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Rock Defender [53]
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Question for religious folks: Friendly debate attempt inside
Jul 28, 2015, 4:22 PM
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Where do dinosaurs fit into the whole creation story? This is a question that bugged even when I was a young believer.
I think they were around millions of years before man ever appeared on earth, as that's what the fossil record shows. Do you think they existed alongside humans or do you think they are actually millions of years old?
If the later, how does that timeline match up with what the bible states?
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Oculus Spirit [78876]
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When it comes to politics and religion, you are a master
Jul 28, 2015, 4:26 PM
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baiter.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: When it comes to politics and religion, you are a master
Jul 28, 2015, 4:29 PM
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I'm also a cunning linguist 
But seriously, is there a problem with my question posted in the "Politics and Religion" forum?
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Hall of Famer [24682]
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Like shooting fish in a barrel... This pond is well stocked.***
Jul 28, 2015, 4:30 PM
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Hall of Famer [21545]
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Re: Like shooting fish in a barrel... This pond is well stocked.***
Jul 28, 2015, 5:07 PM
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More like a whale in a bath tub.
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All-In [38514]
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God
Jul 28, 2015, 4:34 PM
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hth
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: God
Jul 28, 2015, 4:35 PM
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I feel like this is lacking some information...
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All-In [38514]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Information:
Jul 28, 2015, 4:58 PM
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Do you have a more reliable source? I'm just teasing but honestly, I did respond with to him with some facts. How do you reconcile what we see in the fossil record with what you referenced there? They don't match up and the fossil record clearly correct.
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All-In [40872]
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evidently faith trumps everything
Aug 1, 2015, 10:10 AM
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no matter how ridiculous
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All-In [26968]
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Every animal that ever existed
Jul 28, 2015, 4:39 PM
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Was created in the same way all the other animals were, either the day before, or the same day man was created.
Genesis 1:20-31
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Every animal that ever existed
Jul 28, 2015, 4:42 PM
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How do you reconcile this with the fact that different types of animals and plants (they evolved too btw) show up millions and even billions of years apart from each other in the fossil record?
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All-In [26968]
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I don't.
Jul 28, 2015, 4:45 PM
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I don't reconcile the Bible to anything.
I have no explanation for the fossil record. What I do know for absolute fact is the truth of Genesis 1:20-31.
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All-In [38514]
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The only thing to reconcile is the time.
Jul 28, 2015, 4:47 PM
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Otherwise evolution and the Bible pretty much agree.
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Legend [18003]
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pretty large problem to reconcile
Jul 28, 2015, 4:50 PM
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perhaps that was your point...
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: The only thing to reconcile is the time.
Jul 28, 2015, 4:51 PM
[ in reply to The only thing to reconcile is the time. ] |
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How so? The Bible very clearly states that man was created in one day in it's present form. Evolution states that man didn't even show up until billions of years after life formed.
Those two facts alone negate your claim.
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All-TigerNet [10149]
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Re: The only thing to reconcile is the time.
Jul 29, 2015, 12:41 AM
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God has his own time and his time is not based on the way we keep track of time.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I don't.
Jul 28, 2015, 4:54 PM
[ in reply to I don't. ] |
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So you simply dismiss anything contradictory to the Bible? I appreciate your honestly but I just don't understand.
There isn't anything particularly confusing or hard to decipher about the fossil record. It's very simple actually. We see simpler life forms in older layers of the earth and more complex ones in more recent layers. Very straightforward and so far 100% consistent.
I'm not asking you to drop your religion, just curious why that fact is so appalling.
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Hall of Famer [21545]
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Re: I don't.
Jul 28, 2015, 5:10 PM
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If it doesn't agree with their magic book, they don't want to hear it.
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Hall of Famer [21545]
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Re: I don't.
Jul 28, 2015, 5:15 PM
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Nothing will change until Christians realize that the majority of the Bible is one big metaphor.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I don't.
Jul 28, 2015, 5:17 PM
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I do believe some of it is.
I try to stay away from those that take every word, every verse, every chapter as literal.
??
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Hall of Famer [21545]
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Re: I don't.
Jul 28, 2015, 5:21 PM
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Those that do....
1. Haven't really read the whole thing.
2. Haven't been educated on the history of those times in relationship to what was happening in society outside of what the Bible says.
3. Are followers, and accept what others with "authority" tell them with ease.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I don't.
Jul 28, 2015, 5:32 PM
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3. I've met the followers.
I don't believe in a literal hell. Some of those followers have told me "Billy Graham believes in hell, so you should too."
Note that they can't show scripturally why they believe, only that Billy Graham says it's real
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All-In [26968]
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Who said appalling? Who said difficult/hard to decipher?
Jul 28, 2015, 5:37 PM
[ in reply to Re: I don't. ] |
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I didn't say that at all. I understand a lot about fossils...used to be really interested in it.
I simply said I have no explanation for it.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Who said appalling? Who said difficult/hard to decipher?
Jul 28, 2015, 5:45 PM
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> Who said appalling? Who said difficult/hard to decipher? I didn't say that at all. I understand a lot about fossils...used to be really interested in it.
That's true, you did not. But in general creationist seem to.
I guess my confusion is, how can you claim that the fossil record isn't difficult and/or hard to decipher and yet claim to have no explanation for it? Explanation for what? It's just a simple fact, you either accept it or you don't.
If you look at the fossil record it is crystal clear what is happening. Simple life evolves into complex life.
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All-In [26968]
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Is it difficult or hard for you to understand the fact that
Jul 28, 2015, 5:52 PM
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gravity exists? I doubt it. You are drawn, by a force generated by the weight of the Earth, toward the Earth's center. You understand this, I'm sure.
Now, explain why gravity exists.
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All-In [26968]
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Really, here is a better angle for where I am.
Jul 28, 2015, 6:04 PM
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I understand the fossil record, and I understand the scientific explanation for it. It's not difficult for me to decipher.
I just, personally, don't have an explanation for it.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Really, here is a better angle for where I am.
Jul 28, 2015, 7:20 PM
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Understood.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Is it difficult or hard for you to understand the fact that
Jul 28, 2015, 6:08 PM
[ in reply to Is it difficult or hard for you to understand the fact that ] |
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I see what you are trying to do and you are making an apples to oranges comparison of what we were just talking about but ok I'll go along.
> You are drawn, by a force generated by the weight of the Earth, toward the Earth's center. You understand this, I'm sure.
Sure, there is very crystal clear repeatable empirical evidence that gravity exists, so yes I understand that it exists and that's not difficult. I can see and feel it's affects all around me. Furthermore, I can easily demonstrate this affect that I see and feel to other people through experimentation.
> Now, explain why gravity exists.
That's a good question that some of the top minds are working on. I don't claim to know, but what this has to do with our discussion i'm not sure.
What I think you are attempting to do is say that you are drawn to God and feel the force he generates. And that even though you can't explain it, you simply believe it. I get that I really do. I had many spiritual experiences myself, the mind is a very powerful thing.
The difference here is that I am able to demonstrate to you the evidence for the fossil record, you can not do that with your religious beliefs. Btw, i'm not trying to belittle you or claim you are an idiot. I don't think that at all and I enjoy debating with you and picking your brain. Hence the reason for the debate, I really enjoy learning and see how other people view the world.
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All-In [26968]
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It really wasn't an attempt at a grand metaphor.
Jul 28, 2015, 6:12 PM
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It was simply a clumsy attempt to illustrate that, just because you can't explain the origin of something, doesn't mean it's a difficult concept to understand.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: It really wasn't an attempt at a grand metaphor.
Jul 28, 2015, 6:21 PM
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> It was simply a clumsy attempt to illustrate that, just because you can't explain the origin of something, doesn't mean it's a difficult concept to understand.
I understand that but in reference to our conversation, we were talking about something pretty specific (the fossil record). We both agree that it is not a difficult concept. The part I'm not understanding is what requires explaining?
Are you saying that yes, by all accounts, the fossil record appears to show the evolution of life over time and you can't explain that given the Bible says something else. Or are you saying that you don't think that it shows evolution of life over time.
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All-In [26968]
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I do not dispute that the fossil record can be used,
Jul 28, 2015, 6:28 PM
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and used quite well, as evidence for the evolutionary theory.
I know for absolute fact that God created life according to Genesis 1. So given that fact, I do not personally have an explanation for the fossil record. He does, though. One day, I will too, but I doubt I'll care at that point.
There are believers in the Biblical account of creation who have offered explanations for the fossil record. Some of those explanations are intriguing to me, while some certainly are not. I'm OK with not knowing.
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All-In [26968]
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To answer your first question...consider this.
