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All-In [44026]
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Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 3:13 PM
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I read a post here which said that the talent level for Clemson and Tennessee is equal. Is it?
According to 247Sports, here are the recruiting rankings the last few years:
2018: Clemson #7, Tennessee #21
2019: Clemson #10, Tennessee #13
2020: Clemson #3, Tennessee #11
2021: Clemson #5, Tennessee #22
2022: Clemson #10, Tennessee #17
Average: Clemson #7, Tennessee #17
In addition, since 2018, Clemson has signed 16 five star players and 54 four star players, while Tennessee has signed 2 five star players and 45 four star players.
I didn’t look to see the star rankings of the players who played last night for both teams, but based on these recruiting rankings it’s safe to say that we were the more talented team.
And we lost by 17 points.
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Orange Blooded [2523]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 3:15 PM
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It's almost like there's a coaching deficiency...
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All-In [44026]
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You seem to have forgotten that Dabo has won two national championships
Dec 31, 2022, 3:19 PM
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and he hand picked these coaches for their football minds and their integrity.
We have the finest coaching staff in college football!
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Orange Blooded [2217]
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so u don't think we got out coached last night***
Dec 31, 2022, 5:03 PM
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All-In [44026]
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I absolutely do, I was being sarcastic.***
Dec 31, 2022, 10:27 PM
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110%er [5482]
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Orange Blooded [3568]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 3:15 PM
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Who do you want or think will fix the problem? I never see you offer viable solutions. Only suggest firing the coaching staff. I'd love to hear your answer on this. The only coach that was a massive step back so far has been Goodwin from what I've seen.
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All-In [44026]
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I haven’t called for anyone to be fired.
Dec 31, 2022, 3:27 PM
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That’s Dabo’s decision.
But I’ve been saying all along that Dabo’s hires the last few years have been poor for the most part.
The only good hire I believe he’s made the last few years is Nick Eason.
Streeter, Goodwin, Conn, Spiller, Grisham, Austin, and Richardson are all unqualified for their current roles.
That coaching inexperience has far reaching effects, potentially having a negative impact on recruiting, skill development, and game planning. Their collective
ability to anticipate problems and correct those problems is almost certainly at a deficit compared to more experienced and qualified coaches.
The maddening thing is that it didn’t need to be this way. Dabo could’ve hired anyone he wanted to. He wasn’t limited by what the university would approve in the football budget. Recruiting top quality coaching talent to Clemson wouldn’t be hard. Yet Dabo went the lazy route and hired or promoted the coaches he did.
I don’t know what you’re asking me to propose in terms of solutions. We clearly have good talent, it just isn’t being developed well or put in a position to succeed. The only two options are to hope that these coaches eventually develop into outstanding coaches, or replace them with more qualified ones.
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Orange Blooded [3568]
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Re: I haven’t called for anyone to be fired.
Dec 31, 2022, 3:50 PM
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Who are your candidates is what I'm asking. Who would you have liked that was available or is available.
I only disagree with your assessment of Austin until injuries on the OL the OL was technically the best I've seen in a long time. DJ would get 5 seconds for spells, that's insane. I do question the S&C for the OL and DL getting washed out and the consistent poor combine showing. I do like Eason as well. Think Streeter can be good but he's got alot of growing to do as well, last night reminded me of the Chad Morris Era in a bad way. Forcing the pass in the redzone or on the opponents side of the field was very much like Morris's bad side.
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All-In [44026]
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I trusted Dabo to find those top coordinators so I didn’t make my own list.
Dec 31, 2022, 4:03 PM
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But I would have liked to see him start by doing a detailed search of the college and pro ranks. Who has been successful? Where have their units ranked statistically?
Earlier this year, I posted a comparison between our coordinators and the coordinators for Georgia, Alabama, and Ohio State. Theirs were coordinators or head coaches at the college or pro level. Ours are significantly less qualified.
I would bet that there are many teams in the ACC with more qualified coordinators than we have. I haven’t looked, but I would bet that there are very few teams with coordinators who had never been a coordinator previously.
What we are starting to see is teams with less talent outplaying us, and I believe it’s because they have better coaching.
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Legend [18786]
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Great series of posts.
Dec 31, 2022, 10:28 PM
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How can anyone argue with what you said is beyond me especially after seeing the results.
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CU Guru [1321]
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Orange Blooded [2371]
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Coaching deficiency
Dec 31, 2022, 3:28 PM
[ in reply to Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee ] |
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So, you think Goodwin was a "massive step back." How do you classify Streeter? I'm at a loss for words to come up with a moniker for him if "massive step back" is applied to Goodwin. I'll hang up and listen for your answer. Thanks in advance.
