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Legend [16900]
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Clemson football recruiting
Aug 8, 2022, 3:59 PM
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Using Rivals, the 5-year recruiting class average for the 2022 team, 7, is the best ranked team in Dabo's tenure. Since 2018 the individual classes have been, in order: 8, 9, 2, 6, and 10. This is not a falloff. We won national championships with teams with five-year average ranks of 10.2 and 10.6. Our four-year average in 2022, 6.75, is second only to the 2021 team with an average rank of 6.25. How could last year have underperformed relative to the preceding seasons? It was the most underclassmen on our roster since 2010.
Here is the five year average rank beginning in 2009: 19.6 20 18.4 18 18.4 13.6 10.6 10.2 11.8 10.6 9.8 9.4 9.4 7
Notice a trend?
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110%er [5007]
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Re: Clemson football recruiting
Aug 8, 2022, 4:04 PM
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Big Data at work - absolute proof of greatness to be continued!
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110%er [8515]
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Re: Clemson football recruiting
Aug 8, 2022, 4:16 PM
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Recruiting is overrated, coaching is not.
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110%er [6857]
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What a ridiculous comment. Typical, but ridiculous all the same.
Aug 8, 2022, 4:29 PM
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Recruiting is the lifeblood of college football.
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MVP [530]
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Conservatively it's 80% of the puzzle...
Aug 8, 2022, 5:28 PM
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80% of what it takes to be a successful program w/ stability; to win a NC , it's closer to 90%-
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CU Guru [1681]
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Re: Clemson football recruiting
Aug 8, 2022, 6:10 PM
[ in reply to Re: Clemson football recruiting ] |
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Recruiting is the single largest predictor of high level success.
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Freshman [-79]
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No, it's not.***
Aug 8, 2022, 6:58 PM
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Orange Blooded [3615]
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Re: No, it's not.***
Sep 16, 2022, 8:49 AM
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Yes it absolutely is. Then to get over the top you need the right culture and coaching. You wont be successful without the recruiting. You will be Nebraska. With the recruiting you will be Georgia. Look at Elliot and UVA. He was a product of Clemson recruiting. He will be out as HC at UVA within 4 years max.
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Orange Blooded [3615]
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Freshman [-79]
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110%er [7134]
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Gene Chizik won a championshp at Auburn. And it was all
Aug 10, 2022, 8:24 AM
[ in reply to Re: Clemson football recruiting ] |
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recruiting. Coach O at LSU it was all recruiting. The ones who sustain success always do both recruit and coach well. But recruiting is where it all starts to win championships..theres absolutely no debate about that.
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Legend [16209]
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Re: Clemson football recruiting
Aug 8, 2022, 4:19 PM
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When your worst class in 5 years is still ranked 10th, AND includes the #1 QB in the nation, AND is rated better on its own than two national championship teams' prior 5-year average, it's really hard to muster up too much concern on that front.
Go Tigers!
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MVP [530]
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The ave rating per player is not higher than Bresee's class****
Aug 8, 2022, 5:32 PM
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Legend [16209]
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Re: The ave rating per player is not higher than Bresee's class****
Aug 8, 2022, 6:03 PM
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Hall of Famer [24632]
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Where did that class go...? I guess I missed it. ###?***
Aug 8, 2022, 6:55 PM
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It’s mostly still here and big part of why we were the youngest since 2010 last season. But some folks stuck to their ###### no matter how facts get in the way.
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CU Guru [1868]
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Stop pushing a false narrative
Aug 8, 2022, 4:22 PM
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and personally attacking people on this anonymous message board! Rabble rabble and i say truth and thumbs down and such and such
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110%er [5452]
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Re: Clemson football recruiting
Aug 8, 2022, 5:00 PM
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You make a great point and one I agree with to a large extent. In fact, our top ranked recruits have been in classes since 2018. However, to me, what set those early and mid teen classes apart were guys who came in as difference makers who were both heralded and unheralded. I am talking about more than star ranking or even pure talent. Look at guys like Christian Wilkins, Trevor Lawrence, Dexter Lawrence, Mike Williams, Etienne, Tee, Ross, Hyatt, McKenzie Alexander, Garrett Williams, Mullen, Isaiah Simmons, Renfrow, etc. These guys were ballers. They had great coaching with Venables, Scott, and crew. I am not down on the Tigers at all. On the contrary, I'm excited about the class we are putting together. But as the previous guys proved, you need war daddies to win, not just star power or as BV used to say "these were guys you could count on when it was nut cuttin time." Let's see if these players and coaches can meet that standard.
