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Hall of Famer [22215]
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I posted this on an FSU board.
Sep 7, 2021, 8:40 AM
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I'll be interested in seeing what they say. (It sometimes helps to get an "outsider's perspective."
I hope y'all take this in the spirit in which I mean it. I hated to see Clemson struggle. I was, quite frankly, shocked to see the offense struggle. DJ threw for 400+ yards and put up 40 points against ND last year. I never expected to see 3 points against UGA.
Anyway, here is the post:
The guys on the Clemson board are typical fans. They are calling for coaches to be fired (specifically the OL coach and the offensive coordinator). The offense stunk, so fire the coaches.
Well, I've been thinking about it. How could a team with all the talent that they have on offense (Clemson) look that bad? Even though the UGA defense was stellar - 3 points, 7 sacks and only two yards rushing? Their OL looked like the FSU OL we grew accustomed to in the past few years.
So, how much is on the OL coach and the OC?
Two quotes come to my mind. One is a standard line coaches use all the time when they are game planning. The other is from Bobby, that Mark Richt used at the funeral.
1. "It's not about what we (coaches) know, it's about what they "players) know."
2. "Mark, Charlie keeps throwing the ball to the wrong team. Is that his fault, is it my fault, or is it your fault?"
And, coaches all the time keep saying, "We've got to put our players in the best position possible for them to win."
Well, that is the job of the coordinator - put the players in the best possible position to win.
I still say Mark Richt was a genius at FSU. He saw the talent he had. He also saw an OL that couldn't open a hole in a wet paper bag. He also saw an OL coach that was not getting them any better at run blocking. So, he developed an offense that put the players in the best position for them to win. And, he figured out an offense that guys like Warrick Dunn and William Floyd and others could succeed in even behind that OL.
So, getting back to Clemson. From my 30,000 foot perspective, the OL is the weak link. They got manhandled last year in the game against Ohio State. They were completely outclassed against UGA. All last year, Etienne had to make yardage on his on, he almost never had a hole open in the line. He had to run through or around tacklers in the backfield all year.
So, assuming the problem is the OL, here is the job of Tony Elliott. Figure out someway to build an offense in spite of that. You know what they can and cannot do. Figure it out. If they can't power block the DL, then don't expect them to do it. Figure out what they CAN do and design an offense around that.
Richt did it with giving a simple instruction to the OL coach: "Protect my QB." I was told by someone who watched practices that on a typical day when each segment had 15 five minute sessions, the OL would spend 12 of them on pass protection. He figured out a way to mix running plays into the offense behind "the wall of lard."
I don't know what Clemson's problem is. It may not be the OL. It may be something else. But, it is the job of the OC to figure it out.
I suspect that Dabo and Elliott had a meeting on Sunday night. The conversation went something like:
"Tony our offense only got 2 yards rushing and gave up 7 sacks. Is that their fault, is it my fault or is it your fault?"
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110%er [6238]
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no excuses...
Sep 7, 2021, 8:46 AM
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Our OL and playcalling have been weak the last few years. We won in 2018 in spite of it.
Have heard several NFL scouts talk about our simplistic offensive schemes.
I think we got away with it because of unbelievable talent. That talent is not there now and our system has been exposed.
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Varsity [219]
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Re: no excuses...
Sep 7, 2021, 11:00 AM
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Amen to that! Notice that all these long winds keep complaining about fans like you succinctly pointing out the obvious?!
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CU Medallion [55306]
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Re: no excuses...
Sep 8, 2021, 10:33 AM
[ in reply to no excuses... ] |
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Jeff Scott made the call for the play that beat Bama for the Natty in 2016!!!
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Orange Blooded [3512]
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Re: I posted this on an FSU board.
Sep 7, 2021, 8:47 AM
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well said,Brett -- please forward this note straight to Dabo Swinney's desk -- and Tony Elliott's desk
GO TIGERS !!!
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Hall of Famer [22215]
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Re: I posted this on an FSU board.
Sep 7, 2021, 8:53 AM
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There is no doubt in my mind that the meeting was held. The words may have been different, but the sentiment was the same. ??
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All-In [48128]
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Re: I posted this on an FSU board.
Sep 7, 2021, 9:51 AM
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Thank you Bret. I tried to state your points in another thread yesterday and failed miserably. So thank you for making it sensible and readable. !
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CU Medallion [51981]
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110%er [9089]
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Re: I posted this on an FSU board.
