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Replies: 129
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Orange Blooded [4965]
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Recruit [83]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
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Feb 8, 2023, 4:51 PM
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not surprised......at all
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Head Coach [762]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 10, 2023, 9:17 AM
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Let's not compare Dabo to Kernel Sanders, please!
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All-In [44043]
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I didn’t think we were allowed to compare anyone to Dabo.***
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Feb 10, 2023, 10:21 PM
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Freshman [-79]
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Like who, Nick Saban? Kirby hasn't reached Dabo's level yet,
Feb 10, 2023, 11:17 PM
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and Dabo ain't done.
Obviously that wasn't the point of the OP. You probably already know that, but you can't resist an opportunity to troll.
Rinse. Repeat.
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Asst Coach [707]
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Re: Like who, Nick Saban? Kirby hasn't reached Dabo's level yet,
Feb 12, 2023, 7:54 PM
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Why not? Kirby has coached for 7 years, he has an 84.4% win percentage, is 8-2 in the post-season, is 5-1 in big 5 bowl wins, and 2 national championships. Dabo has coached longer than Kirby, and has more conference titles (though I don't think anyone is equating an ACC championship with an SEC championship). However, his winning percentage is 80.5%, is 11-8 in the post-season, and is 6-4 in big 5 bowls.
And you say Dabo is not done (I hope that's right), but there's no doubt our program has lost a step while Smart is coming off of the #2 recruiting class and 2 consecutive titles. Smart is 6 years younger, Saban is going to retire before long meaning Smart's trip to the playoffs will be even easier, and if you had to put money on who will win another championship, who are you going to pick?
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All-TigerNet [10824]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
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11
Feb 8, 2023, 5:30 PM
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If God does not exist, I wonder why they would care at all?
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CU Medallion [52316]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
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Feb 8, 2023, 5:49 PM
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Good question.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
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Feb 8, 2023, 6:10 PM
[ in reply to Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders ] |
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Always wondered same thing. I used to work with a true atheist. He would participate in our prayers. He said "My hobby is golf. Your hobby is religion. You don't get offended at me talking about golf. I don't get offended at you praying. You don't get offended when I invite you to play golf and I don't get offended when you invite me to church."
The back story is I hate golf. That is why he used it as his example.
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Recruit [94]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 9, 2023, 5:22 AM
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Always wondered same thing. I used to work with a true atheist. He would participate in our prayers. He said "My hobby is golf. Your hobby is religion. You don't get offended at me talking about golf. I don't get offended at you praying. You don't get offended when I invite you to play golf and I don't get offended when you invite me to church."
The back story is I hate golf. That is why he used it as his example.
Lol. Awesome!
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Orange Blooded [4820]
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CU Guru [1215]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 11, 2023, 11:10 AM
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If you don’t believe in God stay out of Clemson totally
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CU Guru [1672]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 12, 2023, 10:48 PM
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I know, right!
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CU Medallion [61820]
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Orange Blooded [2218]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
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Feb 9, 2023, 12:53 PM
[ in reply to Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders ] |
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I actually agree with them on this, and I’m not an atheist. The reason I agree with them is because there are 1000000000 definitions of God. The anthromorphic Yawweh is much different than the impersonal Brahman, or the Dabo. So unless Deion is going to allow Hare Krishna chants or meditation on the Dao along with those Christian prayers, he needs to stop.
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Orange Blooded [3616]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
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Feb 10, 2023, 8:18 PM
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As demonstrated by the lives of those who actually wrote the First Amendment, the problem doesn’t arise from public recognition of the Creator and the need to respect His will and purpose in our lives and the lives of others.
The problems come from PROHIBITING recognition of the Creator and the need to respect His will and purpose in our lives and the lives of others.
So if Deion doesn’t make prayer participation compulsory—respect, yes, participation, no—or control which God is prayed to, he is practicing actual freedom of religion.
I realize that some may still argue about the definition of “compulsory”. But the short answer is that no definition of preventing “compulsory” prayer allows you to “prohibit” the actual freedom. The Warren Court prohibited freedom of religion by restricting prayer. Several courts since then have found accommodations for public prayer.
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Orange Blooded [2218]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 10, 2023, 10:22 PM
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The founding fathers were Deist. Diest do not believe in the anthropomorphic evangelical personal god, so they would never think to pray to it.
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All-In [44043]
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That’s actually not true.
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Feb 10, 2023, 10:28 PM
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Benjamin Franklin prayed. He even called for prayer at the Constitutional Convention in 1787.
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Orange Blooded [2218]
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Re: That’s actually not true.
Feb 10, 2023, 10:44 PM
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People live contradictory lives. And yes, the founding fathers were followers of “rational religion”, which was an offshoot of Christianity without a personal intervening God. Thomas Jefferson created his own Bible and tore out all the miracle stories and just left the parables and moral teachings of Jesus.
There are atheist who pray when #### hirs the fan but they’re still atheist.
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All-In [44043]
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Sure, and Martin Luther took out books of the Bible he didn’t like
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Feb 10, 2023, 10:57 PM
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in the name of “reformation,” got a few people to agree with him, and the Protestant sect of Christianity was born (and is still thriving today).
So yes, some people try to change the details of what they believe in. But it’s incorrect to say that the founding fathers were deists and therefore didn’t pray. They clearly did.
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Orange Blooded [2218]
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Re: Sure, and Martin Luther took out books of the Bible he didn’t like
Feb 10, 2023, 11:11 PM
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Deist may pray, but they do NOT believe in an intervening God, nor do they believe in miracles or the supernatural. And again, the founding fathers were deist. And deism was just an offshoot of Christianity, so of course you still see them utilizing Christianity language and even participating in Christian religious activities as well. They most certainly borrowed the Christian moral message for their own “rational religion”.
