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Lot o points [155581]
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Random observation on the intersection of ethics and income
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Mar 20, 2023, 5:27 PM
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So I like to think of myself as a high integrity and ethics person. No cookie wanted or needed, it’s not the point and I think most of you feel and conduct yourselves similarly.
What’s interesting to me though, is that I can’t think of many times in my life where, in business, my personal code for myself doesn’t cost me money. Sure, I have a good business with a good reputation that has been earned, but just say after day, it’s one person after another who cuts corners, bails on contracts, screws customers and suppliers and do things that, while not illegal, are decidedly unethical. On top of that, more of these people than not that I observe (or worse, am impacted by) have some stellar standards of living.
I also noticed it when I was in the corporate world. In the companies I was in, I could hit Director or even VP levels on merit, but when it got to SVP or C levels, it was a knife fight and most of the people I saw winning had some high degrees of moral squishiness.
Just pondering out loud here I guess. Do most of you see the same? Have we devolved into a society where the ends more often than not justify the means, and integrity requires a financial hit to be maintained?
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Heisman Winner [119553]
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I have always placed my customers’ goals/needs and my
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Mar 20, 2023, 5:52 PM
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Employers’ on somewhat equal footing. The deals I’ve made over the years have always needed to make sense for both.
I think that view seems similar to yours. It has helped me to be successful and has given me opportunities with clients that my competitors wished they could gain…
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Heisman Winner [119553]
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I posted this several yrs ago as a humorous retort
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Mar 20, 2023, 6:00 PM
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"If you paid attention you would know that I work from No Office, that I am the Sales Enigma that all the aspiring younger sales guys want to become. In my field, I am renowned for capturing the uncapturable piece of business, for constantly frustrating the competition, I am the Man reputable accounts want servicing their businesses. Many colleagues at one time or another have called me Dad as a sign of respect."
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All-In [43519]
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Eh. Do the right things by others
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Mar 20, 2023, 5:57 PM
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And the right things happen for you. An on/off switch isn’t sustainable.
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Lot o points [155581]
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To be clear, I’m not considering changing to the dark side.
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Mar 20, 2023, 6:23 PM
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I’m just lamenting how it feels more and more often in the modern era, there seems to be a widening inverse proportionality between ethics and success. I think this is a changing norm from past traditions, where the business people who were fair and honest and treated people like they wanted to be treated were the most successful. Now it’s who can buy the most google reviews and scam Covid payroll protection the most.
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Hall of Famer [23946]
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Re: Random observation on the intersection of ethics and income
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Mar 20, 2023, 6:14 PM
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Integrity and decency doesn't always pay off in the short run, but it seems to in the long run. And, if you have to choose, you're better off with the integrity.
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110%er [9713]
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Heisman Winner [135611]
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I think (maybe hope) that a lot of that success
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Mar 20, 2023, 6:32 PM
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at the expense of ethics is less substantial that you might think. More show than substance, yeah they made it to the top by cutting throats but there will be someone not far behind with a bigger knife to take them out.
My first job out of Clemson was corporate sales rep for a small computer retailer. My corporate customers got 10% off the retail price and 15% on direct orders that didn’t go into inventory first. More than once I had a special order come in, call the customer, they couldn’t pick it up for a day or two and my boss would sell it at retail and tell me to call the original customer and say it was broken and we’ve ordered another one. After the 2nd time, I quit and became a substitute teacher until I got into grad school. It all worked out for me and their store closed a couple years later.
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All-In [49145]
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I bet they closed due to worser reasons than you mentioned.
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Mar 20, 2023, 8:40 PM
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slippery slope.
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Legend [17220]
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Can’t disagree. Glad to be retired but prior successes …
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Mar 20, 2023, 6:41 PM
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….were a continuum of competency to politics. Initially competency had to be demonstrated but as positions increased, politics played an increasingly greater role. And politics in business can often degenerate ethics and values, especially when individuals lack strong character. It’s rare when business leaders don’t have to make some compromises in personal values at certain junctures, good ones don’t reside in that mode.
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Lot o points [163008]
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Lots of situations where big money guys / gals get away with
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Mar 20, 2023, 6:44 PM
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poor behavior because they are the big producer, bring in the big clients, etc. Management has to fix this quickly or it becomes 'what you permit, you promote.' I saw it a lot with professional service businesses, law firms, docs, etc. where the big guy is an arsshole (Murdock is a great example) but hey, he is putting money in everyone's pocket.
That being said, the firm I was with, dealt with this many many times. It is going to happen, the company makes the decision what to do about it and that affects culture.
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Hall of Famer [23946]
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Re: Lots of situations where big money guys / gals get away with
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Mar 20, 2023, 8:02 PM
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I've had to deal with this quite a bit in my career. A bad actor making $100,000 per year is a lot easier to send packing than a bad actor who makes a few million.
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Orange Blooded [2692]
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William F Buckley and a few selected readings
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Mar 20, 2023, 7:16 PM
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A memorable observation that conservative iconoclast William F. Buckley Jr. borrowed from the Austrian ex-Communist Willi Schlamm: “The trouble with socialism is socialism. The trouble with capitalism is capitalists.”
