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Topic: Coaching or talent? What's our problem????............
Replies: 46   Last Post: Sep 28, 2021, 3:04 PM by: hufferbilly
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[ Tiger Boards - Clemson Football ]
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Replies: 46  

Coaching or talent? What's our problem????............


Sep 28, 2021, 11:51 AM
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A lot of people are bashing our coaches now as if they've suddenly gone away from what's been working for us the past few years. Or are our current problems due to bad recruiting that's caught up with us this season? Or both?

What does everybody SERIOUSLY think? We've seen a steady decline in our performance since reaching the top of the mountain in 2018. What's caused it? Is dumping several coaches the answer? Or have our coaches starting with Dabo just gotten complacent?

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There is plenty of blame to go around...

[3]
Sep 28, 2021, 11:53 AM
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It's a combination of coaching, youth, inexperience, play calling, execution, and focus.

If it was any one thing, the fix would be a lot easier.

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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.


Exactly....

[1]
Sep 28, 2021, 12:04 PM
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There is not a single fix for this. Maybe they will figure out how to get everyone on the same page soon.

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One thing is for sure, it isn’t due to lack of talent!***


Sep 28, 2021, 12:39 PM
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Re: One thing is for sure, it isn’t due to lack of talent!***

[1]
Sep 28, 2021, 12:46 PM
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It actually is, IMHO.

Our "star ratings" are very high but we have clear talent problems at QB, the 2-man at WR, the slot receivers, and across the entire OL minus maybe Walker Parks.

We have a pile of really good 9-men future-NFL receivers, some really good future NFL TE's, and a RB stable that IMHO is still really talented but can't get started because of the OL in front of them.

That's a lot of holes...and those are talent holes.

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Re: One thing is for sure, it isn’t due to lack of talent!***

[1]
Sep 28, 2021, 1:08 PM
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I read all these post and actually as AOL used to say, LOL! It would be curious to know how many people posting these stupid opinions have EVER actually played in a football game, above rec league. Coaches, really? These are the same coaches that have lost what 7 games in 5 or 6 years, counting this year. Hve been in 6 consecutive CFP's. To question the coaching takes a special kind of dumb, did you people ride the short bus to school every day and play touch football at recess?
Now are there some problems at this moment, any moron knows the answer is yes. Will Coach Swinney and staff correct these issues, again YES. The only area that is the least bit a major problem is the O-line, but it has been for the past 3 years, once that is fixed, everything else will go back to normal, and it will be fixed. MOst of you people on here "don't know you don't know!"

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Oline has been a problem for 3 years? Why so long?


Sep 28, 2021, 2:43 PM
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Coaches. Either they cannot evaluate talent or develop it if this has been going on for 3 years!

And yes I played football.

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I may be misremembering but...


Sep 28, 2021, 1:23 PM
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from and OL standpoint, I believe this last recruiting class was the highest rated in Clemson history.

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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.


Re: I may be misremembering but...


Sep 28, 2021, 2:06 PM
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I agree and we have one true Frosh starting, but do you have ANY IDEA how hard it is for a Freshman to start at O LINE. Most don't even get drafted until after their Sr-R year, because it's such a hard position to actually learn and block and play. Most of those guys are so much bigger than the kids that play in front of them in high school, they are basically "Blindside" linemen, just get in the way!

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There is no excuse to be this bad at oline for 3 years!


Sep 28, 2021, 2:46 PM
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Except it tells you the coaches didn’t address it 2 years ago. ??

It looks goes back to player personnel evaluation, development and management.

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Lack of talent given recruiting success is a coaching issue***


Sep 28, 2021, 2:41 PM
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Re: Coaching or talent? What's our problem????............


Sep 28, 2021, 11:55 AM
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I believe it's both. I believe you need to scheme to you're talent. There is no reason clemson should be 2-2 .Sounds like talents not there to run what dabo normally runs .Yet he keeps trying what worked 3 years ago talk about a stubborn coach.

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Re: Coaching or talent? What's our problem????............


Sep 28, 2021, 12:03 PM
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talent is there. No NO leadership on the field or off the field. Before we had DW and TL both were good leaders. Not the OC he is not a leader. He said we are out of sinc. One player here or there missing a block. No Tony that not your problem. If one missed a block we would only get 10 yards. Every team in America misses assignments,yet they score a lot of points. If everyone else were perfect the scores would be very high. All teams miss assignments. If not each play would be a touchdown. We have no vision no leadership. no touch passes all bullets. No one who can teach and that is our problem

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DJ is not DW or TL...

[1]
Sep 28, 2021, 12:13 PM
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He is not a dual threat QB. He is a pro style QB and he is not going to have the same level of success running the offense that DW or TL ran. The coaches have to tailor the offense and the play calling to accentuate DJ's strengths.

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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.


