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All-In [34100]
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The McCloskeys have some problems with their story.
Jul 21, 2020, 3:42 PM
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I decided to look a little into the facts because the question of whether they're awful people should depend on the specific situation.
I know from discussing with Lakebum that the reasonableness of brandishing a weapon at passersby depends on how you imagine the danger presented by those passersby.
So here are some problems the McCloskeys have:
1) Their own lawyer has described the protest as "peaceful."
2) Mark McCloskey said the gate being knocked down by protesters in order to enter the neighborhood. Video shows the protesters just opened the gate and walked in. One of the people in front of the group is in a wheelchair.
3) The protesters were not heading to the McCloskeys' house; they were walking by it. The only thing that led people to stop was when they were approached by gun-toting McCloskeys. One of the protesters asked why they were pointing guns at them, saying "we have children here."
4) The McCloskeys were hardly in fear, a fact made clear by the fact that neither of them had loaded their weapons. Mrs. McCloskey's gun was a prop from one of her cases.
Here is one helpful video:
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/watch-now-a-closer-look-at-the-portland-place-confrontation/video_3da6ee55-ce57-584c-916d-be29d5aba0e0.html
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Rock Defender [53]
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In the end it comes down to
Jul 21, 2020, 3:57 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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Re: In the end it comes down to
Jul 21, 2020, 4:09 PM
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My guess is that if the 'mostly peaceful protester,' were aggressive toward Mac and his wife the cameras on the house caught it.
As spooneye pointed out, these are ambulance chasers so they wouldn't reveal their evidence of anything until after they get to court. That's supposing they are going to file suit for wrongful arrest or violation of some of their civil rights.
The cops should have responded and settled the 'mostly peaceful protesters,' down or arrested them. In the absence of police enforcing the law they had every right to hold weapons on their property.
The arguing with the protesters was a mental mistake, it makes me think they wanted conflict. I have no idea how anyone could say the rifle wasn't loaded other than the owner who held it.
There is some fishy chit in this situation but I still think the prosecutor should have let this one go and the police should never have taken the couple's weapons.
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Athletic Dir [881]
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I looked into it further
Jul 22, 2020, 9:32 PM
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once she pointed the gun, one of the protestors could have legally shot her in self defense. They have to be prosecuted because they were caught on camera committing a felony.
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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You're admitting the rioters were armed?
Jul 23, 2020, 8:35 AM
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The couple said they had guns but no video showed a them with guns. All the videos were shot by the rioters which makes me sure they were edited.
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All-In [34100]
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Re: You're admitting the rioters were armed?
Jul 23, 2020, 1:12 PM
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So let's see: Since you have no evidence, the facts you invent out of thin air just HAVE to be right. And you say you're "sure."
Can you be persuaded by that logic in other situations? I mean, I've never a Trump pee tape, so I guess we can be sure that the pee tape was real and Trump destroyed the evidence.
Right?
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All-In [42021]
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Based on that video...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:16 PM
[ in reply to In the end it comes down to ] |
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The protesters were just stopping by and didn't have any intention of interacting with the McCloskeys until they came outside and started pointing guns. They created the conflict, not the protesters, who, again, in that video, didn't seem to be exercising any violence.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Based on that video...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:22 PM
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All-In [34100]
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Re: Based on that video...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:26 PM
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I have seen a few videos and they all support the conclusion that the McCloskeys started the face-off. The protestors were heading to the mayor's house, not shouting violent threats into random homes.
If you find a video showing otherwise, then I'm certainly willing to change my view. I can only report on the videos I've seen.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Based on that video...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:30 PM
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CU Medallion [59974]
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Re: Based on that video...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:31 PM
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It all doesn’t matter as the Governor will pardon them. The discussion is moot at this point.
I know you know this, not yelling at you, just this thread.
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All-TigerNet [11137]
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It amazes me that the Governor of a state is already
Jul 21, 2020, 4:35 PM
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involved in a local case about two stupid, rich white people. H311, he's even called Trump about it. The victim mentality all around is just ridiculous.
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Rock Defender [53]
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“stupid rich white people”
Jul 21, 2020, 4:38 PM
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All-TigerNet [11137]
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They are wealthy...fact.
Jul 21, 2020, 4:42 PM
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Their actions were stupid...fact.
They are Caucasian...fact.
Stupid, rich, white people fits.
Same reason I refer to you as Karen, or snowflake, or the Downvotin' Dalai Lama....it fits.
