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YOUR BALANCE
Case Study: Leonard Hamilton
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Case Study: Leonard Hamilton


Feb 11, 2020, 1:09 PM

I have seen some posts here asking why Clemson can't be dominant in basketball if FSU can. Fair question!

Let's look at Lenoard Hamilton's coaching record:

-He was hired in 1986 by Oklahoma State. As their head coach, he went 56-63 (.471) overall in four years. His conference record was 21-35 (.375). No NCAA Tournament appearances. Two of those four seasons were losing seasons. His highest win total for a season was 17 (twice).
-In 1990, he was hired by Miami. As their head coach, he was 144-147 (.495) overall in 10 years. His conference record there was 73-87 (.456). He made the NCAA Tournament 3 of those 10 years. However, he didn't make his first NCAA Tournament until year 8 at Miami (his 12th year of coaching overall).
-In 2002, he was hired by Florida State. He is in his 18th year at FSU. During that time, he has made the NCAA Tournament 7 times. However, it took him 7 years to make his first NCAA Tournament at FSU.

Interestingly, if we look at Hamilton's performance at FSU, we see NIT appearances in 4 of his first 6 years, then an NCAA Tournament appearance in his 8th season. They made 4 straight NCAAS, followed by 4 years of not making it (one of which included no postseason play). Since then, they have made the NCAAs each of the last 3 years. That streak will surely continue this year.

I post this to show that every good coach doesn't start out strong, nor do they build their programs to a level of performance and keep them there consistently at first.

I suspect that some of you would've wanted to run off Hamilton on many occasions if he were our coach. FSU's fans probably did too. Thankfully, they stuck with him and they have a great basketball program to show for it.

Disclaimer: This post isn't to suggest or imply that Brownell will all of a sudden turn us into a great basketball program. Leonard Hamilton was simply offered as an example of a coach who many people probably doubted, but he persevered and showed what he can do. For whatever reason, he turned things around and has had success. In other words, you can't necessarily conclude that a coach's first X number of years will necessarily continue at the same trend in the future (whether that record be good, bad, or in between).

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton


Feb 11, 2020, 1:16 PM

No excuse Hamilton is the better coach. He recruits better than Brad.

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Have you considered the fact that Hamilton hasn't always


Feb 11, 2020, 1:26 PM

recruited well?

My guess is that continuity as FSU's head coach has allowed him to have the support of his administration while continuing to build recruiting relationships.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


STOP!


Feb 11, 2020, 9:47 PM

Look at the comparison of accomplishments and the head to head record. You are only digging a bigger hole, but I just don't think you see it. That seems to be an issue - you just don't see the big picture very well.

Your will in this fight is to be respected, but the facts do not support your efforts.

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Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton


Feb 11, 2020, 1:46 PM [ in reply to Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton ]

His recruiting parameters are a bit more lenient, sir. FSU and Clemson have their own set of academic qualifications. My guess is that those at Clemson are a bit tougher. I would also expect that was the case when looking at FB recruits the in the B. Bowden and J. Fisher programs.
It is not an excuse but it is a consideration when recruiting student athletes. Leonard has built a powerhouse of an ACC basketball team. They come from a broad range of backgrounds/places.
I am sadly disappointed with Coach BBs current MBB team. I also wonder about the strength and conditioning coaches with the program based on the number of injuries & duration of disability. Some of the current team guys play--at times--like they are in a schoolyard pick-up game. Letting them continue to perform like that is a coaching blunder. Sit them on the "pine" & incent some corrections.

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Come on man, academic standards have nothing to do with it.


Feb 11, 2020, 9:49 PM

You cant even begin to convince me that acadenic standards have prohibited us from getting better players.

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Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton


Feb 11, 2020, 1:19 PM

Comparing Brad to Hamilton is Apples and Oranges. Brad doesnt hold a candle even to Hamilton's early years.

You want to compare than look at Hamilton and Oliver Purnell when he was here. OP had a better record vs Hamilton when he was here and won more games than FSU. I'll continue to argue just because didn't when a tourney game or had a couple of lean years in recruiting doesn't mean he was going to struggle the rest of his long term just like Hamilton.