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Re: Clemson football recruiting
Aug 8, 2022, 6:26 PM
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Good points, you also have to consider the expectations of an annual CFP birth coupled with the recruiting pace set by Bama, Georgia, & OSU. The rankings at some point become static for them, as each year they pull further away from the rest of the pack, improving their already super stacked rosters.They have steadily increased their blue chip ratio, taking larger & larger portions of the high end blue chips.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Clemson football recruiting
Aug 8, 2022, 6:35 PM
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I’m not going to run the numbers for Alabama but let’s assume their average rank over any period for the last decade is probably 2nd. Maybe higher. We’ve still closed that gap not let them increase their ratio. That would be something like an 8 place differential then two times we beat them for championships. We’re down to 5 places. And we have they most stars of any team in our projected starters for 2022. So your pessimism holds no water.
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MVP [530]
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100% incorrect, smh...
Aug 10, 2022, 3:31 AM
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You need to better familiarize yourself with the basics of CFB recruiting. About a third of the way through your scatterbrained reply of false notions & utter misconceptions it became clear you have very little understanding of anything you've attempted to dispute. No conception what so ever.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: 100% incorrect, smh...
Aug 10, 2022, 8:40 AM
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I notice you don’t actual validate any of your assertions. Weird.
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110%er [7173]
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Re: 100% incorrect, smh...
Aug 10, 2022, 6:48 PM
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I notice you don’t actual validate any of your assertions. Weird.
I noticed that too VirTiz!
I linked everything I commented on. Nothing scatterbrained about that.
I also never said, "recruiting high level players wasn't important"!
People get threatened when they get challenged about what they believe to be "The Gospel"! Look at the linked players I listed and tell me they were not key pieces to those championship teams?
Also, for each one of those lower rated players- you could rattle off higher rated players who never sniffed an NFL field. That's a long list as well!
Again, nobody is suggesting we only recruit 3-star players! I'm only saying, Dabo has a eye like no other for talent. Often, players other programs overlook. Which I backed up by providing links to their Rivals recruiting star-rating.
All the other stuff is just "anxiety" over a challenge that you have to get "every 4 and 5-star player or else" which is completely false as Dabo and Clemson has proven time and time again!
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MVP [530]
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Validate nonsense like...
Aug 11, 2022, 5:51 AM
[ in reply to Re: 100% incorrect, smh... ] |
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your false assertion that winning a NC systematically results in a net loss for Bama's blue-chip ratio, due the automatic net gain we are some how magically awarded... By who the Easter Bunny? More? Ok, your words, "We've closed the gap on Bama" & "We've prevented Bama from increasing their blue-chip ratio". On what planet? Your last couple of sentences, I'm guessing are more figments of an imagination confused with reality; but as they are not in English, I cannot be certain-
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Validate nonsense like...
Aug 11, 2022, 10:03 PM
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I never said half of what you’re saying and we did “close the gap” based on Rivals recruiting rankings. That’s a fact. By differential in average star rating or in 4 and 5 year average total class ranking we have closed the talent gap with Alabama since our second championship. I have no idea why you are so riled up but you are completely wrong.
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110%er [7173]
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Re: Validate nonsense like...
Aug 12, 2022, 12:28 PM
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I never said half of what you’re saying and we did “close the gap” based on Rivals recruiting rankings. That’s a fact. By differential in average star rating or in 4 and 5 year average total class ranking we have closed the talent gap with Alabama since our second championship. I have no idea why you are so riled up but you are completely wrong.
I'm seeing it how you are!
I didn't see where you put it like they are saying it. I certainly didn't.
I think some people want to believe in what they have been "trained aka brainwashed" to believe in terms of how college football works! In a game of so many injuries every year and 5-star bust - you are not going to hit on every player. No matter who you are.
Dabo points it out All The Time: " when they re-rank our class we always are higher after these guys develop"!
Which is the only thing I am saying! Clearly, the eye for talent and the development of under-valued prospects is something Clemson does on a very high level.
Let's see where all these players end up. As you said VizTiz - we did close the recruiting gap! I think some people believe unless every player is the highest rated in their position: "they aren't any good or something" viz. Problem is: "the game is played based off star rating" which is a missing piece in the understanding for those people who give wins/losses "on paper"!
Clemson Football Recruiting is exactly where it should be. Especially when you consider the fact: Clemson does not offer a bunch of players. Some kids Dabo believes wouldn't fit culturally. Some I think he believes are over-valued. We just don't offer - which is something that can be looked up for anyone that disputes it. I think I read where Clemson was 4th from the bottom in FBS in terms of offers(don't quote me on that...but pretty sure it's right).