Sep 7, 2021, 9:01 AM
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From what I've heard and read since Sat night, and it makes sense, is that while this isn't the first year we've had an average-at-beset OLine, it is the first year we haven't had a very mobile quarterback. That creates a lot of problems. DJ looked like he had cement in his shoes. He may not be the runner that DW or TL was, but he's a big dude and can make the QB run or roll-out be respected, which can help open things up a bit and take some pressure off the line.
I think you're right in that the job of the OC is not to make every position group be perfect, but to make every position group make the best of what talents and skills it has, and for the other position groups to find ways to make up the slack that others inevitably lack. I didn't really see much of any of that Sat night.
We have a lot of key guys to replace in key positions. That can take some time - some trial and error. I did see some progress in that in the 4th quarter Sat, and hopefully that progress will continue. We didn't get where we are because we have dumb-arse coaches. They'll get it figured out. We have plenty of more games left.
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Lot o points [155651]
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Good post. Many of us have noticed those same
Sep 7, 2021, 9:04 AM
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Two weaknesses for a few years now….even in wins against inferior opponents, our player calling was head-scratching at best.
Much like it took the WV game debacle for the stragglers to finally call for Kevin Steele’s head, so it goes with Tony Elliott and this starkly bad offensive performance on Saturday. It’s definitely not a reaction though borne from a single game.
If Elliott knew how to scheme and manage the game to augment our weaknesses, he would have a long time ago.
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110%er [6321]
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Re: I posted this on an FSU board.
Sep 7, 2021, 9:06 AM
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It's a combination of problems, not just the OL.
I still maintain that our lack of diversity at WR is the major issue. When we need someone to get immediate separation on a quick out or slant from the slot, we don't have that guy. When we need someone to be a threat in the screen game, which is an extension of the run game, we don't have that guy.
It's hard to be creative when every WR you have on the field is the same. This was the problem at the beginning of 2019. We had just won the natty 44-16. And we were bringing everyone back on offense. So we assumed our offense would be unstoppable. Amari tore his ACL in the spring and we ended up starting Tee, Ross, and Overton. It didn't work. None of those WRs are effective in the screen game. None of them are able to create immediate separation with route running and lateral quickness. And we have the same problem now.
The only difference, Amari was able to come back from his ACL injury. Troy Stellato is the only true slot WR that we have but he is a true freshman. And he wasn't even listed on the latest depth chart. Will Swinney is ahead of him, which is infuriating.
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Legend [19887]
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Re: I posted this on an FSU board.
Sep 7, 2021, 9:11 AM
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Well stated.
That's about the way it should go.
GO TIGERS!!!
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All-In [32184]
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Re: I posted this on an FSU board.
Sep 7, 2021, 9:16 AM
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Two quotes come to my mind. One is a standard line coaches use all the time when they are game planning. The other is from Bobby, that Mark Richt used at the funeral.
1. "It's not about what we (coaches) know, it's about what they "players) know."
It's been my suspicion for quite some time that offensive struggles and the lack of variety in play-calling is related to this quote. Perhaps the offense is limited because, as a whole, the offense has not been able to execute on a consistent basis when they have opened up the playbook in practice.
When Elliott and Jeff Scott took over and scaled back the offense, mistakes went down, but the downside is that defenses have less to account for.
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Commissioner [945]
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Re: I posted this on an FSU board.
Sep 7, 2021, 9:45 AM
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It really looked like we had about half a dozen plays we ran over and over. Never did any roll outs to move the pocket so DJ just was a sitting duck. And he got rattled.
I agree we need to find a real slot receiver even if it's playing a freshman or moving Shipley. Someone needs to be able to get open on third and 4 and be able to make a catch.
Also, if your RT was solid at RT last year why move him. You just make yourself two problems.
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110%er [6858]
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DUMB POST, JUST LIKE THE ONE THE DOG FAN POSTED
Sep 7, 2021, 9:48 AM
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This isnt about one #### game. Its about years of unimaginative, vanilla, predictable scheme and play calling, no adjustments, along with abhorrent OL play. We have simply out talented other teams for years now, mostly because this league is an unmitigated disaster. But you have idiots that stumble in here and say, derrr one game and you want to fire coaches, terrible fans derrr... GTFOOH. The UGA game was a culmination of a building issue. The difference was, we didnt have a generational QB and one of the best RB's in the history of the league to hide all the short comings. I honestly cant help anyone that is too ignorant to understand any of this, not really my issue. But Clemson will not sniff another natty until both the OC and OL issues are corrected, and that will not get done with out some staff shake-ups.
