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CU Guru [1868]
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Calling Judge Keller
Jun 6, 2022, 10:45 AM
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You told me that brad restructured his contract a few years back so assistants could get paid more . . . Because people (me included) were pointing out that Dabo gave up bonus money to pay assistants, this back and forth because some don’t like hearing brad complain about money . . . Not trying to rehash the whole debate . . . Just the point that brad did the same as dabo . . .
Article below is the only thing I could find. Says he kept the same salary, extended a year, and reduced the buyout. But the lower buyout was fully guaranteed without him having to get a new job . . . So kind of a wash there. This was coming off a long ncaat drought and a first round nit exit. I haven’t found anything about how this restructuring benefited assistants. Maybe i found the wrong deal. I don’t know.
If this is the restructuring you’re talking about, doesn’t seem like a good comparison. Dabo had bonus money coming to him following an acc title and disbursed it to assistants to boost the program . . . Brad failed to make the dance for 6 straight years, got an extension for the same salary, and reworked the terms of the buyout to be arguably more in his favor . . .
https://www.independentmail.com/story/sports/college/2017/04/20/clemson-extends-brownells-contract-alters-buyout/100712512/
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Calling Judge Keller
Jun 6, 2022, 10:54 AM
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He didn’t restructure to pay assistants more (the simplest evidence is that we didn’t pay assistants more) but since you’re actually calling him on his bs with facts you’ll probably be blocked soon.
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CU Guru [1868]
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Re: Calling Judge Keller
Jun 6, 2022, 11:03 AM
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Man, I don’t wanna get blocked . . . I love taking the other side of the brad arguments. I think i can convert my guy Judge to my point of view
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All-In [30820]
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your optimism is refreshing***
Jun 6, 2022, 11:34 AM
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CU Guru [1868]
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Re: your optimism is refreshing***
Jun 6, 2022, 11:44 AM
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Wouldn’t that be funny, though? What if this was the post that turned it all around? Imagine a world where JK wasn’t super high on brad
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All-In [30820]
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....
Jun 6, 2022, 11:47 AM
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110%er [5482]
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Re: Calling Judge Keller
Jun 6, 2022, 12:48 PM
[ in reply to Re: Calling Judge Keller ] |
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JK is like a defense attorney….throwing out every unsubstantiated fact possible to get his guy off the hook.
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Orange Blooded [4559]
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Re: Calling Judge Keller
Jun 6, 2022, 1:11 PM
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That’s a great analogy!
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All-TigerNet [10400]
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Re: Calling Judge Keller
Jun 6, 2022, 1:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: Calling Judge Keller ] |
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You won't get him to even see your point of view. He's not a fan of Coach Swinney and he's not a fan of the football teams success. Heck the only time he has liked a post of mine is when I criticized the reasoning behind cross country and track being brought back.
He's not a Clemson fan he just identifies as one. He's only a fan of Brownell.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Calling Judge Keller
Jun 6, 2022, 3:45 PM
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He’s claiming in this thread to have unpublicized inside knowledge of DRad and Brownell’s negotiations in 2017. That would make him someone who has no business posting on these boards and with significant personal exposure to Brownell’s success or failure - whichever side (AD / Coach) he is on. Personally I think he’s just full of crap though.
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All-In [32650]
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Yep - he says this very flippantly, all the time - and no
Jun 6, 2022, 10:56 AM
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one has called him on it asking for proof.
Asking for proof that shows Brownlee did something SIMILAR to Dabo saying - NO - don't give me the CASH I have coming, give it to my assistant coaches instead.
JK also very flippantly - and bold-faced lying - says there was very poor attendance at a very important basketball game a few years back - I think it was Virginia - after some other event on campus & he goes on and on about how "we" didn't show up - when EVERY indication online was that it was a complete sell-out and a packed house.
The guy has serious issues.
Judge Keller®
ThornhillVillageDweller®
He has me on ignore, so I don't know if he will get the page or not.
