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Orange Blooded [4008]
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For those who know the Bible well
Mar 2, 2021, 11:52 PM
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What chapter and verse best tells us Americans how we should handle our southern border problem? What does it say we should do with those impoverished brown Christians who don't speak English?
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Lot o points [155696]
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It’s in the 12th chapter and 11th verse of the book of De
Mar 2, 2021, 11:56 PM
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eeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Nuttttttttttttzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 12:28 AM
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Hall of Famer [24455]
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He didn't post because he cares about anyone else, but
Mar 3, 2021, 1:53 AM
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because he hates you. Good answer. Let him go.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: He didn't post because he cares about anyone else, but
Mar 3, 2021, 6:30 AM
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Yep some people just want to pick a fight. “Dust your feet off, move on”, as the scripture says.
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All-In [42023]
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Childish response.***
Mar 3, 2021, 4:56 PM
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The guy started a childish and inflammatory post. He knew what he was doing.
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: Childish response.***
Mar 3, 2021, 6:10 PM
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I started a postponing a legitimate question. It's not my fault if it hurt your feelings.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Childish response.***
Mar 3, 2021, 6:48 PM
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Didn’t hurt my feelings. You know your intent.
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: Childish response.***
Mar 4, 2021, 8:48 AM
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My intent was to try and figure out why Christians fail to follow their own teachings. If I understand this thread correctly, Matthew 25 is to be ignored and Romans is to be followed. I've noticed that this line of thinking directly correlates with that of Trump. Am I wrong?
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Hall of Famer [24695]
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Romans...The perpetrators of crucifixion. You can thank
Mar 3, 2021, 6:46 AM
[ in reply to Re: For those who know the Bible well ] |
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them for perpetuating the symbol of the cross.
They weren't the first but they were the most egregious...and now the most famous.
Were the Romans a proxy of God?
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Legend [17888]
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John 19:11a answers that question
Mar 3, 2021, 7:20 AM
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quite nicely.
Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above."
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Hall of Famer [24695]
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I wonder what Spartacus and his 6000 followers thought.
Mar 3, 2021, 7:25 AM
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That's a lot of crucifixes...
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Hall of Famer [23977]
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All-In [42023]
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Countering the teachings of Christ...
Mar 3, 2021, 7:47 AM
[ in reply to Re: For those who know the Bible well ] |
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... with the writings of Paul doesn't usually go well.
Christ said how to treat these immigrants. Paul was wrong. Say it again. Paul was wrong.
That's the problem with Christianity today. Too much Paul, not enough Jesus. If Paul even existed, he was a con artist.
We're also talking about misdemeanors, and I'll take wagers now on what Jesus would say about borders and people wanting to cross them for a better way of life.
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 8:32 AM
[ in reply to Re: For those who know the Bible well ] |
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Would you still point to these Roman's versus if the "governing authorities" outlawed the practice of Christianity? I'm curious as to your response on this.
Also, what's your opinion on Matthew 25:31-46. Does Roman's supersede Matthew?
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Legend [19913]
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All-TigerNet [12570]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 8:15 AM
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Bham. A little exercise and perhaps a bit of Zoloft will take the edge off the evening. Dark chocolate is also an endorphin stimulator. BTW, do you feel betrayed by the glacial pace of the renaming of the military bases named after Confederate military leaders. The bill that passed Congress is going to appropriate millions to set up, yes- ahem a committee to handle this and allows up to three years to complete this Herculean task. Apparently Uncle Joe has the authority to issue an Executive Order to get this done much quicker.
BTW, what have you done personally to help illegals residing in your area? Or are they all chilling in nice cribs in Mountain Brook and Vestavia Hills?
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 8:38 AM
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Wow, you completely ignored the question in the OP and went with the ad hominem with a little bit of strawman mixed in. I would think Christians would love the opportunity to defend their stances based on reason and pragmatic use of the scripture. I'll give you another chance to address the OP.
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 9:06 AM
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We (Christians) are called to compassion and to help those in need. I don't believe abandonment of laws is a requirement of compassion. We should help the homeless too but I hardly think compassion requires I move them in with my family. There are host of Christian charities, including a mission at my church, who assist with illegal immigrants.
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 9:41 AM
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What course are Christians suppose to take if the law is in contradiction of Christian teaching?
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 9:50 AM
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Where is there a contradiction between a law saying you must legally enter the country and the Bible's call for compassion? We submit to laws all the time yet are told to maintain compassion.
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 10:29 AM
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Christiand are using "you must obey the law" as a way to justify ignoring Mathew 25. If you must always "obey the law", then what are Christians to do when the law violates their teachings? It's a legitimate question.
