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All-In [26902]
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T3: Race and Right/Libertarian discussion
May 18, 2022, 10:29 AM
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This got buried in the other thread, but I think it's a good point to dig into further. You were mystified how I could fall into the Right/Libertarian quad based on my position with race and hiring. Curious as to why you think that.
Also happen to open this up to any other position I hold that you don't think reflects my chart.
(also, for whatever it's worth, this thread is a show of respect to you and your views.)
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: T3: Race and Right/Libertarian discussion
May 18, 2022, 10:42 AM
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All-In [26902]
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Well, my argument was on the assumption that we were talking
May 18, 2022, 10:51 AM
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about private sector hiring. I don't know what the OP was talking about contextually, but this is how I was responding. Whatever the private sector wants to consider in hiring is its businesses. So, that would track with a hands-off approach, since government would not be dictating anything.
Also, I stated quite a few times this would only be applicable if the candidate qualifications were equal, or equal enough, where you wouldn't be hiring a less qualified person because of race. This wouldn't be sacrificing business need for social good, although again, it's whatever private companies consider important in hiring criteria.
Overall, I believe companies considering the value of social good is a positive thing. You can justify it as a good business decision based on the value diversity of opinion brings (e.g. more efficient solutioning, ideas for opening up new markets, etc). You can justify it as giving underrepresented people a foothold in industries as a long-term investment in bringing new opportunity to people groups and helping to break cycles of poverty that burden government resources. Or, you can just say it's a good thing to do. None of this is contrary to being a libertarian.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Well, my argument was on the assumption that we were talking
May 18, 2022, 11:10 AM
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All-In [26902]
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I don't think they have to be exactly equal, but certainly
May 18, 2022, 11:15 AM
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not to where one person was clearly unqualified. An example might be, I would prefer to hire an underrepresented race from a local state school, as opposed to a white Harvard grad, if both candidates were suitable for the position.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I don't think they have to be exactly equal, but certainly
May 18, 2022, 11:28 AM
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All-In [26902]
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If I'm hiring, I don't really care about what's fair.
May 18, 2022, 11:33 AM
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I care about what's best for my business, and other business goals. And, in this example, I don't put much stock into where you got your degree, especially an ivy league school. So in this case, I see value in better race representation, and little value in a harvard degree, so the better candidate in my eyes would be the non-Harvard one.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: If I'm hiring, I don't really care about what's fair.
May 18, 2022, 11:39 AM
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All-In [26902]
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We're talking about hiring the best person.
May 18, 2022, 11:47 AM
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Again, this is assuming the candidates are both well suited for the job. I personally don't put much stock in where a person got their degree. I put even less stock in the value of an Ivy League education as it relates to actual, on the job skills. So, assuming both candidates would do an exceptional job, I would prefer to hire the underrepresented candidate, than the candidate from an ivy league school. If the candidate from an ivy league school came from an underprivileged background, that would certainly be something to consider. It would be a balance test of the good from increased racial representation, versus giving an opportunity to a person coming from a disadvantaged background. I'm not sure where I would fall on that though probably on race just because a white guy with a Harvard degree is probably not going to have a hard time finding a job elsewhere; he'll do fine.
EDIT: In either case, I have hired the best person for the job.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: We're talking about hiring the best person.
May 18, 2022, 12:25 PM
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All-In [26902]
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You're debating semantics.
May 18, 2022, 12:30 PM
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Well-suited and "best" are interchangeable, and it should have been assumed they are the same in this discussion, especially since I made it clear as such that I was talking about "equal" or "about equal" candidates.
Furthermore, your stock in transcripts and degrees is just as much of a personal opinion as mine about neither being a reliable value of job-specific skills, or about the value of social good in race representation.
Finally, I don't understand your comment about providing welfare or some other intervention. The idea that a white guy from Harvard not having trouble in the job market is objectively true. Seems like you would hire him in a second.
Ultimately, I think you're confused about the definition of right/libertarian. See my replies below.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: You're debating semantics.
May 18, 2022, 12:38 PM
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All-In [26902]
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That's why it's a hypothetical.
May 18, 2022, 12:43 PM
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In the other thread, I literally even said, "How often does this actually happen?"