DJ is not even Kelly Bryant! ????***


Sep 28, 2021, 2:48 PM
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Inexperience as a team

[2]
Sep 28, 2021, 11:57 AM
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We have a 1st year RB coach
We have a 2nd year OC (having the full responsibilities himself)
I think we have a 2nd year QB coach (may be wrong on that one)
We have a lot of OL guys who are either starting the first time or starting at their position the first time
We have receivers who haven't started before or in a long time
We have offensive backfield who've never played together as a unit
We have a QB who is dealing with youth across the board in the offense, as well as his own
We have a QB who has been dealing with some personal/family issues on the other side of the country
We've had players transfer out
We've been hit with injuries
I haven't heard it said, but I don't know that DJ is the leader just yet that TL and DW were - that doesn't help. I don't know that we have a major leader on offense right now like we have a Skalski on defense.

It's gel. These guys haven't gelled yet as a team, and it's unfortunately taking longer than we'd like for that to happen. From coaching to players, it's an adjustment. Usually we don't see that, but usually we don't lose the vast majority of our offensive starters and come in with brand new or relatively new coaches in their position.

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Re: Inexperience as a team


Sep 28, 2021, 12:24 PM
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Streeter showed up to coach QBs at the end of the 2014 season when Morris left.

His first full season was 2015.

Seems as though the rest of your information is pretty accurate.

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"not gelling" is going from a top 25 offense to 40-50.......


Sep 28, 2021, 1:37 PM
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dropping to 120 +/- in offense is much more than just "not gelling".......over the last decade or even 15 years we've been "inexperienced" and "not gelling"............but the offense has NEVER looked like this.

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Try going from top 20 down to #120 offense!***


Sep 28, 2021, 2:47 PM
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the "we do what we do" mentality.........

[1]
Sep 28, 2021, 12:00 PM
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w/o adapting to the changing landscape of CFB...............so, complacency & stubbornness to change based on their mindset I would say are the main culprits. What worked in 2016 may not work in 2021.

-unwillingness to tinker in the transfer portal
-Offensive scheme....we used to hear that the coaches visited other schools in the off season to talk and get ideas on "new ideas".........haven't heard much of that since we've "reached the top"
-Nepotism? Not saying it's an issue, but it could be. Spiller, Grisham, Stoudt, Boyd, Austin, Elliott, Streeter....all "clemson boys". No "outside" POVs coming in
-Why is our OLine ALWAYS an issue. Yes, they're masked at times w/ superior players elsewhere, but we've NEVER been strong there....Why?


There's no need to have a "FIRE EVERYBODY" solution, however tweaks, adapting, transfer portal utilization, changes to scheme, etc.... must be done to avoid falling behind.

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Re: Coaching or talent? What's our problem????............


Sep 28, 2021, 12:04 PM
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My opinion for what’s it’s worth: it’s the QB. I was there the first game DW4 played. When he took his first snap the difference was immediately obvious. The fans were clamoring for Dabo to start him after that. It wasn’t coaching, the oline, or youth. It was the difference in a playmaker making things happen.

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Re: Coaching or talent? What's our problem????............


Sep 28, 2021, 12:05 PM
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Sounds to me like ungrateful fans are the problem

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Thats really a pretty stupid response.


Sep 28, 2021, 12:16 PM
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Ungrateful for being nearly dead last in all of college football from an offensive production standpoint, despite having some of the highest rated talent and highest paid coaching staff in the country? Yep, count me in!

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Yep… you can’t fix stupid… dissatisfied fans caused the O


Sep 28, 2021, 2:50 PM
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To go from top 20 to 120 out of 130… ????

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Re: Coaching or talent? What's our problem????............


Sep 28, 2021, 12:12 PM
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I rewatched the ND game from last year to see the difference in DJ. He moved well in the pocket, he went through progressions, he still had a hard time putting touch on the ball though. So why does he have lead feet and stare down receivers now?


Makes me think they have opened the playbook up too fast for him. He’s not rehearsed enough in the complexity of the current scheme to act on instinct, instead he’s having to think and that spells disaster. It needs to be so permanently adhered to his psyche that he performs on instinct instead of brain power. At least that’s my two cents.

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Open the playbook up too fast? AAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHHAHAH


Sep 28, 2021, 12:17 PM
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We have one of the most predictable, vanilla "playbooks" in all of sport!

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it is a legit concern.... books are serious


Sep 28, 2021, 12:24 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xB5GBvOqEY

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Only 8 plays in the play pamphleteer! You aren’t serious!***


Sep 28, 2021, 2:53 PM
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null


Message was edited by: hufferbilly®


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Re: Coaching or talent? What's our problem????............