I'm not saying bring back OP either. Just that was a better comparison. What I am saying is we can find a better coach than Brad who might be more similar to Hamilton.

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Did you read my post?


Feb 11, 2020, 1:43 PM

I wasn't comparing Hamilton to Brad. I specifically stated that my post wasn't intended to suggest that Brad will make us an amazing basketball program. The point is that Hamilton's trajectory has not been a straight line of consistent improvement. It took him a while to see success, and even when he did, he didn't maintain things at that level. I found it an interesting case study, since we tend to view improvement as a linear process that occurs on a certain timetable.

Hamilton's early years included multiple losing seasons. He didn't make an NCAA until his 12th year as a head coach. Even at FSU, it took him 7 years to make one.

Again, my intention wasn't to compare Brownell and Hamilton, but if you want to compare tenures, we can:

Brad has been a head coach for 17 years. In those 17 years, Brad is 336-212 (.613). This includes 5 NCAA Tournament appearances.

In Leonard Hamilton's first 17 years as a head coach, he was 245-258 (.487). This included 3 NCAA Tournament appearances.

So yes, it is apples and oranges, because one coach has a winning record (over 60% actually) and the other had a losing record. Brad is clearly ahead of where Hamilton was at this point.

OP isn't a good comparison either, as OP had a track record at each of his coaching stops of turning programs around. His teams showed improvement each year until reaching a consistent level. Hamilton hasn't shown that trend. However, his current level of success at FSU is way beyond what OP or Brownell has accomplished.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Did you read my post?


Feb 11, 2020, 1:50 PM

Trying to compare Brownell's seasons at a low major and mid major against Hamilton early season's - all at high major programs - is disingenuous at best. And you know it.

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Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


I only compared them because nctigs did.


Feb 11, 2020, 1:55 PM

Again, my original post was about Leonard Hamilton, not Brad Brownell.

You just can't help yourself from arguing and being negative, can you?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I only compared them because nctigs did.


Feb 11, 2020, 3:00 PM

Umm, I’m responding directly to a post where you compare the first 17 seasons of each coach. So your response is a complete fallacy.

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Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


It was about Brad, and you know it.***

1

Feb 11, 2020, 6:27 PM [ in reply to I only compared them because nctigs did. ]



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No, it wasn’t.


Feb 11, 2020, 8:47 PM

If I wanted to make it about Brad, I would’ve said so. I have no problem speaking my mind here, as you know.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


But you talked as much about Hamilton, trying


Feb 11, 2020, 9:55 PM

to justify Brad's (below?) mediocre tenure here at Clemson. You talk in circles and never reach a valid point.

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I talked almost exclusively about Hamilton


Feb 12, 2020, 10:50 AM

because he was the point of my original post.

I'll help you catch up here:

-Fans are frustrated about our basketball program
-Most TigerNet posters want a new coach
-There has been discussion in recent days about coaches who were successful at football schools (e.g., Donovan at Florida)
-As a result, I decided to see how Leonard Hamilton's career has gone, because FSU is another example of a coach who has done well at a football school
-I posted about Hamilton's career, which I found noteworthy because he took a long time to reach an NCAA Tournament
-I made it clear that I was not talking about Brownell or Clemson, or drawing any comparisons.

Here's the thing: even if I were comparing Hamilton to Brownell, it would be a pretty poor comparison because Brad had much better success than Hamilton early in his career. His overall record and NCAA appearances are better. To further contrast them, Hamilton has built a great program at FSU, including a lot of NCAA appearances lately including an Elite Eight. Brad has not done this.

If you would take what is said at face value, you would see that my point was very clear.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


So you just randomly decided to do a “case study” on Hamilton’s career?

1

Feb 12, 2020, 11:33 AM [ in reply to No, it wasn’t. ]

and share it with Clemson fans?

That’s odd.

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Wait, you just said you didn't compare them?***


Feb 11, 2020, 9:52 PM [ in reply to I only compared them because nctigs did. ]



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Again, I will break this down for you.


Feb 12, 2020, 10:52 AM

I was not comparing them in my original post. The point was to focus on Leonard Hamilton. I made this clear in my post.

