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Orange Blooded [2303]
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Breaking down the slide
Jun 2, 2014, 7:41 AM
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People talk about Leggett's accomplishments, and there are many, and he has won a ton of games, but there is a clear slide in this program from the early post-Wilhelm era.
Just take a look at the five-year increments (six years for the most recent group).
This doesn't take into style of play (all that bunting and zero power), the lack of strong pitching and terrible fundamentals (defense and baserunning).
This is just wins and losses:
57-18
54-14
51-17
41-23
43-16
246-88 (73.6)
42-27
51-18
41-22
54-17
39-22
217-106 (67.2)
39-26
43-23
53-16
41-23
31-27
207-115 (64.3)
44-22
45-25
43-20
35-28
40-22
36-24
243-141 (63.3)
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Orange Blooded [2303]
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Re: Breaking down the slide
Jun 2, 2014, 8:15 AM
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434-172 (71.6) with Corbin
489-278 (63.8) without
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CU Medallion [64575]
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As further evidence....
Jun 2, 2014, 8:16 AM
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since their last CWS appearance in 2010, Leggett and his teams haven't played in a Super Regional and haven't hosted a Regional. The last Regional Clemson hosted was an embarrassing blowout loss to UConn.
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Orange Blooded [2303]
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Re: As further evidence....
Jun 2, 2014, 8:39 AM
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Not sure why people blindly follow him.
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Orange Blooded [1051]
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Re: As further evidence....
Jun 2, 2014, 9:57 AM
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because deroberts said jackleg is a hof coach and we are not on a level playing field with our opponents.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Because his overall body of work is better than 90% of
Jun 2, 2014, 1:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: As further evidence.... ] |
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Clemson coaches in our long history.
He is sliding from a peak that he engineered. And we have some pretty significant disadvantages in terms of scholarships and player facilities.
There are next to no coaches over the last 10 years who have had a significantly better resume when you factor in final rankings.
Programs like LSU, Florida, Georgia Tech and Texas have all much much worse collapses during that time span than we have.
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Hall of Famer [21846]
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I dont give a d@mn about other programs. Numbers don't lie
Jun 2, 2014, 1:57 PM
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and they clearly show a decline in our program.
You can say he started on a high note but let me ask you this, how would we all feel about Dabo if he goes 9-4 or worse the next 4-5 years?
I'll admit that Jack and his teams have had some great years over his tenure, however, the last 4 have just been bad. Let's also not forget that his teams have routinely "crapped the bed" on the biggest stage in the sport.
I don't know who to bring in to make it better and am thankful that's not my job(if it comes to that), but I truly believe that it starts and ends with Jack and I'm beyond disappointed since our last CWS appearance.
Message was edited by: Anonymous08®
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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If you don't give a #### about other programs then you are
Jun 2, 2014, 2:18 PM
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completely unreliable as an analysts of the success of our program.
Everything in sports is relative. We don't play ourselves, and there are no judges handing out scores. We play against other teams, who have other coaches. If a coach is good, he is good RELATIVE to other coaches. If you ignore this, then you are unwittingly admitting that you are terrible at judging the state of our program, not to mention analysis in general.
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Hall of Famer [21846]
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You wanting to compare Jack to other coaches to prove his
Jun 2, 2014, 2:22 PM
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worth is meaningless. Other programs Consistency or lack of is meaningless when it comes to CLEMSON.
I don't care if another coach/team rise and fall.
I care solely about the state of CLEMSON Baseball.
Just because Bobby Bowden had down years didn't mean Tommy was a better coach....
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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You are being illogical and you don't even realize it.
Jun 2, 2014, 2:29 PM
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You can't judge Clemson in a vacuum. Our wins and losses, our records, our postseason play, everything hinges on whether or not we are better than other schools. Getting rid of a coach means you have to find another one. Every Clemson game we have ever won or lost involved another school.
You are stuck in a cycle of oversimplification and emotion that will keep you on your ridiculous path. This response is for others who are influenced by the simple repetition. My posts involved reason, yours involve cliches and emotional declarations. You are convinced that I care more about a coach than I do Clemson, and you probably are not capable of realizing that isn't the case.
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Hall of Famer [21846]
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Show me teams that dictate Clemson Wins and Losses....***
Jun 2, 2014, 2:35 PM
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And don't tell me the team we play against....
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Hall of Famer [21846]
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And you are 100% correct
Jun 2, 2014, 2:38 PM
[ in reply to You are being illogical and you don't even realize it. ] |
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"everything hinges on whether or not e are better to other schools"
I'm guessing you are saying it hinges on whether we are better than other schools....
Our decline in Wins/Postseason Wins/Midweek Wins, etc. show that are not as good as we have been or should be....We have major talent across the board and they are not and have not been playing to their potential.