[1]
Sep 28, 2021, 12:25 PM
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I don’t think Dabo or any of the coaches have gotten complacent (could be semantics here, I wonder about too stubborn/overconfident in what’s worked in the past maybe?) but I certainly understand the line of questioning relative how we’re not seeing many material changes/improvements on the field the past 2 games. And updates in the pressers saying, we just need to do what we do better does not help. That sounds like a platitude/BS cover job given “what we do” we’re not even doing well consistently. Reminds me of an unhealthy overweight person rolling up to McDonalds, looking at his belly and the menu and being like, now, I just need to manage my portions.

To me what we’re seeing in our offense is completely a coaching issue. This group of coaches brought in this talent. They didn’t inherit it. To say, we don’t have the talent at OL or slot WR or any position is completely on the coaches. Either they didn’t evaluate/recruit the right players (physical skills, mental strength) or our coaches aren’t able to develop the players they recruited to help them be effective at this level.

I grade the Georgia game differently than the past 2 games. First game of the season is tough, Georgia has arguably equally talented players. Was painful to lose but we were competitive vs a top rated team (more so than vs LSU title game or Ohio St last year) so I wasn’t completely down about that. But I flat out don’t understand how our offense has struggled the way it has the past 2 games. Personally, I think our current scheme is making football offense harder than it needs to be. We were highly fortunate over the past several years to have NFL talent covering up macro issues with our scheme and OL development. Maybe that led to our coaches being overconfident in our system, but that’s on them, not the players, if the offense is underperforming.

I’m legit praying for our coaches. Yes they get paid a lot but at that level, money can’t pay off the frustration of not being able to get your team to perform in a way they believe they can. I hope they can find some plays that work and build confidence in themselves and the team. Fans can’t and the media won’t do that for them (even if they were in the SEC), fixing this is on the coaches. Go Tigers!!

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Can players be overly complacent regardless of coaching?***

[1]
Sep 28, 2021, 12:26 PM
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Re: Can players be overly complacent regardless of coaching?***


Sep 28, 2021, 12:36 PM
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The answer is yes.

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Re: Can players be overly complacent regardless of coaching?***


Sep 28, 2021, 12:52 PM
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Sure, but ultimately it’s the coaches’ job to motivate players and mitigate complacency. If our coaches recruited players who buckle under adversity or throttle back once they get some NIL, that’s on the coaches. That said, I’m sure NIL and transfer portal are legit added challenges a lot of college coaches haven’t had to deal as much with in the past. The game is changing, hopefully we change enough with it.

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If so, it is a coaching fail!***


Sep 28, 2021, 2:55 PM
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Re: Coaching or talent? What's our problem????............

[3]
Sep 28, 2021, 12:39 PM
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My feeling is it's both. I think Elliott, Streeter, and Caldwell all need to move along ASAP. Our OL is really bad, both in terms of recruited talent and development, and Caldwell's gotten his lunch eaten both on the recruiting trail and in terms of picking up low-hanging fruit he could have easily had but didn't even bother. The current QB stable is all Streeter...and it includes what appears to be misses on a 5-star guy in DJU and a high-end 4-star in Phommanchanh...and glaring roster holes where guys who decided to play baseball instead were supposed to be. Why were we recruiting guys who might not even play? When you're failing to develop talent like Streeter has and then compounding that by coming up snake-eyes in recruiting and a team like Clemson somehow doesn't have a viable QB, it's on you. Streeter has done wretchedly, sorry. Time to pull the plug.

Elliott comes across more like Rob Spence every day: arrogant, immovably stubborn, set in his ways, utterly resistant to change or even acknowledging there's a problem. One glaring red flag: his TE's have just 10 catches through 4 games...for all of 61 total yards. And Galloway and Allen are future NFL guys. Not good.

And this is not necessarily on Grisham because he's so new, but where the eff did our 2-man types like Nuk Hopkins, Sammy Watkins, Artavis Scott, and Ray-Ray McCloud go? Where did our super-slot guys like "Mr. Third Down" Curtis Baham, Tyler Grisham himself, Adam Humphries, and Hunter Renfrow all go? The last really good 2-or-5-man we had was Artavis Scott and he's now in the NFL. Clemson's Secret Sauce under Dabo has really always been the slot receiver, we could always, always get 10 yards and a free first down whenever we wanted it, now we can't. We've had the best slot receivers in college football basically forever, that's what Dabo - who was a slot guy himself! - did better than anybody else. Without that we're basically Mickey D's without the Big Mac. No identity.

We have a ton of those king-sized giant 9-man WR's, and a lot of them truly do look awesome, but minus the slots or 2-man types we're missing some serious tools in our box we usually have.

I do think there's some fixes, but Dabo probably does need to encourage Elliott to leave - which I think at this point is the best thing for everybody, stagnation is death - he needs to remove (not promote!) Streeter, who has on the face of it failed pretty much as completely as a position coach can fail, and obviously Caldwell needed to be gone three or even four years ago. We need new blood, new ideas, and we need to get back on the cutting edge because we stopped innovating and it killed us. Football mutates fast and what worked yesterday won't necessarily work tomorrow.

