore, the award shouldn't be strictly about better stats
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110%er [9087]
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Re: Lamar Jackson has 1 win against a team with a winning record.
Dec 8, 2016, 2:37 PM
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Charlotte 4-8 70-14
Syracuse 4-8 62-28
FSU 9-3 63-20
Marshall 3-9 59-28
Duke 4-8 24-14
NC State 6-6 54-13
Virginia 2-10 32-25
Boston Cl 6-6 52-7
W Forest 6-6 44-12
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TOTAL 44-64
Big numbers, when you just look at the points, or his stats, but when you look at who he played, any good QB/RB SHOULD have gotten big yardage against all but FSU, and you can easily say that they just didn't come to play that day, kind of like us vs WVU a few years ago.
Not impressive.
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CU Medallion [60200]
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this is an eye-opener:
Dec 8, 2016, 2:56 PM
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Stats against bowl eligible teams:
Watson - 4075 total yards; 37 TD's
Jackson - 2660 total yards; 25 TD's
Mayfield - 2034 total yards; 22 TD's
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Varsity [227]
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If we had kept him in check the entire game...
Dec 8, 2016, 2:51 PM
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He wouldn't be in NY at all
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110%er [9087]
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Sure he would have. The media had their minds made up
Dec 8, 2016, 2:54 PM
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after the FSU game. It was a done deal. It's all about flash, not facts or results.
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Varsity [227]
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The media love fest picked up steam after that.
Dec 8, 2016, 2:59 PM
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That was the fifth game of the season. Instead of "Clemson shut him down" as we did in the 1st half, it was "look how he brought Louisville back to the brink of winning". So there are two ways to look at that. Either we lost focus or he was so good we couldn't stop him.
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CU Guru [1512]
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Re: Lamar Jackson has 1 win against a team with a winning record.
Dec 8, 2016, 2:56 PM
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Fall the stats I have seen this one is the m out dramatic showing that he has done very
little against the better teams. If he wins it it will be a total disgrace. I also heard him speak today and wow could hardly understand him.
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All-In [30746]
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But that win was in sept. SEPTEMBER MAN. that's all they
Dec 8, 2016, 3:00 PM
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Matters.
That is why SEPTEMBER MAN will win the heisman
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CU Guru [1847]
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been saying that for a while!! Wonder if any of the voters
Dec 8, 2016, 5:31 PM
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Heard that stat. I know booger didn't!!
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