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The two "crowds" talk past each other at every turn.
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Replies: 58  

The two "crowds" talk past each other at every turn.

emoji_events [7]
May 9, 2022, 2:35 PM
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Abortion supporters, for the most part, don't believe it is the killing of a child. Else they wouldn't support it.

Those who oppose abortion, for the most part, are not trying to do anything to a "woman's body," but to protect a child's body. It has nothing to do with control over women.

The fundamental question of "is this a child?" is the difference in the positions. Obviously, I believe the pro-abortion position is problematic, because at some point -- what point? -- they have to admit that this is a child.

I know, personally, I can never compromise on my position on this topic. It is settled. However, I want to have compassion for those who have a different opinion, realizing that their opinion is not murderous in intent. I have not always done this. I challenge and implore those of you who disagree with me to do the same, realizing that I truly and literally believe this is about a child's life, and that there is no ill intent toward women.

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I'd be surprised if anyone here...

[3]
May 9, 2022, 2:41 PM
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Felt you harbored ill intent toward women over this issue.

And I understand where you're coming from (this is actually an issue that tears at me pretty hard and I can't bring myself to formulate a definitive stance).

I do wish you would tweak your death penalty stance; I know you speak biblically when it comes to abortion, but that same thought should be applied to innocent convicts.

If you have a problem with the government allowing innocent children to be aborted, you should feel the same way about innocent adults getting executed.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


I am 1000% against innocent people being executed.

[1]
May 9, 2022, 2:49 PM
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Obviously. Don't want to get into that again here.

I have not had anyone say to me, individually and directly, that I had ill intent towards women. But I've seen it many, many times as a general statement. And I believe that statement is generally not true...I am just an example of it not being true.

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Too many on both sides act like it's black or white

[2]
May 9, 2022, 3:09 PM
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As you said, they'll overreact and claim pro-lifers have ill will towards women, want to control women, etc. And the other side will make comments about how they want to murder babies and such.

The abortion issue has a LOT of gray area, and anyone who doesn't see that may be contributing to the problem.

I do, however, agree that this issue needs to go back to the states.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


Re: Too many on both sides act like it's black or white


May 9, 2022, 4:02 PM
Reply

I agree, no pro-choice people want to murder babies; that is certainly no sane person's goal, and does not apply to 99.9% of pro-choice people, for sure. However, a lot of pro-choice people are consciously, admittedly willing to kill fetuses and/or allow them to be killed in order to preserve what they see as more important, the woman's right to chose to do that. That's just the truth. Now, they make some very good, persuasive arguments and justifications, but that is what it boils down to. That's not really a gray area. Now, it's highly debatable as to when life begins, which does impact the argument, so that part is a big gray area. Still, people may not want to kill babies, but they are willing to kill babies in the womb as a form of birth control.

I know a lot of good, reasonable people who are pro choice. My daughters are both pro-choice and they are both smart, thoughtful, loving, reasonable, compassionate people, and I love them both as much as any father can love his children. I have tons of friends who are pro choice. I am not here to demonize or throw shade at them, or anybody for simply holding that view. I, like Prod, oppose it totally on the grounds that I believe it's wrong to kill a fetus as a means of birth control (and even I know that is complicated and often carries a lot of mental anguish and reflection).

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Re: Too many on both sides act like it's black or white

[2]
May 9, 2022, 4:08 PM
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Idk. Didn't we have one here who just yesterday Said he was ok with abortion up to birth?

Idk how else we can take that except he is ok with murdering a child.

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Are exceptions in the case of rape or incest also murder?


May 9, 2022, 4:13 PM
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Life of the mother?

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Re: Are exceptions in the case of rape or incest also murder?


May 9, 2022, 4:28 PM
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I'm pro-choice with limitations so asking the wrong person.

But, ill answer, as far as rape or incest, she had plenty of time to abort. Absolutely no reason to wait til birth.