And, obviously, our aversion to the transfer portal has to stop. I understand "team culture" is vitally important, but the emphasis on that over maintaining actual talent has not worked out.

Will Dabo adapt with the realities and the times? That's always the question. Nick Saban recognized his issues and adapted. Hopefully Dabo can as well.

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Re: Coaching or talent? What's our problem????............

[1]
Sep 28, 2021, 12:53 PM
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Considering the credibility that I usually give your Clemson football posts this is an interesting read.

For anyone not familiar with quozzel, he isn't the emotional. stomp his foot kind of TNetter.

These are some really interesting takes.

I don't see a chance in the world that Clemson has a new OC, QB coach, AND OL coach next season.

Caldwell hanging up the whistle seems the most likely, but as you mentioned his replacement has likely already been chosen.

It would seem Elliot's approach to taking a head job would not lend to being hired this offseason because I assume he won't fall back to a lower tier job than what he has turned down/lacked interest in in the past.

My thought is that Streeter is waiting to assume OC duties when Elliot moves on and doesn't seem to be motivated to look around for his options.

In your opinion is there any chance that Streeter has been growing tired of living in Elliot's shadow and is frustrated with not being able to have more influence in Clemson's offense? Could that be effecting his job performance in the last couple of seasons?

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Re: Coaching or talent? What's our problem????............

[1]
Sep 28, 2021, 1:22 PM
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Both of these are very interesting takes. It's what I've been looking on here for. So, thank you both. Hopefully Q responds to your question. Is this why Dabo perhaps promoted Streeter to "passing coordinator" coupled with the increase. Perhaps so.

We obviously were counting on Spector or at least grooming him for that slot but I always saw that as more of a project. Dabo went back to his defensive mode when asked why not move Taylor there now... Which I really want him too in order to get reps for next year.

Dabo tends to get into that defense mode and cite the past seasons yada yada when asked about coaches. Obviously wouldn't expect him to say otherwise but when he gets in the chippy mode, something is up. Thanks again.

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Re: Coaching or talent? What's our problem????............


Sep 28, 2021, 12:54 PM
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Love the Curtis Baham ref.

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Re: Coaching or talent? What's our problem????............


Sep 28, 2021, 1:10 PM
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I agree with most of what you said but there is no way Galloway plays on Sunday. He can't block and he can't catch somewhere he lost those two valuable skills.

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Couldn’t agree more ??***


Sep 28, 2021, 2:57 PM
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Re: Coaching or talent? What's our problem????............


Sep 28, 2021, 12:49 PM
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Are you serious? A steady decline?
They made six CFP in a row and won two national Championships. A decline?
They have the recruits everyone wanted!
I don’t know what the issues are but I do believe in the long run Clemson will be just fine.
However if they lose every game I will still be a Tiger Fan!
They have given more winning that most any team in history! Thank You Dabo !

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Yes, I meant a steady decline in terms of how we've done....


Sep 28, 2021, 1:23 PM
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in the playoffs since 2018:

2018 - blast Alabama for the National Championship
2019 - get beat strongly by LSU in the national championship game
2020 - get beat strongly by Ohio State in the semi-final game
2021 - won't even go the playoffs

That's a clear indication of our performance declining.

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Correct… not saying Dabo has to go (yet) but someone does***


Sep 28, 2021, 3:04 PM
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Re: Coaching or talent? What's our problem????............


Sep 28, 2021, 12:49 PM
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Are you serious? A steady decline?
They made six CFP in a row and won two national Championships. A decline?
They have the recruits everyone wanted!
I don’t know what the issues are but I do believe in the long run Clemson will be just fine.
However if they lose every game I will still be a Tiger Fan!
They have given more winning that most any team in history! Thank You Dabo !

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Re: Coaching or talent? What's our problem????............


Sep 28, 2021, 12:50 PM
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Are you serious? A steady decline?
They made six CFP in a row and won two national Championships. A decline?
They have the recruits everyone wanted!
I don’t know what the issues are but I do believe in the long run Clemson will be just fine.
However if they lose every game I will still be a Tiger Fan!
They have given more winning that most any team in history! Thank You Dabo !

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another thing that is surprising is that Taisun hasn't

[1]
Sep 28, 2021, 12:50 PM
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gotten to the point of being a player that can step in and take over.

Not sure how much of that is the injury, but he seemed to struggle before the injury.

He has 2 more years so maybe he will become good enough to contend for the spot next year.

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Recruiting misses and coaching inexperience.***

[2]
Sep 28, 2021, 1:29 PM
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Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Yep, poor evaluations and even poorer development***


Sep 28, 2021, 2:46 PM
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