In his response to that post, nctigs did compare the two. I responded to him, saying that my intention was not to compare, but since he brought it up I continued his line of thinking.

Why do you find this difficult?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton


Feb 11, 2020, 3:58 PM [ in reply to Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton ]

Nctigs there is no way you read original post. You must be blind

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I have often wished he would fire Brownell, but I've never


Feb 11, 2020, 9:35 PM [ in reply to Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton ]

wished to have Purnell back!

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Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton


Feb 11, 2020, 1:33 PM

I often think of Hamilton as a good example of what can be achieved in the ACC if you arent Duke or UNC. He finds guys from all over. Many are international guys. I dont say Brad doesnt do that but he is much less successful at that than Hamilton. Hamilton also has a long time assistant, Stan Jones, who they talked about last night who is a great tactician. Our assistant ranks have not been that stable.

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Staff continuity is underrated.


Feb 11, 2020, 1:45 PM

It's not only about having the right staff, but being able to keep them. I believe this has been a big reason for our success in football.

Brad has had difficulty keeping staff intact. This is partly due to guys taking head coaching jobs, which is a good problem to have. However, there have been times (especially early in Brad's tenure) when we lost assistant coaches because the budget was not there to give them raises. That seems to be better now, and hopefully the current staff can stay relatively intact moving forward.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Odd it's so hard to pull a coach out of the game.


Feb 11, 2020, 2:20 PM

I am not saying Brownell needs to be fired. I am commenting on the fact coaches get many more chances than players get.

In baseball managers pull pitchers having an off day all the time and cut others in the spring or fall. In football and basketball every coach chooses who plays and who doesn't play based on performance. Every coach in every sport has to tell young guys they did not make the team and tell old guys their time in the game is over.

Coaches and manager routinely pull a player who is not contributing out of the game trying to find someone who can contribute. A guy can't hit, can't block, tackle or whatever and he is gone. Given that reality it always seems odd to me that when it comes time to pull a coach off the court and tell him the owner or the program is moving in a different direction, the whole equation of 'perform or be gone' just sort of evaporates. In place of a simple 'we're not winning enough and we're making a change' the perform or be gone story evolves into a litany of all the reasons it's not the coaches fault or responsibility that his team is not winning enough, he needs more time to 'get his players', his guys are injury prone, the other teams have been better forever and so on and so forth.

We kept Tommy Bowden too long. In 2002 after back to back 7 win seasons, we should have made a change. Instead he hung on 6 more years and the world decided Clemson was at best an 8-9 game winner with no championships and some down years.

We kept Tommy West too long. After we let him go he coached 10 more years and ended his career with a sub .500 record.

Larry Shyatt stayed too long

Purnell went to 3 straight NCAA Tournaments and left us.
Barnes went to 3 straight NCAA Tournaments and left us.

Being a coach is a better deal than being a player. Players get fired, cast aside or ride the pine in a skinny minute. Coaches have nice personalities and a lot of them who will one day be fired for being bad or mediocre at best often get to keep their jobs for quite awhile. Seems odd.

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The NCAA tournament is so much better when Clemson is


Feb 11, 2020, 2:24 PM

in it.

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Exactly. And to your point,


Feb 11, 2020, 9:58 PM [ in reply to Odd it's so hard to pull a coach out of the game. ]

Brad has had enough time. We are wasting seasons and years at this point.

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Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton


Feb 11, 2020, 1:35 PM

Hamilton has definitely turned FSU into very respectable program. Wish/hope BB can get Clemson there. I was hoping FSU would take care of the Dookies last night.

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Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton


Feb 11, 2020, 1:38 PM

Thanks. His history is something I have been wondering about.

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Class of ‘71. Went through “rat season” and glad I did.


I was surprised to see how long it took him to


Feb 11, 2020, 1:47 PM

be successful. I knew that he had been coaching a while, but assumed that he was like many coaches in that he started churning out winning seasons and postseason berths from the start. I was wrong!

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton


Feb 11, 2020, 1:42 PM

Hamilton was very much on the hot seat before taking them 4 years in a row. That bought a lot of goodwill. That goodwill got him through the next 4 years without an appearance. Whereupon he took them right back to 4 more straight tourneys counting this season. Brownell had his breakthrough year in '17-'18. All he had to do, with a veteran squad, was maintain that momentum and we aren't having this discussion. This year isn't in a vacuum.