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All-TigerNet [12570]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 9:10 AM
[ in reply to Re: For those who know the Bible well ] |
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It's not a clear cut issue in my opinion. The Bible teaches that we must respect strangers amongst us and treat them well, yet the Bible teaches that we are to respect governmental laws as these laws create a safe environment for all.Laws are to be just. The problem is Christians on both sides can therefore use the Bible to support more of adherence to laws that they feel are just while others feel we should have a more open approach. I think the U.S. and Christians as a whole have done much to alleviate suffering and help the downtrodden more than any nation. Yet, does this mean we are to allow our country to be flooded with those breaking laws established to create some semblance of order.
It's a complicated issue.
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All-In [42023]
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 9:40 AM
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Why try to substitute a 2000 year old book for your human conscience ?
What would you have someone do if the roles were reversed ?
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 9:53 AM
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Herein lies the difference and why these discussions won't resolve anything. You view the Bible as a mere book. For the believer, it's the word of God. To be clear, there is plenty in there I have a hard time understanding but that doesn't diminish my faith in it. It doesn't make it wrong, it just means I don't understand it. As for your human conscience (as if you could have any other kind), the Bible speaks to that too.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 3:30 PM
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AF
Could you help me with some sup[porting evidence that the bible is the word of god, because there is quite a bit of evidence that it is the word of man.
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 3:59 PM
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No. There is nothing I can't provide you that you'll accept. I can quote what scripture says of itself (that it is "God breathed"). But you and I both know that won't do for you. In fact, I suspect there is no evidence which would convince you of this.
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CU Medallion [65037]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 8:22 PM
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AFDAWG, we can go round and round on football topics, but on the subject of the Bible, I am with you 100%. Even on the subject of God himself, "true" nonbelievers will not be swayed, and are in for an eternally bad surprise when they pass on from this world.
Actual highly thinking individuals (scientists, finally) even came to the conclusion that there had to be an "Intelligent Design" behind life and other facets of nature appearing on earth. They could not bring themselves to call him GOD, even though they danced all around His courtyard in their explanations of how life could be here. They admitted it could NOT just have randomly occurred.
I suspect the OP is just one of these type individuals who are only "happy" when they can make others as miserable as they are. A Christian is no different than any other religion in being, in the final analysis, unable to defend themselves against such garbage. This is because, the very definition of FAITH is a belief in things unseen. I will continue to have this faith, in spite of any social media bilge to the contrary.
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 8:36 PM
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The athiests seem to want "evidence" of God's existence or the resurrection of Jesus. They never seem able or willing to describe what such evidence would look like. I think a non-believer's call for "evidence" is disingenous. No evidence will suffice. It's a matter of faith and you have it or you don't.
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CU Medallion [65037]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 9:12 PM
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I was raised in the Church (Methodist version), but, having an analytical mind, still struggled with Faith, the belief in that which is unseen. My chosen career of Chemical Engineering, where EVERYTHING to do with solving problems is based on data and analyis of same, just made that struggle harder.
I don't struggle anymore. I have undergone a lot of surgeries in my life. None was life threatening, unless you count the low unexplained percentage of patients who just never wake up from anesthesia. I was having one of my surgeries years ago, it may have been gall bladder removal, as I said, not life threatening. The docs gave me the standard spiel about the dangers of anesthesia, etc. Normally, I just brushed that off, due to the low chance of problems. But, after they gave me the first "calm down" medicine in the IV this time, while still wide awake, I had a thought, "You know, there IS a chance I could die here today."
This thought had not even completely exited my mind yet, when a calm, peaceful, NOT MY OWN voice spoke in my mind saying, and I quote, "EVEN IF THAT HAPPENS, YOU WILL BE JUST FINE." The small room I was in seemed to disappear around me, and suddenly I was in what seemed to be a vast space with MANY people, although they were indistinct, as if behind a veil. I had this OVERWHELMING sense of peace, and any worry I had was immediately gone.
As I said, I was still awake, and a couple seconds later, I was back in the pre-op cubicle. I even told the nurse, WOW, that was a great trip, what did you give me in the IV? She informed me that it was just Versed, which I had had many times before, in that same hospital.
That is my, what I call, my "mini" testimony. I firmly believe, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that it was Jesus who spoke those words of comfort, and provided that utter sense of peace and calm. I also believe that the vision I saw was of a heavenly "welcoming committee", for want of a better term. I have had no fear of death since that day. I still fear having a lot of pain BEFORE I die, but as long as I keep my faith, a whole better world awaits on the other side. Atheists will never disprove this.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 9:53 PM
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Man that is beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. You have what the Bible describes as peace that passes all understanding. God is real and you now have a peace I wish all could have. As I read posts on this forum one thing is clear. There are some brilliant people on here who struggle to put faith in the unseen. I challenge all to read the Bible with your heart and put the analytical mind aside for a bit. God will reveal himself in that kind of humility.