Guess who that falls on......JACK
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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Thirteen hundred victories is a testament to Jack, not to
Jun 2, 2014, 3:50 PM
[ in reply to You wanting to compare Jack to other coaches to prove his ] |
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some other coach or team. You don't just up and fire someone that has been that successful at Clemson. People that make major decisions don't rely on emotions, they take the full body of work on an indiviual. I am completely neutral on which way Clemson should go, just pointing out that Jack has been successful regardless if posters have a short memory or not.
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Orange Blooded [2609]
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How bout them Terps!!!!! Good send off win***
Jun 2, 2014, 8:42 AM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Breaking down the slide
Jun 2, 2014, 10:14 AM
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So we did NOT fire Jack when he only won 31 or 35 games, but we need to fire Jack for only winning 36 games? Interesting.
This is beating a dead horse IMO. What concerns me is that if CLEMSON fires Jack, they will replace him with an unknown that may or may not be as successful.
For me - Jack is fine. The players that we have recruited? Not sure about most of those guys. Too many errors, not enough hitting, and the pitching staff is not deep enough to maintain leads or come from behind to win enough games. If you need to see the difference, watch teams like Vandy with their fielding and pitching and hitting to see how far we are from being a good team. Vandy is a bad example probably, because Corbin is there now. We need to know what other factors make these players as inefficient at what they do. Is it ALL just coaching? Or are we recruiting the wrong players? Some of these players look like they have no clue as to what they are doing many times, but that could be bad coaching as well as the wrong players.
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Oculus Spirit [75714]
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I think we can frame this one boys.
Jun 2, 2014, 10:21 AM
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recruiting the wrong guys also falls on Jack ya know.
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Oculus Spirit [90819]
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Gotta beat Coots. What's our record with them in this time
Jun 2, 2014, 10:31 AM
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frame, I wonder? GoTiGERS!
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Oculus Spirit [75714]
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It has been truly awful since the 2010 CWS.
Jun 2, 2014, 10:56 AM
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Unlike the football team, the baseball team isn't having otherwise solid seasons. I would define a solid season as hosting a regional.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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It's been awful compared to Jack's previous resume.
Jun 2, 2014, 1:37 PM
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Compared to the rest of the baseball world, it's been pretty good. I agree that this year was a failure, but I think we do more harm than good by firing/forcing out JL.
He's earned a couple more years of slack, considering his track record.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: It's been awful compared to Jack's previous resume.
Jun 2, 2014, 2:09 PM
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One Championship in nearly two decades. What has he earned?
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Again, your singling out of trophies is arbitrary.
Jun 2, 2014, 2:16 PM
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That is not the common metric for judging a successful program. There are programs with ten "championships" in the last 25 years who are light years behind us as a program overall. Would you rather have Georgia Tech's last ten years? Or Fresno State's? You certainly are allowed to... but most reasonable people wouldn't.
Ignoring winning regionals and super regionals and CWS wins, simply because they are not traditionally associated with trophies is ridiculous and random. That is only something that a biased person, looking for an angle, would do. It makes no sense otherwise.
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Oculus Spirit [75714]
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A couple of years ago, I agreed. Now we have a true trend.
Jun 2, 2014, 2:19 PM
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If you want the baseball team to slide as far as the football team did before that was fixed, keep your head up Jacks ####.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Comparing football and baseball is dumb.
Jun 2, 2014, 2:25 PM
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Tommy Bowden's situation and Jack Leggett's situation are completely different. Anyone who doesn't already get that, is doomed to oversimplify all sorts of things.
And I think we fired Tommy Bowden at the right time. I was against his raise/extension, and I wanted him fired the day after the Bama loss. I think it would have been premature to fire him before that based on the evidence. He helped improve our program from the lows of the 90's.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Again, your singling out of trophies is arbitrary.
Jun 2, 2014, 2:21 PM
[ in reply to Again, your singling out of trophies is arbitrary. ] |
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You only view it as random because it doesnt fit your argument.
Fact is we play #### poor fundamentals under coach jack.
We traditionally are ranked not in the top 50 in fielding. Our baserunning is atrocious. We are not a good fundamental team. Anyone still defending him as a coach does not understand the game.
Also stop blaming recruiting hurdles. Those have not always been there for the past two decades. We also rank pretty good in recruiting rankings.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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To be clear, I'm not blaming this year on recruiting hurdles
Jun 2, 2014, 2:36 PM
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This year was a failure across the board. Players, coaches, everybody.
But they have been something that our coaches have had to overcome and work around. This is a credit to our coaches.
And I'm not claiming it's random because it doesn't fit my argument. I'm claiming it's random because coaches, players and the general community of college baseball doesn't put as much into trophies as you do. Coaches and programs are judged on the postseason. Coaches obviously have worked to reduce their focus on conference tournaments. SCAR does it, all the ACC coaches have publicly worked to get the ACC tourney reduced in size/length. The only reason some Clemson fans even bring it up is because it helps our argument against SCAR football. That somehow bled over into baseball.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: To be clear, I'm not blaming this year on recruiting hurdles
Jun 2, 2014, 2:37 PM
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Problem is we also are no where near the top of the ACC during the regular season.