What is it about capitalism that tempts so many of its participants to make such bad ethical choices?
Some of my favorite writers get into this subject quite thoroughly.
Liar’s Poker
Bonfire of the Vanities
The Great American Bubble Machine
The Monsanto Papers
You could fill entire libraries on this topic alone.
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Lot o points [155581]
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Gracias, and I am familiar with many of these, but
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Mar 20, 2023, 7:23 PM
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Will explore those with which I’m not familiar.
Indeed there have been a-holes and scoundrels who have always gotten ahead.
Don’t you feel though, that more and more, there used to be more of a (pre-spiritual) “reckoning” that happened to more of these people than not, and ultimately kept people like this in check? Seems like their house of cards always ended up burning and tumbling sooner or later for people like we are describing, but in the modern era, we just see people permanently living in really nice card houses.
It’s like what we expect as ethical consumers, partners, and employers has either dropped substantially, or our apathy on matters of ethics has greatly increased.
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Orange Blooded [2692]
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In general we are hyper-aware
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Mar 20, 2023, 8:39 PM
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which includes the sense that shady operators have proliferated, but also because they are flashing the trappings of their ill-gotten success more than ever. The current Kardashian culture seems to welcome and reward shameless displays of grandiosity everywhere you look, so combined with what I would call pandemic nihilism, a segment of society has blatantly stopped caring about these moral reckonings in general.
I also wonder how much of it is winding it’s way down from the top of the heap. So many shady politicos and business leaders out here now, the Epstein collective, it’s like there is a cohort where attitudes have adjusted in lieu of the big shots that are out here doing shady deals, they ask themselves why should I play by the rules?
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Oculus Spirit [97649]
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Our freedom and capitalism is only held in check by
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Mar 21, 2023, 7:46 AM
[ in reply to Gracias, and I am familiar with many of these, but ] |
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Our religion. Without a strong religious foundation, freedom and unrestrained capitalism will lead to evil and a collapse. Once the system is corrupted enough to reward unethical behavior, it's game over.
Kind of predictable really, if you read a lot of history books. The ethics and morality decline as the success of the state mitigates the need and importance of institutions like the church and family. Both are dying in the US as we chase dollars. Again a lot of history on this.
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CU Medallion [58367]
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I have observed a lot of dishonesty, deception, and a
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Mar 20, 2023, 8:56 PM
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general disregard of ethics and moral behavior at all levels of management, which got more egregious the higher up the ladder you went. There have been very few exceptions in my experience.
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CU Medallion [65975]
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We are regulated by the FDA and as such get audited
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Mar 20, 2023, 9:00 PM
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frequently, in the past compliance was superb, it's has shrunk to just a few people who follow the QMS requirements. It's frustrating af to see people take compliance shortcuts, the majority get away with it, because the regulators can only audit so much.
I guess I sleep good at night not stressing over it, but yeah, I could see this attitude causing us some issues
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All-In [26880]
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It's like a house without an inspection man...all you got to
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Mar 20, 2023, 10:01 PM
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go on is what you see on the outside. Those people are living a risk/reward lifestyle. There's a reason you don't see people who color within the lines implode in a spectacular ball of flames. And the high flyers know this. They may dull the stress with materialism, but the stress of living on the edge eventually takes a toll. When you put a value on the cost of that type of life, I'd say you come out ahead. Got a buddy in Atlanta who is a tax attorney. He's had clients with yachts, planes, etc. come in owing ungodly amounts of money because guess what -- all those lavish spoils were paid for by cutting corners. Catch them in that moment.
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110%er [7049]
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Re: It's like a house without an inspection man...all you got to
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Mar 21, 2023, 7:55 AM
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I dunno … I know actual law-breakers who’ve had lucrative long-term careers.
At risk of using generalities by including all of those lawbreakers as having the same psychological foundation as the law-breaker in question, these law-breaker corporate types have psychological foundations of career criminals.
They are emotionally accustomed to living on the edge, and take breaks from their criminal activities to access the environment, prepare for self-defense as they perceive scrutiny converging upon them, and in general give themselves an ‘emotional rest period’ before they launch into their next illegal endeavor.
Keep in mind that quickly done illegal activities can lead to extended periods of above-average corporate success.
Also keep in mind that the ‘mixed moralist’ higher-ups that also benefit from the illegal activity that ‘they have no reason to suspect had been illegal’ have no interest in looking for warts on their rain-makers.
Xxxxxxxx
This ‘mixed moralist’ facet of high level leadership is not limited to the private sector. There are many obvious cases of this behavior among politicians and the agencies that the politicians oversee.
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110%er [7049]
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Two examples
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Mar 20, 2023, 10:52 PM
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Never been an entrepreneur, so can’t comment as an insider on those businesses.
Had a previous short stint at a USA based, publicly traded company (big outfit) and long stint (still at it) with a very large EU based outfit. ADRs only as far as publicly traded shares for USA investors of the giant EU HQ’d outfit.
Never had direct involvement with CEOs or ‘continent level’ presidents. Limited interactions with ‘country level’ presidents, GMs, and selected SVPs. Frequent interaction with BL level GMs and Jr. level VPs.
