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Varsity [243]
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Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field
Sep 18, 2022, 4:12 PM
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This has probably been discussed ad nauseam on here and I haven't read the boards in a couple of days. Anywa, here's what I'm seeing and wondering..
Defensively, it appears we re playing alot...like a whole lot..of cover 3, cover 2, and zone blitz. There is man thrown in, but it's usually with one high safety. If not two.
We had problems in the past with not being set on D at the snap. That certainly ain't the problem now, but its come at a cost. Venables would use movement and, more importantly, alot of bodies on the line of scrimmage frequently. And whether blitzing or if it was to fake.a blitz and fallback at the snap, it would create havoc, force the issue with the opposing QB, and cause quick decisions and hopefully mistakes. Yes, the occasional chunk play was given up, but TFLs and sacks would almost always outweigh any negatives. The stats from past years back this up.
So my question is am I seeing this correctly? Or has the playcalling changed so drastically and we've gone from a "press the issue and cause havoc" defense to a "keep it all in front of us" defense that doesn't take the risks into once did? Or am I seeing it in this way because the personal dictates this (which I find hard to believe) or have we remained vanilla here early almost to a fault?
I hope this made sense. I just feel like the playcalling on D has changed dramatically and I'm ot sure it's for the better. Maybe Bret's playcalling ability was way more crucial than I thought....or maybe is a entire philosophy change. Or maybe I'm way off base.
Thanks for any education on all this.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field
Sep 18, 2022, 4:16 PM
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You nailed what it is, it’s that simplification Wes talked about. Big noon kickoff did a segment about how Brent forces “chaos” and they even talked to all the former players on the set and all agreed they wanted to part of chaos vs vanilla.
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Rock Defender [53]
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No part
Sep 18, 2022, 4:17 PM
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It takes away that suffocating fear factor our defenses had under Venables, I miss that.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field
Sep 18, 2022, 4:18 PM
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I see what you’re talking about and really not sure. It’s the kind of the thing we won’t really be able to autopsy until the end of the season. Are we playing down to our opponents? Is the play calling deliberately less aggressive? Are we keeping things in front of us because of weakness in the secondary?
But I do want to point out that this is constructive criticism and worthy of discussion. It’s not the “derp, we’ll never win a natty like this” or “fire the coordinators we’re a 5 loss team now” bs that is flooding the board. TU for you.
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Varsity [243]
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Re: Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field
Sep 18, 2022, 4:42 PM
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Thanks. I appreciate you saying that. The game of football is so unique. I love to study the details because the answers are all there to why you're seeing what we are seeing. I've always said football is like chess, just using real poeple in place of game pieces with the intangible of heart sprinkled in.
And you're right, the season will bear out what exact the answers are and whether or not it was a positive or negative.
With the small sample size only, I hope we haven't seen the plan going forward. I think taking out the "hell raising" component is a bad plan. No, none of us like seeing the opposing RB go for 45 off tackle...or the poorly single covered TE catching one down the seam for 58 down to our 5 yard line. But man....all those TFLs....all those sacks...which created so many 2nd and 3rd and very longs. We were always near the top of the country in these categories. Which gave us more opportu......wait...
Unless the coaching staff realizes the ball control nature of our O this year and feel that keeping offensive possessions low on both sides is the best plan of attack....
Well ####...now I don't know what to think. #### game.....lmao
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Legend [19665]
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Was BV stunting and blitzing all the time against
Sep 18, 2022, 6:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field ] |
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Furman and La Tech? On defense, as usual, we're playing a ton of people. Waves of people. Guys who need experience in base alignments and reads. They're getting that. We didn't have that luxury against Georgia to open up last year or even against Tech where the D had to win the game. We blitzed and stunted plenty in the bowl game last year under Goodwin.
Let's see what happens the next two weeks when the starters play more and the competition increases. For all the moaning about the defense yesterday they barely gave up 300 yards, and much of that was late against reserves getting that needed experience. Not to mention down 6 starter type players
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110%er [9686]
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110%er [8534]
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Re: Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field
Sep 18, 2022, 4:21 PM
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Venables is gone and no two coaches are alike. Enjoy the past but it is history.