Brad Brownell in 10 seasons has only reached 20 wins 4 times. Hamilton did it 6 times in his first 10 seasons and had two 19 wins seasons.

Brad Brownell average RPI first 10 years: 97th
Leonard Hamilton average RPI first 10 years: 58th

number of season below 100 RPI: Hamilton 2 (1st and 3rd years) Brownell 5 (including this season)

In the four years before Hamilton took over FSU was 52-72, a .420 winning percentage with zero NCAA tourney appearances.

In the four years before Brownell took over Clemson was 93-41, a .700 winning percentage with 3 consecutive NCAA appearances.

I'm not sure how you thought this was gonna make your case but it doesn't. Any notion that Brownell is suddenly going to produce Hamilton numbers is magical thinking.

it also thoroughly undermines your arguments about facilities, fan and admin support since FSU is notoriously thrifty outside of football.

Message was edited by: viztiz®

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Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


You aren't a detail person, are you?


Feb 11, 2020, 1:53 PM

The point of the post wasn't to compare him to Brownell, or make a case for Brownell. In fact, I specifically put a disclaimer at the bottom of my post, hoping that it would keep people from responding like you did.

The entire point is to show that Hamilton's success wasn't instant, and it wasn't sustained. It included a lot of ups and downs.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: You aren't a detail person, are you?


Feb 11, 2020, 3:03 PM

which coach should I have assumed “you can't necessarily conclude that a (his/her) first X number of years will necessarily continue at the same trend in the future (whether that record be good, bad, or in between)” was about? Stop playing stupid.

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Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


It wasn't about anyone else.


Feb 11, 2020, 4:11 PM

If I wanted to compare him to Brownell in my original post, I would've.

This isn't complicated.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: It wasn't about anyone else.


Feb 11, 2020, 4:18 PM

This line of argument is beneath you. It’s a Clemson message board. You’re Brownell’s social media pimp. The context is obvious. Even your scocks aren’t buying this.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


There is nothing to buy. I'm not selling anything.


Feb 11, 2020, 4:25 PM

I found Leonard Hamilton's tenure interesting and surprising. I thought others might as well, especially since FSU is a "football school" that is seeing success in basketball. In case you missed it, that's what we want to have at Clemson too.

This thread isn't a good look for you. You are making ridiculous assumptions, and drawing crazy conclusions as a result.

As I said before, if I wanted to make the original post about Brownell, I would've.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I think he pretty won the debate in a landslide right there.


Feb 11, 2020, 10:02 PM [ in reply to You aren't a detail person, are you? ]

Sometimes you just need to walk away.

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The fact that you view discussions here as debates


Feb 12, 2020, 10:53 AM

where winners and losers are declared is concerning.

I come here to post and exchange thoughts, opinions, and ideas. Why are you here?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton


Feb 11, 2020, 1:43 PM

Leonard Hamilton is actually a perfect example of how far of a coaching drop off there is between Purnell and Brownell as well as how far our program has slipped.

OP was 9-6 vs FSU (.600)
Brownell is 6-15 vs FSU (.286)

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FSU was only an NCAA Tournament team


Feb 11, 2020, 2:01 PM

for two of Oliver Purnell's seven seasons at Clemson. They have been an NCAA Tournament team 6 of Brownell's 10 seasons.

FSU is a far better program now than they were when Purnell was our coach.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


You left out an important stat...


Feb 11, 2020, 1:54 PM

Leonard Hamilton took over a program where the previous coach had a .427 winning percentage and has gone .610.

CBB took over program where the previous coach had a .611 winning percentage and has gone .571.

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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Exactly. Hamilton has done very well at FSU.


Feb 11, 2020, 2:09 PM

However, it has taken him a long time to get them to this point. He didn't make an NCAA Tournament until his 12th year as a head coach. In his four years at Oklahoma State, and his first 7 years at Miami, he didn't make one. It took him 7 years to make an NCAA Tournament at FSU.

