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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Why do democrats continue to say....
Feb 13, 2020, 12:42 PM
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That Trump was trying to manufacture dirt on Joe Biden? That's completely untrue and it is just a blatant lie.
Biden brought the dirt upon himself by admitting to a quid pro quo with Ukraine. He said, "if you don't fire the prosecutor investigating Burisma, they wouldn't get the billion dollars" in foreign aid.
Everyone in Biden's family made tons of money abroad when Biden was the point man for those countries?
Hunter made a million dollars in ukraine and his investment firm got over a billion from China.
His brother was named to the board of a construction company and that company conveniently got a contract to build houses in Iraq.
All the proof is there.
If you want to look at somebody "manufacturing dirt" look no further than the Russian collusion hoax.
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Oculus Spirit [83073]
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Oculus Spirit [93658]
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Re: Lulz:
Feb 13, 2020, 12:54 PM
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Oculus Spirit [83073]
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Just showing him that 100% Trump was trying to dig up
Feb 13, 2020, 1:05 PM
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dirt on Biden.
Is that an offense so great to be removed from office? Depends on who controls the Senate.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Where does Guliani say he was "digging up dirt"?
Feb 13, 2020, 1:11 PM
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I don't see that. It's a biased characterization of what he said. I see that he says he was investigating. Huge difference.
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Oculus Spirit [83073]
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Uh, okay. Don’t agree. Maybe he was investigating to
Feb 13, 2020, 1:48 PM
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try and find out all the good deeds the Biden’s did in the Ukraine.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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We will never know what was going on in Trump's head
Feb 13, 2020, 2:26 PM
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or all of the motivating factors. The fact is, the president would have been totally justified in investigating that situation, and enlisting the help of any available intelligence sources. It would be the burden of accusers to prove otherwise, and to this point, nobody has done so. Yet, since day one, this has been reported as Trump doing this entirely to "dig up dirt" in order to damage a political rival. Few on either side are willing to admit to the uncertainty, and instead are running full speed ahead with whatever fits their preconceived biases.
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Oculus Spirit [83073]
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You’re for sure running full speed ahead.
Feb 13, 2020, 5:18 PM
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Don’t fall off the edge.
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Legend [18018]
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You do know that doesn't mean the same as exonerated, right?***
Feb 13, 2020, 3:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: Lulz: ] |
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Oculus Spirit [93658]
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Trials don't exonerate defendants.
Feb 14, 2020, 3:40 AM
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THey only find guilty or not guilty. Not guilty is an acquittal. Innocent until proven guilty. It's a simple concept called the reflexive property of mathematics.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Lulz:
Feb 13, 2020, 1:12 PM
[ in reply to Lulz: ] |
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lulz.. hehehe..
Read my post again and then maybe you won't come up with such a stupid response.
Nobody is saying that Trump didn't ask for Ukraine to investigate the Biden's. It is in the call manuscript that Trump released. haha.
The point is that a lot of democrats are saying that Trump is making it up. That is not true. If he was manufacturing dirt, then he probably should have been removed from office.
Biden was just on the view and the red headed women continued so say that Trump was making it up. It's also on CNN every day.
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Oculus Spirit [83073]
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Give me some factual dirt on Biden. I’ll give it a
Feb 13, 2020, 1:50 PM
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whirl and let you know if I think it’s factual.
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Oculus Spirit [93658]
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Biden was in charge of US relations with Ukraine.
Feb 14, 2020, 3:46 AM
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Burisma is a Ukrainian energy company. Hunter is Joe's son. Hunter got a job with Burisma. Hunter had no experience or expertise in the field of energy. Burisma paid Hunter salaries ranging between 50K and 88K.mo. Trump wanted to know why Burisma paid so much for someone who by all appearances contributed nothing to benefit company.
Any reasonable person would wonder why. 'Just the fax, mam, nothing but the fax.'
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Oculus Spirit [93658]
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I believe Trump wanted to put Biden in the spotlight...
