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Replies: 58
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Hall of Famer [21815]
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Deer okrahoma players....
Dec 28, 2015, 10:05 AM
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"Arrogance is weakness disguised as strength"
"Arrogance is the camouflage of insecurity."
"Arrogance and rudeness are training wheels on the bicycle of life for weak people who cannot keep their balance without it."
To the Tiger players
"Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance." - Sun Tzu
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Rock Defender [60]
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Re: Deer okrahoma players....
Dec 28, 2015, 11:23 AM
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On the other hand, authenticity is a virtue.
What statements would you say are "arrogant" rather than "authentic"?
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110%er [8681]
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Re: Deer okrahoma players....
Dec 28, 2015, 11:25 AM
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Let's start with "There's not a defense that can shut us down"......see the 107th ranked defense Texas has.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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stupidity shrouded in arrogance is not a cardinal virtue?***
Dec 28, 2015, 11:31 AM
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Rock Defender [60]
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Re: Deer okrahoma players....
Dec 28, 2015, 12:00 PM
[ in reply to Re: Deer okrahoma players.... ] |
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What do you call "being shut down"? Texas and Tennessee did hold OU to 17 in regulation early in the year. That's not what I would call a shutout or shutdown.
But more importantly, we're not talking about getting in a time machine and playing early October Oklahoma. We're talking about playing Oklahoma as they exist today. This is a team that started the year with a new QB, new RB (Mixon), new WRs and OL, new offensive scheme, and new offensive coordinator. They've grown over the course of the season, changed some personnel over the course of the season, and learned what works over the course of the season.
When I read that this club says "nobody can shut us down", I think it's a genuine player response to the constant implication that we won't be able to execute at a high level against good defenses. Stoops has been in big games before; we know where we sit as a team.
Here's a question for Clemson fans: Do you really think you can shutout OU on Thursday?
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Rock Defender [53]
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There's a difference between shut down and shut out.***
Dec 28, 2015, 12:13 PM
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Orange Blooded [2557]
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You sir are correct! Shut out is what our 1st string
Dec 28, 2015, 6:15 PM
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did to them last year. Shut down is what our 2's and 3's did in only allowing 6 points against their 1's! Thanks for clarifying for people with bad cases of the confused....like myself. 
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Deer okrahoma players....
Dec 28, 2015, 12:16 PM
[ in reply to Re: Deer okrahoma players.... ] |
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Clemson is a team that started the year with a QB recovering from ACL surgery, new WRs and OL, new offensive coordinators and a new defense. They've grown over the course of the season, changed some personnel over the course of the season, and learned what works over the course of the season (Jesus find a new term for "over the course of the season")
Here's a question for Oklahoma fans: Do you really think you can keep up with Clemson on Thursday?
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110%er [8681]
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Re: Deer okrahoma players....
Dec 28, 2015, 12:18 PM
[ in reply to Re: Deer okrahoma players.... ] |
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Putting up 17 points against not even a top 100 defense is getting shutdown. And to answer your question Clemson probably won't shut out Oklahoma , putting goose egg is too much to ask for a defense but they're not going to give up more than 20.
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Tiger Cub [14]
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Re: Deer okrahoma players....
Dec 28, 2015, 3:11 PM
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> Putting up 17 points against not even a top 100
> defense is getting shutdown. And to answer your
> question Clemson probably won't shut out Oklahoma ,
> putting goose egg is too much to ask for a defense
> but they're not going to give up more than 20.
You should put your money where your big mouth is. Phone call to Vegas is free
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110%er [8681]
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Re: Deer okrahoma players....
Dec 28, 2015, 3:15 PM
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Who says I haven't put some on the game?
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Tiger Cub [14]
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Re: Deer okrahoma players....
Dec 28, 2015, 3:19 PM
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I hope you bet the farm, but I know there is too much doubt in back of your head
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All-In [28196]
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The Doubt
Dec 28, 2015, 3:37 PM
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is clear in your players head and comes out of their mouths. if you guys don't get it by now, you will thu. lets all be clear, we have seen teams such as oklahomo, but you've seen NO TEAM or qb comparable to the tigers. you got a glimpse with a 3rd stringer last yr. not so fortunate this yr. the only way you win is if we turn the ball over 3 or 4 times in our end and you score. if we protect ball and play tiger ball - its over.
