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Holding - just so we are all clear ...
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Tiger Boards - Clemson Football
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Holding - just so we are all clear ...

emoji_events [8]
Sep 25, 2022, 10:57 AM

A lot of people (announcers, fans, players, coaches) don't even know what constitutes holding any more. They don't know what it is. As a result, players are coached and taught to hold. They are taught to break the rules as a fundamental technique. Why? Because refs suck massive bawls. Refs have failed - they have consciously chosen to abandon their responsibility to do their job and enforce the rules.

The main point of emphasis here is that the grasping of the defensive player's jersey we routinely see by offensive linemen (and other offensive players attempting to block defensive players) in an attempt to control the defensive player is ILLEGAL. It is a clear violation of the rules. It is so commonly seen that many people (maybe most) just assume it is within the rules, and therefore a legitimate, acceptable blocking technique.

It is not.

Here is the rule (NCAA RULES 2022):

Holding and Use of Hands or Arms: Offense

ARTICLE 3. a. Use of Hands. A teammate of a ball carrier or a passer legally may block with their shoulders, their hands, the outer surface of their arms or any other part of their body under the following provisions.
1. The hand(s) shall be:
(a) In advance of the elbow.
(b) Inside the frame of the opponent’s body (Exception: When the opponent turns their back to the
blocker) (A.R. 9-3-3-VI and VII).
(c) At or below the shoulder(s) of the blocker and the opponent (Exception: When the opponent
squats, ducks or submarines).
(d) Apart and never in a locked position.
2. The hand(s) shall be open with the palm(s) facing the frame of the opponent or closed or cupped
with the palms not facing the opponent
(A.R. 9-3-3-I-IV and VI-VIII).
b. Holding. The hand(s) and arm(s) shall not be used to grasp, pull, hook, clamp or encircle in
any way that illegally impedes or illegally obstructs an opponent.


There it is. When blocking, hands facing an opponent must be open. The hands shall not be used to grasp. It couldn't be more clear or plainly put.

Yet, players are obviously taught to grab the jerseys of D-linemen to help control them when "blocking". You can observe this illegal technique on almost every play. It's obvious, blatant, and "in your face". Here is an instructional article I found in about 5 seconds, teaching coaches and players to grab the jersey:

Grasp the defensive lineman's jersey with your hands so you can steer him to one side or the other when attempting to open a hole. The rules allow the offensive lineman to use his hands during the blocking process as long as he is grasping the front of the opponent's jersey and not the sides or the back. It's much easier to push the defensive lineman in one direction when you grab ahold of him.
https://www.sportsrec.com/486074-how-to-teach-a-young-offensive-lineman-to-stay-with-his-block.html
No, the rules do not allow this. In fairness, this looks like it is directed at rec league coaches, not college; maybe the rules are different, but either way, it's easy to see why holding is so rampant at higher levels.

Being a ref is hard. I have friends who are high school refs, and in talking with them, I understand how difficult the job is, and how they can't possibly catch evey single penalty, as they have to look for so many different things. I used to know a college ref, and he was an arrogant prik who loved to hold court and regale his audience with reffing stories and his interactions with famous players and coaches. Still, I know it's a very difficult job, but I feel their job would be easier if they consistently enforced the rules as written, reflecting not only the letter of the law, so to speak, but the spirit of it as well. For the good of the game, call holding and pass interference every time it occurs. Right now, both of those are wildly out of control, as players are being taught to violate those rules, as it's worth it if you get away with it most of the time. However, I believe that if refs (and the NCAA) made it a point of emphasis, started calling it every time, pretty quickly, we'd see blocking and defending coaching techniques changed to accomodate.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
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seems we are the exception teams hold us and officials

[2]
Sep 25, 2022, 11:04 AM

look the other way.

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Our guys do it also.***

[2]
Sep 25, 2022, 11:34 AM



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Re: Our guys do it also.***


Sep 25, 2022, 11:58 AM

badly

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I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. Have

[3]
Sep 25, 2022, 11:13 AM

said for years that there is so much holding in games that refs will skip most, select a few just as "hopeful" warnings.

Can't recall the game or year, but refs were throwing so many flags that even the announcers were raising a stink about game delays. Apparently, phone calls at halftime resulted in a heck of a lot of fewer flags. "Over-officious" were the words used on TV to describe it.

Today's wide open offenses require more focus all over the field, and I think that's also why you see less attention to certain infractions.

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Right! We have been conditioned to accept the violations

[3]
Sep 25, 2022, 11:22 AM

as okay, as an acceptable part of the game, and that's WRONG. Now, when the rules are actually enforced as they should be, people are outraged. It makes refs' jobs easier, but it has fundamentally changed the game, and not for the better.

Here's what they need to do ... If they want to allow offensive players to grab the jerseys of defenders to control them, then CHANGE THE RULE. If they want to allow WRs and DBs to push, shove, grab, hold, and make early contact, then CHANGE THE RULE. Otherwise, enforce the rules as they are. Don't abandon your responsibility because it's hard, or because it angers fans when you do (due to your own failure to enforce it properly).

