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CU Medallion [58367]
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Abortion question ....
May 8, 2022, 10:17 AM
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I heard a pro-choice advocate say that if Roe is overturned, women will have no bodily autonomy.
I think most agree that at some point during pregnancy, the fetus becomes a human being. Personally, I don't know if that's at conception, 10 weeks, or 6 months, and there will certainly be no concensus there. But the question is, whenever that is, once that point is reached, and the woman has another human being living inside of her, does she still have bodily autonomy? Or, is she morally bound to consider the human being inside of her with every decision she makes, thereby losing her bodily autonomy?
This lies at the very heart of the abortion debate, and in my eyes everything hinges on this question, yet this gets sidestepped and the debate always gets shifted to other arguments which avoid the fundamental, ultimately unavoidable question.
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Hall of Famer [24445]
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To me, whoever said that made an irrelevant comment.
May 8, 2022, 10:33 AM
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The only issue addressed in the court's recent draft is whether abortion is a constitutional vs legislative matter. That's it.
In the debate about whether it should be legal on demand, 'bodily autonomy' is valid, but weak. We do typically allow a person to do what he/she wants as long as no one else is affected. And there we've come full circle for the millionth time. The issue is whether the unborn person is a life, and that should be a legislative matter. Pro abortion people don't like the fact that most people think it is, at least to the degree that some restrictions seem appropriate, so they run to a higher power to get their way. We all want autocracy if it means we get what we want. But it never does.
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CU Medallion [58367]
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The whole "my body, my choice" argument is irrelevant and
May 8, 2022, 11:05 AM
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preposterous, if there is another human being to be considered. Whether or not there is another human being to be considered IS the whole question. There is no other question, no other debate. Everything else is a distraction, because IF there is another, separate human life inside of the woman, then the question becomes, does the woman, and the woman alone have the right to decide to terminate the life of that other totally innocent person.
If, however, a fetus is never a human being until it is born, then have at it, abort away.
It's really that simple. That's where the focus of the debate should be. Everything else is a dance and a dodge.
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Associate AD [838]
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It's a little more
May 8, 2022, 7:23 PM
[ in reply to To me, whoever said that made an irrelevant comment. ] |
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Roe v. Wade affirmed a right to privacy within the 10th amendment. That's the whole basis for the decision.
Alito is saying there is no fundamental right to privacy.
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Hall of Famer [24445]
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A little more is correct. Was not the main part of this.
May 8, 2022, 8:26 PM
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If it was the major part, a right to privacy means I can euthanize my memory compromised MIL. As long as I think she doesn't know or care what we're doing, you don't have a right to invade our privacy to know what we did. So there's your world.
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Associate AD [838]
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Just telling you what the argument was
May 8, 2022, 9:14 PM
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No need to get upset and soil yourself over it.
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All-TigerNet [11130]
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Happy Mother’s Day
May 8, 2022, 10:56 AM
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No one is pro-abortion, there are no cheerleaders/protesters at clinics holding signs and shouting, “kill that baby, kill that baby”. But the answer to your question is one of the main reasons it must remain legal. There are a thousand divergent opinions and nuances that can’t be legislated by our politicized court, that seems to have forgotten itself and it’s purpose in deference to a single destructive issue. The most direct answer to your question of body autonomy is to think how different the question would be if it were men that got pregnant. Don’t get lost in the hypothetical, we’re all equal…or are we?
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CU Medallion [58367]
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Then answer my question, which you danced all around.
May 8, 2022, 11:19 AM
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If, at some point during pregnancy, a fetus becomes a human life, does the mother and the mother alone have the right to kill that person?
It's a very simple question. Yes, no, or maybe. Elaborate as much as you'd like, but answer the question.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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If guys got pregnant, they could go to Lowe's, Home Depot
May 8, 2022, 11:41 AM
[ in reply to Happy Mother’s Day ] |
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Best Buy or Amazon.
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CU Guru [1314]
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Re: Happy Mother’s Day
May 8, 2022, 12:02 PM
[ in reply to Happy Mother’s Day ] |
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Your logic is beyond absurd!! No credibility at all. Shameful. But then again, you lefties don't give a shyt about a defenseless child; anything to finance a Dem Part! Politics over killing a child!