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Tiger Cub [14]
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Re: The Doubt
Dec 28, 2015, 3:55 PM
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> is clear in your players head and comes out of their
> mouths. if you guys don't get it by now, you will
> thu. lets all be clear, we have seen teams such as
> oklahomo, but you've seen NO TEAM or qb comparable to
> the tigers. you got a glimpse with a 3rd stringer
> last yr. not so fortunate this yr. the only way you
> win is if we turn the ball over 3 or 4 times in our
> end and you score. if we protect ball and play tiger
> ball - its over.
Building in your excuse 3-4 turnovers. How about OU taking the ball away from your players 3-4 times. That's what OU has done all year.
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All-In [28196]
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Re: The Doubt
Dec 28, 2015, 3:57 PM
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they won't - but that IS YOUR ONLY SHOT
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Orange Blooded [2557]
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Cool. Glad you guys have gotten better this year vs
Dec 28, 2015, 6:29 PM
[ in reply to Re: The Doubt ] |
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those stout Big12 D's. You're going to say we play in the ACC huh? Well, FSU & BC are light years better than any D you saw this year. Problem is, you're playing the team that turned you over consistently last year, not the other D's you've played this year. Seemed a big step up for your boys last year to put it mildly. Did you make excuses about last year about you guys turned it over, or that we turned you over? Honest question....no crappy sentiment behind it. Just curious as to what you said after last year.
####, at 40-6, I'd try to come up with any excuse people would listen to. We've all been there when our team doesn't gives up after getting down early, or worse, doesn't show up at all. It sucks.
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CU Guru [1497]
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Shutdown does not equal shutout
Dec 28, 2015, 12:18 PM
[ in reply to Re: Deer okrahoma players.... ] |
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at least not to most reasonable fans of football.
Shutdown = holding a player or team to less than their usual (or average) number of yards or points.
So, if your average PPG is 33 and a team holds you to 13 most would say you got shutdown.
Shutout = 0 points on the scoreboard.
To answer your question, do I believe that we can shutout the Sooners: yes, of course we can, and we probably would if this was the actual end of our season. Unfortunately for you it will be the end of yours... we will probably have to pull our guys early so they can rest up for the game against Michigan St. next week.
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Rock Defender [60]
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Re: Shutdown does not equal shutout
Dec 28, 2015, 12:54 PM
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So by your definition, Clemson wasn't able to shutdown UNC, but you think you will be able to shutdown OU?
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Hall of Famer [21815]
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Re: Shutdown does not equal shutout
Dec 28, 2015, 12:58 PM
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UNC offensive numbers were against teams who had a defense with a pulse. The same can't be said for okrahoma.
But hey, keep hanging your hat on beating 3rd team QBs and D's without a pulse. You'll face the real deal on Thursday.
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Tiger Cub [14]
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Re: Shutdown does not equal shutout
Dec 28, 2015, 3:17 PM
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> UNC offensive numbers were against teams who had a
> defense with a pulse. The same can't be said for
> okrahoma.
>
> But hey, keep hanging your hat on beating 3rd team
> QBs and D's without a pulse. You'll face the real
> deal on Thursday.
Hey your defenses with a pulse play offenses with no pulse. It goes both ways coot.
Go Sooners!
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CU Medallion [54011]
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Coot? That's cute. You heard a word on TigerNet and you used it.
Dec 28, 2015, 3:23 PM
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Now get a dictionary and figure out what it is.
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Hall of Famer [21815]
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Re: Shutdown does not equal shutout
Dec 29, 2015, 8:53 AM
[ in reply to Re: Shutdown does not equal shutout ] |
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LOL...coot?
You just showed your stupidity guy...
Also, a quick look at season stats show that there are 6 ACC teams in the top 60 of total offense.
There are 2 Big 12 teams in the top 60 of total defense....