Feb 13, 2020, 12:51 PM
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Biden is his only real threat in 2020. I believe Biden is dirty and Trump's efforts to see that Biden/Ukraine and Burisma were investigated were legitimate concerns for the chief law enforcement officer of the US.
I also believe that congressional dems knew that an investigation was proper and already in the works. I also believe dem efforts to impeach Trump made any investigation nothing more than academic due to Biden's name being front and center in the news for month after month.
It's all just politics and Trump is either luckier than a dog with...or he's a 'very stable genius.' Either way he came out on top.
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CU Medallion [56062]
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The chief LEO in the US is the Attorney General.***
Feb 13, 2020, 1:00 PM
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Standout [347]
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Haven’t heard anyone say Trump was trying to manufacture for
Feb 13, 2020, 12:54 PM
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(make stuff up). I’ve heard people say he was trying to dig up dirt on a political opponent. Which he definitely was. Whether or not there was anything illegal Biden did is another debate, but Trump definitely was trying to find something compromising about a political opponent.
However, to have removed Trump from office, Dems would have had to prove Trump was acting purely for personal political gain, and not “doing the right thing” per se by investigating possible corruption. Proving that motivation is/was pretty much impossible unless you have tapes, so he rightfully was acquitted.
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Standout [347]
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Manufacture dirt*** autocorrect***
Feb 13, 2020, 12:55 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93658]
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Does the president not have the right to investigate
Feb 13, 2020, 1:16 PM
[ in reply to Haven’t heard anyone say Trump was trying to manufacture for ] |
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potential corruption between a former VP/future candidate and a corrupt foreign government? It would seem totally acceptable to enlist any and all intelligence sources in the course of such an investigation.
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CU Medallion [56062]
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The President is not an investigator.
Feb 13, 2020, 1:27 PM
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And it would be unseemly for the President to order an investigation of his likely political rival. But that said, yeah, I'd imagine he does have the authority to instruct our law enforcement apparatus to begin an investigation. Funny thing is he didn't do that! He was blackmailing Ukraine to investigate Biden. Fishy, no?
And you gotta wonder, if it's all on the up and up, why did the White House stonewall congressional subpoenas?
And one last question: If Biden's crimes were committed prior to Trump taking office, why did an investigation only become a priority once Biden announced his presidential campaign?
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Oculus Spirit [93658]
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He wasn't charged with blackmail for a reason.
Feb 13, 2020, 1:38 PM
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The White House responded to the subpoenas and explained in the letter than the subpoenas weren't legally issued by the house of reps because the HOR had not given the committee which issued the subpoenas the authority to do so.
That issue was set to rest by a judge in court when house members sued Trump for his tax returns. The judge said those dems had no standing to sue on behalf of congress. Don't go picking at my misuse of the exact language, you know exactly what I'm talking about.
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CU Medallion [56062]
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He was charged with blackmail.
Feb 13, 2020, 1:53 PM
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The quid pro quo was spelled out in the abuse of power charge. You can call it extortion or blackmail or abuse of power or quid pro quo, it's all the same thing.
Usually innocent people don't refuse to cooperate with an investigation. If what they did was legit, they're more than welcome to make that evidence public. The White House is suspiciously secretive for people with nothing to hide.
As far as the courts are concerned, my understanding is there were a couple cases in different stages of process and appeal. There was no conclusive answer as to whether or not Congress had the authority to issue subpoenas.
So why did the Trump admin wait over two years before trying to force Ukraine to investigate Biden's crime from 2016? And what's happening with that now? Surely there's some sort of criminal investigation, right?
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CU Medallion [58411]
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"Usually innocent people don't refuse to cooperate with an
Feb 13, 2020, 2:38 PM
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investigation". That's not true. Who cooperates any more than they have to with an ivestigation that is out to nail you? We all have the right NOT to cooperate, and doing so cannot be assumed to be an indication of guilt. Any attorney would advise an innocent client not to talk in such situations, especially if they knew the accusers couldn't win the case with the evidence they had. Remember, the accusers here had a very transparent agenda with regards to the president, that extended far beyond this particular case.