Jul 28, 2015, 5:49 PM
[ in reply to Re: I don't. ] |
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Let's say you were born a paraplegic. One day, a man you don't know visits you and says he can cure your paraplegia and allow you to walk. He asks you if you want him to, and you accept. He touches your legs, and instantly they are strong and normal. You are able to walk, for the rest of your life.
Let's say another person came up to you later and said he didn't believe that the man could do that. Would you consider the evidence, weigh the pros and cons, run experiments to search for the truth, or would you dismiss the claims against the man, based on the absolute fact that you can now walk?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: To answer your first question...consider this.
Jul 28, 2015, 6:18 PM
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In your thought experiment, of course I wouldn't need to consider the evidence as I would already have it, I would now be able to walk whereas I wasn't able to before.
The problem with this scenario is that you are assuming there isn't adequate evidence for the skeptical party to consider. They would simply need to know you before and after your ability to walk.
Also, let's just say for a minute that the skeptical party DID NOT know you before you were given the ability to walk. Would it then be unreasonable for him to be skeptical? What is he supposed to do, simply take you at your word?
If you have personal evidence of your God, that's totally fine. I'm not saying you don't. I'm simply saying that if you can't show me said evidence then I'm certainly not being unreasonable for being skeptical and asking for evidence.
You have to consider the other person's view point. If I tell you something (anything really) then you have every reason to doubt me if I can't substantiate those claims.
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All-In [26968]
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I think it's perfectly reasonable for you to be skeptical.
Jul 28, 2015, 6:23 PM
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I would think it strange if you weren't. Certainly I used to be as well.
You have a habit of putting words in my mouth here. First, I find the fossil record appalling and hard to decipher. Now, I think you are being unreasonable by being a skeptic. Neither could be further from the truth.
The point of the story was not "why won't the man believe why I can walk?" It actually has nothing to do with that man or what he thinks. The point of the story was simply an answer to your question: "So you simply dismiss anything contradictory to the Bible?" It's about why the paraplegic believes in the man who touched him.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I think it's perfectly reasonable for you to be skeptical.
Jul 28, 2015, 7:03 PM
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> You have a habit of putting words in my mouth here. First, I find the fossil record appalling and hard to decipher. Now, I think you are being unreasonable by being a skeptic. Neither could be further from the truth.
Honestly Prod, i think you are taking it a bit too personal. I'm speaking in generalities and i'm not trying to attack you personally. I just want to debate. My apologies if i'm being offensive, I'll try not to do so.
> The point of the story was not "why won't the man believe why I can walk?" It actually has nothing to do with that man or what he thinks. The point of the story was simply an answer to your question: "So you simply dismiss anything contradictory to the Bible?" It's about why the paraplegic believes in the man who touched him.
Gotcha.
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All-In [26968]
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Not personal at all. No offense taken, not even close.
Jul 28, 2015, 8:18 PM
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You have been nothing but cordial. One thing you seem to be tempted to do is take a belief of mine and extrapolate it to a more extreme position, as opposed to taking what I'm typing at face value. That doesn't offend me, though. That's a common debate tactic that we're all tempted to use.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Not personal at all. No offense taken, not even close.
Jul 29, 2015, 11:07 AM
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> One thing you seem to be tempted to do is take a belief of mine and extrapolate it to a more extreme position, as opposed to taking what I'm typing at face value.
True, I don't dispute that. I need to refine the way I approach these examples because the intent is drive my point home as opposed to making your particular argument sound ridiculous. As of now, I can definitely see how they come off that way. I try to remove as much ambiguity as possible and I find taking the argument to it's logical conclusion helps to clarify things (or it does for me anyway).
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Walk-On [109]
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I think this is the only correct answer for real Christians.
Aug 5, 2015, 8:13 AM
[ in reply to I don't. ] |
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Everything that falls under that realm of Christian apologetics, isn't Christianity. Christian Apologists aren't people who should define themselves as Christians. Everyone should absolutely make up their own definition of spirituality, but you can't just make your own thing up and call it Christianity.
The Bible is entirely too clear.
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: billions of years apart?
Jul 29, 2015, 7:08 AM
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The earliest life forms show up billions of years ago in the fossil record. What's your confusion?
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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billions?***
Jul 29, 2015, 10:06 AM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Legend [18310]
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Re: Every animal that ever existed
Jul 29, 2015, 10:00 AM
[ in reply to Re: Every animal that ever existed ] |
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Let it go my friend. These Pat Robertson freaks here have their minds made up. Can't wait to see who they back for CIC in 2016.
Go all Tigers, think independently and with an open mind.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Every animal that ever existed
Jul 29, 2015, 10:42 AM
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I think your right about minds being made up but I don't think calling them "freaks" is going to help anything.
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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his tolerance is showing***
Jul 29, 2015, 11:11 AM
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Walk-On [109]
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His tolerance aside...
Aug 5, 2015, 8:18 AM
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Where were you going with questioning the billions thing? When do you think life showed up?
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Legend [18310]
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Perhaps I was a bit
Jul 30, 2015, 9:55 AM
[ in reply to Re: Every animal that ever existed ] |
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injudicious with my remark. Those literal interpreters of the Bible might better be termed as confused about the acts of Science.
Go all Tigers, be judicious.
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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Interesting that God created animals, but you have said
Jul 29, 2015, 11:26 AM
[ in reply to Every animal that ever existed ] |
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before that they will not be in heaven.
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All-In [26968]
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Have I said that?
Jul 29, 2015, 12:26 PM
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I don't know that.
I do believe that specific animals won't be in heaven. As in, Fluffy your hamster. There isn't Biblical basis for animals having souls, and thus having afterlives.
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All-In [26968]
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In other words, maybe there are/will be animals in heaven
Jul 29, 2015, 12:30 PM
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But it won't be animals that lived on earth, died, and "went to heaven".
What the Bible says about heaven is just the tiniest sliver of what heaven actually is. So I can't come close to telling you, really, what will and won't be in heaven.
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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No, you specifically told me once
Jul 29, 2015, 1:29 PM
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And I believe this was teh logic, that because dogs can't believe in God/Heaven (ie they have no soul), then they won't be there when they die.
That pretty much put the nail in the coffin for that idea for me. If my Golden Retriever doesn't go to heaven, then I have no use in the place.
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All-In [26968]
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Yes, but that is not the same thing as saying
Jul 29, 2015, 1:43 PM
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"There will be no animals in heaven," which was your original statement. There may be all kinds of animals in heaven. Maybe a completely different set of animals that what are on the earth. Things with 45 legs or something. Who knows?
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All-In [26968]
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I'll cede this...I won't say that the belief that animals
Jul 29, 2015, 1:47 PM
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have an afterlife, and could go to heaven, is wrong. I will say that belief is extra-Biblical...outside the scope of what is found in Scriptures.
Anti-Biblical?....ehhhhh. It's at least borderline, to me.
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Hall of Famer [24682]
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...and a lot of them have ten horns....***
Jul 29, 2015, 1:49 PM
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All-In [34099]
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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I think he is saying the Bible doesn't cover the subject.
Jul 29, 2015, 4:41 PM
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I understand the insulting and degrading of Bible believers. Ridicule is popular for points but degrading a discussion to asking about common critters's without interjecting Bible supported beliefs is beyond me.
In my personal opinion when 'God breathed the breath of life into man and man became a living soul,' He was bestowing a soul which could not be destroyed. One who has a soul will live or die in eternity. Death being the absence of God while life being His presence. Animals, not having the 'breath of life,' are not living souls. I hope the children don't find and read this thread.
I know, someone will accuse God of being negligent for not taking time to give animals the breath of life while ignoring the fact that they would be responsible for their behavior and probably do a better job at it than man. 
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I think he is saying the Bible doesn't cover the subject.
Jul 29, 2015, 4:51 PM
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Back to the original topic, how do you reconcile the fact that non-human life existed for literally billions of years before man showed up on the scene? Kinda blows your theory that we are not "animals", we are the human animal and genetically pretty much the same. We just happen to be extremely intelligent (more or less) compared to the rest of the animals.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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There's no way for us to reconcile our beliefs.
Jul 29, 2015, 5:37 PM
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I will declare that I know God personally and you'll declare science contradicts my belief. That's how it begins and how it ends unless you'd wish me to attack your beliefs and have you spend two days explaining something you know I'll ignore as well as you ignored my explanations of God and eternity.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: There's no way for us to reconcile our beliefs.
Jul 29, 2015, 5:55 PM
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For the record, I don't ignore your explanations. I simply don't think they are grounded in reality (no offense, just my opinion).
In my opinion, I have 100% solid evidence (the fossil record) which you and I can look at the evidence for right now. For you to look at the fossil record and just say "nah, doesn't match my beliefs" would be like me showing you a view of earth from space and saying "see? It's actually an oblate spheroid, not a flat surface" and you just saying "nah doesn't match my beliefs". Make no mistake here, that's exactly what's happening here.
