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Asst Coach [743]
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What are the biggest mistakes we have made with the basketball program
Apr 17, 2022, 4:44 AM
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And what can we do to keep from repeating them.
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All-TigerNet [11466]
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Re: What are the biggest mistakes we have made with the basketball program
Apr 17, 2022, 6:14 AM
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Keeping Coach Brownell for so long. Also, should have added more to the program in the mid 90s rather than Neff deciding to do it now...
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110%er [7191]
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Re: What are the biggest mistakes we have made with the basketball program
Apr 17, 2022, 6:52 AM
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I think it's hard to say considering you can't blame the players, or the assistant coaches for the Head
Coaches failure to produce a better product.
Maybe you could put some of the blame on the Athletic Dept. for not improving the facilities earlier, or giving the staff more money for recruiting, but then that is not the Head Coaches problem.
Maybe you could blame Brad for not hiring better assistants, but I do not know enough about his staff to speak on that issue. Or maybe if he had reached out to some former players to help recruit a certain prospect is again something I don't know.
Thing is Brad is now going on season 13 and unless he has a rabbit up his sleeve, look for more of the same next season.
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CU Medallion [52815]
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Re: What are the biggest mistakes we have made with the basketball program
Apr 17, 2022, 7:22 AM
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Wrong bored Moran
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110%er [7191]
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Re: What are the biggest mistakes we have made with the basketball program
Apr 17, 2022, 8:32 AM
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Hardly anybody uses the proper board now a days.
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110%er [7969]
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Re: What are the biggest mistakes we have made with the basketball program
Apr 17, 2022, 8:06 AM
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Hiring Tates Locke who almost got us the death penalty.
Allowing folks to post basketball stuff on the football board
Allowing trolls who have never set foot on campus to drive the basketball discussion from their mom’s basement in Columbia
Allowing the basketball program to be terrible for so long due to apathy and lack of investment
Not educating fans on what/why investment is important to players
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Starter [390]
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Re: What are the biggest mistakes we have made with the basketball program
Apr 17, 2022, 8:10 AM
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Frank Howard put basketball so far behind the rest of the ACC . Clemson is still trying to gain ground.
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Heisman Winner [139900]
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I disagree…
Apr 17, 2022, 8:21 AM
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But I’d like to hear why you say that.
Message was edited by: Francis Marion®
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All-In [27371]
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The program would be in better shape IF
Apr 17, 2022, 9:05 AM
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There was a way to get the student body really involved in the game.
You will never convince me that a loud and excited crowd doesn’t affect the teams play.
It appears to me that coach Brownell is getting better players in the last few years to join the program.
I’m anxious to see what next season is like. Kids like Hall and Tyson and several of the newcomers are fun to watch.
Let’s work on creating a championship feeling in Littlejohn every night
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110%er [6153]
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If we want to go back to the genesis then he’s correct.
Apr 17, 2022, 3:10 PM
[ in reply to I disagree… ] |
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Frank Howard hired Press Maravich, our first genuine basketball coach and then let him leave over a small salary dispute to become an assistant (actually head coach in waiting) to EverettbCase at NC State where they were very serious about hoops.
Frank should have fought to hold on to Press. And as AD, he should have given basketball more emphasis.
But he was the head football coach and he had a football centric focus.
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Heisman Winner [139900]
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Littlejohn was built under Howard’s watch…
Apr 17, 2022, 8:36 PM
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costing over $60 million in today’s dollars. Death Valley was only 25 years old at the time and was built for under 2.5 million.
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110%er [6153]
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Too little, too late.
Apr 17, 2022, 9:11 PM
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Frank had already been AD and head football coach for over a quarter century by then.
Don’t get me wrong. I loved Frank Howard. He was a consummate Clemson man and in his prime he was a fine football coach who had Clemson competing in all the biggest bowls.
But, he wasn’t a great AD for the entire athletics program.
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Heisman Winner [139900]
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So what happened between 1962 and 1968?