Even still, he didn't consistently keep them at that level. After that first NCAA appearance at FSU, he made three more in the three years that followed, making it four in a row. Then, the following four years, he didn't make the NCAA Tournament at all.

It wasn't until three years ago that they really hit their stride. They've made the NCAA Tournament each of the last three years. They've advanced in all three, making the round of 32 once, Sweet 16 once, and Elite Eight once. They are poised for a high seed and another run this year.

He's done a great job, and it's interesting to see how he has gotten to this point.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I guess that’s one way of saying it ...


Feb 11, 2020, 2:24 PM

Another is Hamilton went 176-117 (.601) in his first 9 seasons at FSU where CBB went 169-127 (.571) in his first 9 seasons at Clemson.

Again, that’s after Hamilton took over a .427 program, and CBB took over a .610 program. You are cherry picking stats/accolades to try and support your argument. Hamilton has trended upward at FSU, and as you said, is continuing to do a great job.

And despite your posts, I still like Brownell, and think he should get another year.




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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


maybe the lesson in the case study is...


Feb 11, 2020, 2:49 PM

that Brownell will slowly become very successful after several years at his next school.

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I'm not cherry picking anything.


Feb 11, 2020, 4:19 PM [ in reply to I guess that’s one way of saying it ... ]

Again, the point of the original post is to show an example of a coach who has his program in a great position, but who had many ups and downs to get there. We (myself included) tend to look at coaches' tenures as good or bad, and assume that if they are a good coach, they steadily improve a program and keep it there. Leonard Hamilton is a great case study of how that isn't always true.

My intention wasn't to compare him to Brad. I only did so when nctigs brought it up. You can't accuse me of cherry-picking when I clearly laid out their coaching careers as fairly as possible: their first 17 years, since that's how long Brad has been coaching). I was taking a career-long view, not just the last 9 years.

If anything, you are the one cherry-picking, because you only seem willing to compare Hamilton at FSU versus Brad at Clemson. I'm not sure why, unless you want to try to prove that Hamilton is the better coach. I agree that he is a better coach, based on his success the last decade. But the point is that you wouldn't have predicted that based on how Hamilton's coaching career started.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


lol...


Feb 11, 2020, 4:37 PM

You outlined their coaching careers?

"-He was hired in 1986 by Oklahoma State. As their head coach, he went 56-63 (.471) overall in four years. His conference record was 21-35 (.375). No NCAA Tournament appearances. Two of those four seasons were losing seasons. His highest win total for a season was 17 (twice).
-In 1990, he was hired by Miami. As their head coach, he was 144-147 (.495) overall in 10 years. His conference record there was 73-87 (.456). He made the NCAA Tournament 3 of those 10 years. However, he didn't make his first NCAA Tournament until year 8 at Miami (his 12th year of coaching overall).
-In 2002, he was hired by Florida State. He is in his 18th year at FSU. During that time, he has made the NCAA Tournament 7 times. However, it took him 7 years to make his first NCAA Tournament at FSU."

And even though you mentioned his record at the other schools, you forgot to mention his record at FSU, oops. He's 373-220, by the way. You didn't forget the accolades that helped make your point though, that's called cherry picking.

And when I pointed out the wins you responded with...

"However, it has taken him a long time to get them to this point. He didn't make an NCAA Tournament until his 12th year as a head coach. In his four years at Oklahoma State, and his first 7 years at Miami, he didn't make one. It took him 7 years to make an NCAA Tournament at FSU.

Even still, he didn't consistently keep them at that level. After that first NCAA appearance at FSU, he made three more in the three years that followed, making it four in a row. Then, the following four years, he didn't make the NCAA Tournament at all.

It wasn't until three years ago that they really hit their stride. They've made the NCAA Tournament each of the last three years. They've advanced in all three, making the round of 32 once, Sweet 16 once, and Elite Eight once. They are poised for a high seed and another run this year.

He's done a great job, and it's interesting to see how he has gotten to this point."

Again, zero acknowledgement of coaching record.


Career long view? Let me guess, that helps your argument? Both coaches ended up where they are now based on their merits. We are talking about the coaches and their current schools. Neither is being graded on what they did at previous schools. Neither will be fired based on performance at previous schools. And of course I'm going to compare the two coaches at their current stops. Why wouldn't I? It's the best indicator seeing as they are contemporaries who both coach at traditional football schools in the same division of the same conference.