Go look at it for yourself, animals appear from simple to the complex in older to more recent layers respectfully. I'm not sure how you can interpret that as anything other than evolution unless you simply don't want to believe it.
I'd love an honest answer to this question, if you don't think that shows evolution, can you explain why?
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Yeah, that's what I said.
Jul 29, 2015, 6:05 PM
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I plea no contest, you win.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Yeah, that's what I said.
Jul 29, 2015, 6:08 PM
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You are unreal.
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All-In [34099]
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Re: I think he is saying the Bible doesn't cover the subject.
Jul 30, 2015, 8:35 AM
[ in reply to I think he is saying the Bible doesn't cover the subject. ] |
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I understand the insulting and degrading of Bible believers.
I'm not sure if you're referring to me or not. I wasn't intending to insult or degrade anyone.
Sometimes, in these kind of discussions, I am led to wonder whether a certain religious belief comes from the Bible or not. So I asked.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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No sir, not directing that at you.
Jul 30, 2015, 8:51 AM
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You didn't degrade this discussion to the point of us wondering if the Bible covers the salvation of animals. You happen to be the only one for which I'd provide a fair and honest answer. I appreciate the question.
The answer exposed a Bible truth that explains how man is different from animals in this world why man is an eternal being. Man is a living soul. I think everyone acknowledges that the difference between man and animals is greater than the differences between even a one celled creature and the highest mammal, excluding man. Man being a living soul is the simplest and most correct answer.
Thanks are certainly in order here, I thank you.
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All-In [34099]
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Thanks!***
Jul 30, 2015, 9:22 AM
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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So sorry that question was beneath you.
Jul 30, 2015, 9:31 AM
[ in reply to I think he is saying the Bible doesn't cover the subject. ] |
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It seems odd to me that animals like dogs that can bring so much joy to our lives are in the end, soulless. But you have already declared what a happy life should be for everyone though, so obviously I'm wrong in that.
As I'm certain you were referring to me as one of the "children", I actually find that statement pretty ironic considering the topic.
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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So what if the all the dogs you ever owned show up in Heaven
Jul 31, 2015, 3:17 PM
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and you're not there to clean up after them?
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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Two days later and that was it?***
Jul 31, 2015, 4:33 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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lol, I'm slow and I have to research to insure I won't...
Jul 31, 2015, 5:43 PM
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be providing inaccurate information to my friends. Now if you were a smartazz I would have just slung a response at you and topped it off with a little ridicule.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: If you won't be there why do you care?
Jul 29, 2015, 4:48 PM
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a.k.a. "You're going to hell"
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Not at all.
Jul 29, 2015, 5:25 PM
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From his perspective, and yours, Christians are delusional. Keeping that in mind it was a joke, thus the pooper scooper comment. I also offered for him to be there minus the obvious invitation of salvation, you've got to know that part was a joke. What's wrong with you? You know I don't wish helll on anyone, you know me better than that.
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Orange Blooded [2894]
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Not positive on this, but I don't think years in the Bible m
Jul 28, 2015, 4:46 PM
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atch up with those of the Gregorian calendar.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Not positive on this, but I don't think years in the Bible m
Jul 28, 2015, 4:54 PM
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So it's off by billions of years?
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Orange Blooded [2894]
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Sure, why not?***
Jul 28, 2015, 6:46 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Sure, why not?***
Jul 28, 2015, 7:04 PM
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No reason it can't be I suppose. I just don't personally think there is any indication that the Bible intends for those to be interpreted as anything other than normal 24 hour days.
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Orange Blooded [2894]
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Interpret as you like.***
Jul 28, 2015, 9:43 PM
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Question for religious folks: Friendly debate attempt inside
Jul 28, 2015, 4:50 PM
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I don't consider myself religious but I do believe.
I don't believe man walked with dinosaurs. I believe we came much later.
I don't believe in the young earth theory(or whatever its called) I don't think Genesis was based on a 24 hour day like we have now. Those young earthers have calculated wrong.(and no where does the Bible claim to be 6000 or 10000 years old. )
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Question for religious folks: Friendly debate attempt inside
Jul 28, 2015, 4:56 PM
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> I don't think Genesis was based on a 24 hour day like we have now. Those young earthers have calculated wrong.(and no where does the Bible claim to be 6000 or 10000 years old. )
Ok, this may or may not be an explanation but it still doesn't match up with evolution. The bible claims that man was formed in his present form so it really doesn't matter what time scale the bible is referring to because it's still in contradiction to evolving over time.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Question for religious folks: Friendly debate attempt inside
Jul 28, 2015, 5:02 PM
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Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit after their kind, with seed in them, on the earth"; and it was so. And the earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:11-12
This is one of the "days" that I believe took many years. Seeds don't bear trees and fruits in a normal 24 hour day.
What verse do you get present form from?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Question for religious folks: Friendly debate attempt inside
Jul 28, 2015, 5:05 PM
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" 26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them."
" Genesis 2:7 ESV / 57 helpful votes
Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature."
I think it's pretty clear that the bible states God formed Man in his present form. There's no mention of a gradual change or anything like that.
I understand your point, i'm just saying it still contradicts the theory of evolution because evolution is gradual change over time, certainly not what the bible is saying.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Question for religious folks: Friendly debate attempt inside
Jul 28, 2015, 5:11 PM
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I think I may be confused.
I believe we can have the same basic characteristics of the image of God yet evolve because of climate, weather, geography or whatever.
Heck, were still changing. Or evolving.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Question for religious folks: Friendly debate attempt inside
Jul 28, 2015, 5:48 PM
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> I think I may be confused.
Ah sorry, well all I was trying to say is that the bible seems pretty clear (to me at least) that God made man in pretty much the same form as he did today. That's not to say we couldn't have evolved afterwards, as you are saying (and we ARE still evolving btw), but it certainly doesn't' seem to be making any sort of claim of evolution. I think that is mostly people trying to fit facts into their beliefs instead of vice-a-versa.
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Legend [17859]
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Notice also that God made man from the dust of the earth
Jul 28, 2015, 9:46 PM
[ in reply to Re: Question for religious folks: Friendly debate attempt inside ] |
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and not water... just a little more controversy for you seeing that science has that one wrong too! BTW, whatever happened to the Brontosaurus?
As I have stated before, the creation is meant to be taken as a literal 24 hour day - "there was evening, and there was moring, the ____th day."
Even when one reads the 10 commandments in Exodus explains in #4 that people should remember the Sabbath to keep it holy - because God worked for six days and rested on the seventh.
And no where does the Bible say how long Adam and Eve resided in the Garden of Eden. In fact, if Adam named every creature I imagine he was there for a very long time.
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All-In [29036]
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My take
Jul 28, 2015, 4:59 PM
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I simply don't "know".
I love science, and appreciate the ordered look at out universe it provides. I love the search and quest for knowledge and the logical pursuit of understanding.
I also am a man of Faith who holds tight to the very real (in my estimation and experience) spiritual wisdom which resonates with my soul. I believe in my God the creator and sustainer of all things.
I simply feel no necessary conflict between them. Are some of the stories in scripture allegorical? maybe, or probably, or perhaps. Are some of the truths we think we know from our scientific pursuits wrong? Maybe, or probably, or perhaps.
In the end I see no reason to argue one must trump the other as we stumble around this earth trying to figure it all out.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: My take
Jul 28, 2015, 5:03 PM
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Agreed. There will always be things that we can't give a answer to with 100% certainty.
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All-In [29036]
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I am entirely comfortable with that being the case
Jul 28, 2015, 5:05 PM
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I spent too much of my life thinking I had to be able to answer every question from either side of the issue.
In the end, there is simply uncertainty I can accept and actually acknowledge and value for what it is.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: My take
Jul 28, 2015, 5:07 PM
[ in reply to Re: My take ] |
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> Agreed. There will always be things that we can't give a answer to with 100% certainty.
I agree with this statement in general as we can never absolutely 100% "prove" anything to be true, but that doesn't mean we don't know with absolute certainty what the fossil record shows or that evolution is a fact.
There's an unfathomable amount of knowledge out there that we don't know about but explanations for the diversity of life is no longer one of them.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: My take
Jul 28, 2015, 5:12 PM
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Same here. I'm talking in general terms.
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All-In [28802]
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Scientific certainty is even inappropriate for some things
Jul 28, 2015, 5:27 PM
[ in reply to Re: My take ] |
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Unfortunately, the scientistic mindset either dismisses the kind of language that doesn't aim at certainty, or it reduces things in order to make them submit to its way of description.
Ironically, fundamentalists adopt this same mindset: they want scripture to read as if it were a science textbook. In doing so, fundamentalists accept the reductionist claims of the scientistic, and dismiss other ways of describing the truth as if they were less true.
