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Topic: College football: let's stop the charade.
Replies: 59   Last Post: Jul 30, 2021, 11:34 AM by: Judge Keller®
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[ Tiger Boards - Clemson Football ]
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Replies: 59  

College football: let's stop the charade.

[4]
Jul 27, 2021, 3:44 PM
Reply

We are told that student-athletes are supposed to be going to college for an education. That is becoming less and less accurate.

Now, in college football - at least major college football - going to college is simply a way for the top players to play football, get expert coaching, and prepare for the professional ranks.

These players do not have to come anywhere close to meeting the admission standards non-football players do. They also get a full scholarship and the chance to major in something easy so as to preserve their eligibility with minimal interference when it comes to football.

For fans, we love it because we have ties to the school. We feel a sense of pride seeing our team on the field representing us. But many of us are realizing that it's all sort of ridiculous since it's not really about student-athletes anymore. It's not about pride for the university. It's about football, plain and simple.

My proposal is this:

Let's stop pretending that getting an education is even remotely important to most of the players and coaches. Instead, allow college teams hire the athletes, and those athletes only practice and play and have nothing to do with the educational side of things. They are employees of the university. They pay taxes. They are treated like adults. But they don't go to class, they don't take tests, and they don't get degrees.

I honestly think this is the best solution moving forward. Football players can focus on their craft without the distraction of going to class, coaches can coach without having to worry about eligibility, and fans will still have a team to cheer for.

I'm curious to hear everyone else's thoughts.

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aren't you supposed to hold up fingers...

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Jul 27, 2021, 3:48 PM
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telling me how many words in the answer first?

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I thought your answer was always the correct one.***

[1]
Jul 27, 2021, 4:35 PM
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Re: College football: let's stop the charade.

emoji_events [10]
Jul 27, 2021, 3:57 PM
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I totally disagree. Less than 2 percent of college football players will ever make it to the NFL. Even if you make it to the NFL the average career is only five years and the average professional athlete is bankrupt five years after retiring. Any kid that doesn’t take school seriously and get their diploma and get an education is being shortsighted and stupid. Dabo understands this and it’s why he created the program he created.

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avg career length is less than four years

[1]
Jul 27, 2021, 3:59 PM
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so yes the education/life prep is incredibly important for all the players.

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Yes, it’s very important.


Jul 27, 2021, 9:00 PM
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My point is that this is becoming harder to do as more players are more focused on football and less on academics.

This is in addition to the fact that most students on a football scholarship wouldn’t have gotten into their school if it were dependent upon their academics.

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Then Dabo should only recruit players


Jul 27, 2021, 4:06 PM
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With similar academic credentials to the general student population

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That would be great, but plenty of fans wouldn’t like it.


Jul 27, 2021, 9:01 PM
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Currently, it’s essentially the same thing as affirmative action but for athletes instead of minorities.

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Re: College football: let's stop the charade.


Jul 27, 2021, 4:39 PM
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100%

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Well sure, in an ideal world I would agree with you.

[1]
Jul 27, 2021, 4:42 PM
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But today's college football is different. And today's 18-22 year old is different.

Today's college football is a conglomerate of multi-million dollar "businesses" consisting of universities and media outlets. Top coaches make millions of dollars a year. Players are catered to starting when they are in high school, and are treated like royalty. Now they can capitalize on their name, image, and likeness. Superconferences are being created.

I agree, Clemson's program does things the right way, but you can't tell me that most of the 4- and 5-star players are truly interested in getting an education. They go to class and study and do their best because their coaches, tutors, and family members expect them to, and I would agree that a degree is certainly a great thing to have that will serve them well. But the bigger college football becomes, the harder it will be for the academic side of things to continue to matter the minimal amount it already does at most power 5 schools.

If this is truly about what is best for the student-athlete, then college football lost its way a long time ago.

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Re: Well sure, in an ideal world I would agree with you.


