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YOUR BALANCE
Basketball program expectations
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Basketball program expectations


Mar 6, 2020, 8:23 AM

Everyone wants to dogpile on the team and coach because of "inconsistency" and how frustrated they are... Today we sit 15-13 (9-10 in the ACC) with a chance to finish as high as 5th place depending on the results of today's matchups in the ACC... That means there are 4 programs in a basketball conference that did any better then Clemson this year...

Winning road games in the ACC is HARD... Duke is starting to feel the effects on the one and done, they lost to 4 or 5 teams they shouldn't have. Teams that win in the ACC and NCAA Tournaments are Junior Seniors who have chemistry... Duke had Zion last year and couldn't do anything in the NCAA tournament.

Clemson basketball is not a powerhouse and has done nothing to warrant the expectations... Let's go back to 1990...

Cliff Ellis had us in the NCAAT Sweet 16 and we lost with the well known 1 second throw a ball across the court and shoot miracle. Next year? 11-17 (2-12 in the ACC). After that we never did better then the NIT and 18-16 until Rick Barnes came in.

Everyone touts his NCAA tournament appearances, but the ACC was not half the power house in basketball it is now. 2/3 of his appearances came from 18 wins seasons, Brownell has gotten snubbed with 19 or 20 two or three times now.

We then hire Larry Shyatt and we know how that goes.


Oliver Purnell comes in and dominates OOC competition and we get dominated by obviously better ACC teams... We barely get in the NCAAT after a 9-7 acc season twice and get bounced by inferior teams.

Brad Brownell come sin and has Clemson basketball in the ACCT semifinals and a OT loss to UNC... with a team that Is COMPLETELY different from his style of basketball. People keep touting OP player's, but it's not easy for a defensive minded CBB coach to take a offensive minded team to the NCAAT. Clemson get's an unfair seeding for a 21-11 team in the ACC and wins the first four game and 48 hours later was forced to go from Dayton, OH to Tampa, FL where they got beat because they we're clearly gassed compared to a team playing their first game.

OP recruited so well he left Brownell almost all seniors, thus his next two years we're mediocre or terrible because he had no time to recruit when he accepted the job after OP left Clemson in the middle of the night.

2013-2014 he finally gets his players in and loses a guy to the NBA... gee you didn't hear that much over the past 30 years discussed. NCAAT declines a 20-12 ACC team and we make the NIT final four. next year we played in LittleJohn after KJ left and had the record about everyone expected. Greenville year everyone readily accepted as a year Brownell got a pass.

The next year Blossomgame chooses to stay, team starts 11-2 and rises to expectations everyone expects. We have a chance to beat a top 15 UNC team if we make one FT and we miss both. The coach won the game, at some point the player has to make his FTs.

2017 was the tournament year, we lose Gabe Devoe and Grantham and win 20 the next year after the NIT.

2019-2020 we have defeated 3 top 6 teams, FINALLY beat UNC in Chapel Hill, and hopefully will finish 16-14 (10-10 in the ACC) in a year many deemed to likely be terrible. If anything, the chapel hill streak being off our back.

The difference between Dabo and Brownell? Anything Dabo wanted after winning the Atlantic (sports facilities, football offices, and gyms that the rest of our athletic teams are barred from using) was paid for. Brownell was forced to play in a outdated renovated stadium that he could not recruit.

We get the new facilities and recruiting improves, but everyone doesn't understand why we don't have success. Fans have to show up and force the athletic department to support the basketball team, you can't decide to start following in Mid-January every time the football season end and wonder why we aren't having the same level of success. Imagine showing up to watch CFB in November and wondering why we aren't in the NC picture.

Duke is a Basketball powerhouse and will probably finish 25-6 in the regular season, we don't support our program to that level to get that kind of success. You're a guilty party if you don't start tuning in or attending a basketball game until Jan like most of you. Most of the people who posted about some of the losses we took got laughed at by people saying "there's a football game on Saturday."

Our fans try to fire a coach who has hosted 3 regionals and been to one as a 2 seed just because he didn't advance, yea that's not how sports work.