Both throw away every tool except their hammer, so everything begins to look like a nail.
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Legend [18310]
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Re: Scientific certainty is even inappropriate for some things
Jul 29, 2015, 10:22 AM
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I know from years of experience that the scientist carefully examines the data available to him and makes conclusions based on these data. Good scientists are governed by a strict code of ethics that cannot be compromised. The output of good science is the best information available. I do not try to compare it to religion, that is an impossible comparison. Nothing is reduced when it comes to science, every available datum is carefully considered. Anything else is pseudo-science.
Go all Tigers, try to be good at what you do.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Hypothetical here... maybe the actual God gave you logic to
Jul 29, 2015, 1:16 AM
[ in reply to My take ] |
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sort out bullsh*t. And maybe not using that logic is wasting a real gift in favor of sticking to something you were raised to believe which is only partially true.
It's just a hypothetical.
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Oculus Spirit [82981]
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Ask clemson93***
Jul 28, 2015, 5:35 PM
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Oculus Spirit [82981]
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The Bible is a history book written by men. That
Jul 28, 2015, 5:38 PM
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should tell you something.
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All-TigerNet [12016]
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OMG!***
Jul 28, 2015, 5:55 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: OMG!***
Jul 28, 2015, 6:01 PM
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I mean... maybe... that's why we are debating
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Hall of Famer [24682]
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And then the spaceship lands with a fresh batch of DNA...***
Jul 28, 2015, 6:39 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Oculus Spirit [97657]
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I have no problem believing in the message of the Bible
Jul 28, 2015, 6:59 PM
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without taking it as literal. I know, the Baptists around here will pounce. But to me the Bible is a guide, written by men, trying their best to record God's word for the ages. You don't thrown the baby out with the bath water, as far too many people do. The ideas, the thoughts, the lifestyle, those things in the Bible are timeless and as important today as yesterday, as tomorrow. I see the Bible as a guide of how to live a holy and good life. It is God's word, written by men. Perhaps the world around us, and the word of the Bible, is a test by God to see if people can keep believing despite evidence to the contrary.
You can discount the entire thing or believe every literal word and nothing else to your peril. God knows what is important in the Bible and I think the test is to see if you can keep the faith, lead the life, and help others as the Bible says, without losing faith.
You can not toss out the benefit of the Ten Commandments when someone argues about where Cain's wife came from. Where Cain's wife came from means absolutely nothing to me and provides no guidance for my life. Ignore the "facts" and embrace the message. I have no problem doing that. Many do.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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You're as passionate about this topic as geechie is Hillary.
Jul 28, 2015, 8:39 PM
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I'm sticking with trying to get geechie to vote republican.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: You're as passionate about this topic as geechie is Hillary.
Jul 29, 2015, 9:39 AM
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Well I mean, it's a pretty interesting topic. I also might add that this is the politics and religion form. This is the appropriate place to debate such topics.
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Legend [18310]
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My relationship to Sec. Clinton (Slick Willy's spouse)
Jul 29, 2015, 11:07 AM
[ in reply to You're as passionate about this topic as geechie is Hillary. ] |
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is platonic, I think that she is a competent person capable of leading our country. The chance of me voting Republican is presently zero unless y'all somehow come up with an acceptable candidate. Can you not post anything about me that is remotely correct? My regards to you, you might just have some potential. I've wasted too much time here today, I'll be back sometime when I want to be amused.
Go all Tigers, do not waste to much time.
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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Legend [18310]
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Well...hello.
Jul 30, 2015, 9:42 AM
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Here I am again to express my disappointment at your unique and clever(lol) post was ignored yet again. Maybe there is an ineligible "Crash" flow from here all the way t the junk yard, or something like that.
Go all Tigers, be unique and clever.
-ASH" FLOW STRETCHING FROM HERE ALL THE WAY TO THE UNKPILE.
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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Sure. Yeah. Okay.***
Jul 30, 2015, 10:01 AM
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Hall of Famer [24682]
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Legend [17859]
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Hey, Job....remember these words...
Jul 28, 2015, 9:30 PM
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Take them as you wish...
Job 40:6-19; 41:1-11
God’s Challenge to Job
Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
“Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me:
“Would you indeed annul My judgment?
Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?
Have you an arm like God?
Or can you thunder with a voice like His?
Then adorn yourself with majesty and splendor,
And array yourself with glory and beauty.
Disperse the rage of your wrath;
Look on everyone who is proud, and humble him.
Look on everyone who is proud, and bring him low;
Tread down the wicked in their place.
Hide them in the dust together,
Bind their faces in hidden darkness.
Then I will also confess to you
That your own right hand can save you.
“Look now at the behemoth, which I made along with you;
He eats grass like an ox.
See now, his strength is in his hips,
And his power is in his stomach muscles.
He moves his tail like a cedar;
The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit.
His bones are like beams of bronze,
His ribs like bars of iron.
He is the first of the ways of God;
Only He who made him can bring near His sword....
JOB 41:1-11
“Can you draw out Leviathan with a hook,
Or snare his tongue with a line which you lower?
Can you put a reed through his nose,
Or pierce his jaw with a hook?
Will he make many supplications to you?
Will he speak softly to you?
Will he make a covenant with you?
Will you take him as a servant forever?
Will you play with him as with a bird,
Or will you leash him for your maidens?
Will your companions make a banquet of him?
Will they apportion him among the merchants?
Can you fill his skin with harpoons,
Or his head with fishing spears?
Lay your hand on him;
Remember the battle—
Never do it again!
Indeed, any hope of overcoming him is false;
Shall one not be overwhelmed at the sight of him?
No one is so fierce that he would dare stir him up.
Who then is able to stand against Me?
Who has preceded Me, that I should pay him?
Everything under heaven is Mine.
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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For being omnipotent, God sure is needy***
Jul 28, 2015, 10:40 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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I'll tell you one thing about him.
Jul 29, 2015, 6:02 AM
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He spoke to Job that way to establish the difference between them. He didn't do that out of pride or need for worship. He did that because of the joy He can give man when the proper relationship is developed.
True joy comes from God. True joy is loving a woman and putting her first in everything. True joy is not giving her everything she thinks she wants but that which she truly wants, a husband that loves her more than he loves himself. True joy is having a woman and making her a good and faithful wife who is willingly submissive to her you because of his love for her. True joy is a houseful of children who view their faithful father as a true hero, one who has all the answers to life and holds the secret of their safety and welfare.
The aforementioned is true joy and it is the gift of God. If you're finding that in science that must have been covered one of the many days I was out fishing with my father.
True joy is having the friendship of the Creator of the universe and knowing you've become and eternal being and you are established as a eternal member of His immediate family.
You guys turn a laughing voice toward those of us who know these truths, in your blindness you find bliss while in my faith God has given me comfort and joy.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I'll tell you one thing about him.
Jul 29, 2015, 9:43 AM
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> You guys turn a laughing voice toward those of us who know these truths, in your blindness you find bliss while in my faith God has given me comfort and joy.
Nobody is laughing at you in the forum. I asked a pretty specific question so it would be nice if you would stay on topic or create your own.
How do you reconcile the facts we know about dinosaurs and the fossil records with what the Bible claims? The fossil record couldn't be more clear and it is in direct contradiction to what the book of Genesis claims so.....
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Hall of Famer [21545]
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Re: I'll tell you one thing about him.
Jul 29, 2015, 9:55 AM
[ in reply to I'll tell you one thing about him. ] |
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You believe it to be true...you do not know.
Further, I have plenty of comfort and joy. And I don't need to get mine from listening to people preach out of a magic book.
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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This is telling, and interesting.
Jul 29, 2015, 10:00 AM
[ in reply to I'll tell you one thing about him. ] |
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Please, explain.
"True joy is not giving her everything she thinks she wants but that which she truly wants, a husband that loves her more than he loves himself.
"True joy is having a woman and making her a good and faithful wife who is willingly submissive to her you because of his love for her."
How do you go about "making" someone faithful? And just so I'm clear, you want you wife to be "willingly submissive" to you? Are you some kind of control freak?
"True joy is a houseful of children who view their faithful father as a true hero, one who has all the answers to life and holds the secret of their safety and welfare."
You have some real power issues in your life. You need someone to see you as a true hero, so you had kids to fulfill that need? Wow...thats kinda messed up, don't you think? You've stated you want a submissive wife and kids who worship you.
And you don't see anything wrong with that??
And which is better? bliss, or comfort and joy?
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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And one more thing...
Jul 29, 2015, 10:04 AM
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Who are you to define what "true joy" is to everyone? Maybe you want all that slavery stuff in your house, but maybe not everyone does?
I don't even like kids.