So keep telling me how it's comparable...
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CU Guru [1497]
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Yes!
Dec 28, 2015, 12:59 PM
[ in reply to Re: Shutdown does not equal shutout ] |
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That is what I'm saying. What is in the water out there in OK? It must turn brain matter into lead...
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Rock Defender [60]
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Re: Yes!
Dec 28, 2015, 1:21 PM
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Okay, gotcha.
You think UNC (offense=22,defense=65 using FootballOutsiders S&P) is a stronger offense than Oklahoma (offense=3,defense=12).
We'll soon see if you're correct.
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Orange Blooded [4854]
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What you and others are missing on is
Dec 28, 2015, 1:25 PM
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fully rested D with a month to prepare for is a totally different situation for OU than UNC.
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Tiger Cub [14]
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Re: What you and others are missing on is
Dec 28, 2015, 3:24 PM
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> fully rested D with a month to prepare for is a
> totally different situation for OU than UNC.
OU has had a month of rest as well. Sooner defense didn't really need it though. They finished the season strong, unlike Clemson...
Ya, I get it. Clemson played 10 straight and they were tired. That's a sorry excuse. Also OU plays the same offense Clemson has several times a season in the big 12.
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Tiger Cub [14]
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Re: What you and others are missing on is
Dec 28, 2015, 3:24 PM
[ in reply to What you and others are missing on is ] |
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> fully rested D with a month to prepare for is a
> totally different situation for OU than UNC.
OU has had a month of rest as well. Sooner defense didn't really need it though. They finished the season strong, unlike Clemson...
Ya, I get it. Clemson played 10 straight and they were tired. That's a sorry excuse. Also OU plays the same offense Clemson has several times a season in the big 12.
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All-In [27363]
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Re: What you and others are missing on is
Dec 28, 2015, 3:37 PM
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I bet DiaStema will not be available for discussions come Friday morning
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Tiger Cub [14]
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Re: What you and others are missing on is
Dec 28, 2015, 3:56 PM
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> I bet DiaStema will not be available for discussions
> come Friday morning
I will be right here to congratulate your teams victory! It's gonna be a good game and both teams have the same shot at winning.
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CU Medallion [54011]
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Why don't you use the real stats?
Dec 28, 2015, 2:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: Yes! ] |
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You keep using these "innovative" football outsiders stats. I know the real stats don't fit your agenda, but it's ok to be honest. You know your team has not faced a defense all year. You know you barely got by a bad Tennessee team, lost to Texas, and needed a brain fart of a call from Patterson to save your chances at making it to the playoffs.
But keep using manipulated stats if it makes you feel better about the OU's chances. I would however ask yourself this, who are your trash talking players trying to convince that they are good? Is it the media, Clemson, or themselves?
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Hall of Famer [21815]
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Re: Why don't you use the real stats?***
Dec 28, 2015, 2:08 PM
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Tiger Cub [14]
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Re: Why don't you use the real stats?
Dec 28, 2015, 3:13 PM
[ in reply to Why don't you use the real stats? ] |
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> You keep using these "innovative" football outsiders
> stats. I know the real stats don't fit your agenda,
> but it's ok to be honest. You know your team has not
> faced a defense all year. You know you barely got by
> a bad Tennessee team, lost to Texas, and needed a
> brain fart of a call from Patterson to save your
> chances at making it to the playoffs.
>
> But keep using manipulated stats if it makes you feel
> better about the OU's chances. I would however ask
> yourself this, who are your trash talking players
> trying to convince that they are good? Is it the
> media, Clemson, or themselves?
And Clemson needed a busted offsides call to assure victory against a good unc team with a terrible throwing qb.
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CU Medallion [54011]
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It wasn't a busted offsides call. You're wrong.
Dec 28, 2015, 3:19 PM
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Regardless Clemson hasn't lost this season and Oklahoma has. At this point Clemson has 2 more wins on the season. After Thursday that will be 3 more wins on the season. None of what you are saying changes the fact that Baker Mayfield has yet to play QB against any defense with a pulse. But keep your hopes up. It will hurt all that much more when your calling for Stoops head.