Jul 30, 2021, 7:15 AM
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I would much prefer that the NFL be forced to set up their own minor league. That way high school kids don't have to make the grade there so you don't leave out the kids that can't make the grades to even sniff college. Then much like baseball we can get back to college sports and colleges no longer spend money to "scout" for the NFL

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If kids want to play football for a career then they


Jul 30, 2021, 11:32 AM
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ideally should think about that when they are young so that they can do well enough in school to get into college. You know, like the rest of us who went to college did.

I'm tired of colleges taking on academic charity cases just because they are good at football. It's ridiculous.

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Re: College football: let's stop the charade.


Jul 30, 2021, 7:22 AM
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TU Lowcountry for logic and common sense.

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Re: College football: let's stop the charade.

[2]
Jul 27, 2021, 3:57 PM
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Dabo tells those recruits to find another school. Seeing how only 10% of the 85 roster will even sniff pro football.

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I’m referring to college football as a whole.

[1]
Jul 27, 2021, 8:57 PM
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I agree that Dabo does a wonderful job trying to get the right kind of player, but I believe that will be even harder to do moving forward.

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Re: College football: let's stop the charade.

[3]
Jul 27, 2021, 3:58 PM
Reply

This is honestly the dumbest, thing I have ever heard, I wish I had a more eloquent or professional sounding word that "dumbest" but nothing else even fits. It is just zero awareness of what is being pitched and sold to these kids (you seem to not being giving these kids credit for having smart, self aware, great heads on their shoulders nd great parents--knowing what life will be about and a pro career is not likely for most), over 98% of them will not play pro football, about 1.5% play in the NFL. I am not sure what your disdain for football is always about, and even basketball to an extent, your posts are either gloating about a win or complaining about our lack of resources dedicated to our basketball program--most of life is the in between--you should probably take a break from sports if these things really rile you up in this way and you have to always be so negative.

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I’m not being negative. I’m calling it like it is.

[1]
Jul 27, 2021, 9:12 PM
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College football has become the equivalent of a multinational corporation where the powers that be are getting rich, coaches make insane salaries, players get a free ride with tons of perks just because they are good at a sport, and the top players are only in school for football and not for their education.

Universities benefit from a good football program due to the exposure it brings as well as the way it unites alumni and fans. These are good things. But how much integrity do schools really have by admitting these “student”-athletes, most of whom wouldn’t qualify based on their academic merit and who aren’t interested in class or a degree?

The whole system makes a mockery of the higher education system, while in some ways taking advantage of the student-athlete.

I used to maintain that these players are amateurs who should not get paid, because their payment was free tuition, books, health insurance, training, advising, etc. Make no mistake, these are significant perks. But when I thought about NLI, superconferences, and where college football currently is as well as where it is headed, it hit me that these guys shouldn’t be students. They should be adults who chose to play football as employees.

It’s not a perfect system, but I would argue that it’s less imperfect than what we are seeing now.

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Dumbest fits

[1]
Jul 27, 2021, 9:18 PM
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You’re good

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I assume you feel the same way about basketball?***

[4]
Jul 27, 2021, 3:59 PM
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null


Re: I assume you feel the same way about basketball?***

[3]
Jul 27, 2021, 4:22 PM
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If pigs are so smart, why do 66% of them use weak and inferior materials during construction?


Yes, I do.***


Jul 27, 2021, 9:02 PM
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Re: College football: let's stop the charade.

[3]
Jul 27, 2021, 4:01 PM
Reply

JK,
I think the very reason many recruits choose Clemson is the academic focus and Dabo’s insistence it be given all the support and attention it should. Don’t forget parents are part of the process too and they often do care about their child getting an education.

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I think this is much much less of a problem at Clemson.


Jul 27, 2021, 9:13 PM
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My post is regarding college football as a whole, rather than Clemson specifically.

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Yeah its dumb ... all the borderline “student athletes”

[1]
Jul 27, 2021, 4:04 PM
Reply

Get shoved into a charade of a major

Its a joke

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Re: College football: let's stop the charade.

[1]
Jul 27, 2021, 4:08 PM
Reply

"Charade"(1963);A movie starring Audrey Hepburn, Cary Grant, George Kennedy, Walter Matthau and James Coburn.
Didn't like it.
Don't like this.

