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I, too, woke up surprised...
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All-In [42151]
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I, too, woke up surprised...
Nov 9, 2022, 10:42 AM
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Because I expected a "red wave" as well. The economy is just too much of a mess and Biden's admin is too incompetent; how could the GOP not make huge gains? Historically, that's what it pointed to.
And as we know, it's the independents who make this call because most Dems and Pubs are going to vote lock-step, especially in this partisan age. And I figured America's independents would overwhelmingly vote Pub because of the economy.
I can only imagine there's one reason that didn't happen: The Pubs are still too committed to Trump and the crazy. Middle America doesn't want nuts like MTG running things. They don't want books banned. They don't like the abortion overreach. They don't want all the authoritarian crap the Trump wing of the GOP has been peddling. And they were willing to look past the economy because of it.
I know many of the residents here are going to scoff at this idea. They'll claim election shenanigans or claim more conspiracies or they'll laugh at the idea that most of the America doesn't lap up the #### they're pooping out. It's easy to think that when you live in your little red bubble in Taylors or Gaffney or Pendleton or Cayce or wherever the #### you are. You and this board ain't the norm in America.
But scoff at it at your own peril because a fairly concerning message was sent to the GOP yesterday. It was as ripe as it's ever been for the GOP to take control with a weak president and a bad economy, yet independent voters resoundingly said they still don't like the stink of Trump and his extremism. Better start looking to your Nikkis and Tim Scotts and Pences and such.
The GOP better find a way to purge the party of it by 2024 or we may be slogging through another four years of an octogenarian and an inept Dem Congress. And some folks here may want to dial back their own crazy when talking with the public so others don't get the impression that you represent the GOP ideology.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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Re: I, too, woke up surprised...
Nov 9, 2022, 10:46 AM
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Agree with most of this...if GOP can cut Trump, they have a much better bench than the democrats. I say send Lindsey Graham and Mitch McConnell packing too.
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All-In [42151]
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Re: I, too, woke up surprised...
Nov 9, 2022, 10:49 AM
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It's probably long overdue to send Mitch packing, but they honestly may want to look to him to bring this party back to what it used to be. He's kept Trump at enough of an arm's distance that he can pull it off.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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If there is one thing Trumplicans can do to make Democrats
Nov 9, 2022, 10:54 AM
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happy and shoot themselves in the foot all over again, it's get rid of Mitch McConnell.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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I think the only people who want the GOP to go back to the
Nov 9, 2022, 11:03 AM
[ in reply to Re: I, too, woke up surprised... ] |
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party it used to be are Democrats and people stuck in 1988. Most people don't want the q-anon crazies, but they also recognize people like Mitch are a big reason we are where we are. Time for them to go home.
That same sentiment is largely what got Trump elected, not some fanatical devotion to the man himself...Which is the larger point everybody recognized right after the 2016 election and then immediately forgot, but I digress.
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All-In [42151]
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The Democrats want it to go back?
Nov 9, 2022, 11:08 AM
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I highly doubt it considering yesterday and two years ago.
Trump is dragging the GOP down. This should have been a Pub curbstomp.
Trump won as an anomaly in 2016. The majority of America never wanted him. He won the EC in a way that's only happened five times in U.S. history, his included.
There was never, ever a movement by most of America to get behind Trumpism. The 2016 election has clouded too many Pubs into thinking this is what America wanted.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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You're confusing trumpism(whatever that actually is) with
Nov 9, 2022, 11:35 AM
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the overriding anti establishment sentiment that got him elected. It is definitely time for Trump to go away, and I think the Desantis results show that's the kind of direction many GOP voters want to head.
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All-In [42151]
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Re: You're confusing trumpism(whatever that actually is) with
Nov 9, 2022, 11:54 AM
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My point is that there wasn't "overriding anti establishment sentiment" that got him elected. It got him through the primary, but the majority of the America didn't want it. He got just enough to pull off the rare EC win without the popular vote. But the majority of America has always rejected him and his ideology.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Most people actually liked his policies aside from a few
Nov 9, 2022, 12:09 PM
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things here and there, it was his personality that was/is off-putting.
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All-In [42151]
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No, they didn't.
