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All-TigerNet [10887]
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Gun grabbers don't want to stop violence, they want to
Jun 3, 2022, 5:19 PM
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inflict violence on you, and they are too scared to do it if you might have a gun.
Most don't want to do this themselves, but rather through an ever expanding government (see New Zealand, Australia, Canada, etc, etc)
Some do want to do it themselves.
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Rock Defender [53]
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###
Jun 3, 2022, 5:31 PM
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No, we just have a weird gun fetish in this country and an AR-15 should be difficult to obtain.
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All-In [27134]
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Why?***
Jun 3, 2022, 5:36 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Cuz he heard it’s scary***
Jun 3, 2022, 5:57 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Cuz he heard it’s scary***
Jun 3, 2022, 6:48 PM
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The Uvalde police officers thought it was scary
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Rock Defender [53]
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Because you can turn 18, have a bad day, kill 19 kids***
Jun 3, 2022, 6:47 PM
[ in reply to Why?*** ] |
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All-In [27134]
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So your issue is with all guns?***
Jun 3, 2022, 7:25 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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You seen a lot of examples of that happening with
Jun 3, 2022, 9:00 PM
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a handgun?
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All-In [27134]
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Out of the 30 last mass shootings, the shooters had
Jun 3, 2022, 9:09 PM
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semi-auto rifles in 10 of them. 18 involved handguns.
It's not even a question in standard gun crime.
So. Again I ask. Is your problem with all guns, then?
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Rock Defender [53]
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I’m not worried about my kids in school because of handguns
Jun 3, 2022, 9:34 PM
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Do you not draw a distinction?
I’m not anti-guns.
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All-In [27134]
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Why do ARs make you worry but not handguns?
Jun 4, 2022, 7:16 AM
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Rock Defender [53]
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19 kids
Jun 4, 2022, 9:28 AM
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Enjoy your big toy
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All-In [27134]
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So a pistol couldn't have done that?***
Jun 4, 2022, 10:53 AM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Seriously?
Jun 4, 2022, 11:33 AM
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Sure, anything is possible.
You can keep being obtuse while another public place gets shot up and 10 people die. I am confident in saying that it will not be because of a handgun - because we've literally seen the same scenario multiple times since Columbine. If you want to do something like this, the gameplan has been laid out quite clearly by other deranged people.
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All-In [27134]
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I'm not being obtuse.
Jun 4, 2022, 6:54 PM
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I'm just trying to understand your concern about ARs and not other guns.
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110%er [5676]
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all emotion and no logic
Jun 5, 2022, 12:51 PM
[ in reply to Seriously? ] |
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Just like your democratic party handlers want you to be.
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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Force multiplier issue
Jun 4, 2022, 11:45 AM
[ in reply to Why do ARs make you worry but not handguns? ] |
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ARs apparently can do a bit more damage, so yeah, they are much more scary. You already know this though.
There was a reason why parents of Uvalde students needed to have DNA tests at the school in order to identify their kids, their heads were ####### blown off, liquified, bones turned to powder. They were apparently that unrecognizable.
The argument you seem to be making is that it would make no difference in the preponderances of crimes committed. It is a flat out bs argument and you know it. With more powerful weapons, you get more problems, more death and destruction.
The ####### police knew the weapons he had, and maybe this was why they decided not to go in the building. Do you think he would have been given such a wide berth if he had only handguns?
If Ronald Reagan could figure this equation out, why can’t current crop of Republicans?
https://www.wired.com/2016/06/ar-15-can-human-body/
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Rock Defender [53]
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We also have students and families
Jun 4, 2022, 12:33 PM
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that will be traumatized forever. And for what?
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All-In [27134]
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You are wrong on basically every aspect of this post.***
Jun 4, 2022, 7:13 PM
[ in reply to Force multiplier issue ] |
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110%er [5676]
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Re: Force multiplier issue
Jun 5, 2022, 12:54 PM
[ in reply to Force multiplier issue ] |
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Because when Ronald Reagan was around, the left WAS NOT UBER CRAZY LIKE THEY ARE TODAY.
When painting over "BLM" on a DC street is a ufcking hate crime, you want me to believe the gubment, led by democrats, can come up with a common sense Red Flag law or any other law based on vague and interpretable standards?
He|| no.