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CU Medallion [56062]
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If you're being investigated and you have exculpatory
Feb 13, 2020, 2:51 PM
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evidence, I recommend not keeping it to yourself. If you're investigated for a crime that took place last night at 9:00 and you have movie stubs and four witnesses who can vouch for your whereabouts, you tell the cops! You don't wait for them to arrest you, charge you, attend an arraignment, plead not guilty, make bail, go to trial and then be like, "Oh by the way, I have an alibi."
Anyway I'm really looking forward to Biden facing criminal charges. Any minute now....
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: If you're being investigated and you have exculpatory
Feb 13, 2020, 3:25 PM
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Would you continue to cooperate in bogus criminal investigations? They've been going on for 4 years.
Also how is he supposed to provide exculpatory evidence when there was no crime? There was no victim.
If you think otherwise, then who was the victim?
Zelensky said he did not feel pressured. Zelensky said that he didn't know aid was held up. The aid was delivered on time. They didn't start any new investigations into the Bidens.
Also throw in the fact that the whistleblower lied in his report. The whistleblower had communication with Adam Schiff prior to issuing the report. You know, the same Adam Schiff that has lied about trump for 4 years and colluded with "Russians" when trying to obtain the infamous fake pee pee tapes.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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No such exculpitory evidence exists when the accusation
Feb 13, 2020, 3:26 PM
[ in reply to If you're being investigated and you have exculpatory ] |
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is all about motive. Trump called for the investigation, but why? No ticket stub. Besides, the house wan't on a fact finding mission. They already had reached a conclusion, they were just rying to find something to help their case. Prez is not obligated or expected to participate in that.
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CU Medallion [56062]
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The White House could've released internal communications
Feb 13, 2020, 3:51 PM
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regarding the decision to withhold the aid to Ukraine. If there were conversations about corruption and concerns the money would be misused or whatever their BS story is, there would be documentation to back it up.
Can you imagine if he'd been convicted by the senate and the whole time he had proof of his innocence?
Of course the truth is there is no exculpatory evidence because Trump is guilty and he couldn't comply with the subpoenas without effectively confessing to abusing the power of his office for personal gain.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Trump was acquitted. The process worked.
Feb 13, 2020, 5:15 PM
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He is still your president. Get ready for four more years.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: The White House could've released internal communications
Feb 13, 2020, 6:26 PM
[ in reply to The White House could've released internal communications ] |
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regarding the decision to withhold the aid to Ukraine. If there were conversations about corruption and concerns the money would be misused or whatever their BS story is, there would be documentation to back it up.
Can you imagine if he'd been convicted by the senate and the whole time he had proof of his innocence?
Of course the truth is there is no exculpatory evidence because Trump is guilty and he couldn't comply with the subpoenas without effectively confessing to abusing the power of his office for personal gain.
Question. Is it not exculpatory that the supposed victim said he wasn’t pressured and wasn’t even aware that the aid was withheld?
What about the text message to sonland where trump said he wanted no quid pro quo.
Is it exculpatory that trump withheld aid to many countries and he specifically talked to Ukraine that it is unfair that other nato allies aren’t pitching in?
It seems like there is a lot of exculpatory information that was presented.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: The White House could've released internal communications
Feb 13, 2020, 6:27 PM
[ in reply to The White House could've released internal communications ] |
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regarding the decision to withhold the aid to Ukraine. If there were conversations about corruption and concerns the money would be misused or whatever their BS story is, there would be documentation to back it up.
Can you imagine if he'd been convicted by the senate and the whole time he had proof of his innocence?
Of course the truth is there is no exculpatory evidence because Trump is guilty and he couldn't comply with the subpoenas without effectively confessing to abusing the power of his office for personal gain.