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I'd prefer going the opposite way

[3]
Jul 27, 2021, 4:11 PM
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make the athletes be actual students first, and meet the same entrance requirements as all students.

Find some minor league way of letting those that only want to play pro ball get noticed by the nfl.

college baseball is the best model.

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That would absolutely be my preference as well.


Jul 27, 2021, 9:15 PM
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Unfortunately, I think that the system is so broken, and the dollar amounts are too high, for things to improve to that extent.

I wish schools would stand up and say that they are tired of a mockery being made of higher education, but I don’t think they will do it.

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Re: College football: let's stop the charade.

[4]
Jul 27, 2021, 4:12 PM
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You sure don’t think much of football players, do you?

My son has gone to a couple of Dabo’s Football camps. He tells the kids exactly what he tells his players. Get a degree in something. Prepare yourselves for life, learn something other than football, because football will not be there forever. College is mostly about learning and preparing for the real world. For the vast majority of these players, they’re done after college. Your opinion of how college football should be operated, and how to treat these young men, goes against everything Dabo Swinney has built at Clemson.

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Dabo does a great job and I am proud of the way our program is run.


Jul 27, 2021, 9:21 PM
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It’s as good as can be expected within the current system.

But it’s still wrong from the perspective of what college sports were intended to be. Unfortunately, money has ruined college football and college basketball.

As I mentioned in another post, my preference would be for all student-athletes to qualify for admission based on their high school academic performance. In other words, they gain admission because they are competitive with the general student body, and THEN they can be offered an athletic scholarship. I have no delusion that the powers that be will ever do that though.

As a result, since it seems that college programs as a whole will continue to make a mockery of higher education, colleges will continue to allow it, and more and more money will be pumped into college athletics (including directly to athletes themselves), it seems silly to classify them as students.

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Re: College football: let's stop the charade.

[4]
Jul 27, 2021, 4:18 PM
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"We are told that student-athletes are supposed to be going to college for an education. That is becoming less and less accurate."

Judge, good post to get us thinking.
I think that statement is kinda true but maybe less true than in decades before.
Even back when most Clemson players had no chance of going PRO in any sport, most athletes took courses like basket weaving. It is understandable as the major sports require tons of time.

I believe under Coach Dabo, education has taken a more prominent role than in the decades before. He is serious as to that.


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not so fast

[1]
Jul 27, 2021, 4:19 PM
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I understand the outside view of this. But the reality is that less than %2 of all college players go on to the NFL. Having the degree sets them up for careers. So academics in college football is still and always will be a HUGE part of it.

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I agree.


Jul 27, 2021, 9:28 PM
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But if we truly cared about their futures, we would prioritize academics over athletics. We don’t currently do that in college football.

Going to Football Factory U., without having good enough grades to get in if not for sports, majoring in parks and recreation, and skating by isn’t prioritizing academics.

So why bother?

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You're using football as a reason to eradicate


Jul 27, 2021, 4:26 PM
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Collegiate sports.

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I’d much rather keep college sports.


Jul 27, 2021, 9:33 PM
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But sadly, college football and basketball are a far cry from what they were originally intended to be.

I have no hope that these two sports can be salvaged while getting back to the true spirit of higher education. There is too much money involved.

The other sports should be able to continue, as these student-athletes typically qualify for admission based on their academic performance, and realize that college - not their sport - is their ticket for future success in life.

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Re: College football: let's stop the charade.


Jul 27, 2021, 8:34 PM
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Not just no, but hill no!!! That does not remotely resemble a student athlete model. If they are not going to be student athletes, then go pro.

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"If a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filthy animal."


I’d rather they go pro too.


Jul 27, 2021, 9:42 PM
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The argument we always hear against this is that a 17-18 year old football player isn’t physically ready for the NFL, so college football has to exist to help them.

The other argument against it is that if these guys go pro and it doesn’t work out, they won’t have a degree to fall back on.

I still maintain that if they want to go to college to play a sport, then they should be required to have the grades to get into that school as a non-athlete student. But people don’t want that either.

It’s hypocritical to say that we value higher education but seemingly have no problem admitting marginal students and encouraging them to major in useless majors, just so we can watch them play a sport and help our team win.