The bottom line is, the Diest god is nothing like the personal God of the Bible who is constantly intervening in human affairs. Majority of the founding fathers did not subscribe to the latter.
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Orange Blooded [4674]
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Re: Sure, and Martin Luther took out books of the Bible he didn’t like
Feb 11, 2023, 12:44 AM
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The “founding fathers” implies all were deist. This is incorrect. Jefferson was but not all of them.
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Orange Blooded [2218]
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Re: Sure, and Martin Luther took out books of the Bible he didn’t like
Feb 10, 2023, 11:15 PM
[ in reply to Sure, and Martin Luther took out books of the Bible he didn’t like ] |
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Also, Martin Luther was a racist, anti semite. The fact he has a church named after him after his disgusting rants about Jews (need we forget that Jesus was a Jewish man), just shows you how corrupt Christianity has become since the very early church.
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Orange Blooded [3616]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
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Feb 11, 2023, 12:01 AM
[ in reply to Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders ] |
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56 signers of the DoI from 13 colonies that all had differing degrees of religious freedom/coercion, because the First Amendment hadn’t yet been adopted, and yet you want to pretend that all 56 men had identical beliefs and were all rigid in the “God is a libertarian” that lazy history has told you they believed.
I’m sorry if I seem to be scoffing at you, but I am. History is taught by lazy people, because their students are lazy people.
Your thinking stinks of laziness. The greatness of our FFs lay in their industry, not necessarily in their business, but in their willingness to think hard, work hard and discuss hard. They rarely took cop outs like “why should I pray to a Master Clockmaker?” like you would have us think. They knew they were creating a new society, and they respected the need for deep thinking and a truthful approach to who Man is, Who God is and a reasonable approach to what each could be relied on for. Hence, numerous references to both in our founding documents.
This is documented by their writings, which patriotic Americans still treasure, read and share with their kids. (Gasp!)
Every one of the 56 signers travelled( at some point earlier in their lives) to hear the preaching of the greatest preacher of modern history, George Whitefield, an evangelical Christian if there ever was one. I’m not saying they were converted by his preaching, but back in those days you didn’t listen to some famous preacher by turning on the radio in your car or while sitting in your La-z-boy. You made an industrious commitment to leave home, ride or walk to the event, plop your butt down (or stand) for a few hours and listen to the persuasive, authoritative oration from the Scriptures.
Yet you would have us believe that all 56 of these men were so rigid in their Deism that they were not in the slightest bit intellectually or spiritually curious. You believe they were intolerant in their tolerance, and the only times they sought Divine Guidance was when they needed it.
THEY NEEDED IT ALL THE TIME, and they were wise enough to know it. They were rebelling against an Empire, risking their lives and fortunes without the support of their neighbors and establishing a nation. This is not something you do from the casualness of your laptop on the evenings when no game is being played.
Have a little respect. These men were greater than you and far superior in every way. If they were wrong, they at least erred while daring greatly and leaving their posterity with every opportunity possible. That makes them far better than us. We try to tell people what they can’t believe rather than what they can. This is utterly destructive and lazy thinking.
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Orange Blooded [2218]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
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Feb 11, 2023, 12:46 AM
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I’m not even going to take the time to read this post, because from what you’ve already posted in this thread, I can tell that you’ve lived a sheltered, coddled life where you were taught the Bible is God’s literal word, and that’s is 100% accurate on historical matters. That is lazy, and quite frankly, sheltered thinking.
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Orange Blooded [3362]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 8, 2023, 5:36 PM
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The Colorado administration will not be friendly to his Christian beliefs. Probably something to watch that could drive a wedge between he and the administration.
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Athletic Dir [865]
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Reason being? I think experiences everywhere show that if he
Feb 8, 2023, 6:12 PM
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is winning on the football field, not much else matters. Especially little controversies like this. But if he's losing on the field, things blow up to drive wedges.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 9, 2023, 10:01 AM
[ in reply to Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders ] |
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The admin knew what they were hiring. SCOTUS latest ruling was plain. Freedom of religion does not grant freedom from religion. It also tossed the "feeling of compulsory" argument. Prayer will now have to be proven to be compelled.The Trump SCOTUS changed the ball game. The freedom from religion group is just trying to "buffalo" Colorado into violating Deions rights.
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All-In [31303]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
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Feb 8, 2023, 5:39 PM
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Yep lot of folks are on us God fearing folks that say there is no God. If you don’t believe why you worried about those that do.
Our laws regarding murder and theft are basically ones that were mentioned in the Old Testament and even a few not followed anymore.
I think most don’t believe because it steps on their toes.
America is doing away with God and darn if society has started to become unrecognizable. Amazing how that works.
I definitely expect the atheist on this board to TD my post and I’m ok with that.
Message was edited by: rhpltmeg®
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
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Feb 8, 2023, 5:59 PM
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Jesus said go in your closet and pray. Why are ya'll doing it in public anyway? Deion and Dabo are pharisees praying on the street corner for everybody to see while they rake in millions of dollars a year. Didn't Jesus also say something about a rich man, a camel and a needle?
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Hall of Famer [24208]
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smh
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Feb 8, 2023, 6:35 PM
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Hall of Famer [22281]
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Are you saying that...