How does one get the attitude that they know what is best for everyone, because it seems good for them?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: This is telling, and interesting.
Jul 29, 2015, 10:50 AM
[ in reply to This is telling, and interesting. ] |
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Studies have shown that, in general, conservatives place a high value on loyalty/respect for authority.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Re: This is telling, and interesting.
Jul 29, 2015, 12:17 PM
[ in reply to This is telling, and interesting. ] |
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The first sentence is just what it says. A woman's greatest joy is being loved by someone who puts her first in his life. What woman wants a man who puts himself before her?
The second sentence in your list is a typo, my bad. Here's a revision, 'True joy for a man is loving a woman and preferring her before himself. That is our obligation to God for which He rewards us by making our woman submissive. She doesn't bow down to her man but she knows when he wants something it's for her benefit, not his.
This kind of love is rare and a woman knows that such dedication comes along seldom. The risk of losing that love of requiting it is too great.
Not sure how loving children and putting them and their best interest first makes me a power monger. Seems like a power monger would put himself before all his subjects. I'll take the comfort and joy.
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Legend [17859]
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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An omnipotent being creates a species that he demands
Jul 29, 2015, 9:54 AM
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worship him at all times, all for his glory. Not only needy, but pretty arrogant, too.
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Hall of Famer [24682]
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But after all, HE did donate the DNA... ;~)***
Jul 29, 2015, 9:57 AM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Face palm....
Jul 29, 2015, 9:56 AM
[ in reply to Face palm.... ] |
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I'm not trying to be snarky but where is he? It's hard to challenge someone you don't even know exists. To my knowledge I've never interacted with him and I suspect you haven't either. I also suspect that you will now make unprovable claims as to your relationship with him. I used to do the same thing.
This will probably #### you off but it really shouldn't, I'm not trying to challenge your intellect or worth as a person, just your idea that you are claiming. I'm sure you are a great person, you are after all a tiger fan, so by that measure alone you are pretty dang intelligent
Is it really so unreasonable to be skeptical about what you are claiming? You are claiming an omnipresent being is in control of the universe. That may be true, I don't know. What I do know though is that there is not a single shred of evidence anyone has ever shown me. Everyone just points to the Bible or claims some personal experience which they can conveniently never offer proof for. I've had my own personal experiences with religion btw, so I know exactly how powerful they can be.
Two questions:
1. Why should I believe what you are claiming (The Bible is the inerrant word of God)
2. How do you reconcile the facts we see in the fossil record with what the Bible claims? They are in direct contradiction and the fossil record is pretty clear.
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110%er [7013]
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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If Adam and Eve were the first humans, are we all
Jul 28, 2015, 10:36 PM
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products of incest?
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Hall of Famer [24682]
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That 14th rib would make us asexual in origin...***
Jul 29, 2015, 12:06 AM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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The Bible leaves out most of reality. Doesn't explain a lot.
Jul 29, 2015, 1:13 AM
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That's why there are hundreds of different versions of Christianity because people like to fill the gaps with loose interpretation.
But... I mean... if you believe God actually has a favorite group of people and completely ignored the vast majority of people on Earth and picked one specific time in Human history to talk to certain prophets... and that most people are designed to be tortured for eternity... then you will believe anything that you are raised to believe.
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Hall of Famer [24682]
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Well, it's definitely convenient.....there's only 144,000
Jul 30, 2015, 9:51 AM
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tickets for the show.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Re: Well, it's definitely convenient.....there's only 144,000
Jul 31, 2015, 3:20 PM
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That number counts only the Jews who turn to the messiah during tribulations. Those before the great tribulations are considered a great cloud of witnesses. I haven't assumed a number to describe them.
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Hall of Famer [24682]
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Yea, the 12 tribes... They must be special....***
Jul 31, 2015, 6:16 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Why you treating me like that.
Aug 1, 2015, 9:25 AM
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The way you guys ridicule me in here folks would think I'm a diehard Coot. I don't understand, nothing supercedes your disgust for believers.
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Hall of Famer [24682]
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'88...I like you and almost all your posts. My problem isn't
Aug 1, 2015, 10:39 AM
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with someone's belief in their Supreme Being. I don't care for the Bible 'thumpers' that take every word literally. There are too many good things concerning morals, ethics, The Ten Commandments, etc. to appreciate rather than debating the exactitudes of translations of 'chosen' books within the Bible. There are numerous things to be learned and lived by but for my beliefs, it's not an all or nothing concept.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Strangely enough.
Aug 1, 2015, 12:02 PM
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Your post seems to have changed. I don't know why I came at you with the accusation of ridicule for no reason. WOW, somebody must have drugged my coffee filter or something.
BTW, I actually attempt to reconcile science and the Bible on occasions here. I appreciate and honest question and if the poster seems like he's not trolling me for point bait or having a good time by making me waste effort I'm glad to explain anything and everything I understand.
I'm different that most people and contrary to what I seem I don't believe or think I know everything.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Hall of Famer [24682]
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+1...***
Aug 1, 2015, 2:39 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Re: +1...***+1
Aug 1, 2015, 4:21 PM
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How bad did that hurt?
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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Unless you are telling us what "true joy" is, amiright?
Aug 1, 2015, 11:31 PM
[ in reply to Strangely enough. ] |
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Even for you, that was pretty condescending.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Re: Unless you are telling us what "true joy" is, amiright?
Aug 2, 2015, 8:24 AM
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That was condescending and that's why I apologized instead of editing the post and trying to pretend I didn't make the statements. I know it was offensive and in case you don't know, I understand I am more than averagely flawed. Actually, I'm corrupted beyond imagination.
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110%er [7231]
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Re: Question for religious folks: Friendly debate attempt inside
Aug 3, 2015, 3:35 AM
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> Where do dinosaurs fit into the whole creation story?
> This is a question that bugged even when I was a
> young believer.
>
> I think they were around millions of years before man
> ever appeared on earth, as that's what the fossil
> record shows. Do you think they existed alongside
> humans or do you think they are actually millions of
> years old?
>
> If the later, how does that timeline match up with
> what the bible states?
Darealmvp,
Please read the following description of this animal that God is referring to Job. Then proceed to the notes below. It may or may not help you with your genuine question. (Not being a jacka$$ this time as I usually am.)
Job 40:1 The Lord said to Job:
2
“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
3 Then Job answered the Lord:
4
“I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5
I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”
6 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:
7
“Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8
“Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9
Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10
Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11
Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at all who are proud and bring them low,
12
look at all who are proud and humble them,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13
Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14
Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
15
“Look at Behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16
What strength it has in its loins,
what power in the muscles of its belly!
17
Its tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
18
Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like rods of iron.
19
It ranks first among the works of God,
yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.
20
The hills bring it their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.
21
Under the lotus plants it lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22
The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround it.
23
A raging river does not alarm it;
it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
24
Can anyone capture it by the eyes,
or trap it and pierce its nose?
Notes:
#1. Over 90% of all species that have ever existed on Earth are now extinct. This has been claimed by scientist for many years.
#2. The Book of Job is believed to be the oldest book of the Bible. After all someone had to be around to tell the story of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, etc...
#3. They have found footprints that were preserved in a dried up river bed belonging to both human being and prehistoric creatures. Both sets of prints were in the same layer of soil as each other. So that would be some slight evidence of man and dinosaur co-existing at one point.
#4. The age of Earth is not 26,000 years old as Bill Nye and other atheist accuse the Bible of claiming. In fact, the Bible never makes any claim as to how old the Earth is. In fact, the Bible mentions that God's measurement of time is vastly different from ours. This takes extensive studying to interpret prophecy, historical events, and timelines in the Bible. When the Bible claims a 6 day of creation, it isn't necessarily a time frame of 6 Earth days. It could literally have been billions of years though some folks in the Church argue that fact on many levels.
#5. The word, "dinosaur" didn't become part of the vocabulary until the 18th or 19th century. Therefore, the animal referred to as Behemoth could very well be a Brontosaurus. The remains of that Dinosaur have been found all over the Middle-East and Africa primarily near dried up fresh water river beds.
#6 In matters of carbon dating, the method does not go back any further than 8,000 years on the best proven methods of any equation. So, how can a scientist hold up a dinosaur bone and make a claim of millions of years. Granted, NASA has made the claim that the time space continuum at the threshold vacuum of a black hole is much different than the measurement of time on Earth. For example, NASA claims that 1 minute at that black hole would equal almost 1,000 years on Earth.
#7 Another important fact to note is that Job obviously acknowledged the beast being described in Chapter 40. The Bible says that it was made along with humankind, but ranked first among God's creations. Meaning that it was the very first creation to dwell on Earth, but actually at one time co-existed with man.
AGAIN, THE BIBLE DOES NOT STATE A SPECIFIC TIME LINE IN RESPECTS TO EARTH DAYS, NIGHTS... This is a common misunderstanding.