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110%er [5647]
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All-TigerNet [11137]
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Please provide an adequate comparison, i beg you.
Jul 21, 2020, 8:21 PM
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Where did obama ever interfere in an ongoing criminal investigation in middle America. If you're talking about his SCOTUS comments post argument, well he did teach con law, so his opinion might have some weight.
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All-In [42021]
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He did link a video...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: Based on that video... ] |
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And asked you to link anything that supports your argument. Get on it.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: He did link a video...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:37 PM
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All-In [34100]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Based on that video...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:48 PM
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All-In [34100]
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I'm curious about the castle doctrine...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:20 PM
[ in reply to In the end it comes down to ] |
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and I'll let you know if I get a chance to research it. I wonder if it's a defense to the particular felony in question here, and how that works.
But the point of my original post goes to whether they are lying pieces of ####, not whether they broke the law.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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you don't think it's possible they felt threatened...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:27 PM
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even if they weren't?
Whiteys can be a nervous bunch.
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All-In [34100]
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Re: you don't think it's possible they felt threatened...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:30 PM
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From what I've seen, this couple is very into creating conflict. Before they complained about the protesters destroying the gate, they had sued the trustees of the community for not maintaining it well. They sued to add a triangle to their property that they had trespassed on in order to obtain adverse possession. They seem to sue everybody. I mean, I'm a lawyer but I don't go around suing everyone on my own behalf the way these two do.
I think their personality profile combined with the video evidence (look at Mrs. Blumpkin approaching the crowd) strongly suggests that they're being dickholes because they don't like BLM.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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no, between her and her husband...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:33 PM
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she obviously has the pEEEEEn us
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Hall of Famer [24687]
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You ain't right... (Well maybe this time) ;~)***
Jul 21, 2020, 5:44 PM
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Athletic Dir [881]
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All-TigerNet [11137]
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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if I saw a "mob" in this current climate marching down...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:34 PM
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my street I might locate my weapon...but I certainly ain't marching out in my front yard waving it around.
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All-TigerNet [11137]
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Because you have common d a m sense. They clearly
Jul 21, 2020, 4:37 PM
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don't possess this particular quality.
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CU Medallion [59974]
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Re: Because you have common d a m sense. They clearly
Jul 21, 2020, 4:42 PM
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No. This strikes a nerve with me. These ####### BLM people have been shooting fireworks at cops. Throwing rocks, throwing anything. They have been looting and burning and tagging. Beating up white people in malls on the streets, etc. #### them.
#### that noise. They come into my neighborhood under that guise, I am ready. #### them and #### you for judging me cause I want to protect my family.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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you are generalizing...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:43 PM
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all protestors aren't doing that.
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CU Medallion [59974]
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Re: you are generalizing...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:45 PM
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Well then come up with a new name and distinguish yourself
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All-TigerNet [11137]
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Sounds like you're all hopped up on
Jul 21, 2020, 4:46 PM
[ in reply to Re: Because you have common d a m sense. They clearly ] |
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MAGA victim juice and just want the thrill of pointing a gun at someone the TV has told you to hate. Fugg that noise. If somebody is directly threatening you, I get it. If they're just walking past your house like these people are doing, you're just acting like a fool.
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Hall of Famer [24687]
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CU Medallion [59974]
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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because the minute I come out into my yard showing...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:41 PM
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a weapon I am offering up a challenge and I sure better be ready to use it.
Keep it hidden, let them make me respond.
I would have a hard time dealing with shooting somebody even if it was absolutely necessary.
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All-In [34100]
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And that part came up in my conversation with Lakebum.
Jul 21, 2020, 5:06 PM
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If we agree that it's okay to use deadly force when we feel threatened, then any of those marchers (let's just pick the one in the wheelchair for extra sympathy) could have arguably been justified in killing the McCloskeys.
They're literally pointing guns at them. That's a direct threat, as opposed to "I saw scary people on TV and I think these people look just as scary even though technically they're just walking by." The guns are pointed right at them! If anyone is allowed to stand their ground and get away with murder, it's the protesters not the McCloskeys.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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I agree...AND...
Jul 21, 2020, 5:17 PM
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even if I don't necessarily point the gun, I feel like I'm creating an unneeded possing match by just having it out.
If they aren't threatening me, best to let them go on by.
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-In [34100]
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I don't have the answer to that yet, but
Jul 21, 2020, 5:41 PM
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I saw the "experts differ" kind of results when looking around for explanations.
And yes they were trespassing on private property, no doubt, though the property in question was not the McCloskeys'.