I'm bringing it up, not because I'm trying to prove either coach is better than the other, but to point out your argument is flawed, yet again. And by continuing to do this; make up facts, cherry pick stats, etc... you are actually hurting your case.


Message was edited by: Francis Marion®




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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


My argument isn’t flawed, because I wasn’t arguing for anything.


Feb 11, 2020, 8:54 PM

I was pointing out how long it took him to see success in the form of NCAA Tournaments. You yourself have stated that NCAA Tournaments are the measuring stick.

Obviously he has been successful recently at FSU. We all know that, so I didn’t feel the need to go into detail about his last 10 years because that wasn’t the point. The point was that although he’s successful now, it wasn’t a straight path to get there and it actually took him a while to make NCAA Tournaments (as a head coach, as well as at FSU).

You’re making this more complicated than it needs to be. There aren’t hidden meanings here. Have you been hanging around with viztiz lately?

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I stopped reading at “ You yourself have stated that NCAA...


Feb 11, 2020, 9:11 PM

Tournaments are the measuring stick.”

Please provide a link to where I said that. Ever. Yet another complete fabrication. That’s your problem, you make stuff up, constantly.


Message was edited by: Francis Marion®


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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


I apologize, I must’ve gotten you confused with GWPTiger.


Feb 11, 2020, 9:33 PM

You both have very similar posting styles.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I accept your apology.***


Feb 11, 2020, 9:37 PM



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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton


Feb 11, 2020, 1:55 PM

Interesting consideration. LH's crest in his 8th/9th season and then significant drop and second wave is interesting. I think that existed side-by-side with Jim Larranaga(sp?) arrival at Miami. Jim won the battle, LH won the war.

LH has been able to continually harvest and sustain the Fla basketball environment for nearly 30 years.

In addition, FSU has been, traditionally one of the *richer* athletics departments in the ACC. If there is a school that could potentially be both a Football and Basketball school, then FSU is the best candidate. Then again, looking at their future, basketball might be all they have left at this point. Just because you are rich one down does not mean much the next. What is FSU's basketball budget?

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Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton


Feb 11, 2020, 2:02 PM

So, do you think Hamilton sold his soul to the devil, or stumbled across a magic genie in a bottle?

I really have no idea how Hamilton made it as long as he did and was as bad as he was. Some of his teams were terrible for sure. His turnaround has been impressive. Hopefully Brownell starts a similar turnaround starting tomorrow!

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I wonder the same thing.


Feb 11, 2020, 2:13 PM

I started to question Hamilton's ethics a little when he hired Steve Smith.

I think he's a good coach, and I think longevity is underrated. There is something to be said for being in one place for a while, building recruiting relationships and having the administration behind you.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Come on Brad, you need to be game planning for Pitt***


Feb 11, 2020, 2:07 PM



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For the fun of it, I have a question...


Feb 11, 2020, 2:47 PM

what if I didn't want to run Hamilton off, but rather just simply criticized his performance?

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You'd still be lumped in with those who did want him gone...


Feb 11, 2020, 3:44 PM

by some posters.

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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


We will have Brad Brownell for 3 more years regardless.


Feb 11, 2020, 4:46 PM

No way he is going anywhere after this season based on the expectations coming in and the current recruiting class at hand.

Next year is a big time hot seat year and we know we get the best version of Brad Brownell those years, so expect another NCAA appearance.

Following next season then, his contract will be extended and buyout upped, ensuring another two years at least to 22-23. If the consistent pattern we see continues, we will disappoint in 21-22 in a "what just happened" sort of way following the NCAA berth, then show enough promise in 22-23 to make it interesting following a real decision being made, and a lot of folks such as yourself will chime in to keep the train-a-rolling.

I am really looking forward to next season, though. Should be a great ride.

Go Tigers.

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“Look guys, this is a Clemson board, I cherry picked stats,


Feb 11, 2020, 4:52 PM

and I buy cbbs used underwear off of the internet, but this is in no way a comparison of the two.”

