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Lot o points [155578]
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Speaking as apolitically as possible on this, because I
Aug 15, 2021, 11:17 AM
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don't believe it to be an appropriate political football topic, it makes me sad to think that a good portion of the 2300+ US troops killed in Afghanistan since 2001 would be alive and with families today if we had never engaged in this pointless war.
Additionally, and far less significantly, every man, woman, and child in the country could get a check for $267 instead of the $88B we spent to train the Afgan "fighting forces", the most ineffective since the French in WW2.
A brief brush-up on history, or even a viewing of Rambo III would have shown that this was the only logical way this ended.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Speaking as apolitically as possible on this, because I
Aug 15, 2021, 11:24 AM
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Now you have me in the mood for some Rambo. That may be my Sunday watching, today. Thanks.
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Oculus Spirit [82970]
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Will we learn fron it? After 911, 99% of Congress and close
Aug 15, 2021, 11:32 AM
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to that number of the U.S. public supported going into Afghanstan to find those responsible. I know I did. It made me feel better. It made the country feel better.
In the future, will we have people stand up and go against the grain in these revenge type scenarios?
I'm doubtful.
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Heisman Winner [111290]
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Barabara Lee was the only one against it***
Aug 15, 2021, 11:42 AM
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Lot o points [155578]
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I don’t know, and if I’m honest with myself I imagine
Aug 15, 2021, 12:18 PM
[ in reply to Will we learn fron it? After 911, 99% of Congress and close ] |
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I felt the same way post-9/11. I remember Ron Paul getting mocked pretty heavily over the years for his non-interventionist positions, and I did some of that mocking myself. Probably didn’t get around to understanding the the logic behind the mindset until my 40’s.
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CU Medallion [55641]
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Amen, up to a point. Remember, OBL was hiding in that area.
Aug 15, 2021, 11:39 AM
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And by all accounts when we first went into that area mostly with special forces and intelligence officers - not just AFG but also Pakistan and the other surrounding areas, our work was masterful. It was the most effective intervention ever by a western power in AFG.
The NEEDLESS war was actually in Iraq. Dubya and his Band of Idiots purposefully destabilized that region when ol' "Sad-im" had kept things nice and stable. THAT was pointless.
Once we escalated in AFG, that's when it turned bad. Yes, we eventually got OBL, but the Taliban was never eradicated and ISIS is back on the move in the area between Syria and Baghdad.
Overall, YES, I lament the losses of all Americans in the Global War on Terror.
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Legend [16213]
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Re: Amen, up to a point. Remember, OBL was hiding in that area.
Aug 15, 2021, 12:15 PM
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I would suspect that the Taliban of today would also understand how powerful our military is when fully engaged and how much pure havoc we could cause were things to sour at this late hour and they overplay their hand.
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Orange Blooded [2692]
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It's a noble sentiment......
Aug 15, 2021, 11:41 AM
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but I doubt anyone gave this ideal much thought back in October 2001 when this whole affair began.
We were totally dominated by the blood-thirst back then and were ready to go kick some teeth in to exact some vengeance for Todd Beamer.
The old saying after 9/11 was "Never Forget".
Unfortunately, we always seem to forget the actual cost to this kind of escapade.
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Hall of Famer [20518]
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Re: Speaking as apolitically as possible on this, because I
Aug 15, 2021, 12:18 PM
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The hard part would have been: "okay, we got Bin Laden...good luck, guys!"
Instead we lingered. And lingered. And lingered some more.
I dunno. In the name of...I dunno. Progress? Freedom? Democracy? The second we got Bin Laden, George W. Bush's clearly stated mission of "however long it takes" was complete...and Obama should have been out the door.
Bin Laden died May 2, 2011. More than ten years ago.
What have we been doing there ever since?
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Legend [16213]
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Re: Speaking as apolitically as possible on this, because I
Aug 15, 2021, 12:21 PM
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Without Afghanistan we wouldn't have the Daniel Rodriguez story and its positive impact on Dabo and Tiger Nation. So there's that.