GROW A PAIR.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Re: Right! We have been conditioned to accept the violations

[1]
Sep 25, 2022, 12:21 PM

I agree 100%. You should not be able to get a competitive advantage by breaking the rules.

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Re: I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. Have


Sep 25, 2022, 5:37 PM

hartins® said:

said for years that there is so much holding in games that refs will skip most, select a few just as "hopeful" warnings.

Can't recall the game or year, but refs were throwing so many flags that even the announcers were raising a stink about game delays. Apparently, phone calls at halftime resulted in a heck of a lot of fewer flags. "Over-officious" were the words used on TV to describe it.

Today's wide open offenses require more focus all over the field, and I think that's also why you see less attention to certain infractions.




If they are not ging to call it they need to not call it all game long. Seems like they often call holds at the most unfortunate times for an offense.
If it's on every play and then they call it on a "big play" to me the refs are now becoming part of the storyline of the game instead of just being a silent part of the game.

They certainly didn't call some blatant holding pentlties yesterday. To hold the point of attack on some of those plays that long against our DL is dang near impossible if done by the rules. Go back and look at the game and just look at the OL/DL and it's blatant.

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Re: Holding - just so we are all clear ...

[1]
Sep 25, 2022, 11:17 AM

same with traveling in BB, never gets called

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And palming/carrying. They should just do away with that

[1]
Sep 25, 2022, 11:32 AM

rule and come right out and say it:

To keep up with the decades long trend in street ball, as of 2022, the NBA and NCAA rulebooks are being changed so as to allow offensive players to pick up and run with the ball, just like a running back in football. "Dribbling" (LOL!) is an antiquated concept, and has no place in modern basketball. This long overdue change should increase viewership, and make possible even more athletic, acrobatic play, thereby broadening the appeal of the sport.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Re: Holding - just so we are all clear ...


Sep 25, 2022, 11:26 AM

The justification has been for players safety. The blocking has changed to basically standing straight up and finding a dance partner to try and steer one way or another and keep them from reaching out to the ball carrier. It’s absurd what they ask D linemen to do and that’s why O linemen are just larger and less athletic because they really don’t have to move much to grab a jersey.

I also think the skin tight jerseys that are supposed to keep you from being held have the opposite effect. If you had a loose jersey on and could pull away enough so the ref could see the O linemen yanking on and stretching your jersey it would be more obvious.

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Then change the rules, don't pretend and ignore them,


Sep 25, 2022, 11:34 AM

enforcing them randomly.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


You might be on to something


Sep 25, 2022, 4:56 PM

That would be interesting to see. Put baggy jerseys on DL and see what happens. I think uniform and equipment trends sometimes lead to unintended consequences. Here's a couple that I thought about.

Neck rolls would greater use of them increase or decrease the number of concussions? If don't know either way. Would be interesting to see if there would be any impact.

Larger shoulder pads would they encourage better form tackling, with less impact to the shoulders making it more comfortable to use them to make contact. Would it cut down on targeting? This one I have an opinion on. I think that taller ahoulder pads would provide a much bigger surface area with which to make contact with another player. With these tiny little things they wear now, you have nothing to hit with. They are not much higher than bare shoulders so it's hard to make contact with a player with the head being involved. I think they might cut down on concussions.

I also think they should look into capping helmets with a thin (1/4 to 1/3 inch) shock absorbing foam like material that covers the entire helmet, made into the helmet. Not the old Don Beebe cap, if you're old enough to remember him with the Bill, or the cover they use in practice.

Somebody needs to do something about the targeting crap. I'm watching guys get tossed from games for their facamask or the side of their helmet making initial contact. I don't remember what game it was a couple of weeks ago where the defensive player was turning his back and they called it and the announcer was #### bent on that being targeting. Thankfully the refs got it right. Surely there are legit instances called but I've seen a lot that were BS

With the holding thing, if it's a part of the modern game, change with rule. I also wish they would go back to inadvertent face mask 5 yd, egregious 15 y. Yes it's left to the refs discretion but how many great defensive efforts have been thwarted because it was 3rd ond 12, they stop them and because a guys hand brushed a face mask the O gets a 1st down because they are all 15 y.

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Yea, there seems to be an unwritten rule for refs

[1]
Sep 25, 2022, 11:33 AM

not to call it when the holding occurs in the front torso area. They do call it when it occurs outside of the shoulders it seems.

Need to change the rule.

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Re: Yea, there seems to be an unwritten rule for refs


Sep 25, 2022, 11:48 AM

There is holding on every play in every game, if all were called it would destroy the game as we know it,

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You could not be more wrong.