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"Clemson has been historically better than Carolina. That's pretty obvious." - Classof09

"No one knew we were overhyped until the season started." - Classof09


Skinny Oprah


Feb 11, 2020, 7:10 PM



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Why do dogs always race to the door when the doorbell rings? It's almost never for them.


When can we expect the case studies on guys like


Feb 11, 2020, 5:35 PM

Billy Donovan, Scott Drew and Chris Beard?

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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


You’ve mentioned them several times lately, so feel free to do a case study whenever you’re ready.***


Feb 11, 2020, 8:56 PM



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Link to where I’ve brought up Scott Drew and Chris


Feb 12, 2020, 12:13 AM

Beard several times lately? Or even once for that matter outside of this thread? TIA


Message was edited by: GWPTiger®


2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


Karen making things up again?***


Feb 12, 2020, 12:31 AM



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"Clemson has been historically better than Carolina. That's pretty obvious." - Classof09

"No one knew we were overhyped until the season started." - Classof09


Probably just a simple case of mistaken identity...


Feb 12, 2020, 6:36 AM [ in reply to Link to where I’ve brought up Scott Drew and Chris ]

again.




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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


this poast is borderline


Feb 11, 2020, 6:26 PM

moronic...
and absolutely delusional at every level.

any fan that thinks the current coaching staff is the proper direction for this program is no fan

stick to “yay we won” or “man that loss stinks.” all the other is simply garbage

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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


It wasn’t a comparison.


Feb 11, 2020, 6:30 PM

Just a random post about a coach at FSU that a lot of people were asking about but that has nothing to do with the situation at Clemson or our current staff why can’t you just be happy for our team.

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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


lol***


Feb 11, 2020, 10:05 PM



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Re: It wasn’t a comparison.


Feb 11, 2020, 10:28 PM [ in reply to It wasn’t a comparison. ]

i’m wearing orange underpants -

is that not enough??

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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


As long as you aren't wearing orange overalls


Feb 12, 2020, 11:02 AM

to a game, we're good. ;)

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I hope some of you didn’t go to Clemson.


Feb 11, 2020, 9:00 PM [ in reply to this poast is borderline ]

Did you read my original post? If so, your reading comprehension isn’t good.

My original post wasn’t about Brownell. If it were, I would've said so. I even posted a disclaimer so there wouldn’t be any confusion from people like you.

Back to the topic at hand. Do you have any thoughts on Hamilton’s coaching career and how unlikely it seemed his first 15 years that he would be as successful as he has been? If not, and you simply want to argue, feel free to keep scrolling.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: I hope some of you didn’t go to Clemson.


Feb 11, 2020, 10:26 PM

great coach great program

there’s my thoughts

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I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


How many years has Brownell been a head coach?***


Feb 12, 2020, 7:16 AM [ in reply to I hope some of you didn’t go to Clemson. ]



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10 years


Feb 11, 2020, 9:43 PM

I'm sorry but comparing Hamilton's accomplishments to Brad's only serves to make Brad's 10 years even worse. There is no comparison. That was silly. Another strong effort, but it just doesn't compute.

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Again, it wasn't a comparison.


Feb 12, 2020, 11:00 AM

This thread was about Leonard Hamilton, period. I was not comparing him to Brad, because their careers aren't really comparable. Brad started out much better, but Hamilton's career over the last 10 years or so is far superior to Brad's.

The only way to truly compare their entire tenures would be to wait until Hamilton retires, and hope that Brad coaches as long as Hamilton did. Comparing a similar number of seasons coached would make things easier.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton


Feb 11, 2020, 10:16 PM

Lol I don’t agree with anything you say most of the time and usually just don’t feel like having the conversation about a coach that should have and would have been gone 5 years ago at ANY other place that cares about basketball and their fans, but I will completely admit man I respect you and your loyalty and defense of BB... you really go full force so much respect man! Go Tigers !

My disclaimer is I’m a die hard clemson fan like most and am sick of the mediocrity we have seen the last 10 years , but I hope next year is the turning point and if it is I would love nothing more than to come on here and admit I was completely wrong about BB and apologize to you for sure !

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This thread isn't about Brownell.***


Feb 12, 2020, 11:01 AM



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


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