Too bad. You and your party are too crazy, illogical, and emotional to get any cooperation.
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All-TigerNet [13108]
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Re: Gun grabbers don't want to stop violence, they want to
Jun 3, 2022, 5:38 PM
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I wish they would say “people control” and not “gun control”, because that is the end game.
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All-In [44047]
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It’s amazing that you actually believe that.***
Jun 3, 2022, 5:42 PM
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Lot o points [155907]
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Almost as amazing as defending Brad Brownell in 2022.
Jun 3, 2022, 5:53 PM
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HEY-OHHHHHHHH
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All-In [44047]
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Re: Almost as amazing as defending Brad Brownell in 2022.
Jun 3, 2022, 5:57 PM
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All-In [44047]
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Lot o points [155907]
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Similar reality to
Jun 3, 2022, 7:20 PM
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“Gun violence will drastically decrease if we outlaw a very niche type of mean looking gun”.
I’ll be honest. I’ll never own an Ar-15 so I don’t really care, but focusing on the guns is folly. I don’t really care to rehash the debate so I’m not going to engage further than this on a beautiful Friday night, but this is a societal and cultural issue, and that’s the only place the solution lies.
Banning AR’s, and thinking it’s remotely close to a solution is like banning lighter fluid to solve a national arson issue. The external and internal variables that are creating these individuals don’t go away with the AR sales, and they will absolutely find another means to violently impose their afflictions upon others. It’s a feel-good do-nothing bandaid that’s going to fall into the typical BS “if it saves just one life” legislative cesspool of bad address-the-symptom-not-the-problem logic.
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All-TigerNet [13108]
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Re: Similar reality to
Jun 3, 2022, 7:52 PM
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Well said, right there.
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Hall of Famer [20540]
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Re: Similar reality to
Jun 4, 2022, 7:22 AM
[ in reply to Similar reality to ] |
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I do agree. Banning the AR-15 is pointless, though I agree we do need to be smarter about who we let have them.
The Swiss are armed to the teeth, and they always will be. Yet they don't have mass shootings.
There are ways to ensure responsible gun owners get to keep their guns, while doing a better job of making sure lunatics are not using them every freaking week on schools and churches and movie theatres.
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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We regulate things that are harmful all the time
Jun 4, 2022, 4:18 PM
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I mean….even the most innocuous little thing….like Kinder Eggs. Possibly one person was harmed from swallowing the toy in a little chocolate egg, and our government zapped them from the shelves. At least the concerned parents of kids around the country are safe from those deadly Kinder Eggs.
But fancy GI Joe hardware that serves little purpose beyond death and destruction. No problem. We know you really desire to defend yourself from the highly probable threat of a tyrannical government, supposedly your god-given, 2A right, right? ????
All this “can’t do”, “not effective”, “because muh freedom” talk is weak. If it is allowed to continue, then we are pushing ourselves further down on the path to anarchy and chaos. Ironically, you will have a more difficult time enjoying your freedom.
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Lot o points [155907]
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So you think it's more deadly and unnecessary because
Jun 4, 2022, 4:45 PM
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it looks like a"GI Joe" gun?
Saying that the citizenry's self defense ability levels are inversely proportional to anarchy and chaos levels is one of the more oblivious and ignorant statements I've heard on T-net, and that's saying something.
It's a gun that you think is mean looking, I get it. It also shoots bullets at the same rate as other guns that will decidedly not be banned. A more reasonable argument you could be making would be whether we should ban all guns or not. I'd still disagree with you, but at least you'd sound like you had a more cogent argument when it came to the topic of stifling gun deaths.
You're so in the weeds on a singular gun that you don't even realize that your argument is about as relevant as saying that speeding tickets will drastically decrease if you ban sports cars.
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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I’m admittedly not a gun expert
Jun 4, 2022, 8:10 PM
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but I can discern that they are marketed in a way to resemble military-grade hardware and would therefore be attractive to the GI Joe, SWAT, Seal Team Six -guy wannabe and the various psychopaths who have used them shooting up a school.
I understand that there are other weapons that are just as capable and violent. AR is in the mix, and for reasons stated above, it is the poster child for everything that is broken with the gun industry’s contribution to the mass shooting phenomena.
Mass shootings are the clearest evidence of our descent into anarchy and chaos. How can we maintain law and order if we have a percentage of the population hell bent on committing these acts and law enforcement who are themselves intimidated by such highly destructive weapons?
