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All-TigerNet [12098]
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Here's the deal with basketball
Mar 10, 2017, 10:14 AM
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unless one of you is willing to pony up the buyout for Brownell we need to keep him just a little longer. By the time the ADept gets done paying the buyout, the money left over for a coach is only going to be enough for some unproven assistant or up and coming D II coach that will probably get the same results we have now or worse. Then it will be 6-7 years of giving the new guy a chance before another change can be made.
Wait until the buyout goes down, load up the big bucks, get who we need to push the program to the upper mid tier of the ACC
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CU Medallion [67133]
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Re: Here's the deal with basketball
Mar 10, 2017, 10:20 AM
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the deal is if the AD wanted him gone the money would be there. The poor mouth argument is ludicrous. And the way extensions are done there will always be years left and big $ to contend with unless he becomes a dead man walking coach with few contract years left. That would kill any recruiting. This is about riding with him because he got close in some games. I dont agree with it because the record in those was so abysmal but that is what is.
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CU Medallion [64443]
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and make the rebuilding job for the next coach much harder...
Mar 10, 2017, 11:19 AM
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Other than the buyout, there is no justifiable reason to retain Brownell.
Frankly, DRad's job should be in jeopardy as well for even agreeing to such a ridiculously foolish, unnecessary, and grossly over-inflated buyout for a coach that no other school on the planet was even remotely interested in hiring.
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All-In [48078]
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The rebuilding job may not be bad for the next coach if...
Mar 10, 2017, 11:26 AM
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we get another in a year or two. CBB seems to have stepped up recruiting. CBB may get it done, but if not he may be leaving the next coach with some decent talent. We will have to see how the class following the incoming one looks.
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Legend [19403]
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But you cannot underestimate how detrimental
Mar 10, 2017, 12:02 PM
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having just three years left on his deal is to future recruiting. He's struggled with recruiting and now he can't say to an incoming freshman I'll be here when you're a senior. This going in to a year that looks like a rebuild.
He's a lame duck with a 3 million dollar buyout next year. It's a very bad situation
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All-In [48078]
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Very true. Hopefully he get one good class after this...
Mar 10, 2017, 12:13 PM
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one coming in. You are correct though that it could be tough. I doubt he will get that extension anytime soon though. What would you do?
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Legend [19403]
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You have two choices
Mar 10, 2017, 12:16 PM
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Replace him now, or extend him. To do neither is almost guaranteeing failure. I'm in the replace now camp. This team never bought what Brad was selling and to me that's not the road you want to travel for the future
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All-In [48078]
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Sounds like DRad is going to keep him with no extension as..
Mar 10, 2017, 12:18 PM
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of now. I bet he doesn't have a new contract going into next year,unless there is something creative I am not seeing. This will be interesting.
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Legend [19403]
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Indecision is the worst decision he can make
Mar 10, 2017, 12:20 PM
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yet that appears to be exactly where we are heading
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Hall of Famer [22351]
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If Coach Brownell presses DRad on his contract, DRad
Mar 10, 2017, 1:08 PM
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should include a new buyout clause or give no extension.
If Drad doesn't let him go this year, I don't see next year being any better. We MIGHT get back to the NIT(assuming we make it this year), but I am not hopeful of a better team next year. That would mean he plans on keeping him two more years minimum.
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All-In [43563]
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After reflecting on it a lot, I see it differently now.
Mar 10, 2017, 1:40 PM
[ in reply to You have two choices ] |
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I do think the team bought into what Brad was teaching them. While it is easy to look at the close losses and blame coaching - and that is exactly what I have done for much of this season - I recently considered the fact that we were in so many close games because of Brad's coaching.
Think about it: we shouldn't even be within 10 points of Duke, UNC, Louisville, and most of the ACC teams we play if you look at recruiting rankings. We are out-talented almost every game. While Brad certainly isn't perfect, and you can point to many instances where his coaching left something to be desired, overall he has done an excellent job these last 7 years in getting our team to be competitive virtually every night.
Being competitive obviously isn't our goal. Our team needs to start winning some of these close games. My hope is that as the talent level improves - and I think it will - that we will win more. Remember, it wasn't long ago that the football team had trouble winning close games. Once they got over that mental hurdle, the improvement has been dramatic.