Nov 9, 2022, 12:40 PM
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His approval ratings for job performance were abysmal. His disapproval ratings were even worse. By 2019, most Americans felt he had worsened race relations (56 percent). You found a few cases where he won support as a majority, but most of his moves were met with disapproval.
I do have the numbers to back this but they're extensive; not going to bother unless you want them.
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Lot o points [155901]
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You think any approval rating at all wasn't colored by his
Nov 9, 2022, 12:55 PM
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personality???
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All-In [42151]
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I'm certain it was...
Nov 9, 2022, 1:07 PM
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Doesn't change that polling also showed most of America disapproved of his policies, or, at least, that Bum's statement that "most people actually liked his policies" is incorrect.
But I welcome anything that proves that claim right.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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Nope. You can't see my portfolio...***
Nov 9, 2022, 1:09 PM
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Lot o points [155901]
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well, yeah.
Nov 9, 2022, 1:39 PM
[ in reply to I'm certain it was... ] |
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I'm not sure how much data is needed to show people enjoyed high employment, the first wage growth in about 20 years, great market returns, and zero new foreign wars.
Were those all a 1:1 result of his policies? Of course not, but his policies didn't do anything to screw those up either, which seems more relevant for judging the executive branch.
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All-In [42151]
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Re: well, yeah.
Nov 9, 2022, 1:46 PM
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But clearly the American public did not place that all on Trump's shoulders (nor should they have) and disagreed with most of his policies. The statement that America loved what Trump implemented simply isn't true, and much of that economic success came on the heels of other factors.
It seems the idea that most of America loved Trump is this ongoing myth that baffles people as to why he was booted out (and why yesterday happened), and until that myth is shattered, the GOP is going to suffer because of it.
Most of America has ALWAYS been against the man and his ideology/policies. It never changed. Not once.
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Lot o points [155901]
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Who the heck says most of America loved him?
Nov 9, 2022, 1:57 PM
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I think, when it comes down to it (and no, I don't have time to pursue stats, this is pure finger in the wind), a majority (51%+) of Americans:
1) Were for the remain in Mexico policy and the all-too-brief stability it helped bring to the border.
2) Were for the lack of foreign military interventionism.
3) Were for (at least on a macro level, if not a wonky level of familiarity) the corporate deregulation that spurred corporate investment and growth.
4) Were for de-restricting energy exploration and permitting and the Keystone pipeline. Sure, it's absolutely debatable how much impact those had on energy prices vs basic market forces, but I still say more would be for those as a concept.
Did they love everything? Nah---the wall effort was widely ridiculed (it was a poor, simplistic face on the idea of controlling illegal immigration, which more probably do agree with). His impact on the national debt was abysmal and I think most would agree with that, and his tariff efforts were definitely only popular with a minority.
Beyond that, the guy never had a ton of actual "policy" to examine. A whole lot more bombast and bluster and throw it against the wall populist ideas, but no true policy to evaluate popularity against.
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All-In [42151]
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Do you remember I'm addressing this claim:
Nov 9, 2022, 2:10 PM
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Most people actually liked his policies aside from a few things here and there.
This claim is false.
To your points:
1. While Americans favored shipping back illegal criminals, the American majority clearly opposed building the wall (and that's from a metric ### load of polls on it). They also opposed his views on refugees.
You list a few other things that I'm pretty sure you're correct about, but again, that's picking just a few. Most of his policies were not favored.
That's the point on how far this thread has gone. On the whole, he and his policies did not have majority American support.
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Lot o points [155901]
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That's the thing, with a few exceptions, I think I did just
Nov 9, 2022, 2:18 PM
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pretty well encapsulate his policies. I know it wasn't an exhaustive list but there wasn't much more pure policy stuff than that.
His biggest issue was that there was sooooooo much additional noise, static, and interference that just swallowed and distorted or diluted what policies were. It was hard work to separate the man and his flaws from actual policy, which is why it's completely unsurprising that almost any approval rating poll would have been a referendum on him being an a-hole over a legit attempt to examine policy.
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All-In [42151]
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Take this as a reply to both of ya...
Nov 9, 2022, 2:53 PM
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I'm going on poll numbers on a variety of his policies. That's it. They were not favorable toward him. You can find some exceptions, but his overall scorecard wasn't good. And approval/disapproval ratings are also generally reflection of that as it's asking about the job he's doing.