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CU Guru [1868]
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Orange Blooded [3625]
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Re: Calling Judge Keller
Jun 6, 2022, 12:24 PM
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So he given an extension after not making the tournament for 6 straight years? Typically, extensions are performance based.
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All-In [44044]
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It's pretty simple.
Jun 6, 2022, 2:04 PM
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Yes, Brad restructuring his contract to a lower buyout in spring 2017 was part of the negotiations with then-AD Dan Radakovich in exchange for more money to hire better assistants.
A lot was discussed in that meeting. We were coming off of a disappointing season, our sixth straight without an NCAA Tournament appearance. We were rumored to be in discussions with Will Wade to be our next coach. As we know, Wade ultimately took the job at LSU that spring.
It as also suspected that Radakovich was going to fire Brownell during their meeting that weekend in spring 2017. Not surprisingly, Radakovich and Brownell discussed a lot that day. Brad needed a contract extension for recruiting purposes, which he got. Brad also needed more money for assistants, which he got. In exchange, Brad agreed to a lower buyout, which Radakovich wanted.
The immediate effect of that is that Mike Winiecki was fired, and Antonio Reynolds-Dean was hired. We were also given additional support staff to help with recruiting, scouting, etc. All of this happened in the aftermath of that meeting during the spring-summer of 2017.
And guess what? We had one of our best basketball seasons ever at Clemson the following season in 2017-2018, making the Sweet 16. Here's hoping that we have another great season this year.
Hope this answers your question.
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All-TigerNet [11472]
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Re: It's pretty simple.
Jun 6, 2022, 2:12 PM
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Yes, Brad restructuring his contract to a lower buyout in spring 2017 was part of the negotiations with then-AD Dan Radakovich in exchange for more money to hire better assistants.
A lot was discussed in that meeting. We were coming off of a disappointing season, our sixth straight without an NCAA Tournament appearance. We were rumored to be in discussions with Will Wade to be our next coach. As we know, Wade ultimately took the job at LSU that spring.
It as also suspected that Radakovich was going to fire Brownell during their meeting that weekend in spring 2017. Not surprisingly, Radakovich and Brownell discussed a lot that day. Brad needed a contract extension for recruiting purposes, which he got. Brad also needed more money for assistants, which he got. In exchange, Brad agreed to a lower buyout, which Radakovich wanted.
The immediate effect of that is that Mike Winiecki was fired, and Antonio Reynolds-Dean was hired. We were also given additional support staff to help with recruiting, scouting, etc. All of this happened in the aftermath of that meeting during the spring-summer of 2017.
And guess what? We had one of our best basketball seasons ever at Clemson the following season in 2017-2018, making the Sweet 16. Here's hoping that we have another great season this year.
Hope this answers your question.
Also, had a very experienced backcourt coming back of Mitchell, Reed and DeVoe.
This season replacing three of the top 4 in positions of the PG, 2G, and Small Forward in Collins. And not adding sure fire equivelants at all three loses. Sorry, just don't see that happening unless 1 more big target coming from the portal.
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Heisman Winner [140468]
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It sounds like the loss of Antonio Reynolds-Dean…
Jun 6, 2022, 2:19 PM
[ in reply to It's pretty simple. ] |
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earlier this year was even worse than many thought, given the positive effect he had on this team. Let’s hope these new hires can fill those shoes. And if we lose CBB, which I hope we don’t, it seems our first call should be ARD.
Message was edited by: Francis Marion®
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Legend [16252]
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So Brad did not forego salary as you stated earlier,
Jun 6, 2022, 2:25 PM
[ in reply to It's pretty simple. ] |
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in trying to falsely equate his actions with Dabo, he only renegotiated his buyout down to make it easier for D-Rad to give him one more year instead of the axe. He freed up zero dollars for assistants or any other program needs in the process. And wouldn't you know it - Voila' - like clockwork - the Brad turned in his best effort in his 12 years here when facing that obvious do or die season ahead.
