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CU Medallion [73569]
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110%er [5641]
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Heisman Winner [111300]
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Legend [19882]
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Re: this is probably a more accurate take
Apr 9, 2022, 7:20 PM
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They should not have to opt out since they should not have been auto-enrolled, right?
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Heisman Winner [111300]
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I am not sure if this is cynicism, or some of you guys are just sick
Apr 9, 2022, 7:30 PM
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and how is that different from every other course? The point of this is to curtail bullying by normalizing gender dysphoria. But I hear some of you describing this as some form of indoctrination, and well, you would have to have a really negative view of humanity to believe public educators are openly engaging in this.
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Legend [19882]
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Re: I am not sure if this is cynicism, or some of you guys are just sick
Apr 9, 2022, 8:32 PM
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By your logic, public educators would have to have a really negative view of K-2nd grade baby children to believe they'll all become homophobic bullies if this indictrination is not forced on them without parental consent.
See how that works?
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Heisman Winner [111300]
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Re: I am not sure if this is cynicism, or some of you guys are just sick
Apr 9, 2022, 10:01 PM
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I would imagine the educators themselves have more firsthand knowledge of students being bullied and for what reasons, certainly much more so than you and I. But the idea here is to indoctrinate kids into not turning into bigoted arsehats like their parents and grandparents. Hopefully, in 20 years, stupid Karenesque threads like this will no longer exist.
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CU Medallion [59974]
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Re: I am not sure if this is cynicism, or some of you guys are just sick
Apr 9, 2022, 10:26 PM
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Leave it to Balm to defend Groomers. His new low.
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Hall of Famer [23946]
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: I am not sure if this is cynicism, or some of you guys are just sick
Apr 10, 2022, 8:57 PM
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I kind of noticed that. Pretty funny huh?
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All-In [40868]
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not funny, sad and pathetic, but typical***
Apr 10, 2022, 9:46 PM
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: not funny, sad and pathetic, but typical***
Apr 11, 2022, 10:07 AM
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True
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110%er [5641]
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Re: not funny, sad and pathetic, but typical***
Apr 11, 2022, 10:41 AM
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He must be spending more and more time in the chamber.
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Hall of Famer [20518]
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Re: not funny, sad and pathetic, but typical***
Apr 11, 2022, 11:07 AM
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I would really, really caution people against throwing out words they can't take back.
Unjustly accusing someone of "grooming someone for child sexual exploitation" is maybe one of the...vilest political lows I've seen anyone stoop to. And it leads nowhere good.
Some of you are headed down a dark path here.
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All-In [31361]
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Hall of Famer [20518]
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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CU Guru [1037]
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Re: I am not sure if this is cynicism, or some of you guys are just sick
Apr 11, 2022, 3:44 PM
[ in reply to I am not sure if this is cynicism, or some of you guys are just sick ] |
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If the point to stop bullying, then none of this should be mentioned at all. You simply teach kids to be kind to others; don't use violence, don't say mean things to others, if someone isn't bothering you, leave them alone, etc.
To the point about normalizing, that the entire problem. This will never be "normal," simply because this issue involves an extraordinary small percentage of the population. By definition it will never be normal, simply for mathematical reasons.
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All-TigerNet [10866]
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Democrats: "There's no elite ring of pedophiles that want to
Apr 11, 2022, 10:25 AM
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groom children and sell them as sex slaves! That's just crazy conspiracy talk!"
Pass a law that makes it illegal to groom kindergarteners...
Democrats: "Ahhhhh the hate! So much hate!! Why are you so hateful!!!!"
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All-TigerNet [11963]
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Are you equating discussions about gender identity
Apr 11, 2022, 11:44 AM
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to grooming?
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Hall of Famer [24672]
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Perhaps leave it to the kindergarten debate team...***
Apr 11, 2022, 11:49 AM
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CU Medallion [59974]
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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All-TigerNet [11963]
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you folks are reaching. over -reacting
Apr 11, 2022, 12:50 PM
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I mean, they aren't teaching them the birds and the bees. they are just saying, some kids may feel like their body doesn't match how they feel.
To me it's just acknowledging that some folks are different/have difference situations. Kind of like: some kids live with their mom and a dad, some parents only live with their mom, some live with 2 moms, or their grandparents...
it is just is. it's happening around them anyway. acknowledge in the context of everything else (what a family is, what and it's not a big deal. it's the parents making the lesson much more than it is, IMO.
but who knows what y'all think of me, so...
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All-TigerNet [11963]
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Well, without knowing how this specific lesson
Apr 11, 2022, 12:53 PM
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is worded and phrased, I will withdraw my comment.
I didn't see this line at first. I only saw the reference to girl parts and boy parts.
"The New Jersey Education lesson plans call for the graphic use of language (describing) certain body parts that we will not detail here; yet, they plan to use these words to teach your six and seven-year-olds."
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CU Guru [1037]
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Hall of Famer [20518]
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Re: Are you equating discussions about gender identity
Apr 11, 2022, 12:59 PM
[ in reply to Re: Are you equating discussions about gender identity ] |
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I would humbly suggest to you that intolerance for opposing opinions and lifestyles simply does not work in a society as variegenated and diverse as America.
We're the world's most diverse (though not "liberal") culture, a true melting pot that gets its constituent ingredients from literally everywhere on Planet Earth.
It's our biggest strength, and railing against it is worse than pointless. You're into tilting-at-windmills territory doing that.
It would seem more productive to teach your child your own values, rather than just pure blind hostility at anyone with opinions or lifestyles different from your own. Because unless you keep your child locked in a sensory deprivation tank their entire childhood - which makes them really weird, not to mention completely unequipped to deal with the real world - your child is going to be exposed to values and lifestyles and opinions that run counter to your own. From everyone.