I hope that this helps out... Sorry for the length.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Actually,
Aug 3, 2015, 9:10 AM
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it does give a fairly specific definition of day.
Gen 1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
If you read on in the first book of Genesis you'll see that in the following six days God performed specific acts including rest on the seventh. Evolutionist believe that the earth is millions or billions of years old. Perhaps it's true according to the first verse for God created the earth in the beginning and there's no indication of the time between the beginning and the firsts day.
I think there's a misconception between you and the OP. He asked a legitimate question and we've no sure way of knowing if he asked with the same horrible attitude Job asked when he questioned God. IMO, Job didn't seek knowledge He challenged God to show that He was justified in His allowing Job's family, fortune and health to be lost.
Those passages should apply to most here who do not believe God exist and question how a good God could allow children to die along with other some of the other horrible acts mankind commits. Perhaps that's the case here.
I chose to ignore the question even though DRMVP showed me the patients to hear me out on another thread. We decided to disagree so I failed at my attempt and resorted to praying for him instead of going through it all again.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Actually,
Aug 3, 2015, 11:51 AM
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> I think there's a misconception between you and the OP. He asked a legitimate question and we've no sure way of knowing if he asked with the same horrible attitude Job asked when he questioned God. IMO, Job didn't seek knowledge He challenged God to show that He was justified in His allowing Job's family, fortune and health to be lost.
I don't think i'm asking with horrible intentions. I do enjoy debating and learning and this seems like the appropriate forum to do it under. I'm certainly not trying to challenge God, because that would obviously be futile should he exist.
To be honest I'm simply curious to see how people reconcile huge discrepancies in what the bible says and what we find in nature, that is all. I used to do the same thing, so I understand but it still fascinates me.
> I chose to ignore the question even though DRMVP showed me the patients to hear me out on another thread. We decided to disagree so I failed at my attempt and resorted to praying for him instead of going through it all again.
I still don't agree obviously but I do appreciate that. I believe you are being sincere and that's a pretty cool thing.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Question for religious folks: Friendly debate attempt inside
Aug 3, 2015, 10:23 AM
[ in reply to Re: Question for religious folks: Friendly debate attempt inside ] |
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> Please read the following description of this animal that God is referring to Job. Then proceed to the notes below. It may or may not help you with your genuine question. (Not being a jacka$$ this time as I usually am.)
No worries, thanks for taking the time to post. I'll read and respond thoroughly and respectfully as you have.
> #1. Over 90% of all species that have ever existed on Earth are now extinct. This has been claimed by scientist for many years.
No argument here. Agreed.
> #2. The Book of Job is believed to be the oldest book of the Bible. After all someone had to be around to tell the story of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, etc...
Ok, gotcha.
> #3. They have found footprints that were preserved in a dried up river bed belonging to both human being and prehistoric creatures. Both sets of prints were in the same layer of soil as each other. So that would be some slight evidence of man and dinosaur co-existing at one point.
This is not a credible claim that is still pushed by some creationist. Those alleged human footprints are simply eroded dinosaur footprints. If this were true it would be a huge topic of discussion and it's not because it isn't credible at all.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy.html
> #4. The age of Earth is not 26,000 years old as Bill Nye and other atheist accuse the Bible of claiming. In fact, the Bible never makes any claim as to how old the Earth is. In fact, the Bible mentions that God's measurement of time is vastly different from ours. This takes extensive studying to interpret prophecy, historical events, and timelines in the Bible. When the Bible claims a 6 day of creation, it isn't necessarily a time frame of 6 Earth days. It could literally have been billions of years though some folks in the Church argue that fact on many levels.
Well, a lot of creationist do vehemently claim that the earth is only a few thousand years old. I think that's who he's referring to.
I agree with your assessment that the Bible doesn't give us an indication of how old the earth is but I don't see where it claims that the 6 days of creation were anything other than normal 6 days. I think this is just something used to try to make the timelines fit to what scientists are saying.
> #5. The word, "dinosaur" didn't become part of the vocabulary until the 18th or 19th century. Therefore, the animal referred to as Behemoth could very well be a Brontosaurus. The remains of that Dinosaur have been found all over the Middle-East and Africa primarily near dried up fresh water river beds.
No dispute on the vocabulary, i'm not hung up on bible's vernacular. The Bible very well could be referring to a dinosaurs. However, the fossil record alone clearly shows that man came a long millions of years after the dinosaurs were long gone. There is simply no way that man and dinosaurs walked together based on any evidence we have available.
> #6 In matters of carbon dating, the method does not go back any further than 8,000 years on the best proven methods of any equation. So, how can a scientist hold up a dinosaur bone and make a claim of millions of years. Granted, NASA has made the claim that the time space continuum at the threshold vacuum of a black hole is much different than the measurement of time on Earth. For example, NASA claims that 1 minute at that black hole would equal almost 1,000 years on Earth.
Well for one, carbon dating is only one of many dating methods and is never used to date fossils anyway. Btw, carbon dating can go back 50,000 years, not 8000 and is used for organic material and can't be used for fossils. Other dating methods such as potassium-argon or rubidium-strontium are used to date the surrounding strata around the fossils and not the fossils themselves necessarily.
There is no ambiguity in fossil record dating among the scientific community. Any claiming the contrary is simply being dishonest and has no empirical evidence. The fossil record shows a crystal clear timeline of the history of evolution.
> #7 Another important fact to note is that Job obviously acknowledged the beast being described in Chapter 40. The Bible says that it was made along with humankind, but ranked first among God's creations. Meaning that it was the very first creation to dwell on Earth, but actually at one time co-existed with man.
I understand that the Bible says that, however evidence very clearly contradicts those claims. How do you reconcile that fact? One of them is wrong and we can repeatably verify the fossil record so i'll let you draw your own conclusions.
> AGAIN, THE BIBLE DOES NOT STATE A SPECIFIC TIME LINE IN RESPECTS TO EARTH DAYS, NIGHTS... This is a common misunderstanding.
I really don't think there is much of a misunderstanding here, some people are simply trying to match what the bible says up to what science has observed. The Bible may not give us a specific timeline but it also doesn't seem to indicate anything other than a quick 6 day creation. That is in direct contradiction to how we know planets, stars and galaxies are formed. We can see them in different stages of formation with our own eyes all around the universe and it takes much much longer than 6 days.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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I refuse to try and prove something that's disprovable.
Aug 3, 2015, 11:56 AM
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Neither creation nor evolution is disprovable so I propose a game. You try and disprove evolution and I'll try to disprove creation. I think we'll have a blast. Let's find out what each knows of the other's beliefs. That's the only fair way to continue discussion considering the vast difference in our opinions.
I'll give you the tired old argument that carbon dating is accurate and you can reply with the opinion that without proof that the animal didn't die from smoke inhalation, via autopsy, carbon is unreliable. I'll tell you fossils are dated with K-Ar and you'll tell me without proof that no leaching or contamination of oxygen happened it too is unreliable. You'll also point out that had the fossil been dead less than six thousand years the probability that K-Ar dating would be more accurate than the probability of spending millions of years undisturbed and thereby uncontaminated.
You may pretend to be faithful enough to believe that evolution is the great deception as predicted in the second chapter of the second letter to the Thessalonians and I can get many points saying the bible is a fairy tale followed only by those who can't understand science.
Of course you should make sure your statements alienate other Christians who can't imagine where you got the concept of time, space and God's relationship to them because logic isn't in the bible and most of them think there's a line between science and scripture.
We can have the same tired argument but you'll take the ridicule. Imagine the possibilities. No?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I refuse to try and prove something that's disprovable.
Aug 3, 2015, 12:20 PM
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> Neither creation nor evolution is disprovable so I propose a game.
First of all this is false. You could absolutely disprove evolution if you had contradictory evidence. Rabbit fossils in the precambrian is a famous example that would throw a wrench into the theory of evolution.
Remember, science can never prove anything it can only support hypothesis through experimentation. With that said you can assert that a hypothesis is false if the experimentation goes against their claim.
> We can have the same tired argument but you'll take the ridicule. Imagine the possibilities. No?
I don't take your arguments as ridicule, unless you call me an ####### or something, which I don't think you have. I take them as arguments.
With that said, let me ask you this, why is it that you pretty much agree with (or I'm assuming you do at least) most of science. I.E. you see advances in medicine, the fact that we can get to the moon and beyond and even the way we are communicating right now. I'm 99% confident you would not rebuke any of the science that brought you these things.
As soon as a scientific concept such as evolution comes up, you are vehemently against it because it is in direct contradiction to your beliefs. I mean, I understand why having your beliefs challenged isn't fun or would #### you off, but don't you find a bit odd that all the sudden science "doesn't know what's it's talking about" when discussing evolution?