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 9:57 PM
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If you have lost a son, daughter, mother, father, sibling or grandparent , why would you not hold on to the idea that if you just have faith in a savior you might be able to reunite one day, why wouldn’t you. Did you really love anybody in your life
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Hall of Famer [23977]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 11:26 PM
[ in reply to Re: For those who know the Bible well ] |
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Love the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego - how many times have I walked through the fire with company?
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 10:18 PM
[ in reply to Re: For those who know the Bible well ] |
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Dawg, It is kind of hard to say this: "In fact, I suspect there is no evidence which would convince you of this." after admitting that you don't have any evidence.
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 3, 2021, 10:22 PM
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Dawg, It is kind of hard to say this: "In fact, I suspect there is no evidence which would convince you of this." after admitting that you don't have any evidence.
You have no evidence there isn’t.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 4, 2021, 8:59 AM
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Touch
I can't prove that unicorns do not exist but I don't believe in them either. And I certainly don't build my life around them.
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 4, 2021, 6:49 AM
[ in reply to Re: For those who know the Bible well ] |
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Allow me to rephrase. I don't have anything you would recognize as evidence.
The faith within a believer is all the "evidence" they need. Anyone believer who has felt the peace of God sweep over him in a difficult time knows what I'm talking about. I don't mean to insult you here, but I wouldn't expect you to understand it. Paul said as much in 1 Corinthians. To paraphrase Paul, God's word is spiritually discerned and the natural man cannot receive it.
The Bible is a book of faith - not science. It doesn't set out to explain the complicated processes of life. It starts with a presupposition for the existence of God and goes from there.
Back to the question of evidence, I truly would be interested to know what specific evidence would convince you of the truth of scripture.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 4, 2021, 8:57 AM
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Dawg
Let me start with an appreciation of our respectful conversation here. This can be an emotional topic and I would rather avoid that. Thanks
I get the concept of faith. I was raised in the Lutheran church so I am not unfamiliar with these religious precepts. And I have absolutely no problem with people of faith as long as they don't start trying to impose their beliefs (& the ramifications thereof) onto the American public. Unfortunately, that happens all of the time.
It is hard to be specific about evidence that would convince me. How about god showing himself and clearing up some of the conflicts in all of the different interpretations of his will ? That seems pretty straightforward - and helpful. If god is the benevolent father figure depicted in christianity, couldn't he come down here and set us straight again ? It seems that we have gotten off of the track.
I don't understand why he feels the need to be so mysterious and reclusive. What's wrong with a little clear evidence ?
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 4, 2021, 10:11 AM
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It always strikes me as odd when someone suggests people of faith shouldn't "impose their beliefs." I wonder why. Everyone has a belief in something. Are they allowed to influence society to conform to their beliefs or are such restrictions only for those with a belief in God? I guess that's another question for another time.
If God did "clear things up" would you recognize it as God's hand or would you seek and settle on a more naturalistic explanation? I once watched a debate on the existence of God between a theologian and atheist Matt Dillahunty. The question posed to Dillahunty was in reference to evidence he would accept. "If astronomers discovered a comet was going to strike the moon, and every telescope on earth was turned to the moon to catch the event, the comet strikes and when the dust settles there is a message, "I am God," would you accept that as proof of God's existence?" The answer was something like, "Well, I'd first have to eliminate all the possible natural causes of it." That may have been the moment I realized how pointless these debates are.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 4, 2021, 1:31 PM
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Dawg,
I think that the phenomenon you describe would convince me that there was a god - but I would still have questions - about the phenomenon - and of god.
OTOH, if the unlikely phenomenon was less clear, then I too would look for natural answers before considering the supernatural. I think that was the position that Matt was trying to convey.
Why in the universe would god choose such an obtuse way to communicate with humans ??
After all is said and done, I am not opposed to recognizing a supreme being if one provides use with some tangible evidence. In fact, some aspects of there being a supreme being might be pleasant. So I, like Asimov, am open to evidence.
As to your first question, it seems to me that if I want you to endorse a position or belief, I have to use evidence and reason to convince you. However, often christians don't use such secular logic to push their agenda. This may not always be true, but it often is.
If a person had a religious belief, but could provide logical reasons that I should adopt it too, then that would be a different story.
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 5, 2021, 6:39 AM
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God performed miracles throughout the Bible. Proof of God is found in nature (Ps 19:1), experience (Romans 1:18-20), Scripture (John 20:30-31) and testimony (Matthew 28:19). All men know of the existence of God, some just have no regard for Him. For those, no miracle or "tangible evidence" will suffice. Jesus said as much in John 12:37.