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Oculus Spirit [75714]
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Just wait. eventually he'll argue that the other ACC
Jun 2, 2014, 2:39 PM
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schools decided take baseball more seriously so it isn't as easy as it used to be. Then we will be talking about the Tommy Bowden philosophy.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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So you don't notice the huge investment in baseball
Jun 2, 2014, 2:51 PM
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that schools like UNC and UVA have made lately? You think it's just because their players want it more that they are so much better now?
You think it's a random accident that our recruiting improved after the West Zone?
I'll tell you this right now, investment in a program means a lot more than how many wins you had in conference 20 years ago. What fans are used to is worthless in keeping a good program. Investment makes the difference.
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All-TigerNet [14467]
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Re: So you don't notice the huge investment in baseball
Jun 2, 2014, 2:54 PM
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there you go making sense again.
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Oculus Spirit [75714]
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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I feel like I've already addressed that head-on.
Jun 2, 2014, 2:56 PM
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The construction was for fans... not players. The player facilities, which are the projects that are relevant to recruiting, are sorely lacking. Please see links provided in a thread below.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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You are right. And I don't blame the tourny format for our
Jun 2, 2014, 2:44 PM
[ in reply to Re: To be clear, I'm not blaming this year on recruiting hurdles ] |
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poor tournament performance. I wish we won the d@mn thing more often. I personally care. But to coaches and programs, the conference tournies only matter for positioning in the real tourney. Making the CWS is more important than winning your conference tourny.
But our regular season failures must be improved.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Oculus Spirit [75714]
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What are these and why weren't these a
Jun 2, 2014, 2:20 PM
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problem years ago?
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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They have been a problem that we have overcome.
Jun 2, 2014, 2:41 PM
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Sort of like Marines are always awesome despite almost never having enough spare parts and supplies relative to other branches.
It is more difficult for Clemson to bring in JUCO talent. The admin appears to be addressing this finally.
Other schools have ways to get baseball players more scholarship/endowment money. This is especially important in baseball as there are so few schollies available.
Despite our recent stadium upgrades, our player facilities have been lacking for quite some time now. We all see what the West Zone did for our football program.
I am not blaming our terrible season on these disadvantages. I am saying that our success has been despite these significant disadvantages, To ignore them in intellectually irresponsible.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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Re: They have been a problem that we have overcome.
Jun 2, 2014, 3:25 PM
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decisions, decisions, decisions...
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Hey, you know what... which one would you rather be in...
Jun 2, 2014, 3:29 PM
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if a tornado was outside? Uh... I like our's. It looks like a fecking fallout shelter.
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All-In [32644]
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CU Guru [1123]
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Hall of Famer [21846]
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Only if you let your emotion do your thinking.
Jun 2, 2014, 3:01 PM
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Going to the Final Four is an awesome accomplishment.
Losing to your rival twice sucks horribly... but they were the best team in the country.
We beat them 2 out of 3 in the regular season and lost twice in a row after that. I was depressed for a long time after that game, but it was still an awesome year. Our rivals earned their championship.
Thanks for ironically using "intellectually irresponsible" though.
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Hall of Famer [21846]
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thanks for not addressing the 4 seasons after that....***
Jun 2, 2014, 3:07 PM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Your post, that I responded to, was about our last CWS.
Jun 2, 2014, 3:10 PM
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Why would I start randomly talking about something else? I thought people liked it when others stayed on topic.
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Hall of Famer [21846]
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Reading comprehension not a strong suit?
Jun 2, 2014, 3:11 PM
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"our most recent success was in 2010"....
Meaning that since then we have underachieved and "Ignoring this is intellectually irresponsible..."
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Oh... well I agree that we have underachieved compared to my
Jun 2, 2014, 3:19 PM
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expectations for the last 4 years. Losing to Liberty twice was ugly, and this year was much worse. But, based on the evidence, I expect us to have a much better year next year. But my expectations are unnaturally high because I am spoiled to be a fan of such a historically successful baseball program. That just goes to my point about other schools. The nature of baseball prevents all but a handful of teams consistently doing better than we have over the last 5 years.
Hell even UNC and Duke basketball has off years, but I would trade our recent w/l history with their's in a heartbeat. We should judge coaches based on what they do with the tools they are given. The fact that we have done so well relative to other schools who have recently left us in the dust in terms of investment, and avoid total collapses unlike the vast majority of elite programs means that I think it would do more harm than good to remove our current head coach. I have more reason to trust him than...well... you.
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CU Guru [1123]
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Re: Breaking down the slide
Jun 2, 2014, 3:26 PM
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This is very similar to my post a few months back, good work!
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