Did you know that it is the most researched and backed up subject in all of science? It is backed by the exact same scientific process that brought you everything I mentioned above. But I guess your religious beliefs trump all that huh? All of the scientist working around the world independently and arriving at the same conclusions are just evil brainwashed liberals right?
I also find it odd that you can't show me any evidence whatsoever (you've stated yourself several times that you can't provide evidence) and yet you are on your high religious horse looking down on me. I'm sorry bud, I'll take the plain as day evidence over religious dogma any day. One claim provides a ton of evidence, the other provides and outdated book.
Btw, I would gladly accept any evidence that you could provide, but you can't. So don't expect me to believe something you can't back up.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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You're losing your sense of humor.
Aug 3, 2015, 1:25 PM
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I don't believe that evolution is disprovable. Exactly what evidence would change your mind?
I never accused you of ridicule but just the contrary. More than once I've thanked you for letting me have my say without leveling insults to my intelligence, again I thank you.
I said 'you take the ridicule,' don't even act like some on this website don't take cheap shots and spin half of what I say only to inflict ridicule on Christians who believe the Bible accounts. I'm not looking down on you at all.
My joke was a non challenge to your position and could perhaps be a skirt of the issues which separate our opinions but solely leveled to not insult of offend. Evidently I failed.
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Only a fool would deny the advances of science and the benefits they've brought mankind. Science has given us longer and healthier lives. I know of no one who would deny this. Science along with higher mathematics has promoted mankind in unprecedented ways over the last couple of centuries. It isn't necessary to provide an exhaustive list here.
Frankly, and as far as me being against liberals, I'm against politics in general. I think anyone who follows the party line is taking the cheap way out of evaluating those who lead us. Anyone who refuses to admit their favorite candidate is flawed and guilty of going against the best interest of the country for contributions to their campaign funds is a fool. IMO, politics is the 'circus,' in the Roman Empire's 'bread and circus.'
Evolution and I parted when I discovered Darwin provided skulls of blacks as a missing link between man (that being white man) and animals. I just couldn't bear the though of my friends and the kindness and love they and their parents had shown me being considered animals. I was in about the fifth grade back then. I can't recall religion having anything to do with the issue.
When I wasn't in school or on my father's 18 wheeler with him I was at my grandmother's. She owned a country store between the black and white neighborhoods. Blacks and whites played, ate lunch and even supper sometimes together. It was in Rockwood, Tennessee which is a small town that, for the most, part escaped the political problems of racism. Personally, my black friend saved my ### many times when the football players' girl friend showed me attention. It seemed the jocks didn't want a one on one fight with me. I had a black girlfriend but we couldn't really 'date,' because her big brother didn't allow anyone close to her. The only rip Pookie Sanders gave wasn't about what color you were but how close you got to his baby sister.
I'd like to know how man has benefited from evolution. I'v asked this question before to individuals here, perhaps even you. How has evolution helped you be a better man? How has it contributed to the vast list of benefits mankind has from science. Exactly where does evolution fall within that list? Giving antibiotics a 100, exactly what score would you consider fair for evolution?
I thought it would be a fun game. This really isn't a serious discussion. I've read origins.org and true origins.org too. Both ignore the other except in places where they both can accuse the other of scientific dishonesty. I thought that was well presented in the joke.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: You're losing your sense of humor.
Aug 3, 2015, 2:15 PM
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> I don't believe that evolution is disprovable. Exactly what evidence would change your mind?
I gave one example (rabbits in the precambrian) but you act as though evidence doesn't sway me when in fact it was the evidence for evolution that did end up swaying my world view.
It would be very simple to disprove evolution with evidence. Simply find one fossil out of place or show that the earth really is only a few thousand years old and thus evolution couldn't have had time to take place.
> I never accused you of ridicule but just the contrary. More than once I've thanked you for letting me have my say without leveling insults to my intelligence, again I thank you.
Agreed, and I believe i'm still being cordial. I'm not attacking you personally, just debating. I honestly think we would have a great time over a beer, we can disagree no problem.
> I said 'you take the ridicule,' don't even act like some on this website don't take cheap shots and spin half of what I say only to inflict ridicule on Christians who believe the Bible accounts. I'm not looking down on you at all.
Oh i don't debate that at all, christians absolutely get ridiculed. However, so do muslims, hindues and athiests. I don't think christians are targeted more so than other groups. Especially when self-professed christians influence law and basically run the place. I christians are "persecuted" here, then persecution isn't all that bad.
> My joke was a non challenge to your position and could perhaps be a skirt of the issues which separate our opinions but solely leveled to not insult of offend. Evidently I failed.
You did not, I was being dense and missed your joke. My bad.
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Only a fool would deny the advances of science and the benefits they've brought mankind. Science has given us longer and healthier lives. I know of no one who would deny this. Science along with higher mathematics has promoted mankind in unprecedented ways over the last couple of centuries. It isn't necessary to provide an exhaustive list here.
> Frankly, and as far as me being against liberals, I'm against politics in general. I think anyone who follows the party line is taking the cheap way out of evaluating those who lead us. Anyone who refuses to admit their favorite candidate is flawed and guilty of going against the best interest of the country for contributions to their campaign funds is a fool. IMO, politics is the 'circus,' in the Roman Empire's 'bread and circus.'
Agreed.
> Evolution and I parted when I discovered Darwin provided skulls of blacks as a missing link between man (that being white man) and animals. I just couldn't bear the though of my friends and the kindness and love they and their parents had shown me being considered animals. I was in about the fifth grade back then. I can't recall religion having anything to do with the issue.
I've never heard of this but regardless of it's truth, Darwin's opinion on the matter is pretty irrelevant. He may be a big factor in initial discovery but the facts are what they are, not what darwin says they are. He didn't know a tenth of the knowledge we know about evolution now.
> When I wasn't in school or on my father's 18 wheeler with him I was at my grandmother's. She owned a country store between the black and white neighborhoods. Blacks and whites played, ate lunch and even supper sometimes together. It was in Rockwood, Tennessee which is a small town that, for the most, part escaped the political problems of racism. Personally, my black friend saved my ### many times when the football players' girl friend showed me attention. It seemed the jocks didn't want a one on one fight with me. I had a black girlfriend but we couldn't really 'date,' because her big brother didn't allow anyone close to her. The only rip Pookie Sanders gave wasn't about what color you were but how close you got to his baby sister.
I'm not racist either but I'm not sure what racial issues have to do with the fact of evolution.... Believing in evolution does not mean you are racist.
> I'd like to know how man has benefited from evolution. I'v asked this question before to individuals here, perhaps even you. How has evolution helped you be a better man?
Well it quite literally allowed me to be a man, so we can thank it for our existence. That's pretty much the best help you can get.
> How has it contributed to the vast list of benefits mankind has from science.
Evolution is the cornerstone of modern biology, understanding it gives us a ton of knowledge in the medical field. It's an undeniably huge benefit no?
> Exactly where does evolution fall within that list? Giving antibiotics a 100, exactly what score would you consider fair for evolution?
It's a little ironic that you would ask how knowledge of evolution helps us and then pit it up against antibiotics. You realize that because of evolution, antibiotics become less effective over time right because the bacteria develops resistance? Thus our knowledge of this process is paramount.
> I thought it would be a fun game. This really isn't a serious discussion. I've read origins.org and true origins.org too. Both ignore the other except in places where they both can accuse the other of scientific dishonesty. I thought that was well presented in the joke.
Please show me where science is being dishonest regarding the fossil record, i'd truly love to know. I'm not sure what they could even be untruthful about. If you find simple life in older layers and more complex life forms as you make your way into the younger layers, you tell me for yourself what that means.
Many scientists around the world independently come to this same conclusion because it's a simple and repeatable phenomena. The only liars here are the creationists spreading the idea that our dating methods don't work and that dinosaurs walked with humans. Please.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Re: You're losing your sense of humor.
Aug 3, 2015, 2:20 PM
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No man. I asked for evidence that would change your mind not evidence that you assume may prove evolution to me.
If I though evolution allowed me to be a man I'd be grateful too. You know those who don't believe evolution is science are dismissed as ignorant backwoods rednecks, no matter that they have the same education and background as the average majority of evolutionist. The are ostracized from the community by the vast number of those who make their livings finding 'evidence of evolution.'
I didn't mean to accuse anyone here of racism. I was using my relationship with minorities as the first example of why I disagreed with evolution. My fifth grade teacher, Ms Lourmer (pronounded larimer, I don't know the proper spelling) told us that blacks were the proposed missing link. You can't make this stuff up, brother.
Anyway, I'll look into the rabbits in the precambrian era example. I'm still looking for how evolution weighs in as helping mankind other than giving some something other than God in which to believe.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: You're losing your sense of humor.