Question. Is it not exculpatory that the supposed victim said he wasn’t pressured and wasn’t even aware that the aid was withheld?
What about the text message to sonland where trump said he wanted no quid pro quo.
Is it exculpatory that trump withheld aid to many countries and he specifically talked to Ukraine that it is unfair that other nato allies aren’t pitching in?
It seems like there is a lot of exculpatory information that was presented.
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Oculus Spirit [93658]
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We don't jail ex VPs.
Feb 13, 2020, 4:06 PM
[ in reply to If you're being investigated and you have exculpatory ] |
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That's chithole country type behavior. Anyone who sincerely wants Hillary or Joe to go to prison is wrong. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy saying it but I never really wanted to see Hillary put in jail. I said so a couple times when the rhetoric was on high.
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CU Medallion [56062]
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Then why did Trump want Biden investigated?
Feb 13, 2020, 4:11 PM
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I guess he just wanted to hurt Biden's presidential campaign.
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Oculus Spirit [93658]
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Oculus Spirit [93658]
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Congress has the authority.
Feb 14, 2020, 3:34 AM
[ in reply to He was charged with blackmail. ] |
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All congress needs to do is vote to empower a committee to issue them. They didn't.
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Oculus Spirit [83073]
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Legend [18018]
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Then why did he purposefully go around his intel agencies?
Feb 13, 2020, 2:55 PM
[ in reply to Does the president not have the right to investigate ] |
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Trump's own lackey in Barr said that he was surprised and angry to find out he was lumped in with Giuliani. Trump didn't go through the normal proper channels to have Biden investigated and purposefully used back channels to 'investigate' Biden. This wasn't foreign policy either as Fiona Hill testified that, "We have a robust interagency process that deals with Ukraine. ... It struck me yesterday when you put up on the screen Ambassador Sondland’s emails, and who was on these emails, and he said these are the people who need to know, that he was absolutely right. Because he was being involved in a domestic political errand. And we were being involved in national security [and] foreign policy. And those two things had just diverged.
These are Trump's own actions we are talking about. This isn't trying to figure out what was in his head, this is the reality of what his actions tell us.
What you are describing is true and would be legal for a President to do, but the reality is Trump did the exact opposite.
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Standout [347]
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This is where motivation comes in, which is #### near impossible
Feb 13, 2020, 4:13 PM
[ in reply to Does the president not have the right to investigate ] |
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to prove. If he held up the funding because he was investigating Biden (and possible corruption) so that he could find something compromising that would benefit him personally/politically, then that would illegal. But if he was genuinely investigating corruption because corruption is bad, and held up funding because he didn’t want to give it to corrupt people then that’s fine.
If he was holding up the money as a bargaining chip to get information that benefitted him personally, that’s not ok. If he was holding up the money because he was worried about giving it to a corrupt country, that’s fine. Like I said, it’s about motivation- and unless you have tapes or something proving his motivation he should have been acquitted, which obviously he was.
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CU Medallion [56062]
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Internal WH documents would establish intent.***
Feb 13, 2020, 4:16 PM
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CU Medallion [58411]
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CU Medallion [56062]
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You know what the real punchline is?
Feb 13, 2020, 1:18 PM
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Trump got impeached for playing dirty tricks against a guy who's not even going to get the Democratic nomination for president!
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: You know what the real punchline is?
Feb 13, 2020, 1:39 PM
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So now it's "dirty tricks" to investigate somebody when there is proof of impropriety. hmmmm.
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Heisman Winner [137863]
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I get you confused with that Clemson Rangers guy,
Feb 13, 2020, 1:59 PM
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you know, because rangers and mountaineers kinda do similar stuff.
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CU Guru [1596]
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You mean butt stuff right?***
Feb 13, 2020, 2:04 PM
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Oculus Spirit [83073]
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Well, I’ve heard stories about that Ranger school
Feb 13, 2020, 2:19 PM
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at Fort Benning.
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Oculus Spirit [93658]
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I'm still laughing at house dems setting Joe up by...