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Legend [16207]
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It's UGAy's fault
Sep 7, 2021, 10:07 AM
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Especially when we find out later half our team has Covid due to dawg Covid superspreaders were allowed to play.
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CU Guru [1551]
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This has been a problem since 2019 season
Sep 7, 2021, 10:28 AM
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And its why we're calling for a new direction at OC. If Tony doesn't know the OL is the weak link and isn't scheming around it then what in the world is he doing? Watching some of these other inferior teams like Ole Miss and how creative their play calling is- it is hard to watch the talent on this offense going to waste for the third year in a row. It could have recruiting repercussions down the line. I can almost guarantee that our 3 points vs UGA will be the lowest P5 team score against them for the remainder of the season. That's how bad this offense has gotten.
The biggest shame is Tony had all off season to change the scheme and he picked up right where he left off after the 2020 blowout loss. It's almost as if there was no off season.
Between the games with NC State, BC, and FSU, I just don't see this offense making it through the ACC schedule unscathed unless something changes. The Defense can't have their best game of the year every week to bail out the offense.
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Orange Blooded [2140]
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Re: This has been a problem since 2019 season
Sep 7, 2021, 9:55 PM
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Something changes like we don't play another outstanding dline like ugas? Or we get our running game going? I just don't see the whole sky is falling thing. Offense was not good. We need to fix it. But the fixes are doable.
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CU Medallion [64519]
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The OL has been an ongoing problem...
Sep 7, 2021, 10:33 AM
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and that can be attributed, at least to a certain extent, to both recruiting and coaching. In either case, something has to change.
That said, the play calling on Saturday contributed to the problem. The OC has to put the QB in a position to be successful and TE certainly didn't always do that.
As lousy as the offense played, Clemson still had an opportunity to win the game or at least take the game to OT.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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correct me if I'm wrong, but we have more 4 star OLs
Sep 7, 2021, 10:57 AM
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than we've ever had on this team.
I dont think recruiting is the problem.
Most likely coaching.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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Legend [17522]
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Re: correct me if I'm wrong, but we have more 4 star OLs
Sep 7, 2021, 1:25 PM
[ in reply to correct me if I'm wrong, but we have more 4 star OLs ] |
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Yep. Most are young and do not play. Bock, our lowest game-rated "passionate" lineman, plays and is complimented by T. Elliott post-UGA-game for his passion.
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All-TigerNet [10614]
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Re: I posted this on an FSU board.
Sep 7, 2021, 10:41 AM
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Brett .... you post reminds me of two things ....... the first few years of Tommy Bowden here with Rich Rod as our offensive coordinator. We did not have much offensive talent, but Rich devised a way to move the chains. The second was Rick Barnes first year when he had nobody with much basketball skills. He devised a way to play tough, frustrate our opponents, and keep us competitive. Coaching does make a difference.
I guarantee you that no coach will say that we are complacent, but complacency is something that creeps in without you knowing it. As hard as you try and say all of the right things, sometimes it just creeps in. That may not be the case here, but there could be a tad of it.
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Walk-On [106]
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Re: I posted this on an FSU board.
Sep 7, 2021, 11:02 AM
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Great stuff.
However, some of the things said after the game lead me to believe Dabo is just as much at fault. Elliot was hesitant to take full blame. Dabo made the comment that he was the on field guy now and Elliot is the in box guy. “We kinda work it together.” The big question is how much is Dabo meddling? I believe since Coach Scott departed, Dabo has been much more involved. That doesn’t seem to be a good thing. We have no offensive identity, currently.
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Orange Blooded [3950]
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Re: I posted this on an FSU board.
Sep 7, 2021, 1:18 PM
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1. Both Offenses got “Out classed” by the opposing defense. GA just had a better OL. People need to stop talking like the score was 28-3 instead of 10-3.
But yes Oline is bad and it’s our offensive coordinators job to scheme around our deficiencies.
But as I the other day. There was no one unit, player, or coach at fault. There were multiple factors.
1. Coaches needed to try and help DJ out once they realized the OL wasn’t going to going to give him time.
2. Oline was horrible and not sure how much better they will get. Tate will get better because he’s a true frosh and needs time. Putnum (spelling may be wrong) has proven to be a weak link. I don’t know how we fix it unless Pennington ends up passing him. Dabo said he’s had a great camp. I think the tackles were just out matched. I think their fine but that GA line is just nasty.