Many different shades of gray as far as ethics among the BL level GMs and Jr. level VPs. Most of their ethical squishiness was motivated by contradictory objectives as ordered or set by KPIs (Key Performance Indicators).
When Sr. Mgmt. imposes business objectives which are not possible to achieve by fully ethical means. Sweet carrots and thorny sticks are utilized so that the Jr. level VPs and BL level GMs do their best to carry out those orders. To cover themselves ethically (and to impress upon the public that everything is on the up-&-up), various intra-company ‘commitment to ethics’ modules must be completed by all employees (including highest level executive mgrs).
Quite candidly, tactics which dubious ethics (and occasional outright illegal) are deployed by the lower level VPs and BL level GMs … which are usually assigned to staff level managers to execute, but for overtly illegal activities are carried out by the low level VPs and/or BL GMs.
(*). All of the really big EU based companies have very close relationships with their home country’s political leaders. I can’t prove it, but I suspect that ethically questionable practices at my employer get ignored by their govt ‘partners,’ or in the event that bad news gets out to the public, then the company + govt ‘massages’ the news to downplay the unethical &/or illegal event.
(*). As far as income (reward) for engaging in unethical behavior, the simple answer is YES.
(1). Companies with low tolerance for being in risky businesses (I.e., my current employer): Mgrs don’t make big money from purchases of discounted shares of company stock. The reward in this case is ongoing employment with healthy (non-stock) related bonuses.
(2). Companies with high tolerance for being in risky businesses (I.e., my former employer): Mgrs make possible big money from combination of stock options + the right to buy shares of company stock at discounted prices. Not surprisingly, ethics are stretched more, and employment longevity is (overall) shorter.
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Orange Blooded [2692]
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All-In [46768]
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I'm not in a private business, but I have had some
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Mar 21, 2023, 8:13 AM
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recent success and my moral compass is clean as a whistle.
In my line of work, the most frustrating part is the people who do the worse job end up with the higher paying jobs. It's maddening that when you're doing good, they want to keep you at your level but when you start royally screwing up they move you up the ladder so you're out of the way.
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All-TigerNet [13359]
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Yes I see it. It comes down to incentives.
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Mar 21, 2023, 8:23 AM
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There is one goal and one goal only with publicly traded companies… make money for the shareholder.
The more people in “ownership” the more singularly focused you become on this goal.
It’s psychology of the masses.
There is also very little accountability.
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110%er [7049]
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Both for-profit corporations & non-profits are dirty
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Mar 21, 2023, 10:29 AM
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This also happens with non-profits, from what three of my friends who work in that sector report (at least with respect to the large ones).
Many people get confused about non-profit organizations and the motivations of people who manage them.
Again, according to my non-profit employed friends, the top priority for the management of the non-profits is to maximize their overall compensation (salary + reimbursable ‘business expenses’) as they can while being employed in an organization that does not have the on-the-job pressures as those which are typical in private sector managerial jobs.
Most of us have heard about non-profits that politicians or their family members had founded which raise a lot of money, but pay out little to the charitable cause. The money that gets raised goes largely to the management of the non-profit, or is ‘donated’ to other organizations which in turn funnels the funds to politicians who purportedly support ‘the cause.’
The immorality and outright criminal behavior is rampant among both the for-profit corporations and non-profits.
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All-TigerNet [13359]
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Re: Both for-profit corporations & non-profits are dirty
Mar 21, 2023, 12:42 PM
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In my experience, the NFP organizations are the dirtiest of all. You have to do years of research to figure out where most of their money actually goes.
Anyone want to start one with me??
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110%er [6934]
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Let me put my Wendell Berry hat on for a minute and
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Mar 21, 2023, 9:43 AM
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suggest that the scale and scope of the modern economy makes it easier to cut corners and continue to get away with it. A large, nationwide economy with lots of huge corporations offers more opportunity to skirt a bad reputation, for longer.
Like you said: the good folks can do well for themselves but anonymity can let the bad actors win knife fights and get out of Dodge at an opportune time.
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Orange Blooded [4695]
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This is why I could never be in any kind of sales or
Mar 21, 2023, 10:34 AM
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customer service position.
The accounting world has a black and white code of conduct. I'm a historian and a planner, I sleep well at night knowing I'm not doing anything shady.
Your opinion on the stellar standards of living though, perhaps they conduct their lifestyle the same way as their businesses.
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Hall of Famer [21833]
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I'm in sales
Mar 21, 2023, 12:54 PM
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and I was going to post that I actually think my adherence to ethics and doing what is right is what differentiates me from the others.
That, and I'm smarter than them.
I'm also selling engineered systems, so it's not like I'm just knocking on doors.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Hall of Famer [21833]
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To answer your questions...yes
Mar 21, 2023, 12:56 PM
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see it all the time, and yes society is completely ######.
This is why I want to buy a business instead of move up in my current one.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Imo,
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Mar 21, 2023, 4:25 PM
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it's always been that way. I think we're just in a place with a clearer view now which is mostly due to maturity and experience.
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