Again, I'm expecting good things from our team this year due to the very same situation. Brad is clearly at his best when his back is against the wall, though I am concerned about the 2-year guarantee deals with the assistants mucking up that motivation.
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All-In [44044]
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I know it's really hard for you to be objective about this.
Jun 6, 2022, 2:34 PM
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So I'll review for you:
1. Brownell critics often point to how Brad never sacrificed his own finances like Dabo did in order to get more money for assistants.
2. I've stated multiple times that Brad did sacrifice money in exchange for increases in assistant coach budget.
3. The Dabo Fan Club didn't want to accept this as truth, so I got "called out" on TNet.
4. I explained in detail exactly what happened, which is that Brad restructured his contract in exchange for more money for assistants.
Unfortunately, those of you who are head over heels in in your admiration for Dabo and/or have an axe to grind with Brownell will not accept any of this. Or, you'll try to contrast the two situations by stating that Dabo gave up bonus money while Brad "merely" decreased his buyout.
For the record, I never equated the two situations. They aren't the same, and I never said they were. What I did say, unapologetically and without any sort of confusion whatsoever, is that Brad has made financial sacrifices in order to try to get better assistants.
If you and others want to make Brad sound greedy, whether it furthers your criticism of him or your hero worship of Dabo, go right ahead - just know that you're wrong.
From where I sit, I see two coaches who both love Clemson and have made sacrifices for Clemson (both in many ways, not just financially), and who represent Clemson well. The fact that many of you are so eager to criticize Brownell is sad, but at this point, predictable.
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Legend [16252]
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That was a lot of words there, ma'am, to try and outrun
Jun 6, 2022, 2:57 PM
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your statements that Brad made similar sacrifices in pay for assistants when it has never happened. It's okay. That's not what makes Brad a not so great coach - sacrificing pay to leverage better support behind him as Dabo did, and growing the program as a result.
I know you can't stand the success that other programs experience here as they all combine to show how pitiful basketball has been under Brad's watch. You've been pretty clear on that with the way you continue to throw shade on our programs, their leaders, fans, and traditions. That's what I don't get about you, unless one considers that you aren't a Clemson person, that you never attended Clemson as a student, and that somehow your affiliation with the university is via Brad Brownell in some fashion. Lots of Clemson fans and folks weren't students either, some of our best fans and supporters, but the animosity you possess for so much of what and who Clemson is, it doesn't add up.
Go Tigers.
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All-In [44044]
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Just admit it, you aren't interested in the truth.
Jun 6, 2022, 3:54 PM
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I don't recall ever saying that Brad's sacrifices were equivalent or comparable to Dabo's. Rather, what I do recall saying - consistently - is that Brad has restructured his contract to have more money available for assistant coaches.
Do you know why I have said this? Because plenty of people here - including you - portray Brad as someone who isn't devoted enough to the program to make sacrifices in order to better it. I repeatedly read posts here stating that Brad shouldn't complain about money for the program, because Dabo sacrificed money and Brad should too.
Well, Brad has. Period.
In addition to ignoring the fact that Brad did indeed restructure his contract with the agreement that Clemson's administration would increase the budget for assistants, the same people applauding Dabo for using part of his bonus are forgetting a couple of things:
1. When Dabo graciously offered to apply some of his bonus toward assistant salaries in 2012, he also got a raise in his base salary. So he still ended up making more money from his base salary as well as the portion of his bonus he kept. In other words, Dabo still came out ahead, and he didn't make nearly the sacrifice many here like to imagine/portray.
2. Dabo was already given a significant budget prior to this for assistant coaches, including huge contracts for Chad Morris and Brent Venables. He wasn't trying to get his assistant coaches paid a fair amount, which is something Brad was trying to do.
Contrary to what you and others here continue to falsely state, I don't have a problem with success of our other athletic programs. In fact, I readily applaud and enjoy those successes. I'm very proud of our success in football and every other sport. I grew up in a Clemson family, am a Clemson graduate, and routinely post about other sports here besides basketball.