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110%er [5280]
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Re: Why don't you use the real stats?
Dec 28, 2015, 4:10 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why don't you use the real stats? ] |
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Interesting UNC needed two no-call targetings (one being on that play) while a CLemson player was called in the game for targeting to feel like they had a "chance" with an 8 point deficit...
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110%er [7148]
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you do realize the call was made before it was determined
Dec 28, 2015, 5:52 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why don't you use the real stats? ] |
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who made the recovery?
Clemson didn't need anything. It just happened.
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Rock Defender [60]
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Re: Why don't you use the real stats?
Dec 28, 2015, 3:51 PM
[ in reply to Why don't you use the real stats? ] |
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FreeTote,
The reason I use FootballOutsiders S&P is simple: they attempt to normalize for competition. You may have noticed that OU and Clemson do not have any common opponents, so it's somewhat challenging to compare their capabilities if you want to do it with any accuracy. For instance, you can assert that the reason the Big12 is often a leader in offensive stats is that the Big12 has poor defenses--normalizing for competition attempts to address that.
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All-In [43989]
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Does it account for the fact that your three biggest wins
Dec 28, 2015, 4:00 PM
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were against teams without their starting QB?
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CU Medallion [54011]
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Okay, but S & P is just as useless for comparing teams.
Dec 28, 2015, 4:01 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why don't you use the real stats? ] |
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It essentially uses the same "eye test" premise that so many analysts try to use when comparing teams. They pick and choose who they think is comparable.
The non "innovative" stats simply work to demonstrate how a team performed against the opponents they have faced. It may not be perfectly useful for comparison, but it is honest. Manipulated rankings do nothing but place trust in so called "experts" opinions. It is more so flawed, in my opinion, than just basic stat rankings.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Ok, let's go by S&P rankings. The best wins Clemson (#2)
Dec 28, 2015, 4:04 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why don't you use the real stats? ] |
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has are against #5 FSU and #8 Notre Dame.
The best wins Oklahoma (#3) has are over #14 Baylor and #23 TCU with a loss to . . . wait for it . . . #70 Texas.
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110%er [5280]
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Re: Why don't you use the real stats?
Dec 28, 2015, 4:15 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why don't you use the real stats? ] |
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Since we are using them...let's see you and Dia stems explain this then...from Football outsiders...
This offensive line:
Faces this defensive line:
Clemson has faced these defensive lines:
Top 20 (4): #1, #12, #18, #20
Top 21-40 (1): #36
Top 41-100 (4): #70, #82, #93,
Bottom 100 (2)
While OU has faced these offensive lines:
Top 20 (2): #3, #12
Top 21-40 (3): #24, #27, #31
Top 41-100 (4): #44, #53, #67,
Bottom 100 (3)
---------------------------------------------
This offensive line:
Faces this defensive line (with the #1 TFL leader in the NCAA, and 2 of the top 50 in sacks):
OU has faced these defensive lines:
Top 40 (2): #9, #16,
Top 21-40 (2): #23, #33
Top 41-100 (6): #41, #47, #49, #51, #64, #99
Bottom 100 (2)
While Clemson has faced these offensive lines:
Top 20 (6): #4, #5, #10, #16, #18, #19
Top 21-40 (2): #36, #38
Top 41-100 (2): #58, #69,
Bottom 100 (2)
I see a pretty decent mismatch there, as well as a decent mismatch in what was played against, in the trenches.
Care to discuss?
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Letterman [298]
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Re: Why don't you use the real stats?
Dec 28, 2015, 4:24 PM
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Good stuff.....make these oklahomos vanish.
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Rock Defender [60]
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Re: Why don't you use the real stats?
Dec 28, 2015, 5:39 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why don't you use the real stats? ] |
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Tiger1978,
As you no doubt know, the stats you provided compare the offensive and defensive lines from OU and Clemson. My interpretation is that FootballOutsiders says the trench-war will be very close when Clemson has the ball, and Clemson's line may have a slight edge when OU has the ball.