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Re: College football: let's stop the charade.


Jul 27, 2021, 9:33 PM
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What about basketball I have long thought that describes college BB along with much more corruption and pay offs

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Re: College football: let's stop the charade.


Jul 27, 2021, 9:37 PM
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Check out NC Duke NC State Louisville

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It’s the same way in college basketball.***


Jul 27, 2021, 9:43 PM
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Re: College football: let's stop the charade.

[2]
Jul 27, 2021, 9:36 PM
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I agree this would be a better model than we have now. I have said for years that the NCAA was not concerned about academics except to give it lip service. The NCAA incident proved that beyond reasonable doubt.

My solution is to tie scholarships directly to graduation. A scholarship counts against your limit for five years or until the person graduates from your university.

Another solution would be to make athletics a major. A kid could go to Clemson and major in golf. He would get "academic credit" for practice. Let the coach be his "professor" and his tests could include how he played in the matches, how he practiced, how coachable he was, etc. He could graduate with a BA in athletics with an emphasis on golf. Of course, this would make "academics" a sham, but at least it would be truthful.

Using your model I think they should just be called pros and their contracts could include paying for tuition if the guy wanted it to. Don't make them employees of the school, but of the Booster Club or whatever you want to call the guys who foot the bills.

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Thank you, I always enjoy your thoughts!***

[1]
Jul 27, 2021, 9:44 PM
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Re: Thank you, I always enjoy your thoughts!***

[1]
Jul 27, 2021, 11:11 PM
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Actually it's a good discussion. Kinda like Brets points. But I really think the way it's going now you're probably going to end up with federal gov legislation. That's going to be a nightmare.

You already have camps and models being explored to create semi pro football League. Think you said it above in this thread. The only real solution would be for the NCAA to take the baseball model and apply it to all sports. Minimum 3 years attendance but have full schollys for each sport. I hate to see it come to that but it's headed that way.

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I would be for a 4 year minimum for college football and


Jul 28, 2021, 11:52 AM
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basketball. Most would graduate in that time, but those that don't would at least be close. Those who graduate in 3 years could leave early, but it would need to be strictly enforced that schools can't create joke majors with fewer credit hours needed for graduation. I could see some of our SEC friends doing that.

This doesn't address the academic requirements for admission needing to be changed, but at least it's a start in the right direction.

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A worthy debate Judge


Jul 29, 2021, 2:00 AM
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However, in the case of college sports, we find ourselves at an intersection of capitalism, egalitarianism, and woke pretentiousness. Agree with our posters complimenting Dabo for his balance of academics & degrees with big-time collegiate football business.

As for requiring time limits for athletes, you are conveniently leaving out the "student-athletes" who would purposely flunk out and be punitively and illegally prohibited from optimizing their livelihoods. But thanks for a lively topic.

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Just further evidence you've become unhinged....


Jul 28, 2021, 8:18 AM
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Hubris is really taking you down.

First, calling someone a Coot for asking a basic question. Now this.

So you want to create a different "race" of athlete - the football player. Forgetting and overlooking, well, a number of things. Most football players in all colleges at all levels are still just "average" students, there to work hard, play, get an education. then you throw in all the other athletes, and now you're down to maybe a fraction of percent who are the level of, say, Derrick Henry, Trevor Lawrence.

I could go on, but it's not worth the time.

I really think you should stop trying to expand your territory, just stick with basketball stats, which is your strength. Not that I care that much for all the stats, but you're still very good at that aspect.

Be yourself, everybody else is taken.

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I'm not trying to create a different race of athlete.


Jul 28, 2021, 12:10 PM
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That has essentially already been created in big time college sports. These guys get:

-Reduced admission requirements
-Scheduling preference for classes
-Special considerations given for test make-ups
-Athlete-only tutors
-Athlete-only study halls
-Athlete-only dining halls
-Free tuition

This is not even considering the many perks they get which are related to their sport, such as sport-specific facilities, training programs, meal plans, rehab programs, etc.