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All-TigerNet [10453]
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Good grief man.***
Sep 18, 2022, 5:11 PM
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All-TigerNet [11067]
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BV was great but it was not a perfect defense,
Sep 18, 2022, 4:28 PM
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maybe with the exception of 2018, BV's defense had moments of complete disconnect and unpreparedness (vs. SC in 2018). The 2019 Natty and 2020 Playoff games the defense was burned beyond all recognition. We tend to remember the good of BV but there were plenty of questionable moments as well. Just goes with the territory
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All-TigerNet [10824]
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Re: BV was great but it was not a perfect defense,
Sep 18, 2022, 4:30 PM
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Agreed.
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Orange Blooded [4048]
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Legend [19665]
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Mascot [23]
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Re: Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field
Sep 18, 2022, 4:29 PM
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I think we are playing more zone because of the youth on the backend at cormer. Once they get some game experience and prove themselves, I think you will see more chaos. Both freshman corners played alot last night and overall played well. We were very vulnerable down the middle on 3rd down which has to be fixed. Our safeties have more experience and should not be giving that kind of play up on 3rd down. Hopefully with a healthy D line this week we force WF into mistakes. Keep in mind we still had 4 takeaways. I don't like the 20 points but I'll take the win.
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All-TigerNet [10824]
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Re: Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field
Sep 18, 2022, 4:34 PM
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I agree. For those who keep on bringing up CBV. He was a DC for 23 years. Maybe we need to give Wes a bit of time before we compare. Also, the Tigers were missing almost half of their starting defense last night. I think we will be fine.
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110%er [9903]
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110%er [5096]
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Re: Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field
Sep 18, 2022, 4:41 PM
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Wes is finding his way. A lot of new players in the back 7.
Teams are throwing quick passes and screens which take time for new players to learn how to defend. As the season goes they will get better.
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CU Medallion [53766]
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If we get through these next two games unscathed, we will
Sep 18, 2022, 8:49 PM
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dominate the last 7. Our secondary is very young. Let them catch up with the Dline and we will dominate on D.
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Varsity [243]
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Re: Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field
Sep 18, 2022, 4:54 PM
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Thanks for the comments. Please understand I'm not pining away for BV, this wasn't like a "our D is crap" post, or an indictment on Wes or what ha doing. I just like to study inside the game because I find it interesting.
On a complete side note...ya know what I think kinda sucks....as someone who likes to study the game, why on God's green earth have we not figured out a way to broadcast the game in a way that shows all of the action and is not just "lets follow the littl3 brown oval thing" style of viewing the game. There's gotta be a way to broadcast a game where the safties can be seen, the routes and their concepts can be show, the corners in their zones or manned up, etc etc to where students of the game get the full picture, but also doesnt lose the casual observers. I mean we put a helicopter on mars...gimme my full game view, dang it. Lmao
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All-In [48263]
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Re: Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field
Sep 18, 2022, 5:46 PM
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Not sure why the TD for this post but hopefully a mistake. Love these type discussions. Both informative and entertaining because you get different perspective.
Didn't espn do that for playoffs and natty. I love to record the film study. Seems like there would be a market for that... Even if just a streaming only. It's tough living so far away and can't go to every game. Even live it's hard to see. There was a guy several yrs ago that would dissect every play the week after the game but he said he just didn't have time anymore.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field
Sep 19, 2022, 7:22 AM
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I hope I TU'd you but if I TD'd you Im sorry. My thumb got away from me.
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All-Pro [699]
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Re: Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field
Sep 18, 2022, 6:27 PM
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I think one of the main differences we are seeing is the difference in how BV and Goodwin-Conn want to use their linebackers. BV would mostly have 1 LB play around the whole field and the other linebacker(s) play close to the box either blitzing or filling gaps. Wes want's all of his linebackers to be all over the field.
BV's way has the goal of causing confusion in the pocket or at the LOS. The new way aims to cause chaos in the passing lanes. I think the big disadvantage for BV is if you had a QB who could handle the chaos he would reliably be able to go to one on one's down the field (see vs LSU in the national championship). The downfall of the Goodwin method is that there are plenty of chances for plays around the LOS (like screens) and the QB will have more time to set and throw.
I don't think one is better than the other it just depends on your philosophy and the type of players you have. With guys like Simpson and Carter it's not hard to let them play more in pass protection.