7
7
Feb 8, 2023, 7:13 PM
[ in reply to Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders ] |
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...after a careful study of the Bible, you learned that Jesus never prayed in public? Are you saying that Jesus never talked about God in public and told his disciples that they should not discuss their belief in God in public?
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: Are you saying that...
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Feb 8, 2023, 9:10 PM
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From Matthew 6....
Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen.
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CU Guru [1577]
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Re: Are you saying that...
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Feb 8, 2023, 10:01 PM
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You do realize that praying and spreading the gospel are two different things.
And do you realize who he was talking about don’t you? He was trying to make a point about the Pharisees wailing on the street corners for all to see.
Maybe some more Bible study is in order.
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Hall of Famer [22281]
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I've discovered that ...
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Feb 9, 2023, 7:37 AM
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... people who don't believe the Bible is the Word of God and don't believe Jesus is God and don't even believe in God, have a tendency to take a verse out of context.
The Bible says, "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'."
These guys would quote that verse and say, "The Bible says, 'There is no God'."
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110%er [9028]
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Re: "word of God" I refer you to John 1:1***
Feb 9, 2023, 9:35 AM
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Hall of Famer [22281]
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In the beginning...
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Feb 9, 2023, 4:59 PM
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...was the word, and the word was with God, and the ford was God.
John 1:14 - The word became flesh, and dwelt among us.
Amen!
The Bible is the written word of God. Jesus is the living word of God.
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: In the beginning...
Feb 10, 2023, 11:38 AM
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When that verse was written decades after jesus lived there was no "bible".
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Hall of Famer [22281]
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Very interesting.
Feb 12, 2023, 9:23 PM
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You tell us that Jesus told us not to pray in public. And, now you are telling us that when He said that, there was no Bible. So, how do you know He even said it?
If you don't trust the Bible to be historically true, then why are you trying to tell us what it says?
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: Are you saying that...
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Feb 9, 2023, 7:49 AM
[ in reply to Re: Are you saying that... ] |
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Dabo and Deion are supposedly not spreading the gospel which would be illegal for a coach of a public university.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: Are you saying that...
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Feb 9, 2023, 12:34 PM
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It is actually not illegal at all. You really need to read what SCOTUS writes and stop bading your knowledge in propaganda talking points.
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: Are you saying that...
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Feb 9, 2023, 7:51 AM
[ in reply to Re: Are you saying that... ] |
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Kind of like a coach pointing to the sky at the top of the hill for 80,000 to see....
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Letterman [290]
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CU Guru [1370]
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Re: Are you saying that...
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Feb 9, 2023, 9:08 AM
[ in reply to Re: Are you saying that... ] |
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His audience was to the Pharisees and the religious hypocrites of the day. If the Holy Spirit calls on you to pray and you are walking in the Spirit you will pray wherever that place may be, because it is Christ in you honoring the Father and you are just the Vessel being led.
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Orange Blooded [3212]
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Re: Are you saying that...
Feb 9, 2023, 9:47 AM
[ in reply to Are you saying that... ] |
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You ever heard of the word context?
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Trainer [29]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 8, 2023, 8:01 PM
[ in reply to Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders ] |
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Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? NIV : Matthew 7:3 Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? Listeners Heard: What, however, do you see?
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CU Guru [1534]
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CU Guru [1589]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 9, 2023, 10:15 AM
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Where did I say there was no god?
I simply pointed out that people like Deion and Dabo are ironically going against what Jesus said.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 9, 2023, 12:31 PM
[ in reply to Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders ] |
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Jesus comment was specific to a circumstance. It was dealing with form prayers that were prayed only to glorify the one praying.
To flip the coin on you, Jesus main ministry was teaching and preaching. It was most definitely done in public. Jesus prayed in public.
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 9, 2023, 12:42 PM
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Like another poster said, these coaches seem to be trying to draw attention to themselves.
Jesus taught but when he prayed, he mostly went off on his own, and the passage from Matthew 6 was in the context of Jesus teaching about how to pray to his disciples.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 9, 2023, 10:22 PM
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Jesus prayed in public and he preached in public. Make you feel better of Dabo and Deion preached more and taught The Scriptures more?
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 10, 2023, 11:42 AM
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He prayed with his followers. He didn't do it as an F you to non believers.
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Legend [16935]
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 10, 2023, 11:40 AM
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I see you forgot to put on your WWJD bracelet this morning.
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Orange Blooded [3616]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 10, 2023, 8:38 PM
[ in reply to Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders ] |
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Jesus said go in your closet and pray. Why are ya'll doing it in public anyway? Deion and Dabo are pharisees praying on the street corner for everybody to see while they rake in millions of dollars a year. Didn't Jesus also say something about a rich man, a camel and a needle?
Soooo, are you praying in your closet?
If not, you’re a hypocrite.
Or an unbeliever. In either case, your opinion is uninformed and irrelevant, because Jesus taught and demonstrated many times that communication with the God you respect is good, even if it’s public, so long as you’re following the pattern He demonstrated in Luke 18.
Instead of judging inappropriately, read that passage for context. It could change your life.
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
3
Feb 8, 2023, 6:17 PM
[ in reply to Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders ] |
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A few points: God doesn't want to be feared. For reference, please see Matthew 22:37
A lot more people believe, than orthodox, evangelical christians think, because their beliefs are more narrow than mainstream Christians, or even nominal Christians.
America can't do away with God. Society may not reflect a strict orthodox belief, especially as beliefs become more heterodox. God is.
There are many, many, many people in the world who's practice of love, justice and grace are very Christlike, but they don't identify as Christians. God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs.
Obviously, just my opinion based on where I am in my faith journey.