The fact that he was an ### hole only made it worse for him.
I again go back to Bum's statement which is simply what I'm arguing against. No, "most" people did not like his policies and that has been reflected in polling, ratings, and two presidential elections.
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Lot o points [155901]
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agree to disagree.
Nov 9, 2022, 3:08 PM
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You're trying too hard to separate the man from the actions. No one ever did that with Trump. If it was a poll on his immigration policies, well over half the respondents were responding with "He called immigrants rapists!" coloring their response. There was literally no policy of his that wasn't colored with extracurricular opinion. If he didn't do it to himself with his fat mouth, the media did it for him.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Hey, I'd give you a TU here but with the add AIDS on
Nov 9, 2022, 3:17 PM
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tiger net I can just barely see the R on the reply button so I wanted you to know that I approved of, and appreciated your post. Go Tigers!
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All-In [42151]
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Contributing to the problem by adding another reply.***
Nov 9, 2022, 5:43 PM
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All-In [42151]
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Then in that case...
Nov 9, 2022, 5:44 PM
[ in reply to agree to disagree. ] |
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We're just running on conjecture. Maybe you're right, maybe I am. Either way, I think it's obvious they have to purge him.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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And the point you're missing is that people do not separate
Nov 9, 2022, 3:14 PM
[ in reply to Take this as a reply to both of ya... ] |
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the man from his policies, he could be advocating to give you a billion dollars and you'd still say you disapproved of that policy by virtue of him being Trump. That is what's being reflected in the polling, when you look at polling for issues in general, many of the problems he was trying to address has pretty broad support...Getting illegal immigration under control, bolstering the economy through deregulation and energy independence, not getting us into new wars, getting our allies to share some of the cost of their own defense...Those type of things.
People have no idea what's really happening anyway, look at all of the people who think SCOTUS made abortion illegal. We are a nation of low information voters. Now we've got a president who campaigned on killing fossil fuels, yet they've got people convinced that has nothing to do with the skyrocketing fuel prices.
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All-In [42151]
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Re: And the point you're missing is that people do not separate
Nov 9, 2022, 5:46 PM
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But if people aren't separating that, you don't have any real data to show that they support most of his policies when removing his jackassery from the equation. What we do have is data that he is a cancer to most Americans and after yesterday, a clear anchor to all Republicans who embrace him.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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What were his views on refugees?
Nov 9, 2022, 2:24 PM
[ in reply to Do you remember I'm addressing this claim: ] |
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The wall debate was quite memorable, I think watching a bunch of otherwise intelligent individuals trying to argue that a physical barrier does not the disrupt the movement of people, despite centuries of evidence to the contrary, was really eye opening to me.
Even on P&R board, most if not all of the qualms with him were regarding his bombastic, immature personality.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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I know his "tax cut"sucked ###.
Nov 9, 2022, 2:29 PM
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Killed all my deductions. I've been paying $5k-%10K at year end since then.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Helped a lot of people though. I didn't like his bump stop
Nov 9, 2022, 2:41 PM
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ban, spending, or everything he did, but juxtaposed with the kind of policies we're getting from Democrats (insane green energy initiatives, bail "reform", gun control, etc) he really wasn't that bad. Then again, I'm not looking for the president to be my child's role model either, so personality isn't a huge driving factor to me.
I do think the Ukraine stuff is bipartisan enough that we'd be dumping money into that black hole with no oversight regardless of the party in charge.
Either way, it is indeed time to move past him and has been for awhile. I think his attacks on Desantis will hasten his exit from national politics.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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I'd like to see what Desantis could do.
Nov 9, 2022, 2:51 PM
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We've seen the baggage trump carries. Desantis is certainly educated enough, and folks in Florida seem to like him.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Talking to some folks who went to listen to Tim Scott
Nov 9, 2022, 2:59 PM
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speak at Notre Dame last week, they got the impression he may be gearing up for a run too.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Most of that was due to peoples dislike of him as a person,
Nov 9, 2022, 2:17 PM
[ in reply to No, they didn't. ] |
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not the impacts of his actual policy. I'd say your stat about most Americans felt he worsened race relations proves that, because what policy did he ever implement that worsened race relations? Our current administration is legitimately trying to give govt. aide to people based on the color of their skin, yet nobody is talking about how they are worsening race relations.