Health of the mother, like a literally life or death situation, I'd also be ok with it at birth. But, that is very seldom the case no matter how much the far left pro-choicers want us to believe.

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I misunderstood your point.


May 9, 2022, 4:48 PM
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You're right. I did ask the wrong person.

My question was about laws that restrict abortion but carve out exceptions in the case of rape, incest or the life of the mother.

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I was once ambivalent about the death penalty, mostly

[2]
May 9, 2022, 2:54 PM
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because of the nature of some of the crimes, but I've changed on that. Not our place to do that, and too much risk anyway.

An interesting question might be: If abortion is not a constitutional matter because a life is involved, is the death penalty a constitutional matter for the same reason? At first glance, I could take that position.

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It's been argued that it's a violation of the 8th amendment

[1]
May 9, 2022, 3:01 PM
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"cruel and unusual punishment," but the Supreme Court affirmed it was Constitutional in 1976.

In the fifth amendment, a person can't be deprived of "life, liberty or property without due process of law" implies that all three can be deprived, with the due process of law. Of course, all three definitely are so deprived, all the time. Life being the rarest deprivation.

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Re: I was once ambivalent about the death penalty, mostly

[2]
May 9, 2022, 4:11 PM
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I've evolved on the death penalty too. Unless you're male and poor, you're unlikely to receive the death penalty. It seems to be meted out in a rather capricious fashion.

Perhaps an exception could be made for killers of prison guards otherwise their lives would be rather worthless working around inmates already serving life.

However, it would still pain me to know that a child killer was allowed to live.

Life without the possibility of parole in a maximum security prison would be worse than death for most of us.

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For the record, I oppose the death penalty for two reasons.

[3]
May 9, 2022, 3:22 PM
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1) We execute innocent people, and there is no way to prevent it.
2) It's not clear that the death penalty actually works to help prevent or reduce murders.

Executing people simply to punish them serves no purpose whatsoever, so what's the point?

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


I think at the end of the day...

[2]
May 9, 2022, 3:28 PM
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Those who really support it know what you said is correct, but it just satiates their desire for revenge involving a heinous crime. But that's not an argument they would bring to the table.

The death penalty has been proven faulty and not effective as a deterrent. There are stats to back that up. But when given those stats to someone who supports it, the response becomes increasingly emotional.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


I couldn't quote those stats, but I studied it in a college

[2]
May 9, 2022, 3:36 PM
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class many years ago, and at the time the consensus was that the death penalty was not an effective deterrent. That really opened my eyes and made me rethink it. I assumed that had not changed, and I agree that the only reason for keeping the death penalty is to satisfy some feeling of revenge, or power over the criminal, because it serves no other purpose.

Of course, if everyone who committed a murder was executed, and no innocent people were ever executed, then it probably would be very effective, and I could support it, but that is not and never will be the case.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Its probably not effective due to the time between being


May 9, 2022, 3:41 PM
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convicted and actually being put to death.

If it were more immediate, I think it would definitely work as a deterrent.

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So what you're saying is we need more Judge Dreds.***


May 9, 2022, 3:48 PM
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2022 white level member flag link

hey, jimmy.


John Hinkley example = distrust of legal system's judgment


May 9, 2022, 7:45 PM
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Example of why citizens 'trust' the death penalty more so than life in prison:

John Hinkley (would-be assassin of R.Reagan).

"Life" in prison for attempted assassination; Hinkley did his best and Reagan almost died ... but lived.

Hinkley will be unconditionally released this year. Free as you and me.

(***) High profile examples such as this lead to (justifiable) distrust in the judgement of the judicial system.

There are more examples of "life in prison" convicts that actually did murder another person. But the "I am a changed man" routine + great lawyers get these people out of jail more often than many in the general public can tolerate.

That's why public support for the death penalty remains prevalent.

Not saying that's good; not saying that's bad. It is what it is.

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This in no way...