Should teachers exercise judgment and common sense about it, and IMHO, talk little about sexuality beyond: "don't judge, don't be a jerk to others, everybody's got a right to live their own lives"? Absolutely. I certainly don't want a teacher trying to recruit my kid into Glee to go shake it to some swishy rendition of Boy Meets Boy, and I definitely don't want a teacher talking about sex to K-3's either.
But tolerance for others? That's the only way America works, as different as so many of us are. And it is not remotely the same as "grooming".
You throw that word in somebody's face in real life, you've probably made an enemy for life. It's incredibly destructive and accomplishes absolutely nothing beyond dividing us, and throwing words out into the world you can't take back.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Are you equating discussions about gender identity
Apr 11, 2022, 1:11 PM
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I'm responding to this statement below
"Should teachers exercise judgment and common sense about it, and IMHO, talk little about sexuality beyond: "don't judge, don't be a jerk to others, everybody's got a right to live their own lives"? Absolutely. I certainly don't want a teacher trying to recruit my kid into Glee to go shake it to some swishy rendition of Boy Meets Boy, and I definitely don't want a teacher talking about sex to K-3's either."
So if there are teachers doing this, do you think they should be reprimanded? Fired? Do you think there should be legislation passed to prevent teachers from doing these things?
Everybody agrees that you shouldn't judge or be a jerk to others. Do you really think that's what people are up in arms about?
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Hall of Famer [20518]
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Re: Are you equating discussions about gender identity
Apr 11, 2022, 1:27 PM
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I think we're not listening and sort of screaming past one another here. You constantly accuse me of being a "liberal" because I believe differently than you. I absolutely am not. I come from a conservative German family, I voted against the GOP in only two elections (1992 with Perot, not exactly a flaming liberal), and 2020 because I couldn't stomach Trump.
But this has nothing to do with Trump.
Liberalism, in its classic political definition, is just "the tolerance of opposing viewpoints and lifestyles." In a melting pot like America, illiberalism doesn't work because we're all just too different.
And that's the line, to me. A teacher who preaches tolerance is fine. Somebody going: "hey, straightness is so five minutes ago and square, come be LGBTQ like the cool kids all do", has crossed that line.
Liberals don't realize it, but they're often disdainful and more than a little contemptuous of straight, white, conservative Christian values...and for all they preach tolerance, they show little of their own for genuine salt-of-the-Earth types. I don't like it. If there's a quibble I've always had with the "mainstream media", especially the "media elite" types like NYT and WaPo, it's that they're massively out of sync with rural and even just conservative suburban America, and they aren't even trying.
But on the other hand, the far right seems to get more mainstream every day, and its intolerance towards not just various ethnic and identity groups isn't just growing and vociferous, it's increasingly being directed not just at the left but at the concept of "liberalism" itself. And that's a death mark for those who hold that poison close, over the long term. When you declare everyone who isn't like you your enemy, eventually everyone outside your narrow tribe becomes The Enemy. And the world really is out to get you at that point. Look no further than Russia right now for where that road leads.
So do I think a teacher that advocates, say, a gay lifestyle to kids in public school should be fired? Yes. It's inappropriate, IMHO. But simply talking about it isn't advocating either. And we need to be really clear where that line is.
Telling kids "gayness exists and is okay even if you yourself are not gay" is fine. But saying "straightness is so passe and boring and we're all really a little gay so jump in" is, IMHO, no better than saying "gay people are inherently evil and should all be rounded up and zapped loopy until they say they're straight."
Neither statement works in a culture that by necessity has to demonstrate tolerance for all.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Are you equating discussions about gender identity
Apr 11, 2022, 1:40 PM
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Ok so we agree. There is no room for classroom instruction or discussion on gender identity or sexual orientation.
You also agree with Ron desantis. Congrats.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Are you equating discussions about gender identity
Apr 11, 2022, 1:50 PM
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To be clear. Nothing in the bill or anything republicans are discussing prevents a teacher from stepping in, in this scenario.
Little Johnny negatively calls little Timmy gay because he is a misfit and different from others. The teacher jumped in and told Johnny that we shouldn't judge or make fun of others just because they are a little different.
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Hall of Famer [20518]
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Re: Are you equating discussions about gender identity
Apr 11, 2022, 1:52 PM
[ in reply to Re: Are you equating discussions about gender identity ] |
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Sort of. My problem is that DeSantis is turning the whole thing into a culture war issue and declaring war on Mickey Mouse and trying to turn Mickey into some sort of perv. That maybe isn't the most productive path either. Actually it's just more of the populist politics that are making us hate each other right now.
My understanding is DeSantis is saying students can't even be educated that homosexuality even exists...when it obviously does. I don't think students need even be educated on the alphabet soup that is "other orientations", when there's so many nowadays I don't even think the collective not-straight community can keep them all straight. (Like, what is "demisexual", and how does it differ from "gender binary" or "gender neutral", or merely "queer"...you know what? I give up. I do not care. And I don't feel schoolkids need to know either. They just need to know "everybody is not like mommy and daddy" and that's okay...and let them figure it out for themselves.)
So I concur that teachers shouldn't be taking advocacy stance for any lifestyle, be it conservative or swishy gay or anything in between, but merely saying: "hey, this gender identity thing exists and whatever flavor you are, it's fine, so don't be jerks to one another, 'kay?", isn't just "fine" but needs to be actually said out loud.
If it isn't the job of the schools to teach their students to get out of one another's faces and just live and let live, it's going to be kind of hard to teach them anything else, because the kids are going to be too durn busy fighting one another. Which they do way too much of anyhow. Kids can be vicious little bastages. Adults too, for that matter...which is why I made a fine living for awhile chucking those who did not play well with others out of the club I worked at.
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