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Hall of Famer [24687]
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Gated community... They were just 'Neighborhood Watch'.***
Jul 21, 2020, 5:49 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-In [34100]
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No, not their property. Org's property.
Jul 22, 2020, 8:34 AM
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Their rights to the property is likely no different from your and my rights to the street outside our house. The org has all rights to the common areas.
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Athletic Dir [881]
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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I guess my thought is (that I haven’t explained well)
Jul 21, 2020, 5:48 PM
[ in reply to Re: And that part came up in my conversation with Lakebum. ] |
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Have your gun ready in your house.
If these are “peaceful” protestors they will walk on by.
If these are people who are looking for trouble, the minute you come out of your house with a gun, those kind of people are going to test you. You better be ready to shoot somebody, because if you don’t, they are going to keep going until you pull the trigger.
I’m all for people protecting themselves and their property. THIS video makes the homeowners look like the aggressors.
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Standout [345]
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Re: I guess my thought is (that I haven’t explained well)
Jul 22, 2020, 8:31 AM
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This.
I will gladly shoot someone who attempts to break into my home or harm my family but I just don’t understand these people. Running outside and pointing weapons at a crowd, making them fear for their lives when you have ZERO idea how many are armed, what their intentions are or what they might do is incredibly stupid. You are putting yourself directly in harm’s way.
If you are worried, go inside, arm yourself and get to a good vantage point with cover and choke points leading to you. If the mob does something, you are in a great position to defend you and your family. If they just walk on by, great, no harm no foul.
Also, all those people who talk about how they will run out there and protect their family are succumbing to either an anger or a fear response. Neither are good in a situation like that. You need to think clearly when you or your family is in danger. Running outside, brandishing a weapon and confronting someone is dumb and can very well result in you being dead.
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110%er [7185]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Athletic Dir [881]
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Possibly to just brandishing,
Jul 21, 2020, 10:26 PM
[ in reply to I'm curious about the castle doctrine... ] |
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pointing the guns is assault. Consider if you didn't like a group walking through your condo community and decided to aim a gun at them. You could get away with it if they were inside your condo, but not on the common property. You would be charged too.
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110%er [7185]
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I don't have a dog in this fight
Jul 21, 2020, 4:31 PM
[ in reply to In the end it comes down to ] |
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and couldn't care less how it turns out, but in general I think this is a big problem with gun laws. There's a big difference between FEELING threatened and actually being in danger.
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Legend [15730]
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Interestingly, Media calls every protest "peaceful" or
Jul 21, 2020, 4:44 PM
[ in reply to In the end it comes down to ] |
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"mostly peaceful" as buildings are burning, windshields are being busted in and cops are being pelted with projectiles. The idea that it is reasonable to assume that you or your property are threatened might be fairly easy to prove, I would think. After the prosecutor indicates it was a peaceful protest, just play a montage of reporters pointing to the peaceful protests that erupted into violence.
Just a thought...I'm not really advocating for or against these people. The visual made them look silly but the application of the law generally surprises me. In any event, I do enough advocating for the lesser of two evils (or stupids) around here and don't really care how this one turns out.
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110%er [7185]
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Ah yes
Jul 21, 2020, 4:47 PM
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just like how you can play clips of all the neighbors of mass shooters who thought "he was just a good quiet boy who kept to himself" to justify shooting an unarmed man.
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All-In [34100]
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Re: Ah yes
Jul 21, 2020, 5:00 PM
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That's my thought as well. I don't think we can afford to permit an "I've been frightened by watching too much Fox News" defense.
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Legend [15730]
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I guess we shall see. The more comments I read, the more I
Jul 21, 2020, 9:21 PM
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would think this will go away (or I guess, by the Governor's comments, I know it will go away at some point). My favorite new finding is that the protesters were trespassing already. So they had already broken a law, whether they broke the gate to do so or now.
State Rep. Rasheen Aldridge (D), an organizer with the civil rights group Expect Us, told CBS affiliate KMOV that the protesters never threatened the couple and walked on private property as part of their nonviolent demonstration.
“Just like in many disobedient protests, even in the ’60s, you break laws, make people feel uncomfortable,” Aldridge told the station. “We’re not doing anything where we’re hurting anyone or putting anyone in danger.”
So they were trespassing, and they knew they were trespassing. Already on private property, in an environment where so-called "peaceful protests" always seem to end in violence. If he's able to prove that anyone made any threats toward them I would say that's a pretty comfortable position...but as always, I'm no lawyer.