I love Clemson, but Clemson isn't perfect. I'm allowed to say something negative about Clemson or any Clemson sports without being portrayed as someone who is "bothered" by athletic success, traditions, etc. Stop attacking me personally or questioning my love for Clemson or my devotion as a fan just because you don't like what I have to say.
You seem to dislike me, and aren't really interested in real discussion with me, so why continue to engage with me and my posts?
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Legend [16252]
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When you lay off throwing shade at our other programs,
Jun 6, 2022, 4:25 PM
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fans, and traditions, in order to bolster your boy, I will gladly disengage. I'm not talking simple criticisms. You know exactly what I am referring to. Trolls beget trolls.
I will take you at your word on your Clemson ties and will not go there again based on that. I am flabbergasted to learn that you are not Mrs. Brownell, though. I must admit. Gobsmacked almost.
Carry on.
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All-In [40100]
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All-In [44044]
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That's not true at all.
Jun 6, 2022, 3:59 PM
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I don't worship Brad, but I do think he's a really good coach who has a very tough job to do.
I'm able to laugh at jokes made about Brad here. How many of you can laugh at a joke about Dabo?
I'm also able to point out things Brad needs to do better. How many of you can do that when it comes to Dabo?
Anytime I make a comment about Dabo that even borders on negative or critical, I get downvoted and often receive angry comments as a result.
Just want to point that out to you.
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All-In [40100]
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I can take a Dabo joke. If that helps. Please tell one.
Jun 6, 2022, 4:29 PM
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I have a couple of good Brad jokes I haven’t written yet. One starts with, ok there were 6 players at a bar . . . I’m still working on the punchline.
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Letterman [291]
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All-In [44044]
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When have I ever stated that Brownell can't be criticized?***
Jun 6, 2022, 4:36 PM
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Letterman [291]
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Varsity [231]
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Re: I know it's really hard for you to be objective about this.
Jun 6, 2022, 4:26 PM
[ in reply to I know it's really hard for you to be objective about this. ] |
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It's debatable whether a lower buyout should be considered as sacrificing money, since you have to be fired during that contract for that to even come in to play (and that's just one reason, there's more I won't get into). And hasn't that contract been redone/extended since then, so the end result was Brownell gave up literally nothing? Also, since the only evidence that Brownell's lowered buyout was in order to pay more to assistants is coming from you, it's likely not true anyway.
Seems like Brownell agreed to a lower buyout to save his own job, and then, unrelated, after a really good season, everyone got a raise. Either way, it's not in the ballpark of what Dabo did, and you may say now that you weren't equating the two, but you were definitely trying to make it sound like they did something similar. And I see in another comment you're trying to diminish what Dabo did. Wow. (btw, Brownell makes more now than Dabo did at the time. There's inflation and all, but still)
Ftr, I'm in no way saying Brownell should at any point give up his own money to pay more to assistants. But it's a bad look when he talks about not being able to pay assistants and then brings up the football team, and then you trying to make it sound like Brownell made a similar sacrifice as Dabo
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All-In [44044]
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If you're going to make that argument, then I suppose we
Jun 6, 2022, 4:38 PM
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should say that Dabo didn't actually give up money either, since the money he donated out of part of his bonus also came at the same time he received a raise to his base salary.
See, we can argue semantics all day, but I prefer to applaud coaches who are devoted to the programs they lead, and both Dabo and Brad care a lot about their programs and represent Clemson well.
Predictably, your post seems to think it's okay to minimize what Brad did but not what Dabo did. Why the double standard?