Whether you want to believe it or not, the Anarchy and chaos enabled by the abundance of destructive weapons is a limit on your freedom. It is a paradox. More weapons does not equal more freedom. It is the inverse.
By the way, I don’t want a ban. I just want accountability and more personal responsibility. Just come up with better ways to regulate who can buy the guns. Give them to people who are willing to be vetted and trained, which would actually be in the spirit of the second amendment.
I just want the quickest and most reasonable end to the chaos and death-cult anarchy in which these weapons have unfortunately been the tool of choice.
BTW, apologies to you if I wasn’t clear in my logic or insulted your obviously superior intelligence.
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Lot o points [155907]
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I'm going off 4 or 5 year old memories here, but I am pretty
Jun 4, 2022, 9:17 PM
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sure it was you (or maybe Catahoula), who enlightened me at the time on the fact that mass shootings just aren't a modern (think past 25-30 years) phenomenon. They've been going on a lot, lot longer than that---I thought whoever said that was FOS so I did some digging and sure enough, they've been around in the US since 1764 (10 kids and a teacher killed in a schoolhouse by 4 American Indians).
I'm not saying they're acceptable or tolerable, nor am I disagreeing that modern society is devolving, I'm just saying that these shootings might not be the canary in the coal mine you think they are. The same sick people have been doing the same sick things for 200+ years.....long before the AR-15 was ever invented. The gun manufacturers didn't create these people.
As for the anarchy and chaos stuff and weapons limiting my freedom? I don't carry very often at all....I'm usually a glovebox kind of guy--I don't worry much throughout my day to day and feel I can probably handle whatever comes my way without a weapon on me. One exception though--- I do carry in church---we're a small, old church on a busy road with a small congregation, and we'd be an obvious target for someone sick who is intent on doing harm. I know 5 or 6 other members have their CCP as well and are also well trained. I bring this up for a couple reasons:
1) The guns are already out there in the world, as are the bad guys. That's a reality that won't go away. No law they could make about guns would make me believe that the threat of a sick, violent person would diminish, but substantial changes in the way we handle mental illness absolutely would.
2) The presence of my weapon, and those on the trained people around me, don't bring me feelings of anarchy and chaos in church--quite the opposite. They bring order to me from knowing that if a worst case scenario happened in that environment, I may or may not be successful in defending myself and my family, but I sure won't be helpless.
People worry me much, much more than whether the gun they're carrying can have 30 trigger pulls before reloading or 16 or 10.
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All-In [27134]
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Mass shooting are not the jumping off point for gun control
Jun 4, 2022, 9:43 PM
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people make them out to be. It's not an opinion. It's all in the data.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/
The third worst mass shooting in the modern era was VT. 32 people died. The killer used two pistols. Unless your argument is all guns should be banned, singling out the AR-15 is an emotional response, not a rational one.
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Lot o points [155907]
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Yes, that's what I was saying
Jun 4, 2022, 9:44 PM
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just a lot more succinctly and with better data.
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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All-In [27134]
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Top 20?
Jun 4, 2022, 11:10 PM
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Evenly mixed between rifle and handgun.
You're not going to find your answer in the data. It does not exist. Even if rifles were more exclusively used, it would not mean that pistols would not have been used in their place.
There is no mass shooting data justification for an AR ban.
Ironically, the same motivation you have for the AR ban is the same motivation killers gravitate towards them. The mystique. Not because they are the best instrument for the task.
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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All-In [27134]
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What you perhaps did not specifically say but I think you
Jun 4, 2022, 11:48 PM
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said between the lines, and what you likely agree with and would be 100% right about, is that we have an extremely toxic gun culture in our country. Moreover, the near worship of guns (specifically the AR) rather than seeing them for what they are -- a tool -- is likely a very strong psychological factor in grooming troubled kids into school shooters. This toxic culture leads them to believe THE GUN will make them whole; it will give them power and standing in a world that they perceive as being always against them. And, one day, it will give them a chance to even those standings.
I do not agree banning ARs is a solution to this, but I do believe if the 2A movement wants to be taken more seriously, then they need to start taking guns more seriously. It's not a fashion accessory for Instagram. It's a tool to kill when necessary in self-defense.