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Lot o points [155578]
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Lulz. Daniel Rodriguez was God’s gift to Clemson, and
Aug 15, 2021, 12:23 PM
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If you don’t believe me, just ask him.
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Heisman Winner [119553]
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FREEDOM’s just another word for Nothing Left to Loose….***
Aug 15, 2021, 12:19 PM
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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We're spending our way into freedom.***
Aug 15, 2021, 3:41 PM
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Oculus Spirit [78823]
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All-In [34518]
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I wonder if the Chairman of the Joints Chiefs
Aug 15, 2021, 1:04 PM
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is still advising the president (whenever he's awake) the greatest threat to America is climate change...
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CU Medallion [55641]
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Hall of Famer [24440]
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The right makes that same mistake over and over,
Aug 15, 2021, 3:46 PM
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thinking they can do it better this time - not just here but everywhere - and the left makes its socialist agenda mistake over and over. Certain principles just cant be violated, but each generation thinks their utopia supersedes truth and history.
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All-In [31830]
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So you're Pres Bush after 9-11, what do you do?***
Aug 15, 2021, 11:40 PM
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Lot o points [155578]
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I keep it at the special forces/small teams level.
Aug 16, 2021, 7:47 AM
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The exact same groups that brought OBL down. There was zero need to establish the presence we did and engage in nation building in a place that doesn't care about the concept of "nation" by partnering with some incredibly corrupt people.
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Hall of Famer [20518]
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Re: I keep it at the special forces/small teams level.
Aug 16, 2021, 7:53 AM
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I never understood that and we kept propping them up...probably because no president seemed to want to own what's happening right now.
But they went down like paper tigers. It took the Taliban about 20 minutes to take the country the second we stopped holding them up and they had the men, the weapons, the training.
They just did not care.
If they don't care enough about their own freedom to fight for it, why the #$%^ should we? I'm sure there were some good individuals there and we should try to extract them but aside from that...eff 'em. If that country wants to be ruled by a bunch of goat-herding fundamentalist tribal warlords they're too chickensh!t to stand up to, fine.
They didn't have to be.
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Lot o points [155578]
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The real pisser about all this is that
Aug 16, 2021, 8:36 AM
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these corrupt, spineless Afghan "leaders" that we gave ridiculous wealth and power to, never missed a chance to throw sh#t at us at every opportunity. That POS that just fled the country talked crap left and right about us as occupiers and wanted us out. He got his wish and I wish like he!! that he hadn't made that plane out so he could see the true end result of his vision.
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Hall of Famer [20518]
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Re: The real pisser about all this is that
Aug 16, 2021, 8:53 AM
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I think that was also the problem, that we were backing the wrong ponies.
We backed some spineless, corrupt scumbags. And they double-dealt and self-dealt and p!ssed on their own people, building nothing, inspiring no one, riding our gravy train, until the whole house of cards collapse.
That's the problem with collaborators. They tend to be spineless two-timing weasels like that. Real leaders stand up to you...and that would have been inconvenient for us.
It's just basic psychological profiles. I have no idea why we keep ignoring those, and backing guys we know are bent and sociopathic and incapable of inspiring or feeling reciprocal loyalty. But the US of A has been doing that sh!t forever with the same crappy results.
You'd think we'd learn. But nope. Take one look outside at Kabul Airport. We. Are. Not. Learning.
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All-In [31830]
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I'm not an expert on this, but what do you say to the...
Aug 16, 2021, 8:21 AM
[ in reply to I keep it at the special forces/small teams level. ] |
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experts that made the case then (and now) that we would not have been able to run enough special forces operations without a sizeable presence in Afghanistan?
You mentioned the same groups that brought down OBL. Those forces trained and launched out of Afghanistan, right?
I haven't seen too many "experts" make the case that we would have waged the was on AQ like we needed to without a sizable presence in Afghanistan.
are you saying we could have had such a sizable presence, but not gotten involved in nation building? If so, we would have essentially left the Taliban in power (to the extent they were in many regions) while we were there?