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Legend [16902]
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Re: If you're going to make that argument, then I suppose we
Jun 6, 2022, 5:27 PM
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Except that, as usual, you’re being dishonest. Clemson had a contractual obligation to raise his salary to $2.2 million in 2012 after winning the ACC Title. Dabo voluntarily redirected $300,000 of that to assistants and accepted $1.9 million in salary. He did not, at that time, renegotiate anything. And notice that we’re talking about a salary less than Brownell earns and funds being diverted to assitant salaries that could would represent a significant percentage of the assistant budget. Try again sycophant.
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Freshman [-79]
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It's disgusting, isn't it?
Jun 6, 2022, 6:37 PM
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She's an outright liar. She's pathetic.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: It's disgusting, isn't it?
Jun 6, 2022, 6:55 PM
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It really is. I’m glad so many have caught on.
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110%er [5512]
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Re: I know it's really hard for you to be objective about this.
Jun 6, 2022, 4:34 PM
[ in reply to I know it's really hard for you to be objective about this. ] |
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Decreasing a buyout does not free up money UNLESS YOU FIRE THE COACH.
Otherwise, a buyout is a contingent liability. There is no cost savings, or spend, if the contingency is not met. Meaning, there is absolutely no financial impact to Clemson to change the buyout if the buyout is never paid.
Therefore, his decreased buyout could not possibly have increased the budget for assistant coach salaries.
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Orange Blooded [2112]
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Re: It's pretty simple.
Jun 6, 2022, 2:30 PM
[ in reply to It's pretty simple. ] |
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Mike Winiecki was making $181,250 when he was dismissed. Reynolds-Dean was hired at $190,000. He just have fought tooth and nail for that $9,000.
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All-In [44044]
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You do understand that since Brownell's salary
Jun 6, 2022, 2:39 PM
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stayed the same in 2017, Clemson's basketball budget wasn't increased that year, right? (and why would it be, when we have football to pay for!?!).
Increases for assistants happened the next year. If you don't think Reynolds-Dean was promised a raise in the very near future, especially if the program saw success, I don't know what to tell you.
(Hint: that happened, as he was bumped up to $257,000, and again since then, making $325,000 in 2021-2022).
We also hired Anthony Goins in 2019, again at an increase over what we had been paying assistants. He made $235,000.
Again, it was about an increased commitment to paying assistants more. Brad not only made sure this process started in 2017, but also in subsequent years when he received contract extensions.
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All-TigerNet [13238]
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My only question is...
Jun 6, 2022, 3:07 PM
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is Billy Donlon & Sean Dixon > Antonio Reynolds-Dean & Kareem Richardson.
Did we upgrade? If so, is it from a "B" to an "A", or "C" to a "B". Or, "C-" to a "C+"
In these 3 areas specifically, will we see a positive difference?
In game Coaching/adjustments
Recruiting
Player development
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All-In [44044]
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Billy Donlon was an outstanding hire.
Jun 6, 2022, 4:04 PM
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He's a very good coach and it was a huge coup to get him here as an assistant. He will contribute to coaching, game planning, and recruiting.
I like Sean Dixon a lot, and think he will bring some good things to the table. I especially like the fact that he knows the southeast well in terms of recruiting.
I believe that Donlon + Dixon is an upgrade over Reynolds-Dean + Richardson.
The question is, how quickly should we expect to see results? Those guys can certainly make a difference now in terms of the players we have now, but the ultimate test will be in a few years after those guys have had a couple of recruiting cycles to hopefully improve the caliber of recruits we have.
I've often said that Brad's biggest deficiency is in recruiting. I don't think he's a bad recruiter, but he isn't a great one. It's important for every head coach to have great recruiters on staff, and that's especially true for Brad.
People who now expect us to win 25 games a year and play in Final Fours starting next year, just because we are finally starting to support the program fairly well, are being unrealistic. I do think we will see a better team on the court next season, but it's unfair to expect immediate success from the two new hires.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Billy Donlon was an outstanding hire.
Jun 6, 2022, 5:29 PM
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And the equivocation officially begins. 13 years won’t be enough. He needs at least 15 now that he has “his guys”.