Apr 18, 2022, 7:40 AM
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1962: Maravich left. Howard should have done more to keep him, even though he was 55-96 at Clemson.
1968: Littlejohn opens. Too little to late, even though it cost 24 times what Death Valley cost.
He let a coach who never finished over .500 go and built a 60 million dollar basketball facility. Sounds like he should get a plaque from the basketball team.
Press’ Career Accomplishments:
NCAA National Championships: 0
NCAA Tournament Appearances: 1 (1965)
NCAA Tournament Sweet Sixteen: 1 (1965)
NCAA Tournament Final Four: 0
NIT Championships: 0
NIT Appearances: 1 (1970)
ACC Tournament Champion: 1 (1965)
I'm not saying that Howard was the greatest AD, or that he didn't prefer football over other sports, but the blame I see him getting for basketball's shortcomings, while convenient, is not all warranted. The data doesn't support it.
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110%er [6153]
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Re: So what happened between 1962 and 1968?
Apr 18, 2022, 8:52 AM
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He gave nothing to Press. Including the approximately $2,000 raise he asked for.
Press couldn’t recruit players with Fike Field House. Nobody could. It was a no-brainer that he would leave.
Everett Case knew what Press brought to the table. So did John Wooden who was quoted as saying, “ Press Maravich has the best basketball mind in the country.”
The Littlejohn project was too little, too late and was actually more of a BOT reaction to what had happened in Columbia when they build Carolina Coliseum than a Frank Howard project. Still, when it was finished LJ was a scaled back cheapo facility compared to Carolina Coliseum.
They also brought in Frank McGuire. Howard got Bobby Roberts.
Serious basketball intentions and support down there. Half hearted gestures at Clemson.
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Heisman Winner [139900]
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Who did give Press what he needed?
Apr 18, 2022, 9:05 AM
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His career wasn't great, he was 232-277. He had losing records at Clemson, LSU, and App State. He had a winning record at NC State, but left after 2 years because Pete didn't meet the ACC's academic requirements to get in. He would have been gone if he had stayed at Clemson for the same reason. Regardless, if we are blaming basketball's current state on Frank Howard letting a coach go who was 55-96 at Clemson 60 years ago, then we have bigger problems to work on.
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110%er [6153]
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I don’t disagree that a Press Maravich’s career was not
Apr 18, 2022, 9:32 AM
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HOF by any means. But that is all hindsight.
When he was at Clemson we had the potential for a establishing a solid program. Everett Case saw the potential in Press and snapped him up. Why did he do that if Press was a mediocre coach? The answer is that Press was a great coach struggling in poor circumstances.
As it turned out, the ACC prevented Pete from playing and Press was determined to coach Pete, so he left NC State for a place that would let Pete play. At the time, LSU was not a much better situation than Clemson, but they made it possible for Pete to play and for Press to coach him.
The crux of my argument is that when we had the chance to hold on to Press *and* we didn’t know his son would be a non-qualifier, we just kissed him goodbye and let NC State take him.
There is little doubt in my mind that if Pete had qualified to play in the ACC (and he should have by national standards) NC State would have been huge with Press and Pete together along with the support and resources there.
I don’t know that the same could have been said for a Clemson. Even if they retain Press, and Pete wears a Clemson uniform, we were still a long way from providing the support to sign the talent that NC State put on the floor every year.
Pete by himself did not make much of a difference for LSU and therefore Press was not a big success there either.
These are all big “what-if’s” ... but, we know that we really didn’t try to make any of this happen when the opportunity was there. I think not even trying was Frank Howard’s biggest contribution to the present state of Clemson hoops.
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Heisman Winner [139900]
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We are definitely dealing in big "what-ifs".***
Apr 18, 2022, 10:00 AM
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CU Guru [1722]
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Re: If we want to go back to the genesis then he’s correct.
Apr 18, 2022, 10:56 AM
[ in reply to If we want to go back to the genesis then he’s correct. ] |
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Exactly. Letting Maravich leave with his gym rat kid and go to Raleigh was the beginning of this situation. The early years of acc were very telling in bball emphasis.
