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Oculus Spirit [81048]
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From the debate, I learned that some of them publicly
Aug 7, 2015, 9:06 AM
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stated that if their wife was having a complicated pregnancy, they'd rather see their wife die than abort the fetus. At least Donald calling a woman a "fat pig" was probably justified.
The Republicans don't stand a chance.
Changed for Tiggity
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All-In [31887]
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Really?...I'm pretty sure almost all of them...
Aug 7, 2015, 9:19 AM
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put an exception for mother's health. Walker is one of the few to my knowledge that doesn't.
Who else doesn't?
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Oculus Spirit [81048]
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Didn't Rubio double down on that as well?***
Aug 7, 2015, 9:23 AM
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All-In [31887]
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Doubled down?....Rubio has always held an exception...
Aug 7, 2015, 9:29 AM
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for mother's health to my knowledge. He co-sponsored a bill in the senate (unborn child protection act...or something like that) that carved out exceptions for mother's health.
I didn't see every second of the debate last, but I would be surprised if he changed his position on that.
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Oculus Spirit [81048]
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All-In [31887]
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that's talking about incest/rape....
Aug 7, 2015, 10:04 AM
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you were talking about health of the mother, right? I'm pretty sure that's not up for debate concerning Rubio, right?
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All-In [26968]
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What is "health"?
Aug 7, 2015, 10:07 AM
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Exception for when should might die? When she might end up disabled? When she might not be able to have more children? When she might not be able to shed the "baby weight"? When she might not be able to make yoga class the next day?
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All-In [31887]
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I have always understood it to mean when the birth of...
Aug 7, 2015, 10:12 AM
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the baby would put the mother's life in danger...meaning there is a strong possibility the mother would die if the baby is born. That's how it's been codified in most bills I've actually read (which has been a while mind you).
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Oculus Spirit [81048]
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All-In [31887]
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this was her question....
Aug 7, 2015, 10:20 AM
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"You favor a rape and incest exception to abortion bans," moderator Megyn Kelly said. "If you believe that life begins at conception, as you say you do, how do you justify ending a life just because it begins violently, through no fault of the baby?"
The issue of mother's health was not being discussed here. Right?
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Oculus Spirit [81048]
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Not the question during the debate
Aug 7, 2015, 10:25 AM
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It was during her discussion after the debate
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Oculus Spirit [97703]
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IU math....2 out of 10 = most.
Aug 7, 2015, 9:36 AM
[ in reply to Didn't Rubio double down on that as well?*** ] |
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Got it.
My view is if you get to a point where either the baby dies or the mother, it doesn't matter. I would say let the mother live and possibly have another child, or adopt a child. If either baby or mother are going to die, and one stands a better chance if the other dies, let them (or the family/doctors) make the choice. It's a horrible choice, but it's God's choice. He has chosen to terminate a life. It is going to happen. Let the person choose at that point based on medical advice.
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Oculus Spirit [81048]
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"it doesn't matter"?
Aug 7, 2015, 9:38 AM
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Thats an interesting way to look at it.
And you're right..2/10 isn't "most". I can change that if it bothers you.
But ask them individually, and they'll all say what they think their audience wants to hear.
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Oculus Spirit [81048]
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changed..for your comfort***
Aug 7, 2015, 9:39 AM
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Oculus Spirit [97703]
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Re: changed..for accuracy******
Aug 7, 2015, 9:41 AM
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Oculus Spirit [97703]
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When one of two lives will be lost because of
Aug 7, 2015, 10:09 AM
[ in reply to "it doesn't matter"? ] |
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God's choice, and not your own selfish choice, then I think you can chose which life to try and save. And you do that usually by the advice of the doctors. The fact that a life is being terminated is not a choice of either baby or mother. Choosing which life to save when the loss of a life is God's choice, is a different moral question than choosing yourself to end a life that would otherwise not end. In the later scenario, you are becoming the arbiter/initiator of a death that would otherwise not occur.
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All-In [34102]
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Re: When one of two lives will be lost because of
Aug 7, 2015, 10:14 AM
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I think you can chose which life to try and save.
Who is the "you" in that sentence? If it is possible to save one but not both, and the mother does not want to die, when is it acceptable to overrule her preference? And who gets to decide?
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Oculus Spirit [81048]
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Oculus Spirit [97703]
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It is a horrible decision. Would hate to have to make that
Aug 7, 2015, 10:30 AM
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call. The medical condition and doctors advice would probably be the deciding factor. But my point for the exception is one person will die. Once it gets to that point, you can choose. The death of a person has already been determined by God. You are not killing someone at that point but are trying to save a life.
There may be a 90% chance your wife will die and a 90% chance your baby can be saved. Or vice versa. It's a horrible situation, but it's not an immoral choice to have to make because THE DEATH of a person has already been chosen. This type of thing happens, and in some cases an abortion can save the mother's life where the child could not be carried to full term without killing the mother as well. But there will be a net ONE death, so you have to choose who to save.
You are not initiating a death, you are choosing one. Horrible, but a different scenario than unilaterally choosing the death of your baby.