BTW - I think the people that go after people like Dabo, Tebo and Deion are as ignorant and intolerant as they accuse evangelical Christians of being.
Final edit - I re-read this and realized how smarmy and smug it sounded. I'm leaving it up to remind myself to not be a #####.
Message was edited by: 1portroyalty®
Message was edited by: 1portroyalty®
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God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs?
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Feb 8, 2023, 7:30 PM
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What grounds do you have to back up that statement?
John 5:24, John 6:35, John 7:38, John 11:25, John 11:26, John 12:44, John 12:46, John 14:1, John 17:8, John 17:20, John 17:21
And, that is just one book in the Bible. And, those are the words of Jesus.
John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
I think my belief is extremely important to God.
Message was edited by: bretfsu®
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Re: God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs?
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1
Feb 8, 2023, 9:19 PM
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How do you know god inspired those writings?
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Letterman [290]
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Re: God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs?
Feb 9, 2023, 6:31 AM
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“HoW dO YoU kNoW GoD inSpiREd ThE BiBLe?”
That’s you. That’s how you sound.
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Re: God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs?
Feb 9, 2023, 8:13 AM
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God inspired the Bible - but she did not write the Bible. That is precisely the point behind my arguments. Thank you for saying that!
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Re: God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs?
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Feb 9, 2023, 1:04 PM
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Wether God inspired the Bible or not, it’s not meant to be taking literally. It’s a book of symbols that points to transcendence, and then it is to be negated, because a book could never actually conceptualize God, because God us infinite.
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Re: God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs?
Feb 10, 2023, 9:15 PM
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If the Bible says that God inspired it, and it does, it’s up to you to prove differently if you want to disagree with it and be treated as credible. The Bible is more credible, consistent and historically accurate than you, no contest, but if you want to make a case for yourself, go for it.
If the Bible says it is to be treated literally, and it does, it is up to you to prove differently if you want to disagree with it and be treated as credible. The Bible is more credible, consistent and historically accurate than you, no contest, but if you want to make a case for yourself, go for it.
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Re: God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs?
Feb 10, 2023, 10:27 PM
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The Bible is not historical accurate, critical scholarship has proved that. Only evangelical fundamentalists Christian’s believe that nonsense. You are living under a rock if you honestly believe that. The gospels are mythos history, legendary accounts of Jesus. They’re not eyewitness testimony, there were written 70 years after the events, and we don’t even really know who the authors were. And I’m not an atheist or materialist, I think both of those positions are just as idiotic as believing the Bible is a reliable source of history.
Here’s a quote from my favorite Christian, and arguably the most influential and most important theologians in Church history:
“ For who that has understanding will suppose that the first, and second, and third day, and the evening and the morning, existed without a sun, and moon, and stars? and that the first day was, as it were, also without a sky? And who is so foolish as to suppose that God, after the manner of a husbandman, planted a paradise in Eden, towards the east, and placed in it a tree of life, visible and palpable, so that one tasting of the fruit by the bodily teeth obtained life? and again, that one was a partaker of good and evil by masticating what was taken from the tree? And if God is said to walk in the paradise in the evening, and Adam to hide himself under a tree, I do not suppose that anyone doubts that these things figuratively indicate certain mysteries, the history having taken place in appearance, and not literally.”
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Re: God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs?
Feb 11, 2023, 9:03 AM
[ in reply to Re: God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs? ] |
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“ If the Bible says that God inspired it, and it does, it’s up to you to prove differently”
This might be the most delusional statement I’ve ever heard.
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Re: God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs?
Feb 12, 2023, 9:13 PM
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It’s called presuppositional.
You presuppose that you have the moral and intellectual ability to recognize God-ness (divinity) when—or if—you ever see it. I don’t.
I presuppose that—
A) God exists
B) That God has the moral authority to judge humanity
C) and the physical capability to do so.
If any of those presuppositions are wrong, neither you or me or Hitler or Genghis Khan have any reason to fear the afterlife.
But if all 3 are correct, it is reasonable to think that such a God would communicate His moral expectations to mankind in such a way as to give us opportunity to hear Him.
Again, if all 3 are correct, My preference to ignore whatever voice He uses (or Word He uses) and do what I want would probably not go over so well.
That’s not delusion.
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Re: God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs?
Feb 13, 2023, 11:46 AM
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No one needs to fear an afterlife anyways, even if Christianity is true. Why? Because a large amount of the most important Church Father’s believed in Universalism.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfundamentalistchristians/2017/04/indeed-many-universalism-early-church/ Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church While the doctrine of universal reconciliation has indeed been a minority position throughout most of Christian history, all one has to do is turn to Augustine, a clear non-Universalist, to see how it was once upon a time a rather popular doctrine.
What you are doing, is taking your evangelical fundamentalists stance, and divorcing it from the history of Christian thought, then declaring your version of Christianity is the correct one, the “conservative one”, which it is not. Please tell me why Origin (the first person to mention the Trinity in Church history), arguably the most important Christian theologian in Church history, did not take the Bible as historically accurate? And why he believed in Universal salivation and reincarnation? I’m taking Origin version of Christianity over yours, since your version is a recent development in America from the 1920s onwards. Evangelical fundamentalism has done more damage to the Church than good. It’s an exclusivist cult who divorces their theology from the history of Christian though (with the exception of Calvin, who was insane anyways).
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Re: God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs?
Feb 10, 2023, 9:34 PM
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Does the Koran (or other religious writing) claim within its pages to be inspired by Allah?
If so, it’s up to you to prove it’s not.