And my favorite part, of course, is that the protesters are allowed to exercise civil disobedience...to "break laws, make people feel uncomfortable"...but the people defending their personal property aren't. Per the State Rep.
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Legend [15730]
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Can you explain that analogy? I think it’s missing the mark.***
Jul 21, 2020, 6:29 PM
[ in reply to Ah yes ] |
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110%er [7185]
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Re: Can you explain that analogy? I think it’s missing the mark.***
Jul 21, 2020, 6:36 PM
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Since it's okay to feel threatened by peaceful protesters (some of them turn into violent property destroying maniacs), it's also acceptable to feel threatened by quiet kids who wear a lot of black or really anyone since they MIGHT do harm to you or your property at a later date/time.
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Legend [15730]
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Yeah, I feel like your referencing something specific and
Jul 21, 2020, 9:23 PM
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I'm still not getting it.
Anyway, I get people who think these people were in the wrong. I certainly think it was poorly thought out, but I haven't had protesters march down my private road.
We'll see where it ends up.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Athletic Dir [881]
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I expect a conviction and then pardon
Jul 21, 2020, 10:22 PM
[ in reply to In the end it comes down to ] |
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they will still be disbarred though. At least the woman.
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All-In [34100]
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Nah, not getting disbarred.
Jul 22, 2020, 9:39 PM
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You get disbarred for stealing your client's money or sleeping with them. And fraud. That's pretty much it.
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Athletic Dir [881]
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And for a felony conviction***
Jul 22, 2020, 11:25 PM
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All-American [590]
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Re: And for a felony conviction***
Jul 23, 2020, 7:11 AM
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Uhh, until it's pardoned...
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Athletic Dir [881]
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With a pardon comes an
Jul 23, 2020, 8:28 AM
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implied admission of guilt. The bar association doesn’t necessarily reinstate people who are pardoned, particularly when the pardon is done with corrupt political purpose.
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All-TigerNet [11137]
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I'm all for gun ownership, but these are
Jul 21, 2020, 3:58 PM
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deplorable idiots who don't deserve the privilege.
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All-In [42021]
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But but but... I was told...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:15 PM
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If I didn't think it was wrong that they were arrested, I'm "messed up". I thought I was supposed to blindly defend them?
Yeah, after seeing that and those details, these people never feared for their lives. There isn't castle doctrine at play.
You don't brandish an unloaded gun if you truly fear for your life.
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Rock Defender [53]
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+1 for that last line in particular.***
Jul 21, 2020, 4:19 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-In [42021]
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88. He is blindly defending.
Jul 21, 2020, 4:23 PM
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Reference is original post on this below. He said if you don't think it's wrong they are facing charges, you're "messed up".
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Rock Defender [53]
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Y’all are tough on his post titles
Jul 21, 2020, 4:25 PM
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All-In [42021]
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That wasn't his point.
Jul 21, 2020, 4:30 PM
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And I quote:
"If you don't think this was wrong you're messed up... badly messed up."
"Seem like it's an invitation for BLM or whoever to invade someone's private property. It also seems like it a warning to land/homeowners to stand down and let the mob do what they want or be prosecuted."
"Imo this development sends two messages. It's OK to break into someone's private property, threaten the lives of the owners. It's not within the rights of property owners to defend themselves or their property.
At no time in the video did I see either of the couple point a weapon at the 'mostly peaceful protesters.' That may have happened but I didn't see it on the videos." He is potentially a ###### liar with this right here.
"I don't think it's sincere of you to claim they were just walking down the street. They'd already broken the community gate and were threatening the lives of the McCloskys." Spoon's video disproves this claim... thus, his blind defense without making an effort to research further.
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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I saw her waving a gun around.
Jul 22, 2020, 8:18 AM
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I didn't notice her point it at someone until a particular video surfaced here. It's also clear in the video that the 'mostly peaceful protesters,' were standing in front of the couple long enough to argue. That fails your 'just walking down the street,' standard.
While I think the couple are two lowlife ambulance chasers I still insist that they have the right to defend themselves and their property. This entire fiasco sends a couple bad messages. If you break a gate, enter private property and someone pulls a gun they will be arrested for protecting themselves by standing their ground and protecting their property and you will walk away scott free without being charged with vandalism for breaking the gate down or trespassing on private property.
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Athletic Dir [881]
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I'm pretty sure the couple broke the gate
Jul 22, 2020, 9:43 PM
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They had been sending letters complaining about its condition and demanding the association replace it for years.