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Lot o points [155907]
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This isn’t a catch-all explanation, but
Jun 4, 2022, 11:55 PM
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The gun culture is also what a lot of these younger shooters embrace and implement as their (often Message board/forum-inspired) definition of masculinity, absent receiving a proper definition from a proper father.
Like I said, not a catch-all correlation, but the percentages are too high to ignore, IMHO.
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All-In [27134]
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I never considered the father surrogacy angle but
Jun 5, 2022, 12:18 AM
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It's fascinating and I suspect very true. The same feeling of empowerment they gain from the gun is also present in fulfilling this "warrior" archetype formed online by guys who offline sport XXXL tac gear to check the mail as their wives are prepping divorce papers. But these kids have no other models for healthy male behavior.
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Lot o points [155907]
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Indeed. We should be grateful to Detroit.
Jun 5, 2022, 12:25 AM
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I think lifted/squatted domestic Brodozers jump in and handle the load for filling this macho void in a much healthier and safer way for many of the usual suspects.
(Okay, that was in jest——kind of)
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All-In [27134]
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Here. I went a step further to illustrate it more clearly.
Jun 4, 2022, 11:41 PM
[ in reply to Top 20? ] |
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This is every mass shooting with a body count of 10+. In only 5 incidents (20%) was a semiauto rifle present exclusively. That means in 80% of the worst mass shootings in America, we can reasonably and easily assume the would have happened regardless. And, given the nature of mass shootings, we can assume the body counts would have been the same (and one could argue perhaps worse, given how easily concealed a handgun is, meaning confrontation -- a key to limiting the duration of mass shootings -- is delayed.)
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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When gun control worked
Jun 4, 2022, 3:23 PM
[ in reply to Similar reality to ] |
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This #### isn’t rocket science.
Tommy guns used to be legal til Roosevelt banned them in 1934 because of the kind of random violence people like Bonnie and Clyde, John Dillenger caused.
At the time, no one presented the modern 2A “shall not infringe” arguments to beat down the law. Maybe it was because a lot of innocent people and LEO officers died, but it was possibly because we didn’t have a well-funded gun industry manipulating the politicians into a wedge issue.
What do you imagine our country would look like if we had not acted to make Thompson sub-machine guns illegal? 600 rounds per minute.
We drew a line there based on firepower, so it should be the same idea with any other such destructive platform, which I would suggest includes the AR.
If police won’t act because they know they are outgunned, then this only emboldens the psychopath to act more brazenly.
Since the AR ban ended in 2004, the situation hasn’t gotten worse, and it isn’t just about mental health.
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All-In [27134]
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Why draw the line at the AR?
Jun 4, 2022, 9:49 PM
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Pistols are vastly more prominent in gun crime than semiautomatic rifles. So explain to me why you draw the line at the AR.
Mass shootings do occur, and will occur, in the absence of the AR. As I posted earlier, the shooter had a pistol in 18 of the last 30 mass shootings. In the third deadliest mass shooting in America, the shooter had two pistols. So explain to me why you draw the line at the AR.
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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I think we need to start with the poster child
Jun 4, 2022, 11:19 PM
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for mass shootings which is this style of weapon. As I mentioned above, va tech was an outlier, 12/13 of the worst mass shootings all involved this particular style rifle.
Handguns are probably a much more difficult problem and unlikely place for a simple solution. But since only one of the 13 worst mass shootings involved handguns only, it’s not the best place to start.
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All-In [27134]
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Nope.
Jun 4, 2022, 11:26 PM
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The prevalence of handguns in mass shootings, including the worst (you call VT an outlier, but the data does not), does not allow this argument to persist. If you ban ARs, handguns will be used. If you ban handguns, semi-auto shotguns will be used. If you ban semi-auto firearms, pump shotguns will be used.
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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I’m for anything to slow them down
Jun 4, 2022, 11:53 PM
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Other countries managed to stop this phenomena but for some reason, we are the exception. Why is that?
You are saying we have no choice, it will always happen with some other weapon. Ban all guns, then maybe they’ll use improvised explosives. This isn’t really an argument as much as it is a unsupported hypothesis with way too many variables for us to ever reason about. It becomes pointless to debate.
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All-In [27134]
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And that's the problem with mass shootings.