Sep 25, 2022, 11:57 AM

Coaches and players would be forced to adapt and to FOLLOW THE RULES AS THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING ALL ALONG. I agree, it may take a few games for teams to fully adapt, and players and coaches and fans who have gotten used to the cheating wouldn't like having to follow the rules, but they would adapt pretty quickly. They would have to. Otherwise, quit being a puss, and change the rule. The rules should mean something.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


You are spot on. I just want a call every now and


Sep 25, 2022, 12:43 PM

then like the one in the second OT. KJ got held on third down out in space. Yes it was a quick grab but it slowed KJ down. Luckily we had other guys there to make the tackle and made the game ending play on fourth down.

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So you are fine with refs ignoring the rules, and allowing


Sep 25, 2022, 1:14 PM

players to openly break the rules with no penalty? That's a bizarre, effed up take. Why even have rules?

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Re: Holding - just so we are all clear ...


Sep 25, 2022, 12:11 PM

Yawn

Complaining about holding on Sunday morning

Are you letting us know that holding the jersey is holding?

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Re: Holding - just so we are all clear ...

[1]
Sep 25, 2022, 12:31 PM

A passive-aggressive complaint about complaining. Nice.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Think nowadays about the only thing you see called when it comes to holding

[1]
Sep 25, 2022, 1:04 PM

Is an obvious grab outside/around the defender or if the O-lineman essentially tackles the defender.

I played OL back in my schools days. I stuck a good bit to blocking at hips/waist b/c I was an undersized lineman, but my coaches taught me open palm when engaging chest level...using my palms to get under the bottom of the defender's pads & jam his pads up to his neck/head.

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Re: Holding - just so we are all clear ...

[1]
Sep 25, 2022, 1:12 PM

Even the NFL coaches it is okay for OL to grab the jersey inside the numbers, and the NFL calls a LOT more holding than college does.

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Re: Holding - just so we are all clear ...

[1]
Sep 25, 2022, 1:15 PM

That's just an excuse, honestly. It sounds a lot like South Carolina fans.

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It's not so clear. There are unwritten considerations.

[1]
Sep 25, 2022, 1:46 PM

Where does the hold occur?
Does the hold create an advantage?
Is it a "quality" foul?

- If behind the play or on the opposite side of the field, then does likely does not affect the play.
- If the hold is immediately at the LOS and the ball is away quickly, no advantage...you've got nothing, no advantage.
- Even if the defender is being held but he is pushing the blocker backwards or the hold is not impeding the defender, is it really a "quality foul"? Judgement call...probably not though.
- If the hold is at the point of attack, and creates an advantage for the blocker/runner, easy call..should be called all day.

Remember:
1) The D line can hold as well and that's called less often than offensive holding. That rule reads "blocker" it does not differentiate between the offense/receiving-team or the defense/kicking-team.
2) Even with all of the holding, come teams still stuff the run.

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Please point me to the rule that allows holding to be


Sep 25, 2022, 4:22 PM

ignored if:

It occurs on certain parts of the field.

It doesn't create an advantage.

It's not a quality foul.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Re: Holding - just so we are all clear ...


Sep 25, 2022, 2:08 PM

I agree with you 100%, but be careful for what you ask. Remember Ron Cherry?

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Re: Holding - just so we are all clear ...


Sep 25, 2022, 2:24 PM

“Giving him the business” 😂😂

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MEG


Re: Holding - just so we are all clear ...

[1]
Sep 25, 2022, 2:25 PM

TTTTHHHHIIIIISSSSS!!!!!! Man I completely and utterly agree with you. It’s CRIMINAL how bad we get held EVERY game. People can say we do the same thing (and maybe it happens from time to time) but I disagree.

Even if our OLINE isn’t that great on some accounts they do their job correctly. From what I can tell anyways. He!! maybe that’s why they seem to not be so great. I don’t know…

But the holding against our DLINE is criminal 9 out of 10 times and that’s a fact. Kind of funny how Liberty gets 3 sacks and so do we. Unless I missed something.

Unfortunately I don’t think it’ll ever improve as it’s only gotten worse over time but I can always hope.

GO TIGERS!!! 🐅🐅🐅

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Oh, we do it too.***


Sep 25, 2022, 4:23 PM



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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


The modern "protect qb's at all cost" officiating


Sep 25, 2022, 5:30 PM

Has encouraged it too. It's a money thing, especially in the NFL. The owners are on the hook for hundreds millions for their franchise QB. They have to protect the investment. In the age of quarter of a bil, fully guaranteed contacts, it's a huge issue. Any suble adjustments that they make to protect the QB, including no-calls on all but the really obvious.

My change of the rule book, put clubs on all OL except the center. It would actually make the initial punch better.

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Haha ok man.


Sep 25, 2022, 4:51 PM

You can hold on the inside. You can’t get out and hook the shoulders or pull jerseys.

Holding on the inside is allowed. It’s coached in little league you bunch of amateurs.

Our DL has to use their hands better. It will result in penalties. They didn’t have much time to pass rush so they didn’t have a lot of time to work with their hands.

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