3. Missed assignments. Heard Dabo’s interview today and he broke down a lot of critical plays where players just did the wrong thing that was within their control.
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CU Guru [1418]
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The score could have easily been 17-3 or 13-3 if Ga. felt like scoring at the end.
Sep 8, 2021, 8:15 PM
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The game wasn’t as close as the score appears. It felt more like 28-3 than 10-3.
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Hall of Famer [22215]
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Re: I posted this on an FSU board.
Sep 7, 2021, 4:15 PM
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Thanks to all who replied. I appreciate the discussion.
After making my original post, I read several quotes from Dabo and Elliott after they had reviewed the game tape (and obviously talked to each other).
Looking at Elliott's comments about play calling and abandoning the run and other stuff, there is no doubt in my mind:
Dabo and Tony had a long discussion as they broke down the film.
They were harder on themselves than any fan would ever be.
Tony knows that Dabo is holding him accountable for the offense.
Tony knows that HE is the primary person responsible for fixing the offensive problems.
They may have had discussions about the OL coach, the WR coach, the QB coach or whomever. But, the bottom line is Tony was told (implicitly, if not explicitly). "Tony, it's your job to fix it. Let me know what I can do to help you fix it. But, it is YOUR job to fix it."
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Orange Blooded [4973]
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Re: I posted this on an FSU board.
Sep 7, 2021, 5:02 PM
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If I was an OC or position coach and had the head coach butting in too much, I'd say hold on coach, let me show you something, then call the play I want. If it works out good, If not then I'd try it his way the next time the situation came around. If it works then, good, if not come up with something else until we get it right. I personally feel the more a coach meddles in game then the less he believes in his staff.
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Freshman [8]
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Re: I posted this on an FSU board.
Sep 8, 2021, 8:54 AM
[ in reply to Re: I posted this on an FSU board. ] |
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bretfsu® Dawgs center and guard were out, as well as both TE's and 2 freshmen and a walk-on completed our receiving corps. clemmy gave up 7 sacks and gained 72 inches rushing but the UGA OL we patched together reminded you of the FSU crap-show CFB has been laughing at for the past 7 years? You don't do football much do you Son? Where was that tiger defense when they needed a stop? Our makshift OL was doing their job blocking, our RBs were running it down their D's throat, bowling over their DBs and 3 first downs were achieved when we needed to ice the game. Its called resilience Bud...............you should know that, Notre Dame just showed you a big dose of it.
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All-TigerNet [10803]
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Re: I posted this on an FSU board.
Sep 7, 2021, 6:17 PM
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This says it in a bit more gentle way than me. For $2M a year, T.E. needs to figure it out and fix it.
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110%er [6858]
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The TE raise/extension feels eerily like the TB one
Sep 7, 2021, 6:47 PM
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Completely unwarranted and immediately followed by disaster.
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CU Medallion [55306]
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Re: I posted this on an FSU board.
Sep 8, 2021, 10:25 AM
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You are right about that conversation that Dabo had with Tony, and I'm going to assume that Dabo wasn't that pat Tony on the back HC that Tony has known since becoming the OC. Dabo is a smart man, and he knows that people aren't just talking about the job that Tony is doing with our offense, they are talking about him standing by and allowing it to happen, and if he can't trust Tony to do the job that he has trusted Tony to do, he will have to replace if he wants to keep his job. Clemson fans and alumni won't sit quietly and watch what Dabo has built go away without pounding the administration with E-mails and phone calls demanding that Dabo make a change with the OC.
Like someone stated on here, our offense hasn't been the same since Jeff Scott left, and a lot of us thought that the wrong OC was leaving when Jeff announced he was leaving. I know that I did, I thought that, and I've also thought that Jeff left bc there was to many different spoon in the stirring in the same Pot. Maybe he didn't feel that way, but that is what I feel was the #1 reason that Jeff left. Something happen besides Jeff wanting to go back to Florida to be HC at USF bc, he knew that his decision was going to cause his dad to pull up along with him, and they both had it made at Clemson, a place they both loved along with their families!!!
BV left Oklahoma, a place that he loved dearly, and he left bc their were to many spoon stirring in the same pot there. CO Coordinator just isn't a good thing in college FB, there just isn't room for two spoons in the same pot when people are expecting something really good to come from the pot!!!!
Message was edited by: allinallorangeallthetime52®
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