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Hall of Famer [20540]
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Should citizenship be an earned thing, like Rome's once was?
Jan 21, 2022, 1:31 PM
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Just a random thought...prominent Libertarian sci-fi writer Robert A. Heinlein once proposed - oddly enough, in his novel Starship Troopers, which has about as much in common with the godawful campy movie very loosely based on it as a barracuda has in common with a goldfish - a society where citizenship was earned through service, much as Rome's once was. The only thing anyone - regardless of race, gender, or physical infirmity - was guaranteed was the right to serve. Citizenship ("franchise"), was awarded upon the successful completion of that service. And no matter who you were, they'd find you something to do...but then you had to do it.
The thought was, it didn't matter if you were in the Marine Corps or the Peace Corps...but serve. For a period in time, put the good of society ahead of your own wants and needs. And the only difference between a citizen and a normal taxpayer was that the citizens had the right to vote...all other rights were identical, and they paid exactly the same taxes, with no additional rights or privileges.
Thoughts?
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Oculus Spirit [97716]
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There was a nice shower scene in Starship Troopers.
Jan 21, 2022, 1:36 PM
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Genderless showers are a swell....idea.
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Hall of Famer [20540]
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Re: There was a nice shower scene in Starship Troopers.
Jan 21, 2022, 1:38 PM
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Yeah, those weren't bad either. Definitely not in the book, but hey, I'll never complain about gratuitous boobage.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Should citizenship be an earned thing, like Rome's once was?
Jan 21, 2022, 1:44 PM
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Hall of Famer [20540]
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Heisman Winner [137908]
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Good idea, but...
Jan 21, 2022, 1:51 PM
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the wealthy make the rules, and the wealthy, and especially those with inherited wealth, historically have little interest in the common good. They wouldn't allow that system to be discussed, much less implemented.
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Heisman Winner [137908]
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Or, it would just be gamed.
Jan 21, 2022, 1:52 PM
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"I totally did some service back in college that you don't know about."
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Hall of Famer [20540]
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Re: Or, it would just be gamed.
Jan 21, 2022, 2:04 PM
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Oh, they'd undoubtedly try.
Still, a fascinating idea, no? It's an interesting mix of utter egalitarianism...and a selective meritocracy.
The summary of that article - which Heinlein predicted way back in the '50's - was that America would fade as people did not match their rights with their attendant responsibilities, and that a crazy population with universal voting would in turn vote in crazy. We seem to be hitting the very "crazy times" he once predicted, with almost startling prescience.
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All-In [29860]
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Re: Or, it would just be gamed.
Jan 21, 2022, 2:31 PM
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That's kind of what I'm getting at. When you have a situation where everyone can vote at every level, it gets crazy. Because you can develop this dynamic where there could be more loyalty to the top than to the middle, or bottom, which then completely dissolves any power the lower levels might have, in deference to the top.
Any idea of a collection of states, bound together by a mechanism that handles the things states can't handle alone (like war, or fair international trade, or state-state disputes) gets blown to bits when there is more individual loyalty to the president than to the governor, for just one example. Sort of a modern day "All hail Caesar, and to he77 with the senators." (Though I'm pretty sure citizens didn't vote for Caesar, lol)
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All-In [29860]
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Re: Should citizenship be an earned thing, like Rome's once was?
Jan 21, 2022, 2:17 PM
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It's a good question. I like it.
There could be other considerations. Like, if I need manual labor, do I care if that labor is a citizen or not? Or If I sell stuff, do I care if the people who buy my stuff are citizens or not? Or if I'm concerned about a shrinking or stagnant population, do I care if the baby makers are citizens or not? If I go to war, do I care if my gun-toters are citizens or not?
But sounds like your post is distilled into this: "And the only difference between a citizen and a normal taxpayer was that the citizens had the right to vote."
So if voting is the key distinction, and nothing else, the follow up question would be voting at what level...local, state, federal?
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All-TigerNet [13105]
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Re: Should citizenship be an earned thing, like Rome's once was?
Jan 21, 2022, 3:09 PM
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Those with a net positive tax burden, are the citizens.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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Yea, I need a few slaves...;~)***
Jan 21, 2022, 4:32 PM
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All-TigerNet [12246]
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When I was a young Army officer Starship Troopers was on our
Jan 21, 2022, 5:03 PM
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Army professional development reading list - finally got around to reading it in '92. Definitely some interesting and debatable concepts in that book - everything from morals/ethics, societal structure, to tactics.
Regarding service = citizenship... There was a time I would have jumped on that train but ultimately think citizenship should be open to our greater society. I wouldn't mind seeing some requirements on how citizenship is granted. Crackdown on non-citizens crossing our borders strictly to give birth to anchor babies and further crackdowns on the birth tourism schemes. Frankly, I wouldn't mind having some requirement to where all US born people have to pass the same test naturalized citizens do before they are afforded full citizenship. At least make it to where all citizens have to know basic civics and the history of the land in which they reside.
IMO, the biggest problem we are facing right now regarding citizenship is that there is a segment in our population who are doing everything they can to erase the distinctions between a US Citizen and a non-citizen. The most obvious example is the push by some on the left to grant non-citizens voting privileges.
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CU Guru [1967]
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Re: Should citizenship be an earned thing, like Rome's once was?
Jan 22, 2022, 10:07 AM
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I have always thought that some kind of required National service would be beneficial to all US citizens. It would allow citizens that normally would not have any real interactions with one another to be place together with a certain goal in mind. It would be a way to see if people have a certain talent for a trade that they may not have never even considered, and they would have interaction with people they may never have met. You may not not look at a very wealthy person and assume they are just privileged and thus wealthy, and find out they are very driven, determined and a hard worker. You may meet a very poor person and after you get to know them you may find out there status may be due to family situations,bad luck,tragedy and trauma in their life is the reason they are where they are in life.
I was raised middle class, both parents at home, Dad worked as a design draftsman Mom was a stay at home mom. Most of my friends were kids from my neighborhood who were in a similar situation. In school these were my friends. I knew people of different economic status and different family situations than my own, but rarely did I have interaction with them outside of school.
High school sports changed all of that. There is something about running wind sprints and tackling drills with a group of people to forget about how different all our life’s outside of this team can be. We had a goal of being the best football team we could be and I don’t know about everyone else, but I really didn’t care if the guy lined up beside me during what we called Oklahoma drill was from a very wealthy or an extremely poor family…..he was simply my teammate and I depended on him and he depended on me. I made life long friends through sports, that I probably never would have ever even known.
Some type of National service I think would alleviate a lot of the us against them mindset that we as humans tend to self segregate ourselves into. We will always notice differences in one another, but something about having a certain task or goal where we are depending on one another would do a lot in showing how we aren’t as different from one another as we may have previously thought.
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