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Orange Blooded [3996]
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Re: Happy Mother’s Day
May 8, 2022, 5:38 PM
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You don't either. If you did, you would be railing against IVF clinics for the millions of "babies" they murder each year, but you guys are noticeably quiet on that. Why is that?
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110%er [7052]
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Re: People need to recognize object reality
May 8, 2022, 1:41 PM
[ in reply to Happy Mother’s Day ] |
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"... how different the question would be if it were men that got pregnant."
Here's my version: "... how different the question would be if it were all people who had an IQ of 140."
Not all human beings have the same inherent attributes as all of the other human beings.
This objective truth needs to be recognized and accepted; after acceptance the objective truth, the person can manage their situation to optimize life's possibilities for her / him.
Those who manage objective truths have an excellent chance at a productive and fulfilling life.
Those who choose to gnash their teeth and rail against objective truth's #### their lives away, finding limited 'solace' by associating with other deniers of objective truths.
Objective truth: All humans are deficient (in varying different [multiple] ways) compared to all other humans.
LeBron James is not as smart as Elon Musk. Maybe he wishes he were smart like E.Musk, but found something else productive to do with his life.
Elon Musk is not the athlete as LeBron James. Vice versa for E.Musk vis-a-vis L.James.
Objective truth:
A physically capable person who does not possess great intelligence and who has an 'excitable / unpleasant' personality can become an excellent tree surgeon, but not a receptionist.
A physically limited person who does not possess great intelligence but who has a mild-mannered, calm personality can be an excellent receptionist, but not a tree surgeon.
Objective truth: Women can master their ability to control pregnancy by taking responsibility for their behavior.
(1) Want to have sex but to not get pregnant? Take the pill; if that doesn't work for the woman in question, then use contraceptive devices (diaphragms & contraceptive creams).
(2) Unplanned sex (or rape) happens in which the woman was 'unprotected.' Take morning-after pill.
If all women followed these simple practices, then the vast majority of abortions would never take place.
Reasonable people can have fine lives if they deal with objective truths.
Just stop with the 'what if women weren't women' nonsense.
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All-In [40868]
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if you get pregnant
May 8, 2022, 5:04 PM
[ in reply to Happy Mother’s Day ] |
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and you don't want it, go down to the clinic and get that ####### sucked right out of you.
Life - if it will continue to grow into a human without you killing it, then it is life. If you have to kill it to stop it from growing then you are killing life.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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With over 32,000 rape victim pregnancies in the US each year
May 8, 2022, 11:04 AM
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it would seem a bit cruel for a woman to have her body violated by the rapist before there is a pregnancy and then have the state seize control of her body as soon as the rapist is done with it.
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CU Medallion [58367]
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They have control over my body and your body now.
May 8, 2022, 11:27 AM
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My fist is part of my body. The state says I can't use my fist (body) to smash your teeth down your throat. Thus the state is telling me what I can and can't do with my body. It prevents me from using my body in a way that directly harms other people.
If a fetus is a human being, then the state has every right to prevent her from harming that person, even if it is attached to her body.
Almost all legislation I have seen allow for abortions in cases of rape. I would certainly support that.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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The state can never force me or you to have a baby.
May 8, 2022, 11:30 AM
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The fist thing is stupid.
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CU Medallion [58367]
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The state can control what you do with your body.
May 8, 2022, 11:43 AM
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The state can control what women do with theirs. We are not allowed to hurt innocent people.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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So, the states seizes control of the bodies of 32,000 rape
May 8, 2022, 11:49 AM
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victims that become pregnant in the US each year, right after the rapist seizes it for a bit? It would be like the rapist handing the woman's body off to the state.
I would assume you support that as well. Or are you proposing another solution?
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CU Medallion [58367]
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I will answer your question when you answer mine,
May 8, 2022, 12:04 PM
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which was asked first.
Rape aside for a moment, if, at some point during pregnancy, a fetus becomes a human life, does the mother and the mother alone have the right to kill that person?
It's a very simple question. Yes, no, or maybe. Elaborate as much as you'd like (factor in rape), but answer the question.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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Yes.***
May 8, 2022, 12:31 PM
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CU Medallion [58367]
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Thanks for having the courage to answer honestly and
May 8, 2022, 4:50 PM
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directly, as most do not. Even though I find your position disturbing, this is America, and it's fine if we disagree. I don't hink a woman has the right to take the life of another human being as a form of birth control simply because she failed to act responsibly and take reasonable, readily available precautions to prevent the pregnancy in the first place.