Jun 5, 2022, 12:00 AM
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There are so many moving parts to them that using them as some sort of impetus for major action impacting the Second Amendment can't survive even basic scrutiny. The ages, races, weapons, locations -- everything -- is scattered across the board.
Which all says to me that we are focusing way too much on how people kill, and not why. And all we do is spend a ton of time and political capital on a solution that won't do anything.
Here are some examples:
If some people kill because they're young, not fully developed, and prone to extreme emotional swings, then maybe the answer is not an AR ban, but an age limit increase for those types of firearms. I bet you could potentially get a winning coalition on that; especially at the state level (I think NY is in the process of this).
If some people kill because they're mentally incapacitated in some way, shape, or form, then maybe the answer is not a gun ban at all, but more powerful tools to separate them from their firearms, like Red Flag laws. Again, I bet this is a winning issue, even at the federal level, if done right.
In neither case are we banning a firearm used safely and constitutionally, but we are taking very specific steps at addressing what we do actually know about mass shootings.
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Lot o points [155907]
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You’re looking at the effect and missing the cause.
Jun 5, 2022, 12:04 AM
[ in reply to I’m for anything to slow them down ] |
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No weapon hypnotizes an otherwise sane, well-balanced individual and makes them want to murder as many people as they can. Why do we care about what tool they want to use moreso than their motivations to use it?
The incidence rate for shootings is highest in the US. If you care about motivations, I suggest this is a good place to start. We have destroyed and devalued the family unit like no other country on Earth. A healthy family environment is where one typically learns such societal norms as the value of life and the basic social contracts that dictate we shouldn’t kill each other.
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All-TigerNet [10887]
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It's true. They want the government to impose ever more
Jun 3, 2022, 6:51 PM
[ in reply to It’s amazing that you actually believe that.*** ] |
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rules and restrictions based on their F'd up ideas. And every time the government makes a new rule, they are essentially pointing a gun at you and saying "do this or die."
These a**hats want the government to have guns, and their dear leaders' bodyguards to have guns, but not you.
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All-In [44047]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32964
Joined: 2/22/03
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You seem pretty convinced that the government is out to get you
Jun 3, 2022, 7:49 PM
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and that your livelihood depends on protecting yourself from them.
Just out of curiosity, do you only feel this way about our government, or all governments? Do any other countries have governments you would feel safer living under?
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All-TigerNet [10887]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15067
Joined: 8/6/10
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You seem adept at mischaracterizing statements.
Jun 3, 2022, 9:07 PM
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It's all government, and they're the enemy of all peaceful people.
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All-In [44047]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32964
Joined: 2/22/03
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Sounds like you should buy your own island then.***
Jun 3, 2022, 9:42 PM
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All-TigerNet [10887]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15067
Joined: 8/6/10
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Spoken like a true gangster.***
Jun 4, 2022, 12:59 PM
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110%er [8984]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9785
Joined: 4/27/13
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Re: Gun grabbers don't want to stop violence, they want to
Jun 3, 2022, 8:19 PM
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gubmint is not out to get you, but
remember when democrats said take your shot or lose your job
even kicked volunteers out of the service
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All-TigerNet [10887]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15067
Joined: 8/6/10
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The only reason we didn't have door to door injection teams
Jun 3, 2022, 9:08 PM
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is guns.
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Heisman Winner [111580]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 73752
Joined: 9/10/03
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Re: The only reason we didn't have door to door injection teams
Jun 3, 2022, 9:10 PM
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well if we had a national registry, it would be a lot easier for the government to know whose doors not to kick in, right tom?
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All-In [27134]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15694
Joined: 1/26/22
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jeebus dude. you're the kid who held the match next to the
Jun 3, 2022, 9:12 PM
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gas can, weren't you?
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Orange Blooded [2019]
TigerPulse: 85%
Posts: 3077
Joined: 7/30/04
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Re: Gun grabbers don't want to stop violence, they want to
Jun 3, 2022, 11:04 PM
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Orange Blooded [2019]
TigerPulse: 85%
Posts: 3077
Joined: 7/30/04
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Re: Gun grabbers don't want to stop violence, they want to
Jun 3, 2022, 11:22 PM
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Orange Blooded [3615]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 8864
Joined: 5/16/22
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Re: Gun grabbers don't want to stop violence, they want to
Jun 5, 2022, 6:37 AM
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LoL...okay
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