Feb 13, 2020, 1:41 PM
[ in reply to You know what the real punchline is? ] |
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ensuring his name was linked to Ukraine, Hunter and Ukraine and front center of every news broadcast and paper for six months.
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Oculus Spirit [83073]
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110%er [6101]
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Re: Why do democrats continue to say....
Feb 13, 2020, 1:42 PM
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They know it’s a lie. They use the same tactics everyday on cable TV:
Make the lie BIG.
Repeat the lie over and over until it’s accepted as truth.
Control of the narrative = power
The lie is even more believable when it’s repeated over and over through multiple sources.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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That's exactly what has happened.***
Feb 13, 2020, 2:40 PM
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Legend [18018]
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It's certainly why the Biden's quid pro quo argument
Feb 13, 2020, 3:10 PM
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keeps getting repeated, despite the reality, as evidenced once again in this thread.
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Legend [17283]
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US policy supported by several Republican senators and _
Feb 13, 2020, 1:52 PM
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Europeon governments was to remove the Ukrainian Prosecutor for NOT investigating corruption.
The Biden business dealings are suspect but likely not criminal. Unfortunately big business entities (pharmaceutical, oil, banking, defense, real estate etc. including foreign enterprises) try and likely succeed in buying political influence. Both Republican and Democratic politicians engage in these “corrupt” activities that are borderline legal. White collar crime is more difficult to understand and to prosecute.
Both sides like to scream “look over there” at how bad those guys are _ while doing the same thing. Meanwhile the interests of the American people and our government are compromised
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Oculus Spirit [93658]
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Imo, it's impossible to prove motive without an underlying..
Feb 13, 2020, 3:01 PM
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crime. Just as it was not provable that Trump was misusing his office it may be impossible to prove that Joe was selling access to US power and money by seating his son on Burisma's board. While Joe might stumble over his words I do not believe he is stupid, imo he knew he was tightly wrapped in a conflict of interest.
Whether or not everyone else in the world believe that Shokin should be fired does not bear on that fact. Imo, it's nothing but a distraction to justify wrong. I think his major donors feel the same way and that's why his funding is suffering.
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CU Medallion [56062]
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"Shokin was not aggressively pursuing investigations into
Feb 13, 2020, 3:15 PM
[ in reply to US policy supported by several Republican senators and _ ] |
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Mr. Zlochevsky or Burisma. But the oligarch’s allies say Mr. Shokin was using the threat of prosecution to try to solicit bribes from Mr. Zlochevsky and his team, and that left the oligarch’s team leery of dealing with the prosecutor."
Shokin, the prosecutor that Biden had fired, wasn't investigating Burisma. He used his position as a prosecutor to threaten Burisma with prosecution in order to exact bribes. Getting Shokin fired did not take heat off of Burisma. Republicans in this thread are either ignorant or lying.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/22/us/politics/biden-ukraine-trump.html
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All-In [38514]
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NY Times, LOL!!!
Feb 13, 2020, 3:31 PM
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What does Conservative Treehouse say about this?
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Oculus Spirit [93658]
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For the sake of exploring that concept...
Feb 13, 2020, 4:11 PM
[ in reply to "Shokin was not aggressively pursuing investigations into ] |
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I'll just ask if Joe was protecting Burisma's because his son was dragging in big bucks and Burisma was paying Hunter protection money? Anyway you shake it Burisma wasn't paying Hunter for his talent or experience in the energy sector and they weren't paying him without reason.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Why do democrats continue to say....
Feb 13, 2020, 3:38 PM
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blah, blah, blah, Trump, blah, blah Trump, blah, blah, blah Trump.
It's the same old argument over and over. You ignore the facts to suit your narrative.
You're for Trump, we get it.
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All-In [48078]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 49059
Joined: 5/16/04
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Re: Why do democrats continue to say....
Feb 14, 2020, 4:26 AM
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Umm....it's fact.
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