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Orange Blooded [2112]
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Re: You do understand that since Brownell's salary
Jun 6, 2022, 3:33 PM
[ in reply to You do understand that since Brownell's salary ] |
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1 good year out of 7 shouldn't get anyone a raise. Brad's teams have consistently finished worse than their talent. His last 5 recruiting classes have all been top 50. His average RPI finish at Clemson is around 100 yet recruiting classes average 55-60. He's an average coach getting average to below average results. On top of that what team has tried to hire him away from Clemson? If he was so well thought of but underpaid teams would be trying to hire him away.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: You do understand that since Brownell's salary
Jun 6, 2022, 3:40 PM
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Everyone, including Brownell, got raises for making the Sweet 16 because DRad disregarded the thorough mediocrity before that season. They were not given raises because of some secret promise. JK is barely trying to put together a sensible story anymore, but he just can’t stop himself from the pro-Brownell propaganda.
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CU Guru [1868]
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Re: You do understand that since Brownell's salary
Jun 6, 2022, 4:20 PM
[ in reply to You do understand that since Brownell's salary ] |
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Much obliged for the earnest reply. I don’t mean to ruffle feathers, but I am interested in your perspective.
You’re right I’m head over heels for dabo. Always thought he was great and marvel at what he’s accomplished. I have a tough time with Brad, but I get that there are arguments for why he’s good for clemson. I just tend to disagree with them. I know you are the master of the pro brad argument, so thanks for heeding my call for your services on this page.
As far as this point about sacrificing for assistants, I appreciate the way you describe the negotiations between brad and d rad, but I kind of have to agree with viz’s comment a little further down. Of course everyone got raises after the sweet 16 year. So . . . how much bigger were those raises compared to what they would’ve been without the deal restructuring? Maybe a lot bigger. I don’t know. Not sure who would. And what did Brad give up? Doesn’t seem like much to me. His buyout was contingent upon finding a new job before, and the lesser buyout didn’t have that qualifier. Not like he was in line for a raise going into these negotiations. As you said, his head was on the chopping block. So I’d say . . . He gave up nothing and saved his own skin.
Football sucks up a lot of money. I get it. But so does brad. You say he’s sacrificed. Ok, he’s worked with Clemson a long time. That’s good. Props for that. But he’s benefited enormously from his time at Clemson. He ought to be singing the school’s praises, loving the administration and the fans, not talking about money to the press. He’s asking for people to pose this argument, the one where we all think of Dabo and say, hey Brad, how about you give a little more?
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CU Guru [1458]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 713
Joined: 1/10/16
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It sounds like you're saying ...
Jun 6, 2022, 3:03 PM
[ in reply to It's pretty simple. ] |
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... that the improvement for the season was due to "better assistants" ... I'll buy that.
Imagine if we also got a better Head Coach! Perhaps we wouldn't lose so many players due to transfers.
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All-In [44044]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32956
Joined: 2/22/03
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I think most of the improvement that year was due to
Jun 6, 2022, 4:07 PM
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the players we had signed in the several years prior, and their subsequent development in our program.
I think we would've had a really good year that year with the same coaches, but I'm sure the new assistants helped.
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Freshman [-79]
TigerPulse: 66%
Posts: 4600
Joined: 12/21/21
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Freshman [-79]
TigerPulse: 66%
Posts: 4600
Joined: 12/21/21
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It was hot guards, period. What happened every year
Jun 6, 2022, 4:08 PM
[ in reply to It's pretty simple. ] |
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before then (except for a very talented Purnell team winning a play-in game before losing), and then why didn't we capitalize on the one anomaly you claim was good coaching?
Your BS has zero credibility.
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Orange Blooded [2407]
TigerPulse: 72%
Posts: 4101
Joined: 4/12/10
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Re: It's pretty simple.
Jun 6, 2022, 6:42 PM
[ in reply to It's pretty simple. ] |
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Tell us Brad, I mean Judge, what really went on behind closed doors?
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