Aug 3, 2015, 2:26 PM
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> No man. I asked for evidence that would change your mind not evidence that you assume may prove evolution to me.
But I answered you... twice. To be a clear as possible, any evidence to the contrary would do it.
Here is a good example that explains much better than I can: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Falsifiability_of_evolution
Here is an excerpt of things that would do it for me:
"If it could be shown that mutations do not occur.
If it could be shown that organisms with identical DNA have different genetic traits.
If it could be shown that when mutations do occur, they are not passed down through the generations.
If it could be shown that although mutations are passed down, no mutation could produce the sort of phenotypic changes that drive natural selection.
If it could be shown that selection or environmental pressures do not favor the reproductive success of better adapted individuals.
If it could be shown that even though selection or environmental pressures favor the reproductive success of better adapted individuals, "better adapted individuals" (at any one time) are not shown to change into other species."
I have plenty of evidence for evolution, so much so that there is no longer any reason to debate it. We no longer question that the earth is round do we? No reason to as it's clear that it's a fact. Now there are still many details of evolution that we are unclear about, I'm not contesting that. But the overwhelming fact that life started simple and gradually became more complex is not under scrutiny by the scientific community. A single shred of evidence to the contrary could dismantle it all, but it hasn't....
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Re: You're losing your sense of humor.
Aug 3, 2015, 2:51 PM
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How about the probability that K-Ar remained uncontaminated for millions to billions of years knowing that rain falling on the first layer of soil that covered it would dilute, thereby contaminate the sample?
Math says that if the chance drops below 1 in 45K then it didn't happen.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: You're losing your sense of humor.
Aug 3, 2015, 4:14 PM
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Let's say you are correct and there is some contamination. Scientist cross-compare with different isotope pairs that confirm each other. This contamination would be weeded out during this comparison.
Furthermore, even if the dating is off, the sequence that the fossils appear in are consistent so that still shows the progression of life from simple to complex.
Is radiometric dating perfect? No, but you make it sound like it's extremely inaccurate and unreliable.
You often ask me "what would it take to change your mind". Well, CT1988, what exactly would it take for you?
It's pretty clear what the fossil record shows, so consider these points:
1. We find fossils in different layers of strata.
2. We can accurately date these with radiometric dating methods.
3. Older layers have simpler life forms while younger ones have more complex
4. To top it off, we have DNA which independently confirms this. If you map out the genomes we find in the animal kingdom, it creates a "Phylogenetic Tree of Life". And guess what, it's the exact same map that we see in the fossil record. How you can deny what this means I have no idea.
If that isn't absolutely overwhelming evidence in favor of evolution, I'm not sure what is. In fact, I think you would have to be willfully ignorant to deny those.
These are not some "theories" that evil liberal scientists are concocting, they are simply the evidence we see all around ,and quite literally, in us.
Tree of life
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Tree_of_life_SVG.svg
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Re: You're losing your sense of humor.
Aug 3, 2015, 6:40 PM
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If dating is off then how can we know what the order was? Did I miss something?
If a sample is contaminated then it can't be dated. How many samples do we have that are not contaminated and how can we be sure they are not contaminated. It seem ambiguous or circular to compare dating from a contaminated sample to find some average. They throw out numbers not fossils.
Radioactive dating? How do we prove that no daughter elements were in a sample when the fossil was buried? How do we know that solar flares don't radically alter the deterioration rate? How about other contamination to the method such pulsars or other wave generating phenomena?
Do these questions go unaddressed for a reason?
No dating method is reliable enough to meet the scientific demand. It must be observable and
reproducible to be scientific.
It's impossible to prove something didn't happen. I hope you appreciate that my best effort will only cast doubt with those who seek and outlet from evolutionist. I don't expect anything to change between us.
We still on for Friday Fun?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: You're losing your sense of humor.
Aug 3, 2015, 8:32 PM
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> If dating is off then how can we know what the order was? Did I miss something?
Sorry if unclear, but if the dating is off but consistently off then the order would still be preserved. I.E. if dating told us it was 1 million years but it was actually 1000, then that would affect the timescale but not the order. Obviously if it was all over the place then no order could be obtained. however this is not the case and fossils are dated consistently across the globe with multiple methods. It's about as clear cut as it gets.
Also, did you miss the part where the dating was cross compared to other methods for accuracy? When they do that, they still match... Are you saying that each dating method is consistently inaccurate even though they decay at different rates? Now that would be a statistical anomaly.
If your whole argument is that our radiometric dating methods are off then you in for a big surprise.
Also, just out of curiosity, are you saying that 99% of scientists have all used wildly inaccurate dating methods and yet arrive at the same conclusions? That does not compute, it seems you have something clouding your judgement just a bit...
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Labs do the dating.
Aug 3, 2015, 8:40 PM
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'Scientist,' just tell them the general age they are seeking.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Labs do the dating.
Aug 3, 2015, 10:49 PM
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I don't even know what to say to that other than boy has our education system failed us.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Why not a expose written by a neutral party...
Aug 4, 2015, 1:25 PM
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like me? The link reveals that it's a biased article from evolutionist. 'Oh, that would be ridiculous,' you say, everybody knows you're biased.' 'That's my point,' says I.
Btw, being accused of ignorance is pretty mild but then that's a two way street from my perspective.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Why not a expose written by a neutral party...
Aug 4, 2015, 1:51 PM
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The article clearly refutes each of the creationists claims, some of which you have directly stated with me. This particular article also references it sources for the science in question, which parts (other than calling your claims ridiculous) do you have an issue with?
It points out the ridiculousness of creationist arguments because, well they are ridiculous and unfounded.
If you don't like that particular source, that's fine, how about these?
http://geomaps.wr.usgs.gov/parks/gtime/ageofearth.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth (Yes it's wikipedia but you can see the sources it references yourself)
http://www.nature.nps.gov/geology/education/concepts/concepts_geotime.cfm
Every single one of them is going to show you definitely that radiometric dating methods are accurate and reliable, because they are.
You haven't answered this question for me yet either. If one radiometric dating method is used and then compared to another method (that has a different decay rate) and yet they still yield the same result. How do you account for that if it's so inaccurate. Especially when you can see these measurements match up in experiment after experiment. You are saying that all of these scientists are using wildly inaccurate dating methods and yet getting the same results over and over? Now that my friend takes a lot of faith.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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WELL, I NEVER!
Aug 4, 2015, 2:53 PM
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How dare you add evolution to the list with taxes and death? I guess I'm just wrong thinking evolution was still a theory.
Agree to disagree without further insults and ruining all the fun and comradery we've had?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: WELL, I NEVER!
Aug 4, 2015, 2:58 PM
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> How dare you add evolution to the list with taxes and death? I guess I'm just wrong thinking evolution was still a theory.
I suppose gravity is just a theory as well? It's hard to tell if you are joking so just in case:
Scientific Theory: "A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation."
It's not the same as when we use the word colloquially.
> Agree to disagree without further insults and ruining all the fun and comradery we've had?
Well once the debate starts digressing into conspiracy theory I suppose it's time to give up. I'm not insulting you personally btw, just the belief you hold about one particular scientific being way off while all others are pretty much up to snuff. Seems crazy.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Wait, I guess I have.
Aug 4, 2015, 6:43 PM
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Ignorant and crazy in the same thread? ###!
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110%er [9107]
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You're spinning your wheels.
Aug 4, 2015, 2:28 PM
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I get it, it's frustrating.
Believe me, I know - there's a guy on tigerillustrated who stated explicitly that he thought much of the science of astrophysics was made up simply to support evolutionary theory - i.e. things like the Kuiper Belt (possibly a birthplace of some comets - which NASA's New Horizons spacecraft will actually travel through shortly) are actually made up in an effort to support a timeline/age of the earth theory that would lend credence to evolution.
He literally thinks that there is a conspiracy across the planet, in dozens of different countries with multiple different religions/beliefs (all of who come to the same conclusions BTW in regards to the age of the earth), to make up branches of science full of false data simply to lend credence to evolution in an effort to discredit young earth creationism/the bible. It's insane.
My point is, while I applaud your efforts, some folks just want to believe what they want to believe. There is no convincing them, regardless of the evidence. If they already believe in something despite a lack of evidence, why would they pay any attention to any evidence you may provide?
At any rate, good luck lol.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: You're spinning your wheels.
Aug 4, 2015, 3:01 PM
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hehe.
Well I mostly agree with you except that I used to believe the religious non-sense myself. Forums like this one helped me understand my flawed worldview when they picked apart my logic with ease. I'm not out to save the world with science or anything like that but if there is anywhere to debate such topics it would be the religion/politics board. I really enjoy it so I'm going to keep doing it.
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