I hope you'll be careful in putting God to the test. Scripture tells us He resists the proud (Proverbs 3:34, 1 Peter 5:6, James 4:6-7). I suppose God could decide to perform for you a circus trick to exhibit His power. He could also demonstrate your ultimate reliance on him by allowing you to be brought to your knees.
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Legend [15730]
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To me, this is a tired game played by the left.
Mar 4, 2021, 10:58 AM
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I'm not qualified to answer your question...but when has that ever stopped me?
I highly, highly doubt you'll find a country more generous toward the less-fortunate in the world than America. Both in terms of contributions to charities by individuals and funding from our federal government. And that's to say nothing about the actual manhours of volunteer time that comes out of this country. I'm happy to find out that I'm wrong but I think its fair to say that America supports the less fortunate.
I doubt there are more countries dealing with more people wanting to come into their country than America. Again, feel free to show me where I'm wrong...and if I am, I would bet it will be akin to Tobias' "Oh, yeah, but per 100 people, we're just doing 'okay' on the vaccine program."
To wag your finger at the Christians of this country as hypocritical to not open the southern border of our country and let whomever wants to come in walk right in is to mock the very idea of national sovereignty. Do we have ANY right to control our southern border? Are we obligated to spend WHATEVER we may so that these thousands and thousands of illegal immigrants can be housed in facilities that will make us feel good about ourselves when we see them on CNN at night?
I can't believe the Democrats have made "control of our national borders" such a contentious topic. It is a fundamental function of a federal government, and one that every other country in the world does. Just because Christians in this country don't concede to an open border does not mean that don't care about people, or are lesser Christians.
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: To me, this is a tired game played by the left.
Mar 4, 2021, 11:03 AM
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So when it comes to the Southern border, why do Christians ignore Matthew 25, yet point to Romans as the correct action to take? Do you if Jesus were to return tomorrow, he would stand at our southern border with a whip chasing back illegals?
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Hall of Famer [23977]
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Re: To me, this is a tired game played by the left.
Mar 4, 2021, 11:22 AM
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Would he be at any other country's border? Why shouldn't the US enforce its immigration laws like other countries? The US lets more immigrants in than any other country in the world.
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: To me, this is a tired game played by the left.
Mar 4, 2021, 11:56 AM
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You side stepped the question. If Jesus were to return tomorrow, do you believe he would support the wall?
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Legend [15730]
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I don't know. I do know that if Jesus returned and had
Mar 4, 2021, 12:15 PM
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an issue with border security, he would have a lot to complain about. Probably start with the Vatican.
But my main point is if an American considers themselves a Christian and also staunchly opposes illegal immigration, I do not at all find those two positions contradictory. You might, or at least will pretend to so as to win an argument.
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Legend [15730]
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And you'll have to link Matthew 25. I did a web search and
Mar 4, 2021, 12:16 PM
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it brought up some story about 10 virgins and a bridegroom. Not sure how it is being applied here.
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: And you'll have to link Matthew 25. I did a web search and
Mar 4, 2021, 12:30 PM
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He's referring to Matthew 25:31-46
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Legend [15730]
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Ah, yes. Perfect example. Two comments:
Mar 4, 2021, 12:38 PM
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1) Yes that fits perfectly with my comment. No people are more giving and charitable than the Americans. So if American Christians are denied Heaven because of a pro-border-security stance, it will be an empty place.
2) I have this discussion every now and then with my liberal friends who are Christian. Just my opinion, but if you think you're getting into Heaven because of how giving you are of other people's money because you support the government taking it by force to give it to others, I think you're in for a rude awakening.
As I thought, this is the same old tired argument.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Ah, yes. Perfect example. Two comments:
Mar 6, 2021, 11:52 AM
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: To me, this is a tired game played by the left.
Mar 4, 2021, 12:15 PM
[ in reply to Re: To me, this is a tired game played by the left. ] |
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I don't know if Jesus would support the wall. I don't know if he would preach that a sovereign nation must allow any and everyone who wants to enter. I don't know because, to my knowledge, he didn't speak to it. He didn't speak to many things that our society now deals with, internet pornography or gay marriage, for example. But, you can infer from scripture where'd he's stand on both. So you're free to infer from scripture that he would not support the wall.
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: To me, this is a tired game played by the left.
Mar 4, 2021, 1:19 PM
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You honestly believe Jesus would tell brown impoverished Christians to stay on there side of the border. Would he also tell them "stinks to be you"?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: To me, this is a tired game played by the left.