Because Clemson doesn't carpet bomb it's recruiting; some people may get the impression we are behind or something: IDK! ViZTiz - I get it at least! Can't help everybody!
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Validate nonsense like...
Aug 12, 2022, 12:54 PM
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his post I initially replied to said "each year they pull further away from the rest of the pack, improving their already super stacked rosters. They have steadily increased their blue chip ratio, taking larger & larger portions of the high end blue chips." As though their recruiting advantage can somehow approach the infinite. But the clear fact is that they aren't pulling away - at least as far as Clemson is concerned. As a matter of fact, as measured by any of the recruiting services, the talent we have recruited that is presently on our roster is closer to Alabama's than when we last beat them.
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110%er [7173]
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VizTiz - Good Post
Aug 8, 2022, 7:16 PM
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Be careful - you can't explain it to some people!
The way Clemson has proven time and time again that "developing underrated 3-star and lower players can be done at an extremely high level"! The "high-level recruiting is the life blood of college football crowd will get upset"!
I don't disagree with that crowd; but they don't hear anything other than you must have a team full of 5-stars to compete. If that's so: "why has Georgia only won 1 NC since 1980"? They never have a shortage of 5-star players.
Why isn't Ohio State winning it yearly, for Pete's sake the way they raid the deep South?
It's crucial and very important -
But, it's not what has built Clemson into the POWER PROGRAM it is currently.
See below.
Travis Etienne - 3-star per Rivals(attached).
Isiah Simmons - 3-star per Rivals(attached).
K'von Wallace - 3-star per Rivals(attached).
Jordan McFadden - 3-star per Rivals(attached). All-ACC selection and likely draft pick(guard). One of the best LT's in the country an annonomyous coach said of McFadden. If he was a few inches taller he would be a lock for 1st round.
Hunter Renfrow - 2-star per Rivals.(attached).
Grady Jarrett - 3-star per Rivals.(not attached but easily accessible).
Adam Humphries - 2-star per Rivals.(attached). How long has he been in the NFL now?
There are more examples: these are just a few off the top of my head.
These are the life-blood of the Dabo Swinney error Clemson Tigers. Yes, Sammy Watkins and CJ Spiller are good gets. Deshaun and TL16 good gets. KJ Henry, XT, Myles Murphy and Bresee are all outstanding and you have to have those high ranked players. That's not what I am saying(that that's not needed). I disagree that high-level recruits are what defines the Dabo era!
Skalski is another(not attached) that was a staple for our defense the last few years and look at his production. Nolan Turner! I mean, the list is long!
Dabo says it all the time: "we are a developmental program"!
Ruke and E.T. were both 3-star players who had basically not been playing football their whole lives. They both use to be basketball players or something. Look at them now and how much they contribute!!!
In short, people don't need to read into this too much! It took Alabama an onside kick and a special outing by their TE to beat Clemson in 2015. That year Clemson's composite ranking was outside the top 10.
This staff has shown a real eye for underrated and undervalued 3-star players and the latest few i.m.o have a chance to be better than many of the rest.
We good Clemson fans! We are going to be just fine: don't believe the hype and avoid the paranoia!
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2017/travis-etienne-11589
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2016/isaiah-simmons-3244
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2016/k-von-wallace-646
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2018/jordan-mcfadden-181894
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2014/hunter-renfrow-17064
https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2011/adam-humphries-11425
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110%er [7173]
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110%er [7173]
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All of that to say: "Dabo's Strength is multi-faceted" And,
Aug 8, 2022, 9:59 PM
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One of Dabo's greatest strength's in my opinion is: "talent evaluation"!
If Dabo wants them and everybody else is skipping over them; eventually teams will learn. This man knows talent when he see's it. Some people only look at: "right now/instant gratification"! I think Dabo likes the "fixer upper" as long as the kid is the type that isn't afraid of "Hard Work"!
Talent + Hard Work will be beneficial for the Tigers even if they don't make the league! But, as I have attached and shown, often they "actually do make the league"!
Remember ya'll: a lot of H.S. recruits have been hurt by the super seniors and the transfer portal. Many of these kids who would have been coveted as high 3-star to low 4-star players fell and didn't get looks. Which for someone who can sift through the weeds for the "good parts" like Dabo is enormous. He speaks on this all the time(kids not being recruited like they would have). I think you will see schools like APP or Coastal end up with some very talented guys who were picked over! Transfer portal players and top-tier star players are taking roster spots as well as last seasons super-seniors. This last class that included some 3-star players: "i'm telling you all - mark my words - will be as good a group regardless of star rating as we have had come through here"! Bookmark this!