[1]
May 9, 2022, 9:16 PM
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Excuses or defends innocent people being put to death after wrongful conviction. This is a weak, pathetic attempt at a defense.

One thousand Hinkleys should be released before one innocent man is put to death. Your argument is one of the worst I've ever seen for it.

You cannot logically defend the death penalty. You can't until you can somehow justify how one innocent life is worth it.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


I'd be curious to see the data on that because from the


May 9, 2022, 10:14 PM
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sources I read, parole boards are filled with people very much opposed to the idea of parole, and the parole system itself constantly sends people back to prison for very trivial technicalities. So the idea that there is, in any meaningful quantity, killers getting back on the streets who otherwise would be killed because they had both a good lawyer and could put on a show, is pure paranoia.

I don't have the data on this at the moment, but my guess is that the vast majority of people on death row are indigents who had a public defender, in which their time on death row had not made them vastly wealthy in which they could afford a high priced defense attorney to spring them.

2022 white level member flag link

hey, jimmy.


Well here is one stat:


May 9, 2022, 10:19 PM
Reply

"According to the Equal Justice Initiative, 95% of convicts languishing on death row in the United States come from underprivileged backgrounds. Their court-appointed lawyers often don’t have the means to expedite the DNA or ballistics tests that could unravel the prosecution’s case."

Source: https://www.fidh.org/en/issues/death-penalty/the-death-penalty-a-punishment-for-the-poor#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20Equal%20Justice,could%20unravel%20the%20prosecution
's%20case.

2022 white level member flag link

hey, jimmy.


You might enjoy this. Well, not enjoy it, but appreciate it.

[2]
May 9, 2022, 2:55 PM
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One, Caitlin is a world-class writer, and it is just excellent writing. But the crux of it is the dishonesty behind the abortion debate and a need for greater empathy. She draws a different conclusion than you sure are, but it aligns pretty well with your post. The main passage that resonated with me is this:

"The argument for abortion, if made honestly, requires many words: It must evoke the recent past, the dire consequences to women of making a very simple medical procedure illegal. The argument against it doesn’t take even a single word. The argument against it is a picture.

This is not an argument anyone is going to win. The loudest advocates on both sides are terrible representatives for their cause. When women are urged to “shout your abortion,” and when abortion becomes the subject of stand-up comedy routines, the attitude toward abortion seems ghoulish. Who could possibly be proud that they see no humanity at all in the images that science has made so painfully clear? When anti-abortion advocates speak in the most graphic terms about women “sucking babies out of the womb,” they show themselves without mercy. They are not considering the extremely human, complex, and often heartbreaking reasons behind women’s private decisions. The truth is that the best argument on each side is a #### good one, and until you acknowledge that fact, you aren’t speaking or even thinking honestly about the issue. You certainly aren’t going to convince anybody. Only the truth has the power to move."

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/12/the-things-we-cant-face/600769/


2022 white level member flag link

hey, jimmy.


Thanks, good words.***


May 9, 2022, 3:02 PM
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Excellent piece....I was trying to make similar points...


May 10, 2022, 9:26 AM
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here:

https://www.tigernet.com/clemson-forum/message/what-i-think-gets-missed-a-lot-in-this-discussion-30678694#30678694


"To me, it comes down to respect of reasonable positions. Too many pro-choice folks don't respect the positions of too many pro-life folks and vice versa."

But the writer in the piece you posted said it a LOT better than I did.

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The Bible is pretty clear....


May 9, 2022, 3:57 PM
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Genesis 2:7, He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being.”

So the fetus isn't a human being until birth.

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Re: The Bible is pretty clear....


May 9, 2022, 4:02 PM
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if not a human, what is it?

Jeremiah 1:5


Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;

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A soul.***


May 9, 2022, 4:05 PM
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2022 white level member flag link

Incorrect

[1]
May 9, 2022, 4:10 PM
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You cannot tell me that my 2 year old was just a "soul" for the entire nine months she was in the womb.