Let's say hypothetically you fire Brownell after he goes in and wins 1 in the ACCT and wins 2 in the NIT. You're gonna have to Convince a coach to come here after we fired a guy who won 20 games 2 years in a row and 19 in the 3rd with a team with 0 returning starters... We couldn't get Will Wade to come when he is a freaking alumni, you aren't replacing Brownell with someone better. Recruiting is getting better, We had some amazing games this year for a young team, this is a team that has the potential to make an exciting run in the ACCT, (NCAA if they catch lightning in a bottle), or NIT. This team has won a world games tournament and could very well win the NIT. That is a reasonable expectation for this year, you cannot change expectations mid-way through the season just because we had some good wins.

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Re: Basketball program expectations


Mar 6, 2020, 8:42 AM

A couple of thoughts since you are touting opinion as fact:

Many more people would agree the ACC was harder for Barnes than it is now. Making the NCAAs with 18 wins bears that out. Having to play teams like Maryland, UNC, and Duke twice is also harder than playing 5 good teams once.

OP did not “barely get in the NCAAT” twice. We were a 5 seed and then a 7 seed twice. That means we were considered to be a top 28 team all 3 seasons. That is not remotely close to the bubble. We also had a top 4 ACC record over those 3 seasons. I would also argue top 4 is not dominated. OP had the team ranked in January or later each of his last 4 seasons. Brownell has had us ranked in January or later only 1 of 10 seasons. That shows how much better of a program we were. OP even played every single ACC game in 2009 as a ranked team. That is impressive consistency given our program’s history.

OP had 2 scholarships in his final class. He landed Marcus Thornton, GA Mr. Basketball, and rolled the other to the next class. So he never really left a gaping hole - transfers did.

Lastly, “everyone readily accepted as a year Brownell got a PSA” is false. He got that year because his buyout was too high after winning 3 NIT games. Lots of fans feel like he never earned that pass of a season. He followed it up with a 2 recruiting classes where 3 of 5 players have already transferred. Had his buyout not been so high, it would have been a perfect year 1 for a coach to lay the groundwork for a fresh recruiting approach.

To the post’ topic the expectations should be simple - be in and around the top 25 and make the NCAA Tournament on a consistent basis. It does not need to be every year, but we should be close and in the conversation every year. This should be the standard because Barnes and OP have proven it is possible here. 1 tournament in 9 years is not cutting it. Being ranked in 2 of 10 seasons isn’t cutting it.

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OP also had some signature wins in the non conference...


Mar 6, 2020, 9:09 AM

Ended up beating teams who made the NCAAT including on the road at Illinois and Old Dominion, and at home or neutral site games like Purdue, Butler, and Miss State. Besides two years ago, when has Brad ever done that?

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Re: OP also had some signature wins in the non conference...


Mar 6, 2020, 9:33 AM

I looked this up a month ago:

The whole beat up on weak teams and stumbled against ACC is fairly inaccurate. Some quick OOC comparisons:

ACC vs B1G Challenge
OP - 5-2
Brownell 3-6

Vs South Carolina
OP 6-1
Brownell - 5-5

Losses to mid majors - i.e. non-P5 and Big East schools
OP - 3 - UAB (2004), Elon (2005), UNC-Charlotte (2008, post UNC heartbreaker)

Brownell - 15 - ODU (2010), CofC (2011), Coastal Carolina (2011), UTEP (2011), Hawaii (2011), Coastal Carolina (2012 again), UMASS (2013), SMU (2014 NIT), Winthrop (2014), Garner Webb (2014), UMASS (2015), Oakland (2017 NIT), Temple (2017), Wichita State (2019 NIT), Yale (2019)

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Re: OP also had some signature wins in the non conference...


Mar 6, 2020, 6:46 PM [ in reply to OP also had some signature wins in the non conference... ]

When has OP won an NCAA game at Clemson? Brownell has won 3, I want wins, not appearances.

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Amen. Clemson basketball was much better under OP.