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Orange Blooded [3568]
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Re: Coaching deficiency
Dec 31, 2022, 9:09 PM
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My opinion is there's not a single DC in the country that could have replaced BV and Goodwin jumped right into hot water as a DC without ever being a position coach at any level.
Streeter is an upgrade over Tony Elliot and the fact he squeezed blood out of a turnip with his QB play all year is my evidence for that. And Streeter has been an OC and did a good job in the past.
Goodwin bend but don't break mentality this past year leaves alot to be desired imo, I'm not sold on him but I won't say he can't improve.
The fact is Dabo is hoping to keep his staff together as long as possible and not have a revolving door, I get the frustrations of fellow fans, but I can see his point with valuing continuity. Next year will be the tell tale and I do believe he will make changes if there's further regression on defense. I don't think the offense could get much worse than it was this year. Goodwin is on a shorter leash bc he had every tool in his arsenal and dropped a dud.
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CU Guru [1685]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 3:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee ] |
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Goodwin did OK, much better than Conn, Reed, Austin, Grisham and Spiller. We have great talent at running back, can't see them coached up very much - and let's not forget Streeter - geez!
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Orange Blooded [3568]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 9:15 PM
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Conn and Goodwin are a combo, both were bad considering what they had.
Mike Reed dealt with an insane amount of injuries this year and you saw his young guys steady improve. Wiggins comes to mind and pride definitely needed a redshirt year but he had flashes.
Austin is recruiting well and the OL played with injuries the back half of the season, depth was not there yet and it showed. Plus Caldwell flat out missed on some of these guys.
Spiller, I just don't understand the hate. His position group has been the only bright spot the last 2 years. Is recruiting the hang up?
Grisham, yea I agree with you.
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CU Guru [1344]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 3:40 PM
[ in reply to Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee ] |
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The answer is experimental coordinators and develop the next man up. To promote to Coordinator with no experience is suicide at this level. With experience we were much better against elite competition. The inexperienced coordinators is being used against is in recruiting also.
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Orange Blooded [2406]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 9:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee ] |
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You want an answer? Lets start with strength and conditioning. Our guys are getting pushed around on both sides of the LOS. Second lets see what new blood could do. Bring in a true DC that can motivate and put some meanness into the defense. Then lets combine two of the positional coaches like Defensive tackles and ends so ww can bring in a true special teams coach instead of giving to one of the coaches that has zero knowledge of special teams. How's that for a start?
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110%er [6361]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 3:15 PM
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The talent is probably equal because this doesn’t factor the portal.
Both teams lose players to the portal every year. But only one team brings in portal players.
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Orange Blooded [3615]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 3:21 PM
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Also, maybe they were playing more upperclassmen?
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All-In [44026]
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I was just providing a starting point.
Dec 31, 2022, 3:29 PM
[ in reply to Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee ] |
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Our portal addition consists only of five star QB Hunter Johnson.
I know Tennessee has added some good players from the portal, but I can’t imagine it is enough to equal our talent level.
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Orange Blooded [3615]
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Re: I was just providing a starting point.
Dec 31, 2022, 3:40 PM
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If they were stronger, with more experience, and more mature, then they have an advantage. It's kind of like how Chase Hunter and Hunter Tyson have matured in hoops. Talent is great, but it's hard to be as physical without the strength and maturity. There were times when we had 5 true frosh on the field when we were on office. Even on D, we had to true frosh dbs get taken advantage of for 2tds.
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Orange Blooded [3615]
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Re: I was just providing a starting point.
Dec 31, 2022, 3:42 PM
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on offense...not on office.
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110%er [6075]
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They actually use the portal to get better...***
Dec 31, 2022, 3:16 PM
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Orange Blooded [4304]
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WE ARE YOUNG. That was our first big SEC game
Dec 31, 2022, 3:19 PM
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it's hard. they play fast and experienced.
Clemson could have scored 50+ points. it'll click next season.
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All-In [44026]
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Why are we so young?
Dec 31, 2022, 3:31 PM
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I thought our coaches were all about playing a lot of players to build quality depth.
Where are our experienced players?
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Orange Blooded [3615]
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Re: Why are we so young?
Dec 31, 2022, 3:59 PM
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It probably would have helped had BV and Elliot had not taken off as far as the quality depth. Those were some high ranking players that changed their commitments.
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110%er [8530]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 3:23 PM
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The game is played on the field, not in the recruiting rankings. We beat Tennessee up and down the field on both sides of the ball but just could not get in the endzone or make field goals.