Despite the never-ending propaganda that he was going to start WWIII his foreign policy was good, deregulation in industry was a net positive for the economy, as was the push for energy exploration/independence, and he was the first in a loooong time to actually try to do something about illegal immigration. These are all popular moves with people in the real world, particularly amongst those who don't live in lala land thinking we can power an industrialized nation with windmills and solar panels.
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All-TigerNet [13105]
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Lazy take
Nov 9, 2022, 10:46 AM
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Cities want socialism, rurals want to be left alone. It’s as simple as that. The deciding factor is that the population of the cities are greater (even with their staunch abortion support, weird).
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All-In [42151]
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That's an ignorant take
Nov 9, 2022, 10:48 AM
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Independents are everywhere and they ultimately give the push. They usually are fed up with incumbents and overwhelmingly make big changes in midterms to send a message to the ruling party. That didn't happen here even in a bad economy.
Y'all better start looking inward and cleanse your party of Trumpism if you want to take control again.
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All-In [26503]
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All-In [42151]
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Now show me the independents on that map.***
Nov 9, 2022, 12:40 PM
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All-In [26503]
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I can't .... they never win elections.***
Nov 9, 2022, 1:44 PM
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All-In [42151]
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They just decide them.
Nov 9, 2022, 1:46 PM
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And they have said in the last two that they won't put up with Trumpism anymore.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I, too, woke up surprised...
Nov 9, 2022, 11:07 AM
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I think you're right. Just from looking at a few races, it looks to me republican candidates tied to the hip of Trump underperformed republican candidates NOT tied to the hip of Trump.
I'll also say it looks like dems over performed. I was totally wrong in thinking many would stay home but that doesn't look to be the case. I can't help but wonder if Trump announcing he has a big announcement to make next week may have energized some dems.
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Hall of Famer [22942]
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Sounds right to me
Nov 9, 2022, 11:27 AM
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***
I can only imagine there's one reason that didn't happen: The Pubs are still too committed to Trump and the crazy. Middle America doesn't want nuts like MTG running things. They don't want books banned. They don't like the abortion overreach. They don't want all the authoritarian crap the Trump wing of the GOP has been peddling. And they were willing to look past the economy because of it.
***
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Heisman Winner [111575]
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Re: I, too, woke up surprised...
Nov 9, 2022, 11:46 AM
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the back pedaling has already begun, several regulars have come out of the closet just today.
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110%er [9664]
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I think abortion won the day. Exit polls (I hate polls)
Nov 9, 2022, 1:23 PM
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showed 32% cared most about the economy - 24% cared most about abortion. That 24% is entirely single-issue voters. They will vote for/against abortion no matter what else is going on in the country/world. And there were a Shiite load more coming out voting "for" abortion due to Roe-v-Wade.
That said - yes I also think there are more people who will vote against anything Trump than there are folks who will vote for anything Trump. So the Pubs do need him to exit stage left.
In NC - in the primaries, Budd had a lot of commercials featuring him with Trump. In the general election - 0 ads featuring him with Trump...
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110%er [5675]
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Re: I think abortion won the day. Exit polls (I hate polls)
Nov 9, 2022, 1:45 PM
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Yep, and you would be surprised how many of the 24% don't really know what the SC ruling meant. They are stuck in their liberal echo chamber.
My neighbor's 20-something daughter is an example. She knows nothing except women can't have abortions and it's the fault of republicans.
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All-In [42151]
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Perhaps then the state parties shouldn't have overplayed...
Nov 9, 2022, 1:48 PM
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Their hands with nonsense like making women go to other states when their lives are in danger or trying to force teen rape victims to have kids.
Perhaps maybe--just maybe--if they had cooled their heels a little bit after the ruling and waited until the midterms passed, this wouldn't have been an issue.
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110%er [9664]
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Politically - I think every state should have done what
Nov 9, 2022, 2:13 PM
[ in reply to Re: I think abortion won the day. Exit polls (I hate polls) ] |
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Kansas did - put it to a vote.
Most people (I think) want legalized abortion - admittedly, I'm not sure exactly what the Kansas vote specifically entailed.
NC is close to a super majority for Pubs in the state house (it was still in doubt last night). Theoretically, they could put a major kibosh on abortion in this state...
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