Mar 6, 2020, 9:32 AM [ in reply to Re: Basketball program expectations ]

After Brownell took over, he had one good year with OP's players, then the program nosedived. That is a demonstrable fact. One has to twist and squirm and perform all kinds of mental gymnastics to try to get around that fact. Before people start with the old argument about how OP ran a gimmick and could not get us past the first round of the NCAA, let me shut that down right now: I don't disagree. It's just not relevant to my point.

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Re: Amen. Clemson basketball was much better under OP.


Mar 6, 2020, 6:49 PM

It nosedived because Oliver Purnell didn't recruit... He left in the middle of the night after the last tournament and Brad had NO time to recruit, what was he supposed to do? We went 13-18 2 years later because Brownell had 1 recruiting class essentially in 2 years. When he got KJ and Blossomgame in we won 20 games, not his fault we got snubbed. Heck, Clemson had duke beat again, but the refs gave it to them (Those watching it live remember this).

I'm not beating a coach up for sending players to the NBA, we all know KJ returns we win 21-22 with Grantham joining the rotation, there was no way Brownell could plan to send KJ Mcdanials to the NBA a year early (Bronwell can't recognize talent?)

Brad has had 2 players drafted and on active rosters, OP had ONE... Recruits under Brad stick, OPS were frauds.

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Re: Basketball program expectations


Mar 6, 2020, 8:46 AM

"Let's say hypothetically you fire Brownell after he goes in and wins 1 in the ACCT and wins 2 in the NIT."

I'm pretty confident Brownell will not get fired in this hypothetical situation. What if we lose the next 2 and are done for the year though?

Hopefully we win a few more and can have a nice end of the season!

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I'm gonna need you to show your work on some of these


Mar 6, 2020, 8:57 AM

things you have presented, because I disagree with most of what you've written...

1) Your first claim about the Barnes era sounds like pure conjecture. How many times did Barnes face a ranked opponent in conference each year on average as compared to the average for Brownell?: "Everyone touts his NCAA tournament appearances, but the ACC was not half the power house in basketball it is now."

2) Next, this statement completely ignores the fact that in OP's last 4 years he went 9-7, 10-6, 9-7, 9-7 in conference, the 10-6 year was a .625 winning %. Is there a single year when CBB has equaled or surpassed that .625 mark? "Oliver Purnell comes in and dominates OOC competition and we get dominated by obviously better ACC teams... We barely get in the NCAAT after a 9-7 acc season twice and get bounced by inferior teams."

You're also ignoring the fact that OP got us to the ACCT finals, and you have a weird definition of "barely" when describing how we got into the tournament.

3) Please tell me what the actual #### you mean with this: "People keep touting OP player's, but it's not easy for a defensive minded CBB coach to take a offensive minded team to the NCAAT."

Are you implying that OP ran an offensive-minded system?

4) This is the big one: "The difference between Dabo and Brownell? Anything Dabo wanted after winning the Atlantic (sports facilities, football offices, and gyms that the rest of our athletic teams are barred from using) was paid for. Brownell was forced to play in a outdated renovated stadium that he could not recruit."

Dabo worked his ### off to get his facilities. People act like it was just handed to him but that's simply not true. Also, if you think that's the only difference between the two, then you just can't be taken seriously at all.


Message was edited by: GWPTiger®


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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


Re: I'm gonna need you to show your work on some of these


Mar 6, 2020, 9:24 AM

I wouldn’t consider OP to be most offensive minded, but we scored a lot. 4 around 1 was actually a good scheme given the teams. Interestingly here are our teams PPG and NCAA rank:

2007-08 79.5 - #19
2008-09 79.0 - #12
2009-10 73.3 - #81

2010-11 68.3 - #185
2011-12 64.5 - #253
2012-13 61.5 - #300
2013-14 63.3 - #324
2014-15 62.7 - #288
2015-16 69-6 - #258
2016-17 75.0 - #127
2017-18 73.3 - #182
2018-19 69.0 - #271
2019-20 66.6 - #336

NCAA basketball is different than 10 years ago, obviously but it is indicative that OP was much better as a coach to get the team to score, which obviously is the point of the game.