If true (and I'm not saying I agree with this assessment), would that outcome guarantee a victory for Clemson? My guess is no--there are too many other important factors for two pretty evenly matched lines to guarantee an outcome.
Based on a more global view of Clemson's and OU's performance leading up to this game, I think a Sooner victory in a hard fought game is most probable. I care more about that than who gets the most sacks.
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110%er [5280]
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Re: Why don't you use the real stats?
Dec 28, 2015, 9:35 PM
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Is one of those factors that Shaq Lawson can take on double teams successfully, unlike Ok State's main guy? And that he leads the nation in tackles for loss? And that Clemson has not one, but two guys in the top 50 in sacks...Lawson, and Kevin Dodd (who sits in the rankings right after Striker, OU's only guy in the top 50)? And Clemson's offense and defense have in total O and D, and well as looking at lines faced more adversity and more higher ranked lines? Or that Clemson's QB has the higher QBR, Pass EPA, Run EPA, Total EPA, and Sack EPA between the two teams' QB's?? Just curious?
I think you are honestly doing nothing more than trying to find ways to twist stats in your own head to fit your view, or dismissing them to still think OU will be dominant, even when the stats say you likely won't. If you look at CLemson's offensive line stats vs OU's defense, there are major mismatches on that side as well...let's look at it, with the explanation of each stat:
Run-blocking stats
Adjusted Line Yards: One of only two opponent-adjusted numbers on the page, this aligns with the ALY figure FO tracks for the NFL and is presented on a scale in which 100.0 is perfectly average, above 100 is good, below 100 is bad.
Clemson is 9th, OU is 12th...so this one is fairly even, Clemson slight advantage.
Standard Downs Line Yards per Carry: The raw, unadjusted per-carry line yardage for a team on standard downs (first down, second-and-7 or fewer, third-and-4 or fewer, fourth-and-4 or fewer).
Clemson is 19th, OU is 23rd...so this is also fairly even, Clemson slight advantage.
Passing Downs Line Yards per Carry: The same unadjusted averages for rushing on passing downs.
Clemson is 35th, OU is 97th. Mismatch...Clemson decent advantage
Opportunity Rate: The percentage of carries (when five yards are available) that gain at least five yards, i.e. the percentage of carries in which the line does its job, so to speak.
Clemson is ranked 44th at a 40.6% success rate, OU is ranked 50th at a 37% success rate for it's D doing it's job...also fairly even, Clemson slight advantage.
Power Success Rate: This is the same as on the pro side -- percentage of runs on third or fourth down, two yards or less to go, that achieved a first down or touchdown.
Clemson is ranked 6th, OU is ranked 114th....HUGE advantage Clemson
Stuff Rate: Same as STUFFED on the pro side -- percentage of carries by running backs that are stopped at or before the line of scrimmage.
Clemson is ranked 11th, OU is ranked 54th...again, decent advantage Clemson (Clemson is only stuffed 15.8% of the time, while OU only stuffs them 20.9% of the time)
Pass-blocking stats
Adjusted Sack Rate: An opponent-adjusted version of a team's sack rate -- sacks divided by (sacks plus passes), presented on a scale in which 100 is perfectly average, above 100 is good, below 100 is bad.
Clemson is ranked 4th (291.9 rate), while OU is ranked 47th (108.4...only 8.4 from being in the "bad" range)....HUGE advantage Clemson.
Standard Downs Sack Rate: Unadjusted sack rate for standard downs pass attempts.
Clemson is ranked 7th, while OU is ranked 31st...decent-to-HUGE advantage Clemson
Passing Downs Sack Rate: Unadjusted sack rate for passing downs pass attempts.
Clemson is ranked 8th, while OU is ranked 41st...decent-to-HUGE advantage Clemson
But in all that, you get they are fairly even?? Don't see how you come up with that one...
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110%er [5280]
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Re: Why don't you use the real stats?
Dec 28, 2015, 9:45 PM
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and note, if you do the same on the other side...it's worse...Clemson with many more huge advantages. Put a few together, and you'll get the real answer to which defense will likely get to which QB more often...not that you want to look at that.