Mar 4, 2021, 1:35 PM
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: To me, this is a tired game played by the left.
Mar 6, 2021, 10:52 AM
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It seems your frustrated at Matthew 25:31-46 as you are providing justification to ignore it. Look man, I didn't write that scripture. So do you believe it's accurate, or do you believe it's crap. You seem to be leaning towards the latter, amirite?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: To me, this is a tired game played by the left.
Mar 6, 2021, 11:32 AM
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: To me, this is a tired game played by the left.
Mar 6, 2021, 1:10 PM
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You most certainly are ignoring the Sheep and the Goats. Those are the words of Christ. You keep directing me to a letter from Paul(not the words of Christ) and stretch it into "law and order" and making the narrative that Jesus would want you to not directly help impoverished people because of "borders"' You guys are quite remarkable with how far you will bend to avoid having to abide by your own scripture. Again, it's not me who wrote the scripture. You need to take your frustrations up with Jesus himself. #InconvenientFacts.com
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: To me, this is a tired game played by the left.
Mar 6, 2021, 2:04 PM
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: To me, this is a tired game played by the left.
Mar 4, 2021, 1:37 PM
[ in reply to Re: To me, this is a tired game played by the left. ] |
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I don't know what he would say to them. Would he encourage them to risk their lives, to abandon their children to the horrors inflected upon them by smugglers? Would he call on everyone on both sides of the border to follow His Word and to treat one another as we want to be treated?
If he did that, would there be reason for people to flee these areas?
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: To me, this is a tired game played by the left.
Mar 4, 2021, 1:55 PM
[ in reply to To me, this is a tired game played by the left. ] |
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Hey Swarley, How's it going ?
I too did not know enough to answer the questions that you have been considering - so I looked it up before posting - novel idea, huh.
You have legitimate grounds for considering the US the most generous country in the world. There are a couple of ways that it is not #1, but the majority of considerations point to it being the most generous - even when we look at giving as a % of GDP.
Unfortunately, we are not #1 in generosity as a percentage of per capita GDP. So while we can claim to be the most generous country, we cannot claim to be the most generous people. Weird, huh.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2019-12-20/the-worlds-most-generous-countries
https://www.workandmoney.com/s/most-generous-countries-b2bdc242cf3745e5
As far as immigration goes, we are #1 in sheer numbers but only 8th in terms of immigrants as a % of our population. There are some very good charts here:
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/03/which-countries-have-the-most-immigrants-51048ff1f9/
On the philosophical aspect of your argument, I have to say that i am not a religious person. However, I DO wonder how the god of ALL human beings would feel about tribalism and national sovereignty. I would think that he would want equity and justice for ALL of his people, but then again, I am not god so . . .
As a human and a liberal, I am not for open borders. But I DO think that we could be more accepting of refugees from other countries coming here to look for a better life. I think our society might even benefit from it if done properly.
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Legend [15730]
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Thanks for the links. Of course there are a thousand
Mar 4, 2021, 2:32 PM
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ways one could define generosity. But I would argue your links support my argument. In all, Americans are generous. Those studies seemed to take into consideration things like "Did you help a stranger today?" A great indicator of generosity, but my point was specific to how people of our country, and our country's government, support those in other lands. At the end of the day, it's not a big deal if we are not #1...we are consistently one of the most generous countries. All of that is shoved aside the minute any line is drawn and we are told we are unChristian because we don't believe anyone should be able to just waltz into the country.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Thanks for the links. Of course there are a thousand
Mar 4, 2021, 3:11 PM
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Swarley
Again, I am not a religious person, but from what I do know of Jesus's teachiungs, it seems to me that the question would be - Are we doing as much as we can ? Not - are we doing better than others ?
I could be wrong, but I think we could do more and that we might actually reap benefits from doing so. I don't think we can consider ourselves world leaders if we are just trying to get by doing more than the other guys.
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Legend [15730]
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If that's the question to you, then great. What else are
Mar 4, 2021, 3:29 PM
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you going to start doing?
The question to me is, will we let people use our religious faith to manipulate us into making bad national sovereignty policy decisions. For me, the answer is no.
We can always do more. Maybe you'll start volunteering at the border, or donate more to charities that support the immigrants. That's fine, but how many will you house while they get their feet under them in their new land?
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All-In [42023]
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I think the OP should have clarified his post.
Mar 4, 2021, 2:54 PM
[ in reply to To me, this is a tired game played by the left. ] |
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Targeting all Christians is disingenuous and unfair (I also think you make very good points about America's generosity).
I think (and correct me if I'm wrong, Birmingham) he was targeting the people who in one breath claim to be Christian and in another breath, cheer on Trumpian policies that harmed immigrants and embraced cruelty.