Recruiting has always been Brad's main issue, and I think that is mostly due to having poor facilities and the perception that Clemson does not support basketball. While one year is not enough time to judge the impact of the new facilities, I am encouraged by Brad's first recruiting class since those upgrades have occurred. We have three 4-star players who had offers from many good basketball programs, as well as a 3-star player who was also wanted by several other good programs. We are also in contention for several good 2018 prospects as well.
If Brad can get another good recruiting class next year, I think we will all be surprised at how much better his coaching appears all of a sudden. Dabo became a much better coach once he got the facilities he needed and was thus able to sign the players he was previously unable to.
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Legend [19403]
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He signed a top 40 class
Mar 10, 2017, 4:34 PM
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Which still ranks us well in the bottom part of the ACC. That talent gap isn't closing. Meanwhile, Cliff, Barnes and OP all had top 20 classes.
And to say this team bought in to playing defense this year when Brad himself consistently pointed out they didn't is just self delusion Judge. These were all his players and they did not play even passable defense. Same mistakes every game, all year long. That's not buying in.
I supported Brad for years but I see nothing, and I mean nothing, that tells me he is the guy to take us to another level, which should be our goal
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All-In [43563]
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I was referring to the players playing hard.
Mar 10, 2017, 5:18 PM
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I'm not debating that the defense was less effective this year, but in general, the team played really hard even when they could've easily mailed it in. When most fans had given up on the team, they kept playing hard. I think Brad deserves some of the credit for that.
Nobody is trying to portray him as a recruiter on par with other coaches. He needs to improve on that, and I am optimistic with the recent recruits and transfers that he is doing that. Regarding the coaches you mentioned:
1. Cliff Ellis cheated to get some of those recruits. Nice guy and everything, but he put us on probation. Remember our great Sweet Sixteen team from 1990? Those wins were vacated due to NCAA violations. I don't want to go back to that again.
2. Oliver Purnell was a great coach and had some good classes, but his top 20 class ended up being a huge disappointment. Jennings turned out not to be a five star player, and Noel Johnson was nowhere near a four star player. That is a failure on OP's part, either in evaluating talent or in developing talent - or both.
3. Rick Barnes is an excellent coach, and clearly the best one we've had at Clemson. He is a great example for Brownell to follow if he hopes to be more successful at Clemson (and I am convinced he does).
I agree that we need to demand more, but I have no confidence that Clemson would go after anyone but yet another "up-and-coming" mid-major coach. I'm tired of rolling the dice, and unless DRad has someone in line to replace Brownell, I'd rather just give him another year or two.
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Legend [19403]
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Barnes took over what was called the worst team
Mar 10, 2017, 5:29 PM
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in ACC history and guided us to the NIT. Had us in the Sweet 16 in three years. There is zero comparison between him and Brad.
OP actually had a couple of top 20 classes. The class with Rivers and Mays was one as well.
Unless Brad is somehow bringing in classes he's never come close to, and quickly, where is the improvement coming from?
And I agree, they played hard all year. They in no way played smart. They made the same mistakes all year long, and that does go back to coaching
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110%er [8008]
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Dabo was a great recruiter even before the facility upgrades
Mar 10, 2017, 4:52 PM
[ in reply to After reflecting on it a lot, I see it differently now. ] |
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Sure, the new facilities helps, but Dabo has that charismatic personality that all great salesmen have, and recruiting is certainly a sales job.
Brad has never been a great recruiter. I doubt that changes even with the Littlejohn upgrades.
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All-In [43563]
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Dabo was indeed a great recruiter before the upgrades.
Mar 10, 2017, 5:22 PM
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But it was obvious that those upgrades made a huge difference in the caliber of player we recruited.
Unlike football, basketball isn't selling a history of winning bowl games and championships, or a passionate fan base, or unique traditions. I am sure Brownell would have done a lot better if he could have been selling those things the last six years. Because he couldn't, the facility upgrades have been that much more important and we are just now starting to see the results of that.
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All-In [43563]
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If DRad keeps him, then he has to give him an extension.
Mar 10, 2017, 1:33 PM
[ in reply to But you cannot underestimate how detrimental ] |
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It would make zero sense to give him a vote of confidence by not firing him, yet failing to extend his contract at least another year or two. My hope is he gives him an extension but keeps the buyout the same. That allows Brad to have a level playing field in recruiting, but does not hamstring Clemson if we decide in a year or two that he should be fired.