I personally don’t care about external sources that later on claimed that a book was inspired by God. Its truth or lack of it are dependent on its content, which is a characterization of its source and Author, and any nut job can come along later and say “this book was written by god to change your life!”
Any religious book is not dependent on my subjective concepts but on the consistency of its own truths: is it divine revelation, and therefore the primary source of divine truth? Or is it human reflection, and therefore as meaningful—or meaningless—as we choose to make it?
Your answer to this question is where YOU will go for salvation (if any is to be had). The Bible is loaded with God-claims. Yes, the Koran has some, too.
Yet here you are pretending that your claims are just as good as theirs without even knowing what theirs are.
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Re: God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs?
Feb 10, 2023, 10:38 PM
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Your argument for the Bible being inspired is going to be same as the Muslim, the Hindu, etc. You’re going to claim they’re inspired because such and such passages says they’re.
For me, it’s easier just to say they are all inspired. We live in the 21st century. Religious exclusivism is no longer a tenable position to hold.
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Re: God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs?
Feb 11, 2023, 12:14 AM
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What I said was “if it claims to be inspired, it’s up to you to prove it’s not.”
If you’re going to claim they all are, why?
They actually don’t all make that claim. Stop making lazy assumptions.
The principle I gave was that of internal assertion. If a Deity is going to provide us with revelation—either written or oral that later becomes written—He cannot hold us accountable for it unless He asserts within it that the revelation is from Him.
Many sacred writings didn’t start out sacred. They were cultural only and then became elevated by their practitioners.
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Re: God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs?
Feb 11, 2023, 12:43 AM
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Bro, half the letters accredited to Paul are forgeries. People who claimed to be writing for Paul. The Bible isn’t inspired the way you think it is. I think you’re confusing inerrancy and historical accuracy for inspiration. Those are totally separate things. The Bible is not a science book, and it’s not even concerned primarily with history (definitely not the kind of history we think of as history today).
And yes, Muslim’s claim that the Quran is literally God’s word and it’s perfect. That is much stronger claim than inspiration. So I guess they would use your same argument “it’s up to you to prove it’s not”, which by the way isn’t even an argument. The burden is not on anyone but the person making the claim that such and such holy book in inspired.
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Re: God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs?
Feb 12, 2023, 7:29 PM
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Bro, we agree that our usage of terms is not in agreement any more than our thoughts are in agreement.
You seem to have a loose interpretation of the word “forgeries”, and a misunderstanding of the concept of dictation. Look up the term ‘amanuensis’. At times within the text Paul acknowledges the person whose hand actually inscribed the ink onto the papyrus. That doesn’t give the inscriber authorship over the content.
The word “inspired” actually is a misnomer. The Greek word is “theopneustos”, which literally means “God-breathed”. So the term would more appropriately be that the original Scriptures are the expiration or outbreath of God instead of God somehow infusing His thoughts into a human book.
Yeah, I’m aware that inspiration, inerrancy, infallibility and accuracy of content are all separate concepts.
I also agree that the Bible is not concerned primarily with science or history, but when it expresses either, you need to give it credence. Your empty criticism of its historical accuracy sounds like your “literary criticism curriculum “ hasn’t been updated in the last 2 centuries. It’s always funny, but in a sad way, that human scholarship wants to debunk the Bible but fails to recognize that it—the scholarship—is what’s always having to be adapted to deal with countless discoveries that reinforce the historical accuracy of the various accounts.
My challenge to you about being a lazy history student refers to your outrageous endorsement of Origen as a superior and more reliable interpretation of the word and will of God than Paul’s writings. You want to cast doubt on the New Testament, but you somehow believe that Origen’s work is totally authentic. Why? Because no one could simulate the thoughts of a brilliant nutcase?
Whenever you are performing historical research, you need to first understand that there is no such thing as historical unanimity. Historically speaking, the world is not even 100% unanimous on who won last year’s Super Bowl. If you were to look up 1000 articles online, at least a handful will contradict the others (for various reasons—not all of them fraudulent.) So if you’re going to study accurately what Origen said, you not only have to isolate Origen’s works from others, you also have to study the environment in which he lived and studied and wrote. You can’t just ‘mine the data’; you also need to understand its context like you’re mining the dirt in which the ore (data) was found. This is boring work, and as I already said, there is very little certainty in any of it. But it gives you a basis for how reliable your data is.
And we haven’t even addressed the problem of Origen’s changing—“maturing”—views.
And you want to undermine the reliability of the New Testament books that have a huge amount of credibility amongst the early Church? Based on what? Because you can?
No, the Gospels were not written after 100 AD. Matthew was clearly written before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 69-70, and that was probably not the first. Luke’s Gospel actually IS written as a historical document—in the opening lines, he described his process of interviewing eyewitnesses—but you’re right, he doesn’t concern himself with many details that we would care about. But a literal interpretation of the Bible includes believing that when Jesus proclaimed that “the Comforter will cause you to remember all things I taught you” in what we call John 14:26, that’s why we take his words with certainty.
I’m aware of Islam’s claims. They proclaim that the angel Jabril gave the Koran to the Prophet. By my opinion that officially makes it Jabril’s word, not God’s because Allah did not communicate directly with his prophet. Have you ever verified that the text of the Koran is inscribed on the walls of heaven as Jabril “claimed”? It’s not provable, is it?
Too bad the Prophet was illiterate at the time and had to memorize the entire thing. When he later taught it to his followers, it is well-established that at times he would abrogate parts of it. So I guess those parts that were abrogated weren’t inscribed on the walls of heaven?