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Heisman Winner [139900]
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Dear lord.***
Apr 18, 2022, 11:02 AM
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Asst Coach [743]
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110%er [6153]
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No, the ACC buried football for the entire conference.
Apr 17, 2022, 3:13 PM
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Frank Howard was just a casualty of the overall tragedy.
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Letterman [270]
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Re: What are the biggest mistakes we have made with the basketball program
Apr 17, 2022, 9:31 AM
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Not guarding Tate George…
We take care of business there, and it’s off to play a Duke team we had already beaten. From there, who knows.
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CU Guru [1018]
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Re: What are the biggest mistakes we have made with the basketball program
Apr 17, 2022, 9:37 PM
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Not guarding the inbounds pass. Elden Campbell standing there flatfooted.
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110%er [5255]
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Re: What are the biggest mistakes we have made with the basketball program
Apr 17, 2022, 9:53 PM
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i have always said this. If he only had contested the pass and maybe made it just a little more difficult of a throw .....
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CU Medallion [58406]
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A disturbing lack of commitment and concern for the
Apr 17, 2022, 9:46 AM
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basketball program in general, as evidenced by failing to commit financial resources at a level similar to other similar schools with more successful basketball programs. Sticking with a coach for 12 years who has not so much as sniffed a conference championship and only has one top 25 finish over that span is a pathetic example of that shocking lack of commitment.
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Orange Blooded [2336]
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Re: A disturbing lack of commitment and concern for the
Apr 17, 2022, 9:50 AM
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I’ll I’ve learned from this board is we don’t pay our coaches enough and we don’t support our program. The support issue is stupid. Most fans support the program. As for the pay, I don’t know about you, I’ve got to earn my pay before I get a decent raise.
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110%er [7969]
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Re: A disturbing lack of commitment and concern for the
Apr 17, 2022, 11:57 AM
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Your lack of understanding is breathtaking and the reason we are average
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110%er [5512]
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Re: A disturbing lack of commitment and concern for the
Apr 17, 2022, 12:36 PM
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Accepting mediocrity is why we are average. You are part of that problem.
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110%er [5482]
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Re: A disturbing lack of commitment and concern for the
Apr 17, 2022, 9:18 PM
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Actually we are below average = sub-mediocrity.
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110%er [7969]
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Re: A disturbing lack of commitment and concern for the
Apr 18, 2022, 7:32 AM
[ in reply to Re: A disturbing lack of commitment and concern for the ] |
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Accepting mediocrity is why we are average. You are part of that problem.
Seems you want to eat lobster but only have money for a hamburger. The fact that i understand the cost of both and am willing to enjoy the hamburger since that is all i am willing to pay has nothing to do with the state of the program.
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110%er [9683]
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Hamburgers are better than lobster.
Apr 18, 2022, 7:37 AM
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Just FYI.
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110%er [5512]
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Re: A disturbing lack of commitment and concern for the
Apr 18, 2022, 10:14 AM
[ in reply to Re: A disturbing lack of commitment and concern for the ] |
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Accepting mediocrity is why we are average. You are part of that problem. Seems you want to eat lobster but only have money for a hamburger. The fact that i understand the cost of both and am willing to enjoy the hamburger since that is all i am willing to pay has nothing to do with the state of the program.
Ok, let's use your analogy. The problem is that you (and JK's other supporters) want to pay lobster prices for a Junior Whopper.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: A disturbing lack of commitment and concern for the
Apr 18, 2022, 11:07 AM
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Wut? We aren't paying for lobster here...
We are normally around the 14-13 (of 15 in the acc ) spot for funding a basketball. We think that 68M for a basketball add-on is a "lot" when rivals are over 160M and mid-majors are going at it on our level.
Folks harp about salary and being mediocre, but really we are just buying the basic burger. That is paying for the "full price" for a basic burger but then forgoing the fries, asking for a cup of water, and not getting a shake. Calorie take is still lower than a cheaper burger but with a more expensive combo and a frozen treat.