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Hall of Famer [22351]
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So, keep the $3 Million dollar buyout with an extension?
Mar 10, 2017, 1:53 PM
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How is that helpful, if the current problem is the buyout is too high?
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All-In [43563]
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Who said the buyout was the problem?
Mar 10, 2017, 5:24 PM
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Clemson has plenty of money. If DRad wants Brownell fired, he will pay the buyout. If Brownell is retained after this season - and it appears that he will be, based on DRad's recent comments - it will be because DRad has seen some things which lead him to believe Brownell can still turn things around.
So yes, if we keep him, then I anticipate that we will see 2-3 years added to his contract with the same buyout structure we see now. His buyout isn't unreasonable in today's world of coaching. Heck, Dabo's buyout is $20 million.
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Walk-On [138]
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Re: Here's the deal with basketball
Mar 10, 2017, 1:59 PM
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I do not think another year of basketball mediocrity benefits anybody. Its time to upgrade the program, we have a new facility and our brand is riding high with the football championship. Let's be real, they have the money.
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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Money is not the main obstacle ... never has been.
Mar 10, 2017, 3:25 PM
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The main obstacle is identifying the "right" guy. The "right" guy may or may not be looking for a pile of instant cash. And the guy who is moving from a successful place to a new program simply to better himself financially is not necessarily someone who we need to lead our program at Clemson.
The buy-out, while substantial is not the big gamble. The big gamble is that you fire Brownell, pay the huge buyout, and then hire yet another guy who can't get Clemson over the hump.
The bottom line is that there are absolutely no guarantees that money can automatically "purchase" the right guy for Clemson basketball.
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Legend [19403]
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No, the question is....is Brad that guy
Mar 10, 2017, 4:36 PM
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if he's not then you move on. Period
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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If Brad's not the guy ... then who is? That's the question.
Mar 10, 2017, 5:16 PM
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Who is the guy who can overcome three quaters of a century of futility?
Do we know? No ... unfortunately we haven't got a clue. Schools pay huge money to get name coaches all the time and then find out that those guys couldn't recreate their former success in their new environment.
So ... if Brad's NOT the guy, then we'd better have a CLUE as to who IS the guy before we throw money at the buy-out and then throw a lot more money at a new coach.
If predicting who was the right guy to get the job done were easy and especially if it were simply a matter of spending enough money, we'd have been a great basketball program many, many years ago.
In no way am I saying Brad Brownell should be retained. I'm just saying that simply moving on for the sake of change without any idea of what sort of improvement that change might make is foolish.
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Legend [19403]
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If you determine Brad isn't that guy, what sense
Mar 10, 2017, 5:21 PM
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is there in keeping him? There are plenty of guys who could be, do we know for sure Brad isn't? I've seen enough for my mind to be made up
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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All I'm saying is ...
Mar 10, 2017, 5:27 PM
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... do a better job in finding the next guy. Are there plenty of guys out there who could get the job done ... sure probably. Do we know who they are? Absolutely not.
Look up in Raleigh where they've hired and fired 5 straight coaches looking for the next Everett Case / Norm Sloan who can bring back their glory years.
They simply cannot seem to find him no matter how hard they try and how much money they spend.
I'm not saying stick with Brownell no matter what. I'm saying don't hire another guy who will either fail to produce, or produce a little bit and bolt for greener pastures as soon as things get good.
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Legend [19403]
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But you have no control over that
Mar 10, 2017, 5:34 PM
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The one thing we do control is do we feel Brad is that guy? Yes or no. If yes, I ask based on what? If no, you move on
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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We agree for the most part. I'm just less inclined to
Mar 10, 2017, 5:47 PM
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pull the trigger and then start throwing darts at a target while blind-folded. While I know we could do a lot better than Brad, I also know that we could do worse or end up no better off.
Besides, it looks like the AD has decided to keep him anyway so it's probably a moot discussion.
Peace ...
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Legend [19403]
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Yes, the only question appears to be
Mar 10, 2017, 5:54 PM
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will we give yet another unwarranted extension. We haven't endured a stretch of mediocrity like this since before 1979-80. And some are talking about giving him an extension. SMH
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