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Lot o points [155578]
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Let's be clear here
Aug 16, 2021, 8:32 AM
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I'm making all of these observations with full benefit of hindsight, and if 20 year old memories serve me correctly (that's a gamble these days) I was fully on board with Bush's actions. This whole post/thread wasn't a veiled jab at Bush--he was in an unprecedented position with no great options.
I'm also not an expert military tactician. What I am saying is that Afghanistan, as a concept of a nation to it's people, has never, ever gotten past concept stage. Imagine the civil war if each state (Union and Confederate) had only cared about the goings-on inside that state's borders, and was indifferent to a larger Confederacy or US Govt---we'd still be fighting today.
There's zero historically or culturally that unifies Afghans. It's been that case forever, and it's why the idea of democratizing and building a cohesive government was the equivalent of throwing a burning match into the largest pile of money you've ever seen. It's also why the 350k Afgan troops we spent almost $90B training and arming to face off against 75k poorly equipped Taliban insurgents cut and ran at the first sign of conflict. If you don't believe in your country you dammm sure aren't willing to die for it.
Bush's fatal flaw here was falling into the old "The whole world yearns for freedom and they'll run with it if we just help" trap. Whatever Afghanistan was, it didn't need to be the democracy-proselytizing cluster-F it morphed into.
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All-In [31830]
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I can agree with most of that....
Aug 16, 2021, 8:55 AM
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part of me wonders though if Afghanistan had to be propped up to facilitate our presence there in order to fight AQ. I think most would agree that AQ, as it existed on 9-11, has largely been destroyed.
Could we have done that without the presence we had there and could we have had the presence there without being involved with the government?
I'm not at all suggesting everything was done well and worked according to plan and that we had to spend all of the money the way we did to have the success we had. But I'm just not seeing how we could have had the level of success we had in that region without the large presence in Afghanistan.
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Hall of Famer [24669]
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Hall of Famer [24669]
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All-In [42000]
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Re: So you're Pres Bush after 9-11, what do you do?***
Aug 16, 2021, 1:09 PM
[ in reply to So you're Pres Bush after 9-11, what do you do?*** ] |
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I think we still attack, but have a better, short-term exit strategy (nation building in Afghanistan is a proven historical failure) and divert ALL--every ####### one of the resources WASTED in Iraq (yeah, me smugly side-eyeing once again all the foaming at the mouth Iraq war lovers on this board back in the day)--into Afghanistan to really wipe out our true enemy.
Maybe that. We can throw a lot of stones at the Obama admin on this topic, too.
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Legend [15730]
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I read recently that the US military had estimated that the
Aug 16, 2021, 8:58 AM
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afghan government could crumble in as little as 90 days to 6 months. Ten days is unreal, but it almost sounded like we knew they would fold.
I am just shocked by it all. Shocked that a disgusting movement like the Taliban can not only continue to exist while we are there for decades, but to exist in such a state that they can effectively mobilize before the door closes on us leaving. Shocked that a government and military with superior weapons, numbers, training and backing...and whose people know what a miserable entity Taliban is...would do completely lack the will to defend itself. Or that we would not have trained them better.
I’m torn on this one. Initially I was so disheartened that we would be leaving these people to this fate. But again, after almost 20 years of fighting, supporting and spending, if this was all the could muster, I am not sure there was ever any hope that we could help that country. Very very sad.
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All-In [42000]
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We learned poorly from the history in that nation.
Aug 16, 2021, 1:10 PM
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We aren't the first to go in and try to fix it, then fail.
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All-In [42000]
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It's a bipartisan failure
Aug 16, 2021, 1:13 PM
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But a failure nonetheless. I don't really blame the Trump or Biden admins for Afghanistan, but this certainly hasn't been a good moment for the current admin.
I still believe we should have gone in as a response to 9/11, but we shouldn't have maintained what we did for the past 20 years.
You summed it up. Just what a sad waste of lives and money.
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