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110%er [6857]
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Ah, but therein lies the caveat to your entire argument
Aug 9, 2022, 7:03 PM
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Its evaluation. Were those players really 2 and 3 star kids or did our staff see them for what they really are? You can develop guys and coach them up but youre not winning natties with a bunch of scrubs just because you can coach. Sorry. If that were true Wake would have won one by now.
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110%er [7173]
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Re: Ah, but therein lies the caveat to your entire argument
Aug 9, 2022, 8:13 PM
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Its evaluation. Were those players really 2 and 3 star kids or did our staff see them for what they really are? You can develop guys and coach them up but youre not winning natties with a bunch of scrubs just because you can coach. Sorry. If that were true Wake would have won one by now.
"Caveat to my argument"?
I wasn't making an argument! I literally said, "what you said in your 2nd sentence and linked proof to back that up.
And, my point about Dabo's "eye for talent a.k.a "EVALUATION" is exactly why I made those post. His ability to "look past the star-rating" has separated Clemson more than the 5-star players have!
2-star Nolan Turner with the game ending INT in "The NATTY"!
2-star Hunter Renfrow with the game winning catch in "The NATTY"!
I stressed a few times how important having those 4 and 5 star players are; but clearly Clemson has had a very high level of success with under-valued slash looked over players and have built them up and been able to capitalize on their hard work and ability!
That's the point; not argument!
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Orange Blooded [4100]
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Re: A couple More
Aug 10, 2022, 6:59 PM
[ in reply to A couple More ] |
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Excellent points and not lost on many of us. Fact is we had a pretty good overall recruiting class last year, but some folks wouldn't be satisfied if we finished #2 nationally. There were some REALLY good gems that a lot of folks slept on. Case in point I think Miles Oliver will be a stud DB in two years imo, but hey, he wasn't a 5* out of a some private school football factory like IMG or Mater Dei so he must have been a scrub right? Folks, Our coaches have proven they can spot and develop talent, and after two national titles and a whole lot of ACC titles we had not seen since Danny was on the sidelines, I would think the staff should deserve a bit more grace.
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110%er [7173]
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P.I. or MCRD San Diego - JarheadTiger?
Aug 10, 2022, 7:05 PM
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I went to Parris Island(3rd BN).
1992 - 2000
Semper Fi - Leatherneck!
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Orange Blooded [4100]
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Re: P.I. or MCRD San Diego - JarheadTiger?
Aug 10, 2022, 11:29 PM
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3rd herd myself, back in the woods, where no one can here you scream LOL. 1995-2015.
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110%er [7173]
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Re: P.I. or MCRD San Diego - JarheadTiger?
Aug 11, 2022, 12:42 PM
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3rd herd myself, back in the woods, where no one can here you scream LOL. 1995-2015.
That's awesome Bro.!
Thank you for sticking it out for 20. I sometimes wish I had as well; I loved it. It was hard; but fair!
Semper Fi!
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110%er [7173]
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110%er [7173]
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Re: **Link**
Aug 9, 2022, 1:08 PM
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Keep in mind: "the point is we as Clemson fans should feel blessed/lucky/glad that we have a coach that has shown repeatedly the ability to recognize talent other coaches/schools pass over"!
Bill Bellicheck - taking unnameed WR's and making them household names. Same with other positions. The really good coaches know how to get the most out of people as long as those people hare charaecteristics of a "worker/motivated" type! That's all; i'm saying with all this. God Bless Dabo and his evaluation of talent ability!
https://herosports.com/nfl-pro-bowl-players-3-star-college-football-recruits/
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Athletic Dir [865]
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We havn't won a natty in over 40 years except
Aug 10, 2022, 8:17 AM
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when we had the best quarterback in the NCAA.
Maybe we have that in 2022?
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Legend [17506]
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Re: Clemson football recruiting
Aug 10, 2022, 7:08 PM
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DW4, TL16 and Power Rangers. Takes greatness at QB and/or dominance at almost ever position to win a Natty. We are not close at QB right now.
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110%er [6873]
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Plenty teams have won national championships
Aug 11, 2022, 3:45 PM
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without a “great” QB.
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110%er [7173]
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110%er [7173]
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MVP [530]
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Re: To YOur point!
Aug 12, 2022, 10:57 AM
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What level of player were Jones & McElroy surrounded by as teamates?
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50