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Please forgive me, @IneligibleUser


The OP said....


May 9, 2022, 4:13 PM
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Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;



This is a soul.



What was in the womb was a fetus that relied on your wife to survive pre-birth. Now it needs yo ugly a## to bring home da bacon!

2022 white level member flag link

When is a human being capable of not relying on someone


May 9, 2022, 4:15 PM
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else to take care of it? Would you say a 10 year old is not a human being? Because I would have a hard time believing that a 10 year old could take care of themselves and survive.

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Please forgive me, @IneligibleUser


I'm talking about a fetus pre birth and how it depends


May 9, 2022, 4:16 PM
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on the mother's body.

After birth you are correct a baby and a kid still needs to be provided for.

2022 white level member flag link

I am no biblical scholar

[1]
May 9, 2022, 4:02 PM
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But that appears to be a metaphor and less of statement of scientific fact.

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Please forgive me, @IneligibleUser


Well yea...that's the entire Bible.***

[1]
May 9, 2022, 4:05 PM
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2022 white level member flag link

Sure, but what in the Bible is actually scientific fact?

[1]
May 9, 2022, 4:06 PM
Reply

It's a collection of myths, allegories, and anecdotes to:

1) explain things that science couldn't explain at the time
2) keep the masses in line

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Re: Sure, but what in the Bible is actually scientific fact?


May 9, 2022, 4:08 PM
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science says the human is alive at conception

do you have alternate science?

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Please quote where "science" says this.

[1]
May 9, 2022, 4:09 PM
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Is there some all-encompassing SCIENCE handbook that I should have access to?

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Re: Please quote where "science" says this.


May 9, 2022, 4:11 PM
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this juan

https://acpeds.org/position-statements/when-human-life-begins

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What an innocuous, official-sounding name. American College

[1]
May 9, 2022, 4:26 PM
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of Pediatricians. Let's take a gander at who this organization is.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/american-college-pediatricians


"The American College of Pediatricians (ACPeds) is a fringe anti-LGBTQ hate group that masquerades as the premier U.S. association of pediatricians to push anti-LGBTQ junk science, primarily via far-right conservative media and filing amicus briefs in cases related to gay adoption and marriage equality.?"

Lulz.

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Pulled it right out his google @$s.***


May 9, 2022, 4:32 PM
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2022 white level member flag link

Re: What an innocuous, official-sounding name. American College


May 9, 2022, 4:36 PM
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moar science for you two baby killers

There are two genders.

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I don't take science advice from someone who


May 9, 2022, 4:44 PM
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believes in a magic wizard sky daddy.

2022 white level member flag link

Re: I don't take science advice from someone who


May 9, 2022, 4:49 PM
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God is everywhere, He made science

Example, here is some dirt, some water, a ball of fire in the sky, make me an oxygen machine

while you are at it, make my oxygen machine feed muh squirrels

lol

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Take the Bible out of it, the words God and He out of it....


May 9, 2022, 5:00 PM
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continue your research and expand your mind.

2022 white level member flag link

There is 0.0 anything Christian about you.

[1]
May 9, 2022, 9:11 PM
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Don't come slinking in here with some BS about your faith and loving mankind and yada yada.

You are full of hate and vitriol and anti-Christ.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


The Southern Poverty Law Center?

[2]
May 9, 2022, 4:49 PM
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You have GOT to be kidding! Are you really that isolated in your bubble that you have totally lost all objectivity?

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


It's a fringe, far-right, political group.