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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If you put that faith in God...
Jul 23, 2020, 8:37 AM
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you'd be a lot happier, J.
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All-In [42021]
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Re: I saw her waving a gun around.
Jul 23, 2020, 1:05 PM
[ in reply to I saw her waving a gun around. ] |
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You have a right to protect yourself and your property if there exists a valid threat to those entities. You have a right to simply stand in your yard with your gun (at least, I assume in MO you can just as you can in SC).
You don't have a right to point a gun at people who are passing by your home with no intention to harm it, and you don't get to assume they might harm it thus justifying pointing a gun at them.
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All-In [26968]
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To me, just an observer...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:20 PM
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They acted more like people trying to make a statement, than people trying to protect their safety/property. I don't observe trepidation; I observe bravado.
The thing I have not observed is what the other parties were saying/doing. But whatever they were doing, it doesn't appear to be very troubling to the homeowners, based on their behaviors.
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All-In [26968]
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I mean, it's the physical manifestation
Jul 21, 2020, 4:26 PM
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of a lot of memes I saw online after the protesting started, that showed "good ol' boys" waiting with their guns for the protesters to come. It's a "come and get it" attitude, not a "please don't hurt me" attitude.
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CU Medallion [59974]
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Re: The McCloskeys have some problems with their story.
Jul 21, 2020, 4:28 PM
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I stand with them. Seeing what they have done in all other large cities, I would do the same. They are not tagging my house and they are not threatening me. I will go to jail for a few days or fight a lawsuit, but I will not stand down until they come into my house. Eff that noise. I see 20-30 people coming down my street yelling and chanting. By god I might be a deplorable but I don’t care. I am coming outside and putting my Adirondack chairs in the front yard and brandish the weapon of my choice.
If you don’t like it, suck my ####. I have been to jail a couple of times for a night or two. I have fought the lawyers. I am holding firm.
You bunch of patsies need to grow some balls and know your role as a man in life.
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All-In [42021]
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If you came running out of your house...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:31 PM
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Pointing a gun at people walking down the street because you're afraid of them, you, sir, are the patsy and lack necessary cajones.
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CU Medallion [59974]
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Re: If you came running out of your house...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:38 PM
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You are the ##### looking down the barrel
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110%er [7185]
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Re: If you came running out of your house...
Jul 21, 2020, 4:51 PM
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All-In [42021]
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Athletic Dir [881]
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All-In [34100]
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Athletic Dir [881]
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You gotta change your attitude
Jul 21, 2020, 10:51 PM
[ in reply to Re: The McCloskeys have some problems with their story. ] |
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Decide to brandish a weapon because you don't like the look of the crowd? Somebody could take it from you and shove it up your ### on principle. It happens to people like you all the time.
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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Are you stronger than the average male?***
Jul 22, 2020, 8:45 AM
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Athletic Dir [881]
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Nothing to do with me
Jul 22, 2020, 8:52 PM
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But people like that who brandish weapons end up having them taken from them all the time. Most won't report it out of embarrassment.
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110%er [8885]
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Re: The McCloskeys have some problems with their story.
Jul 21, 2020, 6:36 PM
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my only two issues are
the bare feet if planning to open a can on wa on a mob
the other is horizontal stripes
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All-In [40872]
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Every one of those POS "peaceful" protesters should have
Jul 21, 2020, 6:42 PM
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been locked up
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110%er [5647]
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Re: The McCloskeys have some problems with their story.
Jul 21, 2020, 7:27 PM
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It's hard to know what you would do in this situation. I am guessing I would have my gun, but stay in the house. Seems like a better defensive position.
I hate to say it, because I think the people who messed up the gate, etc. should go to jail or be fined or whatever, but it does not seem like the two are fearing for their life.
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Rock Defender [53]
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People keep saying fearing for their life
Jul 21, 2020, 8:07 PM
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All-In [26968]
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Is brandishing a weapon a "use of force"?***
Jul 22, 2020, 7:31 AM
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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Re: Is brandishing a weapon a "use of force"?***
Jul 23, 2020, 8:40 AM
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The idea was that it should be a show of force to avoid the use of force.
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Athletic Dir [881]
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I just watched the video
Jul 21, 2020, 10:40 PM
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When she points the gun at people on the sidewalk and street, which is not her property, that is aggravated assault. Under Missouri law, if one of the people she aimed the gun at felt threatened enough to fire a gun at her in self-defense, what would happen?
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