Again, you're ascribing your assumptions to what I'm saying, rather than what I'm actually saying. But it doesn't matter at this point. We've deviated far from the original point about how I can hold these beliefs and consider myself a libertarian, which ultimately comes down to the definition of libertarian, in which I believe you are incorrect in your assumption, and even in the spirit of your assumption, I believe I have demonstrated how my beliefs would still be well within a purely profit-motivated hiring process.
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All-In [26902]
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But I appreciate the dialogue here. It was solid.***
May 18, 2022, 12:49 PM
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110%er [5648]
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Re: We're talking about hiring the best person.
May 18, 2022, 12:26 PM
[ in reply to We're talking about hiring the best person. ] |
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So, at what point does the virtuous nature of your racial hiring stop? Do you hire up to 14% African American, X% Asian, Y% White or what?
So, if your workforce is 75% black, in a scenario of "equal quals" between a white guy and an AA guy, you will take the AA even though you current workforce is already 75% AAs?
So, if you kid is applying for a job, you are okay with your kid being told - sorry dude you are white and I just feel like hiring a black person is the better choice?
Really?
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All-In [26902]
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Some industries may have more firmed up percentages.
May 18, 2022, 12:32 PM
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But since I'm working in a limited scope hypothetical, I don't have any. I think that would mostly be a subjective call as well, and relative to the industry.
And yes, if my kid and another kid from another race were basically identical in job-related skills, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Hopefully my kid wouldn't either as we would have many conversations in his life about the value of social justice and what can be done in the private sector to make our society more equitable and prosperous.
EDIT: And, I don't know what field or positions you worked in to accumulate your massive wealth and success, but no professional hiring manager would ever say that.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Some industries may have more firmed up percentages.
May 18, 2022, 12:41 PM
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All-In [26902]
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No, but that's not a debate I feel like would be productive
May 18, 2022, 12:44 PM
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so I'll decline on engaging any further.
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110%er [7084]
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Re: Can I play (not for long tho, got meth to cook)
May 18, 2022, 10:49 PM
[ in reply to Some industries may have more firmed up percentages. ] |
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Hello Mr. Jimmy, hope that this isn't too off-topic, but the hiring based on 'racial diversity' in the private sector has many different facets, based on the 'political sensitivity' of the company itself.
The following types of companies tend to do back-flips to hire racial minorities (which is code for blacks) to prove that they are 'on board' with Fed. Gov't politically driven policies.
(1) B-to-B Companies which are fearful of regulatory action (EPA coming after them).
(2) B-to-B Companies which do a lot of business (or endeavor to do a lot of business) with the Fed. Gov't.
(3) B-t0-B Companies which have critical customers which do business with those in the (1) and/or (2) categories.
(4) Companies which do business directly with consumers (restaurant chains, entertainment businesses, etc.)
These companies also know that 'racial minorities' is code for blacks. Democrat Admins tend to want to see the racial minority (black) quotient being high because this is ipso facto proof (to the 'regulators') that company's behavior can be used to demonstrate that the Fed. Gov't is 'looking out' for an important voting block. Repub Admins do not typically promote this practice as vigorously, but they sure as heck don't try to undo it.
Somewhat unfortunately, in the higher science / engineering companies, the 'racial minority (blacks)' are most frequently put into the non-critical jobs, whereas the 'racial minority (Indians / APACs)' go into critical jobs as frequently (maybe moreso) than American whites.
(These views on the 'higher science / technology companies' aren't based formal studies with real data, but rather are simply based on personal anecdote from frequent exposure to numerous large and well-regarded companies. These companies all pretty much do this.)
The good news is that the blacks get some pretty good jobs in the (1), (2), and (3) category companies, and sometimes they get promoted to non-technical jobs such as HR Managers and (in the rising number of companies that recognize that it is good business to actively pander to the Fed. Gov't). These companies often also create 'diversity' or 'inclusivity' departments which are commonly staffed by black managers. These are good jobs for blacks, and there isn't any 'gun' put to the heads of the executive management of the (1), (2), and (3) category companies. They are agnostic and simply do what they think is good for business; they are realists with respect to the impact (favorable or unfavorable) which the Fed. Gov't has on them.