We've seen that a lot here. Posters who will act like sweet little pussycats when Jesus gets mentioned, but then start spouting hate and vitriol towards immigrants and "the left" or Dems or whomever when it comes to these issues.
You can be a Christian and support lawfulness at the border. Let's be honest; an open border just ain't smart, Jesus or not. You can be Christian and demand tough yet humane practices by our officials at the border.
What you can't be is Christian and embrace Trumpian ideology towards immigrants or how you carry yourself as a person. You cannot carry both torches. They are mutually exclusive. Those who claim to be both are simply parading as fake Christians.
And rest assured, if there's a hell, Donald J. Trump is on his way to it.
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: I think the OP should have clarified his post.
Mar 4, 2021, 3:58 PM
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Agree with much in your post. But I wonder, if you can't support Trump's ideology regarding the border and be Christian, can you support the Democrats' general position on abortion or gay marriage and be Christian? Who gets to decide once you've taken a position that disqualifies you as a Christian?
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: I think the OP should have clarified his post.
Mar 4, 2021, 5:53 PM
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How can Christians, who believe life starts at the moment of conception, be so anti-abortion, yet look the other way and not say anything about the millions of embryos destroyed at IVF clinics? Why is all the hate directed towards PP and not fertility clinics?
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: I think the OP should have clarified his post.
Mar 5, 2021, 6:12 AM
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Honest people, Christian and non-Christian, oppose abortion. Why does this mean they "hate" PP? More to your question, there are some Christian groups who oppose and protest IVF clinics. As to why PP gets more attention, I guess it is because one facility (or process) is designed to create life and the other designed to end it.
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: I think the OP should have clarified his post.
Mar 5, 2021, 10:40 AM
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Christians and there anti-abortion stance is mostly feigned. I'll take their concerns on "murdering babies" seriously when they devote as much attention to IVF clinics as they do PP. The problem is that Conservative Christians are some of IVF's biggest customers. I guess that's why they don't have a problem with looking the other way as millions of embryos are discarded. But hey, it's abortion that's evil.
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All-In [42023]
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Re: I think the OP should have clarified his post.
Mar 5, 2021, 8:41 AM
[ in reply to Re: I think the OP should have clarified his post. ] |
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I think your abortion point is a valid one and worth discussing. Gay marriage, no. It wasn't addressed by Christ and was likely fabricated later in the Bible as simple control. It's also an issue too many modern day Christians have focused on, and they need to let it go.
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: I think the OP should have clarified his post.
Mar 5, 2021, 9:12 AM
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Serious question - what evidence (since "evidence" is what everyone seems to want) do you have that the issue of homosexual conduct wasn't addressed in the original manuscripts but added later?
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All-In [42023]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I think the OP should have clarified his post.
Mar 5, 2021, 3:05 PM
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All-In [42023]
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But you can't cite Leviticus.
Mar 5, 2021, 3:27 PM
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The folly of that has long been tossed out because that same book bans eating oysters, wearing clothes made of different materials, rules on cutting hair and beards, etc.
New Testament doctrine has to apply here. And you can't use Leviticus to justify restricting someone's freedoms or calling it a sin unless you are maintaining that same stance toward all the seafood restaurants in town.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: But you can't cite Leviticus.
Mar 5, 2021, 3:52 PM
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: But you can't cite Leviticus.
Mar 6, 2021, 10:50 AM
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It would be stronger if it made the top 10 list of things that God is concerned about. I don't see it on the list of the 10 commandments.
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All-In [42023]
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It's cherrypicking and hypocrisy
Mar 7, 2021, 9:37 AM
[ in reply to Re: But you can't cite Leviticus. ] |
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You can't call one thing a sin and abomination but then say the other practice is just fine when they appear as sins in the exact same chapter. If you acknowledge the Bible was wrong on seafood or the type of clothing we wear, you have to acknowledge it was likely wrong on the other thing, too.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: It's cherrypicking and hypocrisy
Mar 8, 2021, 2:05 PM
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All-In [42023]
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Re: It's cherrypicking and hypocrisy
Mar 8, 2021, 2:09 PM
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I think we can both agree such "sins" as combined clothing materials and seafood aren't really sins. It was BS made up centuries ago. Thus, anything else listed with them as a sin is suspect.
Message was edited by: Catahoula®
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: It's cherrypicking and hypocrisy
Mar 8, 2021, 2:27 PM
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All-In [42023]
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The heart of our discussion...
Mar 8, 2021, 5:51 PM
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Is that you mentioned Leviticus. You switched gears once that has been eliminated.