Nevertheless, my statement “it’s up to you to prove it’s not” is NOT an argument. You’re right. In an ultimate sense, I’m not arguing with you, because I see myself as a third party to your argument with God.
If God is interested in communicating with us, it’s up to us—the lowlier party—to be listening to whatever medium He uses to communicate. We don’t get to criticize His chosen means of communication. When we stand before Him, are we going to tell Him that the reason we ignored Him and therefore didn’t perform as He wanted was because we wanted Him to use a different medium? Good luck with that.
That’s what I meant by “if a book [within its pages] claims to be God’s Word, it’s up to you to prove it’s not.” There’s only a couple books that make that claim. If God gave us a book, He would say so within its content. You wouldn’t have to take my word or anyone else’s word for it.
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Re: God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs?
Feb 13, 2023, 1:40 PM
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I’m not reading all of this. I read thick books on theology, philosophy, New Testament criticism, science, etc. I know my stuff. You calling Oregin a “a nut job” is hilarious. You think he’s a nut job because he doesn’t agree with your cultish fundamentalist theology. Also, Mark was the first Gospel written, probably after 70 AD. The Synoptics clearly borrowed and redacted Mark’s gospel and now there are scholars saying the the Gospel of John knew Mark as well. And John was most certainly written past 90 AD, possibly past 100 AD. Even the most conservative scholars agree in this.
And yes, there are literally forgeries in the NT. This is accepted by even the most conservative NT scholars. Or course they didn’t thing they were forging things by our standards, but they would be considered forgeries now a days.
I totally disagree with you on Biblical criticism. I don’t presuppose that the Bible is “God’s Word” like you do. You’re not even going to find that in the Bible itself. And don’t bring up 2 Timothy, because the author (no, it wasn’t Paul) is clearly referring to the Hebrew Bible, not the New Testament.
Let’s take the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke.
Let’s first start with Mark since the scholarly consensus is that Mark is our first gospel.
Let’s look at Mark 3:21. Here we have a verse that implies Mary, and Jesus’s family thought he was a lunatic that needed to be restrained. Yet we read in the Synoptics that an Angel told Mary she was going to be giving birth to Son of God. Now, why would Mary call Jesus a lunatic if this angel communicated to her she was birthing Son of God? This should at least give you pause for thought for implying the New Testament is a literal record of events that happened in history. If it doesn’t, you’re a poster child for cognitive dissonance who can’t deal with uncertainty. Now I’m sure you can spin an nice ad-hoc explanation as to why Jesus mother thought he was nuts in Mark, but it will be that, and ad-hoc explanation to make the story fit your presuppositions about what the Bible is and your fundamentalist theology.
And I’m not worried about “standing before God” (and I hope to God you don’t mean that as literal statement, clearly “standing before God is a metaphor, God isn’t a super human being that you can stand in front of, God is not a person). I’m a convinced universalist, as a large majority of the Church fathers were in history.
See David Bentley Hart’s recent work on this if you need convincing.
https://youtu.be/D5FUunkB7Fk
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Re: God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs?
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Feb 9, 2023, 8:10 AM
[ in reply to God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs? ] |
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The grounds that I have are:
Scripture, tradition, reason and experience,
What is belief, if it doesn't result in action? Furthermore, by actions I'm not referring to proselytizing or "witnessing", but real action like things geared towards feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and helping the poor - in whatever forms they take (pretty sure that's a scriptural admonition by hayzeuss).
Also, who does Jesus condemn in the gospels? Answer: The "believers" (pharisees) who claimed to be the most religious and holy. The point? Jesus leads followers towards action - love, mercy, justice and grace. After all he was a reformer of Judaism, not trying to form a new religion based on the interpretation of him. Anyhoo, I could drone on and on.....
Selecting random scriptures that say what you want to prove is pointless. People believe in God, and act like Jesus, even if they've never heard the story. People also believe without immersing themselves in the Bible - which is a window into what God wants to tell us, but not the final answer.
The Bible isn't the "word" of God, Jesus is. I refer you to John 1:1.
I won't get into a scripture rattling contest, those are dumb.
bretfsu® love your being on this page. You have more than one of us less hateful of all that is FSU!
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Orange Blooded [2218]
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Re: God is more worried about our actions than our beliefs?
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Feb 9, 2023, 1:16 PM
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Evangelical Fundamentalists Christian’s who make an idol out do the Bible, are doing more harm to Christianity than anyone. They basically make the Bible their God.
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All-TigerNet [12869]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 10, 2023, 8:45 PM
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Sorry, ridiculous statement.
“Without god, without creed”? That’s impossible.
“Without God” IS your creed.
Hot air. Not all hot air is bad, mind you, but it’s certainly a long way from “inspired”.
When I have “inspired” or “hot air” to choose from, life is too short to choose Hot Air.
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 10, 2023, 10:18 PM
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You don’t read the article did you? It be read the book, and the author is a Christian. Christian’s during the enlightenment anthropomorphized God, which ultimately made God irrelevant since God was now just another being among beings. They domesticated God. Do not blame atheist and agnostics for unbelief when Christian’s created the space for atheism and agnosticism. Those terms didn’t even exist until the enlightenment.
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All-In [31303]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
1
Feb 8, 2023, 5:40 PM
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I can see Sanders telling them to pound sand.
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yep, pay the buyout and all is good
Feb 8, 2023, 5:55 PM
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what the what?