If you only have $5, you either get the "technically not meat" burger with soggy fries and a Pepsi... or get just a basic burger and follow it up with luke-warm water. You don't get super-sized hand-cut fries with a free-range, Angus pattie with bacon.
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110%er [5512]
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Re: A disturbing lack of commitment and concern for the
Apr 18, 2022, 11:50 AM
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The constant gripe here is "we don't spend enough, pay Brad and his assistants more money".
That's like paying more for the same food. We don't need to do that...we need to buy different food.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: What are the biggest mistakes we have made with the basketball program
Apr 18, 2022, 8:54 AM
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Football.
From 1912 through 1956 we did not have a full time dedicated basketball coach. Press was the first. A few school already had their national championship or final four apprentices... and a dedicated coach for decades. Prior to Press, it was a mechanism to pad the salary of the assistant football coach.
I am fine being all-in on football.
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All-TigerNet [11466]
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Re: What are the biggest mistakes we have made with the basketball program
Apr 18, 2022, 9:21 AM
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Football.
From 1912 through 1956 we did not have a full time dedicated basketball coach. Press was the first. A few school already had their national championship or final four apprentices... and a dedicated coach for decades. Prior to Press, it was a mechanism to pad the salary of the assistant football coach.
I am fine being all-in on football.
So what is your opinion of a new AD who is going to put more emphasis in basketball? He is q basketball guy...
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110%er [6825]
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Re: What are the biggest mistakes we have made with the basketball program
Apr 18, 2022, 10:17 AM
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And and I am sure that Dan Radakovich was doubling down on his support mens track and field too.
No AD is going to say they don't support or don't place an emphasis on a sport. They just quietly nix a program.
I am a basketball guy. But Clemson is a football quasi-small school in a smaller state. Limited resources. Football first because there is only but so many resources. Neff can win the Basketball Nattie but if football goes a Carolina 6-6 for the next 10 years, he would be considered a failure and might be out as well.
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Orange Blooded [3742]
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Yep. We went all in on the biggest revenue generator: FB
Apr 18, 2022, 10:07 AM
[ in reply to Re: What are the biggest mistakes we have made with the basketball program ] |
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and it worked. The down side of that is that generally other sports will suffer. Only a select group of schools are highly profitable via basketball, but even those programs dwarf the profits we can generate in football. Right now Michigan is about the only program that can make big money in both sports.
However, I think we should strive to get to at least Bama/ tOSU basketball programs level of success. Those schools aren't that great either, but their basketball programs are in much better shape than ours.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Yep. We went all in on the biggest revenue generator: FB
Apr 18, 2022, 10:31 AM
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Yep, we have been overly successful being strategic with our warchest.
Counter example of trying to compete in everything would be Maryland.
"Both" basketball/football schools are going to be those large-state mega-centralist schools. Either the only major program in a state (31-0hio State as an example), or be a large major state's main school (see Texas) but even then, they are going to be good, but not NC-level great in both. Why? Because you have programs like Clemson or a Villanova that is all-in on one project. Florida is the only ones that did both (briefly) but that was a bit of luck with a HoF-quasi-dirty coach while both rivals and major programs were in decline/rebuilding so the normal obstacles were clear (see Bama/FSU/Miami in football, Kentucky in basketball). Even then, being in a Fla, Texas, Cali etc is not enough. It *helps* but does not guarantee success - lol- Texas.
I would not toss Bama in there for beint both. I wanted us to consider nate oats but didn't think he would come south. I was wrong but Bama isn't a basketball school yet. They are having good years right now but are not a program. As it is their first conference champ in 30 years.
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CU Medallion [65321]
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Accepting the mindset that we will only ever be second rate
Apr 18, 2022, 10:23 AM
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in basketball is our mistake. Period. Because, all other mistakes in facilities, coaches salaries, etc spring from that one mindset mistake. Until we change that mindset, it will continue to be a self fulfilling prophesy.
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110%er [6096]
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not tearing down littlejohn during 1st renovation***
Apr 18, 2022, 10:28 AM
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