That's the problem. Y'all have to stop citing Leviticus over this issue. It completely destroys any argument against it. Frankly, it's a moot point. Eventually it'll be worked out of the Bible altogether just as it was worked in centuries after the original texts.
Going back to the earlier translations of the Bible and how it has changed over the years casts serious doubt on Romans 1 and its views on homosexuality.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: The heart of our discussion...
Mar 8, 2021, 6:32 PM
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All-In [42023]
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Re: The heart of our discussion...
Mar 8, 2021, 9:14 PM
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I'm not making an argument that it condones it. I'm arguing that the translations have been changed and manipulated over time, especially changing to English, to make it a "sin" to suit the churches and governments of the time. Before, it wasn't a big deal.
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: But you can't cite Leviticus.
Mar 5, 2021, 4:52 PM
[ in reply to But you can't cite Leviticus. ] |
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And how do you dismiss Paul's description of homosexual behavior in Romans?
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: But you can't cite Leviticus.
Mar 6, 2021, 8:10 AM
[ in reply to But you can't cite Leviticus. ] |
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Christians love to cherry pick what they are to follow what they are to ignore. It's quite laughable, really.
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: But you can't cite Leviticus.
Mar 8, 2021, 10:05 AM
[ in reply to But you can't cite Leviticus. ] |
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Again....how do you respond to Paul's condemnation of homosexual conduct in Romans? That's New Testament.
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: But you can't cite Leviticus.
Mar 8, 2021, 1:54 PM
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Is Paul the word of Christ? Lol. If homosexualty is such a big deal, then why did it not make the 10 commandments? Why does Christ himself not mention it at all? We know that married men banging #### stars is a no-no. But you seem more concerned over something Christ himself never bothered to talk about.
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: But you can't cite Leviticus.
Mar 8, 2021, 3:55 PM
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Well, Paul is speaking God's inspired word so yeah, he is speaking the words of Christ. I'll concede your point that Jesus didn't say anything about it while on earth. I'd disagree that just because he didn't speak specifically to it, nothing else said about in in the Bible matters.
Why isn't it one of the 10 Commandments? I don't know. If it were, do you think you'd accept that or try to find a way to explain it away?
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: But you can't cite Leviticus.
Mar 8, 2021, 10:23 PM
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And this is where things get ridiculous. If homosexuality is really that bad, then why is it not one of the 10C? I mean really, thinking your neighbors wife is a smokeshow is on the list. Looks like it would be there if it really was a concern.
As far as Paul, how do we know he's not just some clown talking out of his rear end?
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: But you can't cite Leviticus.
Mar 9, 2021, 6:16 AM
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Who said it's "really bad"? You're the one making distinctions between the Ten Commandments, which I assume you must think are the "really bad" or important things, and the rest of Scripture. You dismiss what Leviticus says about it, consider Paul a "clown" and are hung up on it not making the big 10 list. Once you dismiss the things in the Bible you don't like, then you can argue for (or against) anything.
Your beliefs (or practices) in this regard don't matter to me. But, it's pretty clear what Scripture says about it. Your problem isn't with me. It's with God.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: But you can't cite Leviticus.
Mar 9, 2021, 7:00 AM
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AFDawg you are correct. In the end the problem all of us will have is with God. What did we do with Jesus? Did we accept his grace by our surrender or did we reject him? There will be no arguments over anything else. Yes or no? Heaven or Hell? Very simple choice and sadly most will reject.
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: But you can't cite Leviticus.
Mar 9, 2021, 10:05 AM
[ in reply to Re: But you can't cite Leviticus. ] |
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And you continue to tap dance and dismiss why homosexuality is not one of the 10 commandments. I did not bring up homosexuality in this thread. One of you guys did as a deflection as to why you couldn't explain the question in the OP as to how you completely ignore Matthew 25 and justify telling poor brown Christians to go die on their side of the border. Now I'm pressuring you on the homosexuality with scripture(or lack thereof), and now you're crawfishing on that. Where are moving the goal posts to next?
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: But you can't cite Leviticus.
Mar 9, 2021, 10:24 AM
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Do you really expect me to answer for why God didn't provide to Moses homosexuality as one of the Ten Commandments? I'll concede He didn't. But, he did address it in Leviticus and Romans, both of which you dismiss. Maybe He believes that should reduce any doubt about it. Would it really matter to you if He had included it as an 11th Commandment?
Back to illegal immigration. I thought I addressed this about a hundred posts before. Maybe I didn't. We are called to compassion. We can debate what that looks like. In my view, it means you see a need and you help if you can. As a nation, we provide help to less fortunate countries. I haven't researched it, but I'm confident you could find a host of Christian charities and organizations who do a host of things for less fortunate in other countries. I don't think we must abolish the law in the name of compassion. I try to provide assistance to the homeless. That doesn't mean I'm moving them in with my family.