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All-In [26902]
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I oppose any government incentives or
May 18, 2022, 11:07 PM
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punishments based on the hiring practices of private sector employers.
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All-In [42023]
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No
May 18, 2022, 1:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: T3: Race and Right/Libertarian discussion ] |
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For one, I didn't justify anything. I explained intent. I also know this is basically case-by-case. My response was more because the OP tried to draw a connection to the race issue in the shooting, which there is none.
I believe this was a question on that little quadrant test and I did say the most qualified people should get the nod.
For something like a Supreme Court nomination, it makes more sense than say, hiring a new CEO or something. I can get some semblance of an attempt of government representation. I don't agree with doing it just to do it; the person should be qualified as well.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: No
May 18, 2022, 1:12 PM
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All-In [42023]
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Re: No
May 18, 2022, 1:42 PM
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So can’t we just admit Biden was doing this purely for votes?
I will certainly agree this is likely.
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All-In [46801]
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Because if you don't align to what he thinks is a true
May 18, 2022, 12:02 PM
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conservative, then you're obviously the liberal enemy
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All-In [26902]
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ffs. we were having a good conversation here.
May 18, 2022, 12:04 PM
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go snake a drain, hippie. 
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-In [26902]
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Your premises are wrong on both points here.
May 18, 2022, 12:23 PM
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One, I never asserted it was good practice to hire on race alone. Not once. In fact I repeatedly said this was assuming the candidates were equally qualified for the job.
Secondly, even if I did assert that, it wouldn't be an unlibertarian position. Libertarians are concerned with interference by government into the affairs of the private sector. If a business owner wanted to hire the worst people for the position as possible, that would be his right.
I think what you are confused about is considering empathy and social good a Leftwing idea. That is incorrect. It may be more expressed by the left, but the traits are apolitical except if/when involving government coercion.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Your premises are wrong on both points here.
May 18, 2022, 12:32 PM
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All-In [26902]
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In every post here I've talked about hiring the best
May 18, 2022, 12:34 PM
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person for the job. You keep assuming that I'm not. But that's your assumption, not my words.
EDIT: Secondly, and maybe you missed this, I already made the case how better racial representation can be beneficial for your bottom line, if you're looking at exclusively profit-motivated reasons in hiring.
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All-In [26902]
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Follow-up: Your definition of libertarian is wrong.
May 18, 2022, 12:40 PM
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Made in good faith, but wrong. Libertarianism is the belief that individuals should be free to pursue their own destinies with only limited, constitutionally defined interference from government. A socialist could easily be a libertarian if in his hypothetical construct all individuals entered into a resource-shared community voluntarily.
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110%er [5648]
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Re: Your premises are wrong on both points here.
May 18, 2022, 12:32 PM
[ in reply to Your premises are wrong on both points here. ] |
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Social good is defined by your echo chamber.
Diversity causes wars between nations and within nations. Can you think of any examples?
Diversity of skin color or birthplace making a business "better" is completely false. There is no real data to support such a theory, but millions of dead people would say (if they weren't dead) diversity causes division and division causes conflict.
Diversity in thought is intuitively a good thing for many businesses and for many positions/organizations within an enterprise. This has zero to do with skin color. If you believe diversity in skin color is a must to be successful, you believe a hoax.
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All-In [46801]
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We're not even hiding the racism anymore***
May 18, 2022, 12:35 PM
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All-In [26902]
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Welcome back.***
May 18, 2022, 12:36 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-In [26902]
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That's not what Coach is referring to in NC's reply.
May 18, 2022, 12:46 PM
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He's referring to Neal's claim that racial diversity is bad, brings discord, and reading between the lines, we'd all be better off without it.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: That's not what Coach is referring to in Neal's reply.
May 18, 2022, 12:50 PM
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All-In [26902]
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Yeah sorry. NC Tiger, not Neal. Fixed in reply.
May 18, 2022, 12:54 PM
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But no, NC specifically said, "diversity causes war." You can draw whatever parallel you want from that, but as Coach said, he's not even hiding the sausage.
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All-In [26902]
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