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
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Feb 8, 2023, 5:43 PM
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They can cry all they want to but we have freedom of religion, pretty positive if a player didn’t want to pray Deion wouldn’t force him to participate. The entire problem is how quickly people fold to the slightest complaint it gives those people power they shouldn’t have. Funniest part is they don’t realize atheism and most of their political views are basically a religion with the way they celebrate and try to spread their message. They don’t have a problem with religion, they have a problem with Christians.
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
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Feb 8, 2023, 6:01 PM
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I would love to see how receptive you christians would be to a muslim coach promoting his religion.
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Tell 'em coot, no one knows losing better than you
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Feb 8, 2023, 6:36 PM
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
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Feb 8, 2023, 7:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders ] |
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I have no issue with a Muslim coach as long as he isn’t forcing anyone to participate. Nice judge mental response though right on point. Always love how people through the “YOU Christians” out there like everyone is the same.
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I would love to see...
Feb 8, 2023, 7:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders ] |
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... FFRF go after any Muslim group, or Buddhist Group, or Hindu group. Why do they only target Christians?
And, there are Muslim chaplains in the military. Has any Christian group threatened to file law suits over them? Muslims have opened congress in prayer. Christians did no object.
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: I would love to see...
Feb 8, 2023, 9:13 PM
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I don't hear any coaches promoting those religions. Just christianity.
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 9, 2023, 8:58 AM
[ in reply to Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders ] |
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Big Dog,
This country was founded on Judeo-Christian princples! For example this is from the Declaration of Independance:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
And why do I believe? Because of faith.
Hebrews 11:1-3
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible."
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Orange Blooded [2218]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 9, 2023, 1:08 PM
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Wrong. The founding fathers were Deist. Of course they borrowed some ideas from Christianity, but they were rationalist and they were Deist. They didn’t believe in personal God like Christians.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
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Feb 10, 2023, 11:39 AM
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Very few were deists. Washington was supposedly a deist. It is well documented that he prayed "for the Most Provident God to INTERVENE" on behalf of his army. To a deist, God is not provident and he does not intervene.
Franklin, the other great supposed deist, called for a prayer to invoke the guidance of God, when the Constitutional Convention was falling apart. Deist don't believe God guides.
You might want to see how many ordained minister signed Declaration of Independence and z constitution.
The notion of founders being deists is simply untrue. It comes from the liberal camp of repeat a lie long enough and loud enough, and it will become true.
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 10, 2023, 11:55 AM
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They clearly didn't by into the notion that Jesus was the son of god...
So they're all in hell right?
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110%er [6474]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 9, 2023, 10:25 PM
[ in reply to Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders ] |
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It would be even funnier for you libs to try to figure out which side you would take when the Muslim coach offended the LGBTQ crowd that All devout Muslims hate.
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 10, 2023, 12:12 PM
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I don't think you should offend people no matter what religion you subscribe to.
Jesus didn't offend anyone but the religious folks of his day. You sound like one of them.
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110%er [9028]
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As long as Deion is winning, they won't care what he belives
Feb 8, 2023, 6:20 PM
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They just do this for attention any way.
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Mascot [22]
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Well…it is Colorado.
Feb 8, 2023, 7:03 PM
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Beautiful state.
Exceedingly worthless population.
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Hall of Famer [22281]
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But, some scoffed at me a couple of weeks ago...
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Feb 8, 2023, 7:09 PM
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... when I used the word "persecuted" when talking about how Christians are being treated in America.
This certainly doesn't arise to the level of beheading or physical torture.
But, telling someone they cannot live their belief in God is certainly persecution in the eyes of a Christian.
Opening a team meeting in prayer. How dare they! Congress does the same thing every day.
And, Joe Biden, whom they love, ended his SOTU speech with a prayer. "God, bless America." Biden not only called Him by name, he asked Him to bless America."
If they were consistent, they would be demanding he cease immediately and take diversity training.
It's amazing. Freedom From Religion is a group that doesn't believe in God but hates Him anyway. And, they don't want anyone else to believe in Him either. Why are they so afraid of someone they say doesn't exist? It is like demanding all stories about unicorns be removed from libraries and social media, including television.
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All-TigerNet [11067]
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bet if he was Muslim, they wouldn't say $h1T***
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Feb 8, 2023, 7:13 PM
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110%er [8984]
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i think he keeps on praying
Feb 8, 2023, 7:37 PM
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laying up treasure
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CU Medallion [64589]
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LOL...“multiple concerned Colorado residents"
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Feb 9, 2023, 7:20 AM
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More like the three people working for The Freedom From Religion Foundation.
Don't cave to the pressure. Keep praising God and praying.
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Asst Coach [724]
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Re: LOL...“multiple concerned Colorado residents"
Feb 9, 2023, 8:23 AM
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I think it’s hilarious how important it is for atheists to attack believers. I don’t believe in the Easter Bunny but I don’t spend half my life combating his existence
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: LOL...“multiple concerned Colorado residents"
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Feb 9, 2023, 8:44 AM
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Probably cause ya'll try to influence laws and demonize people who don't follow your cult.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: LOL...“multiple concerned Colorado residents"
Feb 9, 2023, 10:29 PM
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Just like y'all try to pass laws and demonize all who don't follow you leftist cult. Y'all are the ones trying to change the laws. The laws on our books have been judeo Christian since ratification of COTUS. You are the ones trying to change them and trying to get activist judges to legislate from the bench.
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: LOL...“multiple concerned Colorado residents"
Feb 10, 2023, 11:54 AM
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LMAO. When did this become political?
I'm not political at all, I just believe in freedom.
People shouldn't have to live a certain way because your ancient book that's riddled with contradictions and inconsistencies says so.