I suppose some Christians give less attention to the specific Scripture you cite for the same reasons some non-believers like to throw some verses in the faces of Christians while they ignore other verses. I don't expect you to provide an answer for the latter group.
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: But you can't cite Leviticus.
Mar 9, 2021, 11:35 AM
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The 10C thing is a big deal because Christians use it as a signature reason as to why liberals are evil. Again, God didn't bother to address this as a top 10 concern and Christ himself doesn't mention it. You only find it buried with other issues like eating seafood, braiding hair, and wearing colorful clothes, things which Christians openly violate everyday and don't give a rats rear end about. So why the big deal over gays?
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: But you can't cite Leviticus.
Mar 9, 2021, 12:19 PM
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I haven't called anyone evil and I'm not making a big deal over gay people. I'm pushing back on the narrative that it isn't in the Bible or Scripture is somehow unclear about it.
You continue to reference the fact that Old Testament laws are not followed as grounds to pretend the rules of homosexual conduct don't exist there. You then dismiss what Paul had to say about it in the New Testament. If you're going to ignore or dismiss what Scripture plainly says about it I don't really understand the point of the discussion.
You're free to claim, and maybe rightly so, that some Christians make homosexuality into a big deal while ignoring other sins of which they may be guilty. That may make people guilty of hypocrisy but it doesn't change the fact that Scripture is clear about homosexuality.
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Orange Blooded [4008]
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Re: But you can't cite Leviticus.
Mar 9, 2021, 2:37 PM
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Gay marriage is a big frigging deal. Churches are splitting up over it. And it's debatable as to exactly what Paul(why is his word even considered sacred) was talking about in Romans. Again, Christians have made Gay marriage one of their boogeyman, even though God doesn't seem concerned about it and Christ doesn't even mention it.
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Orange Blooded [3041]
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Re: But you can't cite Leviticus.
Mar 9, 2021, 4:32 PM
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Let me remove any confusion you may have as to what Paul meant: Romans 1:27: "In the same way men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lusts for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."
Now, you may not like that but there is hardly room for debate there. Whether or not Christians make too much of gay marriage or are hypocrits has no bearing whatsoever on what the Bible says about homosexual conduct.
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All-In [42023]
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Re: But you can't cite Leviticus.
Mar 8, 2021, 5:52 PM
[ in reply to Re: But you can't cite Leviticus. ] |
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Not only are the translations extremely suspect, but the mere existence of Paul is as well.
Christianity takes too much Paul over Jesus. Stick with Christ. Ignore Paul. Treat people how Christ instructed. Easy.
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110%er [5648]
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 4, 2021, 2:00 PM
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going back to to the OP...
Why are you ignoring the Christian people one foot on the other side of the border? Do they only become worthy of consideration once they commit a crime and enter our country?
Here's my question to you...if democrats are so interested in helping these people, then why not help them stay their own country and fix it? Wouldn't that help orders of magnitude more people in teh end anyway? Yes, it would.
But, none of those people that were helped will vote democrat from another country will they? There's the real reason.
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Orange Blooded [4008]
TigerPulse: 68%
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Re: For those who know the Bible well
Mar 4, 2021, 2:13 PM
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You start with "going back to the OP", and you proceed to ignore the question in the OP with whataboutism and strawman. I have proved my point with this thread, that many conservative Christians don't really practice Christian values, just a lot of lip service and bs. Lol at how they try to ignore "the sheep and the goats".
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All-In [42023]
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Joined: 11/30/98
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Hold up...
Mar 4, 2021, 2:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: For those who know the Bible well ] |
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Are you advocating that the U.S. government give more financial aid to Mexico and Latin America to create livable situations comparable to our nation?
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: Hold up...
Mar 4, 2021, 10:12 PM
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Are you advocating that the U.S. government give more financial aid to Mexico and Latin America to create livable situations comparable to our nation?
You do know in Central America and parts of Mexico 50k US dollars Is a Half a mil there right? We’ve been giving those countries and Mexico aid for years. In their currency, they are richer than we are!
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All-In [42023]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 11/30/98
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I'm quite aware...
Mar 5, 2021, 8:42 AM
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But what the poster I'm addressing suggested is that we send even more money to create livable situations for the people who try to come here.
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Joined: 7/20/12
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Re: I'm quite aware...
Mar 6, 2021, 12:09 AM
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That’s the problem! We Have been sending them money all of these years. It doesn’t do any good when we give it to their governments and then they sit on it and give their people absolutely nothing! Why not just leave their government out of it and give it to them while they are standing at the border, at least you know they are getting it then!
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