The football or men's basketball player today in the power 5 is already quite segregated from the general student population for the aforementioned reasons. Again, I'm not creating a different race of athlete - they've already been created.

Given that, it's become evident to me that the power 5 programs of today are content with this arrangement. As fun as the star athletes, facilities, and athletic competitions are, I have a problem that higher education doesn't even feel important anymore across the landscape of major college sports. Perhaps it hasn't been important for a while. All I know is this era of huge TV contracts, high coaches' salaries, conference expansion, NLI, and the facilities arms race has distracted from colleges prioritizing the student in student-athlete.

I'd prefer for all students at a school, including the great athletes, be admitted as a student first based on their academic body of work while in high school. Those who meet that criteria would qualify for an athletic scholarship. This is how division III does it, and I agree with it 100%. I don't have any delusion that it will ever happen, because the money is too significant within the current system and many fans don't care if Bubba can read or write as long as he makes plays for their favorite team. Universities themselves are happy to continue to make an exception for these athletes because they play a sport that makes money and publicity for their school. It's a broken system. If we can't fix it, then we need to stop pretending that it's something that it's not.

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Re: College football: let's stop the charade.

[1]
Jul 28, 2021, 12:03 PM
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You definitely have solid points (as always) & the suggestion of football being "professional" in every sense at every level is an inescapable reality in many ways at this point.

Maybe this is personal, but I absolutely love the idea of the best football players having to go to school.

The rituals and discipline of classwork at the university level, particularly from highly-accredited schools (& I don't think it's a coincidence those are the schools competing at the highest level in the sport) is so much greater than just understanding algebra and organic chemistry.

The NFL used to be defined by egos, guys who never had discipline at any level beyond their own desires. Today though, the league is starting to be more defined by the quintessential college athlete mindset. Instead of an arrest for doing cocaine off an exotic dancer on an NFL-team yacht, guys like Watson & Renfrow are contributing to society before they even start their league careers.

It goes way beyond just Clemson players, too, and while I know it's not all guys who are "good guys," the league is changing more in that image BECAUSE of college rather than in spite of it. Once you're a millionaire, it's hard to hear someone tell you "no" or "work harder," & college has changed the sport by inherently requiring that level of discipline.

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For the sake of clarity,


Jul 28, 2021, 12:08 PM
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I'm not suggesting it's not likely to happen that way at some point.

But yeah, I definitely don't want to encourage it to happen any faster than it has to. I like how much college affects players' growth & discipline, which the NFL doesn't compare to & never really has, but where college elites have excelled at more than ever in recent years.

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Re: College football: let's stop the charade.


Jul 28, 2021, 12:05 PM
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If you want to ruin collegiate football, then your proposal makes cents. At that point, why even have collegiate football? Just create a professional minor league and be done with it.

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May 6, 2020: "I know I went to Clemson and got a degree, prob more than you ever did. And I bet my IQ is higher than yours too !" sociologycoot843


I prefer not to ruin college football.


Jul 28, 2021, 12:14 PM
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I'd rather save it. I want to stop making a mockery of higher education. But that ship seems to have sailed, hasn't it?

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Screw that! Keep college sports clean as possible,


Jul 29, 2021, 3:18 AM
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Make the NCAA start a semi-pro league. Make a percentage of profits from conferences pay the NCAA for every 1& done, the ones that don't graduate, and similar type penalties.

Colleges are not programs for athletes snd the most commonly state owned. Are you kidding me that you seriously think any state govt can run a business, you must be mad!!

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Yeah great!!! State gov't running semi pro business


Jul 29, 2021, 3:31 AM
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Holy cow, SC just lost $9billion on a nuclear plant that most of SC users already paid for. Yeah my power was gonna be way less after they sold all the parts sitting in the construction field and I got my 18cents check from Dominion.

Are you kidding me? Government cant manage a Utilities, a free rabies clinic, mask or No Mask!! And you want them to run semi pro football vs institution regulated sports? At least there were rules, that were governed by small body, and it was semi managed.

No way do I want our my school to become managers of a pro league. I rather them say screw everyone, have 25 schools say we are an entity and we want scollie+ athletes. But I bet it would be hundreds of schools and not 25.