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All-In [44026]
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So you’re saying that we aren’t as well coached?***
Dec 31, 2022, 3:34 PM
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: So you’re saying that we aren’t as well coached?***
Dec 31, 2022, 3:47 PM
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Play calling was atrocious in the red zone yes and we got torched in the secondary. Neither of those things are new developments.
Dabo needs to go out and hire quality coordinators like he did with Venables.
I’m starting to wonder if his ego is getting in the way. Like he wants to be the coach that just hires from within and just keeps winning.
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110%er [6280]
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Re: So you’re saying that we aren’t as well coached?***
Dec 31, 2022, 5:03 PM
[ in reply to So you’re saying that we aren’t as well coached?*** ] |
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We had a true freshman at qb while they had a much more experienced qb. That had a lot to do with some things. I believe we had some bad decisions by the coaching staff certainly but if we get those 4th down conversions or if we make some field goals the game could have been much different.
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110%er [6280]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 5:00 PM
[ in reply to Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee ] |
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Yessir. They executed when they needed to and we didn't. People are trying to make this bigger than it is imo. We are fine. I'm just thankful Dabo isn't so pathetic and doesn't panic when things don't always go our way.
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Heisman Winner [139901]
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That explains why we were better in every metric…
Dec 31, 2022, 3:24 PM
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save score.
Go Tigers!
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All-In [44026]
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We lost by 17 points.
Dec 31, 2022, 3:33 PM
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But you’re welcome to hang your hat on winning the statistical battle if you like.
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All-In [40767]
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The statistics tell us that
Dec 31, 2022, 3:42 PM
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you and many others are overreacting. You should stick to giving crappy reasons for keeping Brad Brownell for 13 years.
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Heisman Winner [139901]
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We are still talking about coordinators not being…
Dec 31, 2022, 8:35 PM
[ in reply to We lost by 17 points. ] |
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qualified, correct? Maybe it will help everyone if you provide the metrics you would like us to use when making this decision, since it’s not statistics. I really hope you go with bowl game final score.
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Orange Blooded [2523]
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110%er [6280]
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Re: That explains why we were better in every metric…
Dec 31, 2022, 5:08 PM
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I don't think he is bragging. People are acting like we got destroyed by a bad team and that our run is over. We lost a close game against a top 6 team. It got stretched out towards the end but we missed many scoring opportunities that could have changed the game.
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CU Guru [1418]
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Re: That explains why we were better in every metric…
Dec 31, 2022, 5:55 PM
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Bear in mind, they were missing their 2 best players.
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110%er [6280]
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Re: That explains why we were better in every metric…
Dec 31, 2022, 6:36 PM
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Yes and we were missing our best LB and starting a true freshman at qb. They were still a very good team last night.
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Legend [17572]
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Our best LB may be 2nd team AA or Barrett Carter***
Dec 31, 2022, 9:01 PM
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110%er [6280]
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Re: Our best LB may be 2nd team AA or Barrett Carter***
Dec 31, 2022, 9:56 PM
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Simpson is our best lb imo but deff debatable.
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Orange Blooded [2638]
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It has already been said but I was
Dec 31, 2022, 3:25 PM
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surprised at their size and strength. They looked much more physical and played mean. They definitely came to play.
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All-Pro [657]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 3:26 PM
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I thought clemson was 5th and Tennessee was 19th?
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110%er [5373]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 3:32 PM
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100% a coaching issue. Just like our basketball program.
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All-In [44026]
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Basketball has won 7 of its last 8 games
Dec 31, 2022, 3:38 PM
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and is 3-0 in ACC play.
In contrast to our football team, our basketball team is well coached.
It would be great to have a well coached football again. I remember those days, they were fun.
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Legend [16935]
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Re: Basketball has won 7 of its last 8 games
Dec 31, 2022, 3:41 PM
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???
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All-In [40767]
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If the last 13 years has taught us anything it’s that
Dec 31, 2022, 3:44 PM
[ in reply to Basketball has won 7 of its last 8 games ] |
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coaching is not the reason why the basketball team is winning at this present moment in time.
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110%er [6280]
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Re: Basketball has won 7 of its last 8 games
Dec 31, 2022, 5:05 PM
[ in reply to Basketball has won 7 of its last 8 games ] |
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I'm so proud of our basketball team but where was the coaching when a crap SC team beat us? Or when we got stomped by Loyola? Mayne sometimes things don't go your way or you have an off night. Maybe...
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Basketball has won 7 of its last 8 games
Dec 31, 2022, 5:07 PM
[ in reply to Basketball has won 7 of its last 8 games ] |
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Our basketball results are the equivalent of our football team having lost to Furman but flexing when started 1-0 in conference play. We have two terrible losses that will be an albatross all year. You usually love some KenPom stats. What do the say about our defense? Imagine if we play a team with a pulse.