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Yes, but as we know OP generated offense through his


Mar 6, 2020, 9:32 AM

defense, living off of the transition offense. Brad is a much better coach in the half court offense than OP was IMO. Both coaches ran/run aggressive defensive systems, Brad just backed it up to the half court as opposed to the full court.

But for the OP in this thread to imply that Brad took over an offensive minded team is at best a really weird statement to make.

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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


If one buys into the poor facilities argument, one must


Mar 6, 2020, 9:45 AM [ in reply to I'm gonna need you to show your work on some of these ]

believe that our lack of facilities, almost overnight, became an insurmountable hurdle. OP went to the NCAA tournament 3 consecutive years and averaged 4th place finish in conference. Brownell had a similarly good year in his first season. Facilities were not a limiting factor. Then, BAM! The very next year, our poor facilities kicked in and our basketball program fell off of a cliff, and from that point forward, helped destroy any chance Clemson had of being good in basketball.

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Re: Basketball program expectations


Mar 6, 2020, 9:09 AM

There are some very good oped’s here. I think Tiger basketball should be:
Top half of acc every year
NCAA tourney most years
NIT if not in NCAA’s
and i don’t think it is unreasonable to expect to be better than most of the 100++ teams out there, therefore in the top 25 of rankings every year

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Class of ‘71. Went through “rat season” and glad I did.


Our history is bad, so we can't expect to be good.


Mar 6, 2020, 9:15 AM

At least not objectively good. Right. That's the most pathetic thing I've ever heard, and an example of exactly what's wrong. If we are using out mediocre history as some kind of a baseline, we have already lost. We have accepted and embraced a loser mentality. As a fan base, we have been beat down for so long, many of us have bought into falsehoods and can't get our heads around the reality that we can have a good basketball program at Clemson, and it won't take 20 years.

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Re: Our history is bad, so we can't expect to be good.


Mar 6, 2020, 6:59 PM

I don't think we shouldn't expect to be bad.

Everyone whines about that Yale loss, everyone was busy talking football while the BB team played in front of 2,000 fans. I think 8,500 people screaming to the top of their lungs would've disrupted Yale a bit. It's almost as if HFO is helpful and it doesn't exist in OOC.

It pisses me off when I spend my hard-earned money in November and December to support these guys while people who didn't go to 1 dang game in those months come on here and bark expectations at the coach.

Wanna win those games? Come be apart, the guys love playing in front of a crowd, it's boring to play in front of 2,000 people.

VT we we're clearly marred by injuries and had a 100% starting lineup and we're in the game until the end. I'm excited about next year and haven't given up on this year. I think we can make a run in the tournament. Get the 5 seed and let's beat the crap team in the second round and win the qtr final game and at least be on the bubble.

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The new basketball facilities opened in October 2016.


Mar 6, 2020, 11:19 AM

Next year will be year 5 with the new facilities and year 11 for Brownell.

Progress has been about as slow as it could possibly be.

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Re: The new basketball facilities opened in October 2016.


Mar 6, 2020, 6:55 PM

And you will conveniently leave out to support your argument that in 4 years Brownell had Zion Williamson silently committed and hasthe #1 overall player in SC this year... The program has beaten UNC in chapel hill, that alone made this season a success for me.

It's amazing how Zion somehow had $350,000 for a house after signing with Duke.

If you get these new recruits in next year and Brownell underperforms, you can fire him. His contract expires next year, so unless you intend on killing hot recruiting (for Clemson standard), then you will have to extend him next year.

The expectation should be 20 wins. That would give Clemson BB 3 straight 20 wins seasons.

What's the infatuation with going to the tournament and losing? Grantham plays the whole season Clemson could've won the ACCT as much as getting to the elite 8 or final four (I think Grantham makes a 4 point difference vs Kansas). Clemson won 19 games the next year and didn't make it, don't act like we went 16-14. 20 wins is a successful season at Clemson.

Message was edited by: Clemsontiger179812®


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