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CU Guru [1328]
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Biggie I thought the same thing…
Feb 9, 2023, 8:58 AM
[ in reply to LOL...“multiple concerned Colorado residents" ] |
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Also, how ridiculous was the last sentence of this article?
“Only time will tell if this ends the issue within the Colorado football program”
What is “the issue”?
This kind of stuff drives me nuts, and you can even remove the religion out of it. How many times does a coach get fired for a certain behavior, whether it’s violations, riding motorcycles with coeds, etc, only to go to another school and repeat that behavior? You knew what you were getting when you hired the guy!!
In this case, Colorado knew they were getting a deeply religious man not afraid to wear his beliefs on his sleeve. And now he’s on “training” for “the issue”. Give me a break.
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CU Medallion [65419]
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He should tell them to "Go Stuff Thyselves."
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Feb 9, 2023, 8:25 AM
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Period.
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Orange Blooded [3615]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 9, 2023, 8:27 AM
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Who cares? He is a good dude and coach.
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110%er [9664]
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How did Dabo handle the situation? Did he actually change
Feb 9, 2023, 8:49 AM
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anything as a result? (Asking because I don't know)
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CU Guru [1589]
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Re: How did Dabo handle the situation? Did he actually change
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Feb 9, 2023, 9:08 AM
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Dabo's response was simple:
"Over the past week or two, there has been a lot of discussion of my faith," Swinney said in the statement. "We have three rules in our program that everybody must follow: (1) players must go to class, (2) they must give a good effort and (3) they must be good citizens. It is as simple as that.
I have recruited and coached players of many different faiths. Players of any faith or no faith at all are welcome in our program. All we require in the recruitment of any player is that he must be a great player at his position, meet the academic requirements, and have good character."
In other words Dabo told them to pound sand!
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110%er [9664]
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Thanks! I'm surprised Deion didn't do the same thing -
Feb 9, 2023, 4:55 PM
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especially given that he's a minister.
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Legend [17774]
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Neat***
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Feb 9, 2023, 9:08 AM
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110%er [9028]
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After reading the article and all of our replies, including
Feb 9, 2023, 9:39 AM
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our religious opinions, something tells me that God didn't read it all and breathe a sigh of relief: "whew, glad Tigernet has my back! I was wondering how I was going to survive this assault!" The angels have probably all gone back to CNN or SECN to find out what sammitch is saying.
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Letterman [288]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 9, 2023, 12:44 PM
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religion is the opium of the masses and should be abolished in our secular society
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Hall of Famer [22281]
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How tolerant of you.****
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Feb 9, 2023, 5:03 PM
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qqqqqqq
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Letterman [288]
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Re: How tolerant of you.****
Feb 10, 2023, 8:28 AM
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tolerant societies should never tolerate the intolerable and religion is the most intolerable system humans have ever created
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Hall of Famer [22281]
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tolerant societies should never tolerate the intolerable
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Feb 12, 2023, 9:29 PM
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Brilliant philosophical statement. Nice self-contradiction. Tolerant societies should be intolerant.
I wrote this in 1980:
The Liberal's Creed:
I am tolerant.
Anyone who disagrees with me is intolerant.
I do not tolerate intolerance.
I am tolerant.
You might be the first person I have ever conversed with who admits he lives by that philosophy.
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Legend [16935]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 9, 2023, 4:34 PM
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There is only one way to expouse about religion publically without blowback from the national media: convert to Islam prior to any professions regarding religion and there will be no negative media backlash.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 9, 2023, 10:31 PM
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Yep. How will the media handle it when the Muslims come after the LGBTQ crowd?
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All-American [557]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 10, 2023, 4:43 AM
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Either blame it on some obscure white supremecist group or they'll give it the "Sharia Law" treatment meaning they'll bury it and pretend it does not exist if confronted. Rarely if ever will you read or see Sharia Law discussed on any platform. Most of the middle east strictly adheres to the doctrine that reduces woman to pets: Sharia law,—
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Orange Blooded [3616]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 10, 2023, 9:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders ] |
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Yep. How will the media handle it when the Muslims come after the LGBTQ crowd?
The media attacks Islam through the medium of Science.
The religion of Islam doesn’t follow adequately defensible apologetics like Christianity does. While Muslims are strong in faith, their faith is not based in logic and linear thinking, so it doesn’t explain well unless you are carrying a scimitar.
So when the left attacks Muslims, they ignore the plight of women, the dissonance between Arab history and actual Islamic history, and the elevation of violence and ignorance in Muslim culture.
The Left pretends that Science refutes Islam, neglecting to realize that Science also refutes LGBTQism far more effectively. But the point is that they do not attempt to use social standards to judge Islam; a faithful Muslim wouldn’t listen to such blather.
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Orange Blooded [2218]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 10, 2023, 10:41 PM
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Jesus Christ. You’re a fundamentalist nut. Thank God your ideas aren’t the majority.
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CU Medallion [65419]
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Head Coach [798]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 10, 2023, 6:26 AM
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Colorado is either a stepping stone or a millstone for Deons College Coaching. If he has enough success he will get a new job, move on and blast Colorado on his way out for this. If he is unsuccessful he will tell Colorado that their policies prevent the ability to establish a winning football culture. He will remind them that the last Ike they were successful at a national level was fourty years ago when they were led by a man of faith who quit because in part because of the administrations policies.
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CU Guru [1215]
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Re: Same group who went after Dabo are after Deion Sanders
Feb 11, 2023, 11:09 AM
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Slime Time not as strong in faith as Dabo. Dabo seemed to not have backed down.
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