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Orange Blooded [2702]
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Those rankings don't mean Shyatt, JK
Dec 31, 2022, 3:41 PM
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You cannot equate "talent" to recruiting website rankings. I see this fallacy almost daily on this board. Recruiting is a very, VERY imprecise science when it comes to assigning "stars". Look no farther than DJU, the consensus #1 player in his class coming out of high school. Not very accurate in hindsight, is it? Maybe DJU is an outlier...What about Justyn Ross? Or Joe Ngata? Or Frank Ladson? or Taisun Phommachahn? Or Lyn-J Dixon? All 4-5 star recruits. I think it's fair to say they have all under-performed their recruiting rating.
You'll get a much better feel for overall talent by waiting a few years and seeing how many of these players go pro. And maybe even seeing how many of those last more than 3 years in the NFL. I posit that our talent level is well below where it was in 2018, about the last time the roster was elite at almost all positions through the 2-deep.
Since you're going to ask, yes, I would rather have the #1 recruiting class over say a #20 class. But that's given a binary choice of the two. Really, I'd rather leave the player evaluation for the coaches and let the pundits assign rankings. In the end, it really just comes down to wins and losses, doesn't it? As they say, nobody awards you a national championship for being #1 at recruiting.
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All-In [44026]
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Of course recruiting rankings aren’t perfect.
Dec 31, 2022, 3:55 PM
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But there is typically a fairly direct correlation between recruiting rankings and on field success. Yes there are occasionally outliers, but the teams who recruit best are the ones who usually win the most.
Since you’re arguing that we aren’t as talented as our recruiting rankings would suggest, why do you think that is the case?
Are we not identifying talent like we used to? Or, are we perhaps not developing that talent like we used to?
I think it’s the latter.
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110%er [6280]
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Re: Of course recruiting rankings aren’t perfect.
Dec 31, 2022, 5:10 PM
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Or perhaps we are just as good but we won national championships with 2 of the best college qbs of all time.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Those rankings don't mean Shyatt, JK
Dec 31, 2022, 5:09 PM
[ in reply to Those rankings don't mean Shyatt, JK ] |
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And teams are now heavily populated by players who were in high school during covid. A lot of whom played no football or half seasons and whose rankings are based on freshman and sophomore stats. But if we’d only held a “exhaustive, national search” for our coordinators everything would be fine.
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Orange Blooded [3559]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 3:43 PM
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I don’t pay much attention to star ratings, but anyone who was paying attention could see we were out playing them. We were moving the ball, just couldn’t finish drives. That goes back to playcalling down the stretch
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Orange Blooded [4773]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 3:44 PM
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Doing less with more has become our new motto
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All-TigerNet [12580]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 3:50 PM
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I would have preferred that Dabo conducted a nationwide search for OC and DC for sure and if after doing so he felt Streeter and Goodwin were the best choices, so be it.
He didn’t do that and we’ll see how things unfold.
However, it seems that virtually everything you post re: football is critical and virtually nothing you post re: basketball is critical but always an excuse.
Is Loyola of Chicago’s talent 20 points better than Clemson’s? If not,is Loyola’s coaching superior to Brownell and company?
I do question the coaching hires of Dabo and why Klubnik wasn’t utilized more earlier in the season. However, Dabo has some significant equity with a ton of ACC championships, 4 NC game appearances with 2 wins.
You stay on Dabo’s ### while offering up a constant defense of Brownell who has what equity after 12+ years?
It’s ok to question the football program, but the constant negativity towards football while apologizing for basketball for years gets old.
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110%er [6280]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 4:57 PM
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People are saying we looked young and small tho and that we got pushed around at both LOS. So are we not more talented or are we?
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Orange Blooded [2025]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 5:06 PM
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Dabo built this ship, he intentionally built this coaching staff with inside personnel that he could control and wouldn’t question his decision making or authority.
Dabo is not going to change. He will sink with this ship before hiring more skilled and experienced outside coaching talent.
Nikki Eason was a great hire, probably the best hire he’s made since Brent Venables. But I don’t see him continuing on that path of hiring experienced outside talent. I hope I’m wrong, because if he sticks with what he has been doing, we will be overtaken by FSU quickly and will not have a shot at the college football championship playoff.
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CU Guru [1040]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 5:59 PM
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You could make the reverse argument vs. Alabama in 2016 and 2018.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: Talent comparison: Clemson vs. Tennessee
Dec 31, 2022, 9:03 PM
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With NIL, that will reverse quickly. We will be 25 and Tn 7.
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