Here's the real kicker, I think Goodwin's way will get better as the season goes on. We started to see it last night with 3 interceptions where the QB had enough time but threw to a man who was clearly covered (the chaos in the passing lanes helps us with that). The big key is that you can't have guys blowing assignments in their zones like we've seen these first 3 games. If that gets tightened up you'll see QB's more unsure; leading to holding the ball longer or taking unadvised throws; leading to more sacks and picks.
I'm not a coach though so maybe I'm full of it.
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Varsity [243]
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Re: Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field
Sep 18, 2022, 8:44 PM
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Now see...this...this is what I was hoping to receive. So much appreciate you taking the time to respond. Everything you said makes absolute perfect sense.
And you're 1000% correct. Whether it be the 4-3, the 3-4, the 3-3-5, whether blitzing 1 or multiple LBs, dropping 8 in cloud zone...no matter what the defense is doing, they are sacrificing something to have strength or "numbers" so to speak in another area.
This I think it's what is causing my concern. As you correctly stated, a drawback of creating less chaos at the LOS and letting or talent roam the passing lanes is that a QB could have more time to set up and survey the field and make the correct decision...especially if his line holds up against our front four.
So that said...is Hartman the kind of QB who can dink and dunk us and pick us apart up and down the field while we helplessly watch 1st down after 1st down? Is Leary that type of qb?
At least we don't have to wait very long to find our those answers.
But again....freaking awesome info and analysis. Definitely gave me a different way to think about the scheme I'm seeing.
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All-In [48263]
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Re: Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field
Sep 18, 2022, 11:18 PM
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Thanks tiktiger and kc. Excellent info. Wouldn't you both agree that what tiktiger laid out is the new NFL model. It is to me. All you have to do is look at the linebackers being drafted.
Not only LSU chewed us on it, so did OSU. Just better have one that's a good spy because a good dual QB could cause us problems and move the chains with his feet if they have a good oline and TE that can block us on the edges.
If a team like State, or even FSU can dunk and dink down the field, even if it only ends in field goals, it greatly reduces our number of offensive possessions. And I haven't seen yet that we can be a consistent quick strike team.
Thanks again. Hopefully both of you post after each game with your discussions.
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All-Pro [699]
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Re: Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field
Sep 19, 2022, 6:31 PM
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Great Point on the NFL. I think another aspect we are seeing in the Pro Game is that Tight End's are almost always playmakers first, blockers second (Kittle, Pitts, etc.). If you've got a linebacker that can't cover well offenses are going to find ways to get him matched with that tight end and create a nightmare matchup.
This change in the pro game is why I think Briningstool could have a better NFL career than Davis Allen, and why a guy like Jordan Leggett has kind of been a disappointment in the pro's.
Of course it's not Leggett's fault he got drafted by the Jets.
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All-Pro [699]
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Re: Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field
Sep 19, 2022, 6:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field ] |
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I think Hartman definitely is that type of quarterback that can find his guys if we give him enough time. It would be interesting to see if Goodwin amps up the blitzes (I think would be a good move).
Leary, I don't know he hasn't looked super impressive so far but he's held his own. We'll have to wait and see.
Another thing to consider when it comes to Wake is that so much of their offense keys off of their ability to use the slow mesh run plays. Last Saturday that wasn't working for them (21 yards on 26 carries). If Clemson can make the Deacs one dimensional the pressure amps up on Hartman to throw around more. Ultimately I think the game against Wake Forest is a real test for our new DC's, we'll get a real chance to see if Goodwin has earned his "Weslicheck" nickname.
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Oculus Spirit [93658]
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You just forgot how many times early in the season...
Sep 19, 2022, 6:31 PM
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Venables did that. He would allow great stats against his team yet prevent them from rolling up their score. There may be a thousand reasons that only our coaches understood but I'm sure we can consider one or two.
I always accused Dabo of manufacturing adversity where none was present. That's one of the reasons. It allows for fewer three and outs which provides opportunities for our younger and less experienced players to grow and mature from the experience.
That's two and that's enough for my satisfaction.
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Oculus Spirit [76915]
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I think our D is really, really good.
Sep 19, 2022, 6:39 PM
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I have a feeling Sam is going to be hurried a bunch, far more than last year.
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All-American [593]
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Re: Can somebody help clarify what I'm seeing on the field
Sep 20, 2022, 6:59 AM
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Really enjoyed reading this dialogue and all of the thoughts on the Tiger defense. And not a single comment on politics - love it!
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