I am sure this sport is done as we knew it. I applaud your thoughts but they don't work. All these schools need to back up remember their grassroots and screw the SEC if they want to be professional sports leagues.

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Probably Will Happen

[1]
Jul 29, 2021, 3:53 AM
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Judge is probably right and it will happen one day, but I'm for delaying it long as possible.

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Just so I'm clear, I don't want what I proposed.


Jul 29, 2021, 12:32 PM
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I am just so disgusted by the state of college athletics that I don't know what else is realistic.

As I've stated elsewhere, my preference would be for all student-athletes to qualify for admission to their school of choice based on their academic performance, rather than be admitted with subpar credentials just because they are good at a sport. I have no delusion that colleges and universities at the high major level will ever enforce this, because they see too many benefits from having high profile athletics.

I feel that the current system makes a mockery of higher education.

With that said, most universities have minimal expectations for their student-athletes when it comes to academics, other than going to class (often "jock majors" at most schools) and making sure they don't flunk out, all in the name of remaining eligible. As discussed elsewhere, Clemson does a great job when it comes to academics for student-athletes. We do as well as can be expected given the current system.

Now, with NLI, we are promoting athletes to celebrity status even more than we already have over the past several decades. They typically have their own dorms or off-campus apartments where they mostly stay. They aren't typically active in any campus clubs or organizations, and don't really mix with the general student body except for courses. In other words, they don't function like normal students. I think that's a shame.

To continue with the current system is to kid ourselves that the system is truly about education. It is going to have to change, and since I have no confidence that it will get better, I am resigned to the fact that it will have to get worse. And if that's where we are (likely) headed, let's just do it now and get it over with.

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Yeah, no.


Jul 29, 2021, 2:10 PM
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The fact is that if you want a good education you can get it anywhere. It's more about the kid trying to get an education than it is the school.

At Clemson things aren't like they are at some other schools. The kids are required to spend enough time on classwork to learn at least the basic understandings of fundamentals such as language, math and some form of science.

You're wrong about the importance of education to Clemson coaches, players and athletic leaders. No, I strongly disagree with your contention that they don't. There are too many examples of our players becoming professionals at something not related to sports. You're sweeping statement contradicting that is embarrassing to me.

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My post isn't referring to Clemson


Jul 29, 2021, 3:22 PM
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but to college football as a whole.

Clemson does a great job - about as well as can be expected - given the fact that college football is setup to de-emphasize education while overemphasizing the athletics part.

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Re: My post isn't referring to Clemson

[1]
Jul 30, 2021, 4:55 AM
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Judge, one example of the importance of football over the player’s education comes to mind from many years ago. Ohio State running back Robert Smith took his academics seriously and had a special science lab one day that conflicted with that day’s practice. Coach John Cooper told him no way. The principled Smith took a year off from football in response.

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Re: College football: let's stop the charade.

[1]
Jul 30, 2021, 7:04 AM
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Judge I agree we are trying to make something work that doesn’t. However, the fix is at the other extreme. Work with the NFL to change the age limit and force them to pay for their own minor league. The NCAA will lose the top 2-5% of players but fans will continue to show up because they support their university. Educate those who want to learn and allow those who do not to move forward.

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I think that's a great idea.


Jul 30, 2021, 11:34 AM
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That would be my preference much more than what I proposed.

At this point, I'm honestly so doubtful that any solution resulting in a greater focus on academics and/or less money for the powers that be will be considered.

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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Not a new argument. Years ago there was a book called

[1]
Jul 30, 2021, 7:39 AM
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"The Hundred Yard Lie" that essentially acknowledges and proposes the same. And that was BEFORE the amount of money that is in the game now.

But I think it will actually go in a different direction. I think all these move are going to backfire and the fans will vote with their butts (attendance) and eyes (watching on TV). And there are people like me who have no interest in supporting a pro team with his alma mater's name and colors on it.

McGee had a good article comparing what is happening to college football to what NASCAR did. Beware of unintended consequences. Personally, I think college football has ended as we have known it. Not this year, not immediately, but within the next few years it will not be a product many of us will want to support.

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