[1]
May 9, 2022, 5:02 PM
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How many sources would you like? Would you quote StormFront in a discussion about CRT, and dismiss criticism of them because SPLC classifies them as a hate group?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_College_of_Pediatricians

https://freedomforallamericans.org/truth-alert-american-academy-of-pediatrics-v-american-college-of-pediatrics/


https://keepkidshealthy.com/2017/09/06/what-is-the-american-college-of-pediatricians/


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I'm not disputing that, just questioning the objectivity and


May 9, 2022, 5:09 PM
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reliability of your source. You're using one extremely biased, extremist source to discredit another for being extremely biased and extremist, and you appear to be oblivious.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Except that I provided more when you discounted

[2]
May 9, 2022, 5:12 PM
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SPLC in particular. You want more?

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More what, and for what?***


May 9, 2022, 5:15 PM
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2022 purple level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Plenty of academic articles about it


May 9, 2022, 4:12 PM
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Seems pretty scientific to me... Princeton has a decent reputation.

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html


2022 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpgringofhonor-clemsonrulez08.jpg flag link

Please forgive me, @IneligibleUser


We killed 27 babies through IVF then. Great definition***

[2]
May 9, 2022, 4:16 PM
Reply

 

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Cole @ Beach Cole w/ Clemson Hat


Feel free to take it up with Lee Silver***


May 9, 2022, 4:23 PM
Reply



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Please forgive me, @IneligibleUser


Nah, bruh

[1]
May 9, 2022, 9:13 PM
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Anyone who lumps IVF stuff into this abortion debate doesn't know what they're talking about and MUST be excluded, shamed, and dismissed.

People attempting IVF are TRYING to bring life into the world. This doesn't apply.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline


IVF is a conundrum, but I agree it's not the same.

[1]
May 9, 2022, 9:55 PM
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The first one anywhere was done in England. The second one was done at ODU in VA. The guy who did it - the entire lab did it, but he ran the lab - was a guy name Dr. Ed Wortham. I was friends with him for about a decade, when we both lived in Tulsa. Humble, kind, ethical. His answer about "killing life" went along these line (paraphrasing what I have heard him say many times, usually in answer to a question in front of a group, so this is close to word for word):

"I couldn't sleep at night if I thought I was killing someone or something. But it is true those are human lives. How can one reconcile that?

"When a couple decides to conceive, we know that 50% or more of conceptions will end in miscarriage, at least half of those unknown to the mother. My personal belief is that this is not God's original creation, but is part of the result of our fallen state. This belief is relevant only because we are discussing morality here. Regardless, this is what happens. It is the natural and unavoidable consequence of attempting to give birth. One knows it when one begins.

"IVF has the same natural and unavoidable consequence of attempting to give birth. We know it when we begin. Our labs do not keep or sell any fetuses. When the mother gives birth and decides she wants no more children, all the remaining ones are destroyed. It is part of our contract with the parents.

"Death is part of our world now. This is a difficult subject because we know the miracle of birth and the horror of death, and we don't like mixing the two. What does God do with all the spontaneous abortions? I don't know, but he handles it. And he can handle these. What I can't do is choose to kill one for my own purposes.

"Some esteemed and loved colleagues who I greatly respect use this same argument to conclude that life does not begin at conception. I disagree because I believe imperfection is our fault, not God's. Death is on our hands, not His. We manage ourselves in this imperfect world as best we discern His leading. I can help someone conceive, with the inevitable consequences. I cannot take an otherwise living being."

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Just wanting to clarify

[1]
May 10, 2022, 8:41 AM
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I am not Lee Silver. That is not my opinion.

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Please forgive me, @IneligibleUser


Lawd have mercy what "science" books did you read at


May 9, 2022, 4:11 PM
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homeschool?

2022 white level member flag link

Re: Lawd have mercy what "science" books did you read at

[1]
May 9, 2022, 4:12 PM
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https://acpeds.org/position-statements/when-human-life-begins

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Re: Lawd have mercy what "science" books did you read at

[1]
May 9, 2022, 6:17 PM
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So why do IVF clinics not face the wrath for the "slaughter" of babies that Planned Parenthood does?

2022 orange level member flag link

Bingo. And still does that today.***


May 9, 2022, 4:10 PM
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