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Letterman [298]
TigerPulse: 86%
Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/27/10
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Re: Why don't you use the real stats?
Dec 28, 2015, 4:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why don't you use the real stats? ] |
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UNC will handle Baylor tomorrow night. That can be a moot reference point.
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Orange Blooded [4854]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9113
Joined: 1/15/08
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TJ Green was shutdown by the ACC Championship Officials
Dec 28, 2015, 12:59 PM
[ in reply to Re: Shutdown does not equal shutout ] |
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This week TJ will be one of many Tigers doing the shutdown shuffle!
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All-TigerNet [10402]
TigerPulse: 95%
Posts: 17413
Joined: 8/9/10
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Re: Shutdown does not equal shutout
Dec 28, 2015, 1:01 PM
[ in reply to Re: Shutdown does not equal shutout ] |
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I was more worried about UNC than I am vs OU.
The Sooners can't beat the Tigers.
You will see
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110%er [7148]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3799
Joined: 9/19/10
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We've played at least 3 teams better than OU
Dec 28, 2015, 5:54 PM
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Florida State
Notre Dame
UNC
and dare I say possibly NC state, yep I said it.
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110%er [5280]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6926
Joined: 11/5/12
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Re: Shutdown does not equal shutout
Dec 28, 2015, 1:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: Shutdown does not equal shutout ] |
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So by your definition, the UNC game that was the last of 10 straight matters but the early Texas game, orv the fact of playing a 19 QBR QB for 2.5 qtrs vs TCU doesn't??
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Orange Blooded [3507]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4149
Joined: 12/5/23
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Orange Blooded [2783]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3409
Joined: 4/14/11
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And actually we did keep them below their averages
Dec 28, 2015, 2:17 PM
[ in reply to Re: Shutdown does not equal shutout ] |
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but don't let facts get in the way of a good retort.
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Legend [19919]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7798
Joined: 10/12/08
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Don't have to shut them out. The bad guys just have to try to keep up.
Dec 28, 2015, 1:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: Deer okrahoma players.... ] |
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Nothing better to do with your time? Don't you have some land to steal or something?
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All-In [36448]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 18324
Joined: 12/6/13
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A "time machine"... Seriously?
Dec 28, 2015, 4:03 PM
[ in reply to Re: Deer okrahoma players.... ] |
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You are talking about a team from the same year... All the same players...
Just when I thought I had heard it all.
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110%er [5576]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 848
Joined: 11/27/11
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95382
Joined: 12/25/09
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It's sure not the projections of insecurity coming from OU.
Dec 28, 2015, 11:29 AM
[ in reply to Re: Deer okrahoma players.... ] |
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I'd say they are authentic.
We've heard chit talk from 13 teams this season. Frankly, your players aren't even in the same class with some of our chit talking opponents. ND, now ND is a world class chit talking bunch.
My only regret for this game is that I know our head coach doesn't run up the score on cupcakes like OU.
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Orange Blooded [4048]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4627
Joined: 9/14/14
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Re: Deer okrahoma players....
Dec 28, 2015, 5:21 PM
[ in reply to Re: Deer okrahoma players.... ] |
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OU defense softer than a flaming rooster in a hen house
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Rock Defender [60]
TigerPulse: 59%
Posts: 61
Joined: 12/9/15
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Re: Deer okrahoma players....
Dec 28, 2015, 5:46 PM
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Keith75,
I don't know how to interpret that. I think OU has a very solid defense built to play against teams like Baylor, TCU, and Oklahoma State. In each case, OU held those teams to well below their average production.
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Hall of Famer [21815]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15701
Joined: 10/23/12
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Re: Deer okrahoma players....
Dec 29, 2015, 8:47 AM
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each team playing with backup QBs....
Backup QB vs. Heisman Finalist....You'll be playing against a completely different beast on Thursday.
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Orange Blooded [2772]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3736
Joined: 1/15/13
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Re: Deer okrahoma players....
Dec 28, 2015, 12:11 PM
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Here are the answers.....
To their arrogance!
Go Tigers!!
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