To answer your question, in an ideal scenario, the state would make an exception and allow abortion in cases of rape. Almost all scenarios I've seen allow for that. Ether way, there's no point at which the woman's body becomes the property of the state; rather the state would prohibit a woman from killing the fetus except under extreme conditions that are no fault of the woman.
Again, this is a very tough issue with no set of answers that will satisfy everyone.
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Hall of Famer [24445]
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Agree that the rape thing is a red herring. While I would
May 9, 2022, 12:08 AM
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not do any abortions if I were a doc, if it would stop all the hollering, as a legislator I would agree to the whatabouts. Whatabout rape and incest? Okay, you can have those. Almost all, if not all, states would say the same. Now what?
They would still holler, so that's not really the issue, is it?
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CU Medallion [58367]
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No. I had this discussion with my daughter last night.
May 9, 2022, 9:21 AM
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She's 26, very bright and very thoughtful ... and has very strong opinions; and she's "pro-choice". She said she fears that a bunch of old white men, who should have little say-so in the matter, just want to ban abortion altogether, and if Roe is overturned, that is what will happen. I explained that a total ban is highly unlikely, and that with few exceptions, most places support legislation that allow abortion in cases of rape, incest, or when the life of the mother is in danger. Now, this is what you are getting at - she said she still opposed Roe being overturned, because she feels it should be entirely up to the mother (her body, her choice). Doesn't favor killing fetuses, but still thinks the mother should have the right to do so. That's where we are with this debate, and what I was getting at in my original post - this is about women demanding the right to take the life of another human as a form of birth control, but most women and politicians don't like to have the debate framed in such honest terms, for obvious reasons.
My daughter did say she agreed there should be some timeline restriction as to how far into the pregnancy an abortion could take place, for instance 8 months would be too late, but believes 6 weeks or fetal heartbeat is too early. I honestly think that's where most Americans are, but does not resolve the constitutionality question at hand.
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Orange Blooded [2574]
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Your daughter is very smart!
May 12, 2022, 8:37 AM
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I exactly 100% agree with everything she told you. I’m a woman (I have a daughter older than her) and what she said is my identical thoughts on abortion. I think after the 1st trimester there should be no abortion unless there are health issues with the mother. I believe most pro-choice women believe this same way.
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110%er [7052]
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Re: The state can never force me or you to have a baby.
May 9, 2022, 12:52 AM
[ in reply to The state can never force me or you to have a baby. ] |
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Nor can the state force you to take care of your child.
A woman who 'forgets she's pregnant' with the child of anyone (raper or not) ... with that child being in that part of the term in which he/she will be viable outside of the womb ... has the moral imperative to let that baby live by giving birth. She can then without any effort give that child up to adoption.
Same with the child that the woman doesn't want to care for ... she can give it up for adoption and she/he will be eagerly taken by a qualified household.
Stop with the militant hating of children / viable fetuses already.
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All-TigerNet [12553]
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Re: Abortion question ....
May 8, 2022, 2:47 PM
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Joe Biden,"I mean, so the idea that we're going to make a judgment that is going to say no one can make a judgment to choose to abort a child based upon a decision by the Supreme Courts, I think goes way overboard."
Abort a child.
To me it seems again that the Supreme Court basically made law with Roe v Wade. I am most certainly a human being. I have a life, yet I live in one of the 40 states that does not have legal physician- assisted suicide. I have no "choice" were I incapacitated and wished for my life to end.
I don't think anything in the Constitution affords me that right either. How so with abortion?
If Roe is indeed overturned, there will be varying laws regarding abortions depending on the state a person lives in unless the U.S. Congress codifies abortion into law.
The Supreme Court chose with its original ruling in Roe to essentially become a legislative body.
If Roe is indeed overturned, the decision on abortion will in my opinion be rightly returned to the states.
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110%er [8885]
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Re: Abortion question ....
May 8, 2022, 3:45 PM
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life at conception
science, heck yeah!
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Associate AD [838]
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How many on this board even knows what conception is?
May 8, 2022, 9:21 PM
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I'd bet that more than half don't
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Orange Blooded [2692]
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Do you trust the state an the politicians that run it?
May 8, 2022, 7:21 PM
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I do not.
Trusting them with your person, your autonomy as an individual, is the beginning of the end.
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