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Oculus Spirit [81048]
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Hey man, you can rationalize that with all the religion
Aug 7, 2015, 10:34 AM
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you want.
You're on your own with that one.
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Oculus Spirit [97703]
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Choosing an abortion as a "right"
Aug 7, 2015, 10:44 AM
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because you don't want a screaming kid taking away from your career, or whatever....
You're on your own with that one.
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Oculus Spirit [81048]
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You aren't helping yourself with this.
Aug 7, 2015, 10:49 AM
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You keep writing, and I keep reading that you'd kill your wife and blame it on God.
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Oculus Spirit [97703]
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You read like you do math
Aug 7, 2015, 10:57 AM
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2 out of 10 is "most" and I want to kill my wife.
Got it.
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All-In [26968]
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In the same paragraph, you said "it's God's choice"
Aug 7, 2015, 9:45 AM
[ in reply to IU math....2 out of 10 = most. ] |
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And "let [people] choose". Which is it?
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Oculus Spirit [97703]
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The death is God's choice. The fact that a life will
Aug 7, 2015, 10:11 AM
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end has not been chosen by either of the parties. Then it becomes a choice of which life to save. Read my reply above for more insight.
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CU Medallion [56055]
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This is sorta like in the Dark Knight where the Joker makes
Aug 7, 2015, 10:35 AM
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Batman break his rule about not killing people. "Killing is making a choice. Choose one life or the other." It's interesting that what God and the Joker have in common is that they both enjoy forcing good people to make sadistic choices.
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CU Medallion [56055]
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Another way to say that is
Aug 7, 2015, 9:43 AM
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most of the Republican candidates think abortion is ok sometimes.
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All-In [26968]
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Better not be killing children
Aug 7, 2015, 9:47 AM
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unless you have a good reason, of course.
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Oculus Spirit [81048]
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All-In [31887]
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If you are against abortion because you believe it is....
Aug 7, 2015, 10:10 AM
[ in reply to Another way to say that is ] |
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the taking of a life....
How is it inconsistent to allow a doctor and moth to make a medical decision when the birth of the baby would cause the mother to die?
You believe both are lives worth valuing and then it becomes an equation (I realize that sounds cold, but I couldn't think of another good way to put it). At the end of that procedure, there will be 1 person alive and 1 person dead, either way. I just don't see the inconsistency.
Now, expanding out the rest of the points...I think a very general underlying point is that many folks against abortion or against it being used as a form of birth control. So you can fit in rape into that argument. Personally, I see both sides of that one and it's a tough one for me.
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All-In [31887]
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"moth" = "mother"***
Aug 7, 2015, 10:13 AM
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CU Medallion [56055]
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Be careful wading into utilitarian waters.
Aug 7, 2015, 10:24 AM
[ in reply to If you are against abortion because you believe it is.... ] |
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You might just end up being on the other side of this issue.
And I don't think anyone wants abortion being used as a form of birth control. Thankfully few women really do that. Perhaps we should have like a three strikes rule with abortion, although then you gotta wonder if it really makes sense to compel a person who's so clearly irresponsible to raise a child.
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Oculus Spirit [81048]
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I knew a girl in high school that did that.
Aug 7, 2015, 10:43 AM
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I think she had 3 abortions before she graduated.
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All-In [31887]
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All-In [34102]
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All-In [31887]
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Tough one, but I say the mother gets to make the call...
Aug 7, 2015, 11:26 AM
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once the doctor declares that situation.
I don't have any huge structured argument as to why...it just seems like the right thing to me.
Frankly, I have a hard time wrapping my head around having to make that decision myself.
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Hall of Famer [24737]
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Yep... +1.***
Aug 7, 2015, 11:39 AM
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All-In [34102]
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Re: Tough one, but I say the mother gets to make the call...
Aug 7, 2015, 11:46 AM
[ in reply to Tough one, but I say the mother gets to make the call... ] |
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I agree that the mother should make the call, but that's because I don't start with the premise that letting the unborn child die is as bad a choice as letting the mother die.
If you do start with that premise, it is unclear why one of the two individuals at stake should control the choice. It gets even less clear if you start throwing in situations where the odds are different for one of the individuals or the other.
It would be very interesting to see a pro-life analysis on that.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: If you are against abortion because you believe it is....
Aug 7, 2015, 10:43 AM
[ in reply to If you are against abortion because you believe it is.... ] |
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And this is why I think we should just leave the ultimate decision up to the mother. It's her body, her decision. Not yours, mine or the doctors. Ultimately I don't like abortion and ideally it would only be used in extreme circumstances but again, not my choice to make for them.
> Now, expanding out the rest of the points...I think a very general underlying point is that many folks against abortion or against it being used as a form of birth control. So you can fit in rape into that argument. Personally, I see both sides of that one and it's a tough one for me.
Totally agree and it is a tough tough issue.
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110%er [9107]
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What does this have to do with Microsoft Access?***
Aug 7, 2015, 10:24 AM
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Oculus Spirit [81048]
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Well, Access is analogous to a database abortion
Aug 7, 2015, 10:26 AM
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So theres that
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